We near the end of the 2010 Hana Daetoo MSL. Flash, free, Calm, and Jaedong remain in the scene, and tonight Free will see if he can take on the ultimate weapon. I feel like there's not much need to write too much about Flash now, since everybody and his mother knows about how great Flash is, though I will take a slight moment to highlight his recent TvP statistics. Since the start of 2010, Flash has gone 22-2 against Protoss. Even though it's Flash, I'm still amazed by this feat. The only two games lost have been to Movie in the OSL finals and the infamous game to M18M. However, since that loss to M18M Flash has gone 10-0, taking out the likes of Shuttle, BeSt, Kal, Jaehoon (okay maybe this one doesn't count), free, and most recently, Pure. Most notably, Pure was demolished in the OSL semifinals, being unable to even take a game off of Flash. In his splendid post-game analysis using graphs, heyoka showed to us just how scary Flash's macro was: Flash was consistently outmacroing Pure (who was macroing quite well, in fact), breaking past the 20 supply deficit that Terran has compared to Protoss in the early- and mid-game.
However, Pure isn't considered the most notable for his macro, and here's where we take a look at free. free, Woongjin Stars' best Protoss, is known for conjuring up huge armies, and is touted as one of the few players these days that can keep up with Flash's macro. Of course, the same was said about BeSt last year before the MSL semifinals, and BeSt got 3-0ed by Flash in a pretty resounding manner. So before I talk more about free, let's look at the relevant statistics. free is 13-9 against Terrans in 2010, which is (almost) a solid 60%. Granted, a lot of the losses came at the hands of Terrans like Flash, Sea, and fantasy, but one sore spot that really sticks out is free's 1-2 loss to Fancy in the OSL offline preliminaries. free's PvT isn't the best (he's definitely way more notable for massing large balls of archons in PvZ), but he's defeated many Terrans on the road to the semifinals in pretty tough and exciting matches, beating Sea 2-1 in the Ro16 and coming back from an 0-2 deficit against HiyA in the quarterfinals. Unfortunately, Flash is way above anything Sea and HiyA can bring, so free's going to have quite the uphill battle. Head-to-head with Flash he's 2-7, and while Grobyc would be happy with that record becoming anything from 5-7 to 5-9 tonight, I honestly cannot see that happening. People say that Flash is unstoppable right now yet somebody will stop him soon, but I really can't see it being free tonight.
Either way, hoping for some good games, and a good series.
I definitely do not see free winning this, so the question becomes whether or not the score will be 3-0 or 3-1. I'm going to tend toward the 3-0 side. True, free could cheese and Triathlon is such a weird map, but Flash has shown to be invincible when it comes to deflecting oddities in matches. If free does take one game, it'll be on Triathlon, and even then he has to worry about Flash's razor-sharp timing attack. After the debacle that was the NATE MSL finals, destiny demands a rematch between Flash and Jaedong. I don't believe free is going to be the one to try an challenge that.
On May 13 2010 12:11 flamewheel91 wrote: So much Flash hate in this thread already... :S I think tonight's going to be a night where I wish I had modhammer capabilities.
On May 13 2010 12:11 flamewheel91 wrote: So much Flash hate in this thread already... :S I think tonight's going to be a night where I wish I had modhammer capabilities.
Flash haters are funny. Anyway, I don't think this is anything yet, wait till SuperArc gets going.
all the people who predict free to win, remind me of the poker players who call an all in with 72o against AA. because they "had a feeling". and when they hit their lucky trips they bitch on you and brag how good their "instincts" are.
I think the most probable scenario for a close series would be that flash messes up the first game on match point and free brings out his A++Game (while flash plays a bit too passive in one game) to push through an eventual BO advantage on one of the other three maps (cheese wont work against flash i think), just to loose ace on match point (i dont think flash will loose two games on the same map). But i think thats the best possible scenario for free. Most likely flash will roll him 3-1 or even 3-0. (something similar could be said about the other semifinal matchup, so i guess we will get our rematch)
On May 13 2010 12:11 flamewheel91 wrote: So much Flash hate in this thread already... :S I think tonight's going to be a night where I wish I had modhammer capabilities.
I think I'm putting this picture in the OP as a warning
Free could win..but he should take 1 game atleast. Anybody remember that game on colloseum where free was clowning flash, then decided to go carriers and flash sniped the pylon and dragged the game out and won? Free has a good shot, I mean hes more likely to beat Flash than other good protoss lol. Free...the only player more likely to beat Jaedong and Flash than some decent- good protoss.
On May 13 2010 13:11 mog87 wrote: Free could win..but he should take 1 game atleast. Anybody remember that game on colloseum where free was clowning flash, then decided to go carriers and flash sniped the pylon and dragged the game out and won? Free has a good shot, I mean hes more likely to beat Flash than other good protoss lol. Free...the only player more likely to beat Jaedong and Flash than some decent- good protoss.
Kal has a better shot against Flash imo, will make for a good finals if he can make it past effort.
On May 13 2010 13:11 mog87 wrote: Free could win..but he should take 1 game atleast. Anybody remember that game on colloseum where free was clowning flash, then decided to go carriers and flash sniped the pylon and dragged the game out and won? Free has a good shot, I mean hes more likely to beat Flash than other good protoss lol. Free...the only player more likely to beat Jaedong and Flash than some decent- good protoss.
That was pretty epic. The commentators were like "WAAAHH PYLONAAAA!!" I think Flash is more polished now than then though.
On May 13 2010 13:11 mog87 wrote: Free could win..but he should take 1 game atleast. Anybody remember that game on colloseum where free was clowning flash, then decided to go carriers and flash sniped the pylon and dragged the game out and won? Free has a good shot, I mean hes more likely to beat Flash than other good protoss lol. Free...the only player more likely to beat Jaedong and Flash than some decent- good protoss.
I guess you are taking about Andromeda game.
Free was ahead, he had so much resources he built like 10 stargates but only one pylon to power them. Flash moved out to kill free before the carriers are build and he freaking sniped that pylon. All the stargates were unpowered and Free pretty much lost right after that. He gged with around 10000 min in the bank, lol
I certainly don't remember him clowining Flash though. But what I remember is Flash just destroying Free a couple of weeks ago. Free didn't even noticed what had hit him.
If we have a free vs. calm MSL final, I will be disappointed. Not that much though. I like free and calm but I want to have a Jaedong vs. Flash final. A real one. Ahem...
Jaedong would rip Free to pieces in a final. Flash would rip Calm to pieces in a final. Honestly, unless you're a big fan of one-sided finals or you think Calm vs Free would be more entertaining than Flash vs Jaedong, then you better root for both Flash and Jaedong to win.
On May 13 2010 13:39 Djabanete wrote: Jaedong would rip Free to pieces in a final. Flash would rip Calm to pieces in a final. Honestly, unless you're a big fan of one-sided finals or you think Calm vs Free would be more entertaining than Flash vs Jaedong, then you better root for both Flash and Jaedong to win.
Ironically, the fact that he's actually winning all of his games and playing a lot... haven't seen him called child labor terran in a while. Only when he was losing, haha.
On May 13 2010 13:11 mog87 wrote: Free could win..but he should take 1 game atleast. Anybody remember that game on colloseum where free was clowning flash, then decided to go carriers and flash sniped the pylon and dragged the game out and won? Free has a good shot, I mean hes more likely to beat Flash than other good protoss lol. Free...the only player more likely to beat Jaedong and Flash than some decent- good protoss.
On May 13 2010 14:28 Severedevil wrote: I'm torn between wanting to see Free destroy Flash and wanting to see Jaedong destroy Flash.
I guess it depends on whether Free can man up to an epic PvZ finals, or would be devoured like Kal was last MSL semis.
Free seems to give us good games against Jaedong. Kal on the other hand just crumbles when he faces JD. I'd take him over any zerg out there, except Jaedong.
it's going to be 3-2, one way or the other. The maps are slightly Protoss favoured, and I can see free take 1 on match point, triathlon, and then anything could happen.
Surprised at the amount of people giving Free any chance what so ever. This is Flash, this is a best of 5, and it's not Jaedong. He's going to win and it's probably going 3-0
Free is awesome but it's hard to root against flash since 1. we can get a JD vs Flash rematch and 2. Free vs Jaedong would be so ugly they would have to put an 18+ rating on it.
If it were almost anyone else of relevance in the scene today, I'd probably be rooting for Free. I have a ton of respect for the guy and his playstyle and I think it's a travesty that his lacking PvP costed him any shot at a title in his prime.
But, I can't root against my boy Flash unless he's playing Ra or Reach. Have it, Mr. Weapon.
man, flash lost to stork in the ever osl 2009. so there are at leat 3 losses to protoss. btw, after their osl match flash got his revenge over stork in the proleague.
On May 13 2010 18:11 zmeqt wrote: I doubt Flash-Free will be much different from Flash-Pure,but we'll see.
If he has any sense in him he won't try to 12nex like Pure did.
Well 12nex worked every game vs flash for pure so why not. I bet Flash won't proxyrax that much since he's the better player.
Free on the other hand might see the need to 12nex to get ahead.
Actually imo the only reason flash did let pure get away with it was because he was the 'better' player. I don't know that free would want to use builds that rely on such generosity.
On May 13 2010 18:11 zmeqt wrote: I doubt Flash-Free will be much different from Flash-Pure,but we'll see.
If he has any sense in him he won't try to 12nex like Pure did.
Well 12nex worked every game vs flash for pure so why not. I bet Flash won't proxyrax that much since he's the better player.
Free on the other hand might see the need to 12nex to get ahead.
Actually imo the only reason flash did let pure get away with it was because he was the 'better' player. I don't know that free would want to use builds that rely on such generosity.
When did Flash allow Pure to get away with 12nex? o.O
I'd like free to at least give Flash a run for his money. As long as it's not another 3 games of watching Flash completely outplay his opponent at every step, I'll be happy.
On May 13 2010 18:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: free says in a prematch interview that he practiced exclusively with MVP, and prepared specific, map specific abusive builds. Flash going down >O
On May 13 2010 18:11 zmeqt wrote: I doubt Flash-Free will be much different from Flash-Pure,but we'll see.
If he has any sense in him he won't try to 12nex like Pure did.
Well 12nex worked every game vs flash for pure so why not. I bet Flash won't proxyrax that much since he's the better player.
Free on the other hand might see the need to 12nex to get ahead.
Actually imo the only reason flash did let pure get away with it was because he was the 'better' player. I don't know that free would want to use builds that rely on such generosity.
When did Flash allow Pure to get away with 12nex? o.O
I want Flash to win for him to play Jaedong in the final and get another gold. It'd actually be pretty cool to see free go through, but only if he ended up winning the final.
On May 13 2010 18:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: free says in a prematch interview that he practiced exclusively with MVP, and prepared specific, map specific abusive builds. Flash going down >O
Ofc you can train your builds with worse players. Think of Nony.. he even trained against Ai sometimes. But still i doubt flash will fall against some crazy build.
On May 13 2010 18:39 OneOther wrote: i really dont know who to root for on one hand i want protoss to win but on the other i love watching greatness unfold
Flash intelligently building his depot to the right of his CC to scout for in-base proxy. Sending an early SCV out, either for a proxy scout or for a forward rax.
On May 13 2010 18:41 QuothTheRaven wrote: The amount of 12nexing Protosses are doing in PvT these days is ridiculous. It seems like 12nex is the "standard" opening now.
What can I say, it's a great opening lol, I do it when ever I can.
Would these morons _please_ stop getting the first expansion this early... Unfuckingbelievable how all Toss players manage to give themselves a disadvantage against Flash...
flash sets his units up at free's min only and then pushes up. mines up by the goons, and micros the hell out of his units. free losing a handful of goons and forced to retreat to his choke by the gateways.
Can someone please restream this with low quality and bitrate? Bangladesh internet so terrible that i can watch 2 seconds and it buffers 10 seconds so i cant really watch ;_;
Free actually microing really well here and fights off Flash's push.
Shuttle moving with a reaver now toward the nat, but Flash is on top of things and pulls all his SCVs before it does any damage. Reaver ends up killing almost nothing.
free tries a reaver drop in the main, but Flash already has ~6 vultures there to deal with the low HP reaver.
Free goes for a big goon break in the 3rd!!! Flash has to pull all his SCVs, it's going to be close--Flash losing lots of SCVs, doesn't have any tanks left tiehr!!
Flash doing a push toward free's nat, going to siege it from the low ground with 4 tanks. Lots of vultures and mines keeping the goons back. Vultures sneak into the nat and kill a bunch of zealots, but get trapped by goons and taken out.
Nat nexus goes down almost instantly.
Free trying to break Flash. Getting a really strong flank and surround, and speedzealots are finished! Free comes damn close to breaking, but it's just not enough
free did a good job with the shuttle, keeping it in flash's base, forcing flash to keep vults around in case it has something in it. had he had those vults in the front he wouldnt have even had to pull back from the min only temporarily.
Flash's SCV / marine micro on the rush was absolutely incredible, and the forward rax vs. the 12nex was just too much. I'd imagine Flash spent most of his time practicing vs. 12nex also.
Free played a really impressive game after getting set back from that opening, but so did Flash.
On May 13 2010 18:55 cunninglinguists wrote: Flash had a good cheese there, set free back quite a bit. Free's micro during that first big engagement was jaw-dropping though.
On May 13 2010 18:55 cunninglinguists wrote: Flash had a good cheese there, set free back quite a bit. Free's micro during that first big engagement was jaw-dropping though.
I hate this 12Nexus every second game. I don't even feel it did improve the matchup for toss. I think it is way more effective to use like once in a series to gain a massive economic lead and surprise your opponent. Now since every terran expect it, what does it really do?
On May 13 2010 18:58 Fx_ wrote: Great macro by winner
It's a live-report thread, no need to worry about spoilers (at least for this match--don't spoil other stuff like proleague / OSL / other MSL matches).
On May 13 2010 19:00 SuperArc wrote: 12nexing on a 2 player map is seriously crazy if you didnt do a gas steal before.
no, it isn't. Protoss players 12 nex ALL THE TIME on match points, and they win more than they lose vs most terrans.
Flash took the calculated risk of forward raxing and that (plus his stellar scv micro) made all the difference.
Keep in mind also that the risk was also diminished by the fact that he put his supply depot to the right of his CC, so there was no risk of in-base proxy.
flash with a bunker rush, forced to cancel until the remaining scvs get there. 4 more scvs get there, flash now with 3 marines. free with 1 zealot (just like last game). bunker goes up, marines in. free looks crushed.
free has no pylon for a shield battery this time, either.
Zealot takes out 1 SCV--down to 3 marines and 4 SCVs. Now 4 marines. Great micro . . . but bunker finishes with a lot of marines in it and Free's in trouble again.
Flash putting down a bunker at his ramp. I don't understand how Free managed to save his nexus . . . but Flash's economy is still better anyways since free lost a ton of probes.
On May 13 2010 19:08 Malinor wrote: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
You are a goddamn SL-Semifinalist, and all you can do is 12Nexus? What the fuck is wrong with all you protosses?
This is a disgrace. If the protoss race is on the shoulders of players like Free, everything is lost.
that's the dilemma. protosses 12nex vs flash because they know they can't beat him on even economic footing, but flash abuses it lol. it's not free's fault
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
On May 13 2010 19:08 Malinor wrote: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
You are a goddamn SL-Semifinalist, and all you can do is 12Nexus? What the fuck is wrong with all you protosses?
This is a disgrace. If the protoss race is on the shoulders of players like Free, everything is lost.
that's the dilemma. protosses 12nex vs flash because they know they can't beat him on even economic footing, but flash abuses it lol. it's not free's fault
This. You either have to 12-nex vs Flash or do some kind of all-in build. Either way Free looks bad if it doesn't work out and gets flamed here
It's absolutely sickening that toss players refuse to just sac the nexus when it's obviously to their advantage to do so, especially when they scout the proxy rax like that.
I mean seriously, there's no other commentary on a match like that necessary. Keep the probes at home unless your ramp is in danger of being broken, maybe make a probe or two from the 2nd nexus, and then punish the Terran for pulling SCVs and making a bunker and marines. -.-
On May 13 2010 19:10 Nytefish wrote: 12 nex is not much different from 12 hatch these days.
12 hatch is the standard opening, and in TvZ it's Terrans who started the econ "cheese" with 1 rax FE, which was at first a greedy build then became the standard.
As for 12 nex, it's up to Protoss to actually defend it consistently -- then it won't be considered cheese anymore.
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
Once upon time another player affected his opponents this way.
I'm not going to say "the word" but we all know who I'm talking about.
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
qft
Really, it just seems he has broken them mentally. You don't need to play as good as Flash to win these games.
This is ridiculous, Flash makes free look like a D+ player It's time for Flash to entertain us, since 3 ports wraith into nuke/lockdown has been done recently, what could Flash do now ?
On May 13 2010 19:12 QibingZero wrote: It's absolutely sickening that toss players refuse to just sac the nexus when it's obviously to their advantage to do so, especially when they scout the proxy rax like that.
I mean seriously, there's no other commentary on a match like that necessary. Keep the probes at home unless your ramp is in danger of being broken, maybe make a probe or two from the 2nd nexus, and then punish the Terran for pulling SCVs and making a bunker and marines. -.-
My thoughts exactly, like Stork vs Fantasy on Destination! It costs terran so much to bunker rush with scvs.
On May 13 2010 19:12 QibingZero wrote: It's absolutely sickening that toss players refuse to just sac the nexus when it's obviously to their advantage to do so, especially when they scout the proxy rax like that.
I mean seriously, there's no other commentary on a match like that necessary. Keep the probes at home unless your ramp is in danger of being broken, maybe make a probe or two from the 2nd nexus, and then punish the Terran for pulling SCVs and making a bunker and marines. -.-
In their mind it's either:
1. Fend off rush with probes+zealots and come out way ahead. 2. Give up nexus and come out even or slightly ahead.
On May 13 2010 19:09 QuothTheRaven wrote: Free looks so devastated.
Indeed. Like every situation where the margins are small as hell, flash seems to come out on the lucky side. For example the first reaver shot in game 1, and the really small things like the zealot getting stuck on the scv by flashs ramp in game 2. Flash is just amazingly good.
Bisu said multiple times its alright to lose the early nex and still be even/ahead, if you keep the extra probes alive. I cant believe free is playing so stubborn
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
This, they're Olympic level players (Pure/Free), so good that the ICCUP ranking system doesn't even apply, and they're doing really dumb shit.
This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
Once upon time another player affected his opponents this way.
I'm not going to say "the word" but we all know who I'm talking about.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
12nex isn't going anywhere. Pulling a ton of probes to defend 12nex when it gets bunkered on the other hand...
On May 13 2010 19:15 darktreb wrote: I still can't believe I just saw a TvP where T only made Marines and Firebats.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
Just because they know how doesn't mean they can do it like Flash though.
Alot of people here seem to overlook the simple fact that Free needs some sort of early game advantage to have a chance vs Flash. If he plays standard, he loses. Free is gambling, because he has no other choice
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
This, they're Olympic level players (Pure/Free), so good that the ICCUP ranking system doesn't even apply, and they're doing really dumb shit.
I think Flash wins as many games from pure intimidation as he does from skill.
On May 13 2010 19:08 Malinor wrote: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
You are a goddamn SL-Semifinalist, and all you can do is 12Nexus? What the fuck is wrong with all you protosses?
This is a disgrace. If the protoss race is on the shoulders of players like Free, everything is lost.
Maybe they found out there's no other way how to play even match with such a great terran Flash is?
I'm just wondering, do you really believe that? I remember so many clever protoss builds to throw terran off their game and players who abused these builds. Gassteal, proxy-gates, gay double-gate dt-rushes, one base reaver, etc.
Nobody is trying anymore, they just go 12Nexus and pray.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
Well, Flash is building a proxy rax in the center of the map--keep that in mind. Without the forward rax free would probably be able to hold easily.
Also Flash is pulling 4 SCVs in addition to his scouting SCV. Pulling that many SCVs for that long probably costs him more than 400 minerals, which puts him behind even if he kills the Nexus. He's come out dramatically ahead in these games because free refused to sacrifice the nexus and lost a ton of probes defending it.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
you forgot that he went forward rax
You don't lose anything by doing forward rax. Anybody can forward rax and if that's not 12 nex, you just continue your build, business as usual.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
you forgot that he went forward rax
You don't lose anything by doing forward rax. Anybody can forward rax and if that's not 12 nex, you just continue your build, business as usual.
actually you do, 2 gate would rape forward rax, and even if the protoss goes one gate, you lose the rax which is an important part of your wall.
Fucking infuriating... After qualifying for the semi-finals, Free said in the interview: "I will show you Protoss' strength." And then all he comes up with is consecutive 12-nex...
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
Flash is just really strong at playing the mental game. Bisu was weak at it, so he dropped games to random scrubs taking huge risks all the time. Jaedong showed that of course you can out-guess Flash, but you still need absolutely top level play to win after that.
On May 13 2010 19:16 Lann555 wrote: Alot of people here seem to overlook the simple fact that Free needs some sort of early game advantage to have a chance vs Flash. If he plays standard, he loses. Free is gambling, because he has no other choice
A lot of people have mentioned this, actually. Though I highly doubt free actually believes this. He was likely extremely confident in defending his 12nex (not surprising since free is a strong micro player) in practice, so he's just doing what works.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
you forgot that he went forward rax
You don't lose anything by doing forward rax. Anybody can forward rax and if that's not 12 nex, you just continue your build, business as usual.
actually you do, 2 gate would rape forward rax, and even if the protoss goes one gate, you lose the rax which is an important part of your wall.
2 gates non proxied, and I guess Flash would just build fact at his wall? His scouting scv makes it really early to his opponent's base.
On May 13 2010 19:16 Lann555 wrote: Alot of people here seem to overlook the simple fact that Free needs some sort of early game advantage to have a chance vs Flash. If he plays standard, he loses. Free is gambling, because he has no other choice
A lot of people have mentioned this, actually. Though I highly doubt free actually believes this. He was likely extremely confident in defending his 12nex (not surprising since free is a strong micro player) in practice, so he's just doing what works.
Too bad for him that his Terran practice partners weren't on Flash's level, eh?
On May 13 2010 19:18 GeLaar wrote: Fucking infuriating... After qualifying for the semi-finals, Free said in the interview: "I will show you Protoss' strength." And then all he comes up with is consecutive 12-nex...
This. Surely these Tosses know that Flash is going to put a forward rax out, and it costs him very little to make marines once he spots the 12 nex. He's got the number of the 12 nex, its time for some 2 gate pressure play from Free, show off more of that goon micro
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
This series is only skewed because Flash guessed twice correctly (on good grounds of course), you can't just always open with proxy rax.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
It seems strange that with a bunker coming up, a massive scv/marine force count at his front, a scouted forward rax, and his nexus in fact incomplete, Free still refuses to cancel, seeing as his 12 nex should probably have paid for itself by that point.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
you forgot that he went forward rax
You don't lose anything by doing forward rax. Anybody can forward rax and if that's not 12 nex, you just continue your build, business as usual.
actually you do, 2 gate would rape forward rax, and even if the protoss goes one gate, you lose the rax which is an important part of your wall.
2 gates non proxied, and I guess Flash would just build fact at his wall? His scouting scv makes it really early to his opponent's base.
Using a factory as a wall? lol and lose all your units that are going to spawn? :p
On May 13 2010 19:18 GeLaar wrote: Fucking infuriating... After qualifying for the semi-finals, Free said in the interview: "I will show you Protoss' strength." And then all he comes up with is consecutive 12-nex...
He meant "I'll show you that 12 Nex is actually safe, propelling are race forever ahead of terran!" Well, he might have been wrong.
On May 13 2010 19:10 Nytefish wrote: 12 nex is not much different from 12 hatch these days.
What? 12nex is NOT standard PvT.
it's used >50% of the time at least on a lot of maps by progamers; what's your definition of standard?
Wtf? are we talking about Protoss vs Flash or Protoss vs Terran? It is certainly not used >50% in PvTs
hmm, I feel like there definitely have been periods of time on FS and Match Point where P 12 nexed that frequently. It's probably exaggerated in my mind though.
What is with all the complaining? Everyone wanted a Flash vs Jaedong finals anyway. So Flash winning shouldn't really be all that upsetting. Yeah we don't get entertaining games but who was really giving Free a chance anyway? Even if they both played standard I'm pretty sure Flash would still just roll him and it wouldn't be a good game anyway.
On May 13 2010 19:16 Lann555 wrote: Alot of people here seem to overlook the simple fact that Free needs some sort of early game advantage to have a chance vs Flash. If he plays standard, he loses. Free is gambling, because he has no other choice
Free is not losing because he needs an early game advantage against Flash.
Free is losing because he thinks he needs an early game advantage against Flash.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
Haha people seriously think Flash would 14CC in TvP? This isn't TvZ ... 14CC loses to everything P does except 12 Nex, regardless of the prior situation.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
Once upon time another player affected his opponents this way.
I'm not going to say "the word" but we all know who I'm talking about.
I'm not as skilled as you guys in bw history and such. But what does Flash have to do to become "the word" as you put it? It seems to me he is really dominating most players, and is probably a favorite to win any match except maybe against Jaedong, were they are almost even. Jaedong hasn't been that over the top good this spring but Flash has been consistent for a long time and might win the double... Is it the fact that he isn't overwhelmingly favorite against all players and he hasn't won a double?
Wow. Free could not have tried harder to pick worse BO MU's On the two 2 player maps he 12nex, yeah whatever. On the 4 player map, the best map to 12nex... he lets Flash 15cc.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
Maybe you are right after all... Time will say. Anyway, the little baller is damn lucky, he bo wins every game.
Seems like a more standard game this time. Lets see if Free's decision to 12-next was justified. If he can compete in standard 1-base play, he probably fucked up the last two games.
On May 13 2010 19:25 flamewheel91 wrote: Mind games, Flash. Mind games. Also what the Engineering Bay from Flash?
It's the build he used in winner's league finals: the late gas means late factory, means extra minerals, means he can sneak in the ebay to be safe from cheese. 1rax CC ebay factory.
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
Once upon time another player affected his opponents this way.
I'm not going to say "the word" but we all know who I'm talking about.
I'm not as skilled as you guys in bw history and such. But what does Flash have to do to become "the word" as you put it? It seems to me he is really dominating most players, and is probably a favorite to win any match except maybe Jaedong, where they are almost even. Jaedong hasn't that over the top good this spring but Flash has been consistent for a long time and might win the double... Is it the fact that he isn't overwhelmingly favorite against all players and he hasn't won a double?
Time has inflated our perception of the past bonjwas. Objectively, no one has ever dominated as hard as Flash is right now. As good as Oov was even he never even made both semis two seasons in a row (and Flash is about to make both finals). Jaedong is arguably the only thing left.
Two goons attacking bunker, but two, now three, SCVs are repairing it faster than goons can damage it. Tank has arrived! Three goons now. More SCVs pulled. SIEGE MODE. Goons running now. Citadel finishes, and Robotics is hidden in a corner of free's base.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
Maybe you are right after all... Time will say. Anyway, the little baller is damn lucky, he bo wins every game.
On May 13 2010 19:24 SuperJongMan wrote: Wow. Free could not have tried harder to pick worse BO MU's On the two 2 player maps he 12nex, yeah whatever. On the 4 player map, the best map to 12nex... he lets Flash 15cc.
Fuck.. imma die from blood pressure.
I don't understand why you say this. Free 12nexed the past 2 games and was hard countered by forward raxes.
His option this game would've been to go blind 12nex again, which I'm sure everyone would've called him stupid for.
Or play more conservatively and be safe against another forward rax.
He chose the latter, as I'm sure Flash mindfucked him into doing. Why are you posting shit like Free is 'letting' Flash 1raxCC? It's not like he has maphacks and knows exactly what build Flash is doing. Free has to react to Flash in this series, and unfortunately for him Flash predicted it perfectly, but implying that he's making a mistake for unluckily playing the wrong counter is just ignorant.
On May 13 2010 19:09 Itachii wrote: Its not just about Flash being better than everyone else, these guys seem to have some kind of mental block when they face him gg
yeah I completely agree. They never manage to ignore that they are playing a freaking monster and it affects their play
Once upon time another player affected his opponents this way.
I'm not going to say "the word" but we all know who I'm talking about.
I'm not as skilled as you guys in bw history and such. But what does Flash have to do to become "the word" as you put it? It seems to me he is really dominating most players, and is probably a favorite to win any match except maybe Jaedong, where they are almost even. Jaedong hasn't that over the top good this spring but Flash has been consistent for a long time and might win the double... Is it the fact that he isn't overwhelmingly favorite against all players and he hasn't won a double?
Time has inflated our perception of the past bonjwas. Objectively, no one has ever dominated as hard as Flash is right now. As good as Oov was even he never even made both semis two seasons in a row (and Flash is about to make both finals). Jaedong is arguably the only thing left.
Does the flashbonjwa discussion differ from korea and tl?
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
Maybe you are right after all... Time will say. Anyway, the little baller is damn lucky, he bo wins every game.
Yep, that's pure luck.
Miond game is mind game, but you still need some luck. Mind game and bad luck, and you lose anyway. You can predict things because you are smarter, you can't be sure 100%. Mind game is betting, and although on the long term, it's just skill, being 100% accurate on one serie involves a part of luck.
flash sieges under 9 oclock and then backs off shortly after. free bringing his goons down the ramp with the arb and takes heavy losses. the rest retreat back up the ramp into 9.
Flash decides to push straight towards free's natural with a big mech army, 2 vultures and a tank get stasis'd, leg upgrade done and zealots push the army back.Protoss reinforcements arrive.
another stasis by 9 oclock, but flash cleans up free's forces. free stasis on flash's tanks on the 9 ramp, stopping a potential push inside. flash comes back towards the nat again.
free chasing flash down with everything he's got. free backing off again, fighting a losing battle.
1 of 2 arbiters gets killed by a goliath. The other one is extremely low on health. Free is contained to his nat now. Vultures raping more small groups of dragoons.
Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
On May 13 2010 19:36 QibingZero wrote: Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
On May 13 2010 19:36 QibingZero wrote: Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
Yea, because other Terrans can rape 12-next like Flash can -_-
free just looking absolutely devastated. Can't break tank line at nat. GG from free! 3-0 Flash... Now, let's go back and look at the first few pages of comments...
On May 13 2010 19:36 QibingZero wrote: Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
nobody counters 12 nexus as aggressively, consistently, or as well as he does. especially against what we saw as a 2 zealot and shield battery opening.
it was beautiful mind games to then 14 cc in the following game, ensuring he scared free off of 12 nexusing one more time.
On May 13 2010 19:36 QibingZero wrote: Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
nobody counters 12 nexus as aggressively, consistently, or as well as he does. especially against what we saw as a 2 zealot and shield battery opening.
it was beautiful mind games to then 14 cc in the following game, ensuring he scared free off of 12 nexusing one more time.
I agree with your points. One minor correction: the last game was 1rax CC before gas, not 14CC
i cant even imagine how frustrating and mentally challenging it must be to train for weeks and just focus on this match and get rolled over so badly. wowT_t
That was one of the most one sided series i've ever seen. I came in rooting for flash, but at the end i was just hoping for Free to do anything positive.
On May 13 2010 19:36 QibingZero wrote: Yawn. What a completely uninteresting series. Flash didn't even have to do anything to win.... at least vs Pure he showed he was Flash. Any Terran could have won this. =/
Yea, because other Terrans can rape 12-next like Flash can -_-
When the Protoss plays badly and pulls masses of probes to try to defend, yes they can. Sure, pull some probes to defend if it's a half-assed bunkering (1-2 SCVs). However, 5+ means the Terran is serious and you should suck it up.
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
Maybe you are right after all... Time will say. Anyway, the little baller is damn lucky, he bo wins every game.
Yep, that's pure luck.
Miond game is mind game, but you still need some luck. Mind game and bad luck, and you lose anyway. You can predict things because you are smarter, you can't be sure 100%. Mind game is betting, and although on the long term, it's just skill, being 100% accurate on one serie involves a part of luck.
Betting, if you are smarter is quite profitable in the long term, and it always helps Flash (statistically at least, he does come way ahead from mind games more often than not).
See poker for comparison (although it should be a light-hearted comparison!)
Flash is on a 13 game winning streak now against protoss, 26-2 in 2010. Even though I dont like free any more than Flash, I couldnt enjoy this series. It's just not fun anymore when you know who's going to win.
On May 13 2010 19:41 revy wrote: Remember in November when Flash said his vP was lacking and that he was working on it? 26-2 vs P since end of December.
Please. Flash will still say that in the winners interview. He did after beating Pure, at least.
I have a feeling when Flash says a matchup of his is lacking, it means he lost 2 games out of 50 practicing.
This was exactly like Flash vs Best. Completely outclassed and dominated in the mind game from start to finish, without so much as a double take to who we all knew would win.
Flash is now two Bo5 wins away from being crowned the undisputed 5th bonjwa. I don't think even hardcore JD fans could deny it if Flash takes both leagues this time.
On May 13 2010 19:44 Hinanawi wrote: Flash is now two Bo5 wins away from being crowned the undisputed 5th bonjwa. I don't think even hardcore JD fans could deny it if Flash takes both leagues this time.
We won't deny it. Flash will.
Both Flash and Jaedong stated several times that they dont want to be bonjwa. Why are fans going against their wishes?
On May 13 2010 19:42 Lann555 wrote: Next protoss to face flash in a BO will just cheese every game :p
god I hope so. this is getting demoralizing and i'm not even playing
Ye, I hope Flash goes on a Luxury-esque slump after winning both OSL/MSL. Let the other kids reign for a while before an epic comeback. Would at least be interesting to watch
On May 13 2010 19:41 De4ngus wrote: Is everyone besides Flash and Jaedong playing SC2 Beta or some shit?
This. The competition in BW is bad nowdays. Only Flash and JD are capable of playing good games (ok Hiya...) now. I don't think it's just that they are so far ahead it's the others who are lacking. This was the most boring series I ever saw in a SL.
On May 13 2010 19:42 Lann555 wrote: Next protoss to face flash in a BO will just cheese every game :p
god I hope so. this is getting demoralizing and i'm not even playing
Ye, I hope Flash goes on a Luxury-esque slump after winning both OSL/MSL. Let the other kids reign for a while before an epic comeback. Would at least be interesting to watch
Flash has already gone through his "slump" and this is his comeback? It's interesting watching him, but it makes hyping/predicting... meh.
On May 13 2010 19:44 Hinanawi wrote: Flash is now two Bo5 wins away from being crowned the undisputed 5th bonjwa. I don't think even hardcore JD fans could deny it if Flash takes both leagues this time.
We won't deny it. Flash will.
Both Flash and Jaedong stated several times that they dont want to be bonjwa. Why are fans going against their wishes?
tell us again about how movie and effort will challenge flash's dominance
On May 13 2010 19:44 Hinanawi wrote: Flash is now two Bo5 wins away from being crowned the undisputed 5th bonjwa. I don't think even hardcore JD fans could deny it if Flash takes both leagues this time.
It's not JD fans denying so don't start that BS. Some of Flash's own fans have been denying it too. I'm a JD fan and I think he's been Bonjwa for months.
If you're going to 12nex why not at the back expo on triathlon or on the 4 player map. Seriously what was he doing in practice to think this is the way to go.
Can anyone tell me WHY Flash is so good at this game? I honestly can't wrap my head around how he is so much better than everyone else right now, 10 years into the competitive life of this game.
On May 13 2010 19:42 Lann555 wrote: Next protoss to face flash in a BO will just cheese every game :p
god I hope so. this is getting demoralizing and i'm not even playing
Ye, I hope Flash goes on a Luxury-esque slump after winning both OSL/MSL. Let the other kids reign for a while before an epic comeback. Would at least be interesting to watch
Flash has already gone through his "slump" and this is his comeback? It's interesting watching him, but it makes hyping/predicting... meh.
Well, he still won like 65% of games in his 'slump'. He just didnt win Starleagues for a while. I want to see him totally tank for a while
On May 13 2010 19:41 De4ngus wrote: Is everyone besides Flash and Jaedong playing SC2 Beta or some shit?
This. The competition in BW is bad nowdays. Only Flash and JD are capable of playing good games (ok Hiya...) now. I don't think it's just that they are so far ahead it's the others who are lacking. This was the most boring series I ever saw in a SL.
That's a really bad statement. Against Flash, sure there aren't many that can put up a challenge, but all the other top progamers do play well and provide good games (as long as its not against flash). Proleague isn't any less interesting this season.
I hope it's Effort, it doesn't matter if it's Kal or Effort, they will get crushed either way. At least with Effort he can macro really good.
Haha, you must be joking. Effort would be competative in a BO5 vs go.go. Kal has shown that he can keep up with Flash for a long time and create awesome games
On May 13 2010 19:47 Severedevil wrote: Bloody hell, another arbiter rush. And free got an early robo for obs after spotting a rax FE? What exactly does he need to detect?
Rax FE Ebay sounds like an invitation for either a 1-base all-in rush, or a 1 gate double expand, to me.
I also so thought that, if you see an obvious rax FE why not just double expand. 2base arbs instead? wtf?
On May 13 2010 19:41 De4ngus wrote: Is everyone besides Flash and Jaedong playing SC2 Beta or some shit?
This. The competition in BW is bad nowdays. Only Flash and JD are capable of playing good games (ok Hiya...) now. I don't think it's just that they are so far ahead it's the others who are lacking. This was the most boring series I ever saw in a SL.
That's a really bad statement. Against Flash, sure there aren't many that can put up a challenge, but all the other top progamers do play well and provide good games (as long as its not against flash). Proleague isn't any less interesting this season.
Yeah... because Free and Movie etc can really take over after Bisu and Stork right?
On May 13 2010 19:45 Vasoline73 wrote: Pretty sure Jaedong is going to get rolled in the finals. Never felt that way before.. not even last season...
From the prefinals hype last year, most people (TLers and progamers alike) were predicting Flash to curbstomp. Of course, let's not go into the details of what happened that day, but just sayin'...
"Yeah okay, Flash is hopeless against the Protoss dragons, but his TvT and TvZ are really really good. If he can avoid running into a dragon, he'll go far in individual leagues"
Now...hell, I don't even know how to rank Flash's matchups. Which one is he best at? Which one is he worst at?
On May 13 2010 19:45 Vasoline73 wrote: Pretty sure Jaedong is going to get rolled in the finals. Never felt that way before.. not even last season...
From the prefinals hype last year, most people (TLers and progamers alike) were predicting Flash to curbstomp. Of course, let's not go into the details of what happened that day, but just sayin'...
No, I agree that most people thought JD was going to lose, but I was pretty much in the "well it's still a Bo5 with Jaedong" camp and thought it was 50/50...
This time though I think Flash is just going to win. Would be totally surprising if he lost, but hey you never know with Jaedong. You're right.
On May 13 2010 19:45 Vasoline73 wrote: Pretty sure Jaedong is going to get rolled in the finals. Never felt that way before.. not even last season...
From the prefinals hype last year, most people (TLers and progamers alike) were predicting Flash to curbstomp. Of course, let's not go into the details of what happened that day, but just sayin'...
Yeah, last time they met it was actually after Flash had basically destroyed 5 zergs in a row in brutal fashion (kinda like he did vs Protoss this time). The only downside for Jaedong this time is that he has less study-material this time and Flash hasn't shown his vZ in a while. Who knows what he has come up with in the meantime
You're crazy if you think Flash is going to win both leagues easily this year. Not only is playing two finals back to back, his opponents have a huuuuuge benefit of known who they are going to play in the finals before Flash does.
On May 13 2010 19:41 De4ngus wrote: Is everyone besides Flash and Jaedong playing SC2 Beta or some shit?
This. The competition in BW is bad nowdays. Only Flash and JD are capable of playing good games (ok Hiya...) now. I don't think it's just that they are so far ahead it's the others who are lacking. This was the most boring series I ever saw in a SL.
That's a really bad statement. Against Flash, sure there aren't many that can put up a challenge, but all the other top progamers do play well and provide good games (as long as its not against flash). Proleague isn't any less interesting this season.
Yeah... because Free and Movie etc can really take over after Bisu and Stork right?
If you are talking exclusively about tosses, Kal and free are doing just fine this season. Again, if you're talking about games not against flash (and dong to an extent), they are not really 1 sided and not worse than previous seasons. tosses this season aren't doing as great (mainly vs terrans, you can thank flash for that to a point), but saying that all the other progamers are lacking and can't play well these days is pretty silly.
On May 13 2010 19:52 Hinanawi wrote: Remember when we were like
"Yeah okay, Flash is hopeless against the Protoss dragons, but his TvT and TvZ are really really good. If he can avoid running into a dragon, he'll go far in individual leagues"
Now...hell, I don't even know how to rank Flash's matchups. Which one is he best at? Which one is he worst at?
On May 13 2010 19:45 Vasoline73 wrote: Pretty sure Jaedong is going to get rolled in the finals. Never felt that way before.. not even last season...
From the prefinals hype last year, most people (TLers and progamers alike) were predicting Flash to curbstomp. Of course, let's not go into the details of what happened that day, but just sayin'...
Yeah, last time they met it was actually after Flash had basically destroyed 5 zergs in a row in brutal fashion (kinda like he did vs Protoss this time). The only downside for Jaedong this time is that he has less study-material this time and Flash hasn't shown his vZ in a while. Who knows what he has come up with in the meantime
He didn't destroy Calm, it was competitive. He did have some holes in his TvZ during that time like his weakness in match point, not expanding after a failed 2-base all-in. This time though Flash has cleaned up his TvZ mistakes.
On May 13 2010 19:41 De4ngus wrote: Is everyone besides Flash and Jaedong playing SC2 Beta or some shit?
This. The competition in BW is bad nowdays. Only Flash and JD are capable of playing good games (ok Hiya...) now. I don't think it's just that they are so far ahead it's the others who are lacking. This was the most boring series I ever saw in a SL.
That's a really bad statement. Against Flash, sure there aren't many that can put up a challenge, but all the other top progamers do play well and provide good games (as long as its not against flash). Proleague isn't any less interesting this season.
Yeah... because Free and Movie etc can really take over after Bisu and Stork right?
If you are talking exclusively about tosses, Kal and free are doing just fine this season. Again, if you're talking about games not against flash (and dong to an extent), they are not really 1 sided and not worse than previous seasons. tosses this season aren't doing as great (mainly vs terrans, you can thank flash for that to a point), but saying that all the other progamers are lacking and can't play well these days is pretty silly.
Yeah they are doing fine.. but you have to be blind as a bat if you don't see that they are far inferiour to the older s-class players.
On May 13 2010 19:53 Lazerbeems wrote: You're crazy if you think Flash is going to win both leagues easily this year. Not only is playing two finals back to back, his opponents have a huuuuuge benefit of known who they are going to play in the finals before Flash does.
Uh. I don't think so. I think EVERY person on earth knew that Flash was going to be in the finals. But that didn't stop him anywhere.
It feels so good to have always been a Flash fan right now.
If you had told me in July of 2009 that this would happen ... I mean in March 2008 I was ready to say this was going to happen for sure, but then it took 20 months for him to make another final. 20 long and dark months of underachieving.
On May 13 2010 19:45 Vasoline73 wrote: Pretty sure Jaedong is going to get rolled in the finals. Never felt that way before.. not even last season...
From the prefinals hype last year, most people (TLers and progamers alike) were predicting Flash to curbstomp. Of course, let's not go into the details of what happened that day, but just sayin'...
Yeah, last time they met it was actually after Flash had basically destroyed 5 zergs in a row in brutal fashion (kinda like he did vs Protoss this time). The only downside for Jaedong this time is that he has less study-material this time and Flash hasn't shown his vZ in a while. Who knows what he has come up with in the meantime
He didn't destroy Calm, it was competitive. He still have some holes in his TvZ during that time like his weakness in match point, not expanding after a failed 2-base all-in. This time though Flash has cleaned up his TvZ mistakes.
Well, if Flash takes both leagues and gets crowned "Winner of Broodwar" it could signal an opportune time to transition to StarCraft 2...maybe?
Anyway, good on Flash for the victories today, I hate Free so them being one-sided matches is fine by me. Looking forward to the finals, should be much more interesting (certainly compared to today's series).
On May 13 2010 19:55 radadaundandan wrote: In fact Pure played way better than Free imo.
Free showed some sexy stuff in the first game, but otherwise, you are right, Pure game were not such an imba rape. Free's second and last game were a complete disaster.
Hmm I just realized, this LR thread most likely has more pages/comments about things not related to LRing (i.e. talking about how dominant Flash is)... Mlah.
That was pathetic. Free just doesn't have the confidence and mental fortitude required to beat Flash, let alone the skill. It's obvious from his body language that he already gave up any hopes of winning after game 2, game 3 was just a formality. That's really not the mentality of a winner.
I think this is one of the biggest factors that makes Jaedong such a strong contender for beating Flash. He seems to be just about the only player who isn't intimidated at the prospect of playing Flash in a Bo5 (in fact, he prefers it).
On May 13 2010 19:47 Severedevil wrote: Bloody hell, another arbiter rush. And free got an early robo for obs after spotting a rax FE? What exactly does he need to detect?
Rax FE Ebay sounds like an invitation for either a 1-base all-in rush, or a 1 gate double expand, to me.
I also so thought that, if you see an obvious rax FE why not just double expand. 2base arbs instead? wtf?
I'm personally baffled. If Terran can't attack, you expand. That's the Protoss way.
...or you can tech to some gimmicky shit and have way less units than the Terran, I guess. That's also an option.
When watching this game, I became very frustrated, because it looked like vultures were hideously overpowered (able to rape groups of dragoons with just a tank or two as backup) and that Protoss had no maneuverability advantage over Terran at all because they would die if they split their forces. Then I realized that Free just had a tiny-ass army, and allowed Flash to claim map control via mines before Flash had tanks to back them up, so he got rolled.
On May 13 2010 20:01 arbiter_md wrote: I see more chances for Jaedong to lose vs Calm, than vs Flash. Remember, he never lost a BO5 to Flash. Jaedong is just immune in BO5's
Except against fOrGG :D
Like everyone else, I'd rather see a rematch of last year's MSL than watching Calm slowly lose, again, to Flash. Atleast we know it's going to be a TvZ.. which is my kind of game.
On May 13 2010 20:01 arbiter_md wrote: I see more chances for Jaedong to lose vs Calm, than vs Flash. Remember, he never lost a BO5 to Flash. Jaedong is just immune in BO5's
Um this statement doesn't really make sense? First off, if he's immune how can he lose, regardless? He's also not 100% vulnerable--he's dropped Bo5s to three people, TheRock, Calm, and fOrGG (in an 0-3 fashion). Secondly... dang it's Flash. Look at how Flash is playing. Then look at how Calm is playing. Do you really think Jaedong is going to lose to Calm over Flash now?
On May 13 2010 19:15 Biff The Understudy wrote: This serie marks the end of the 12 nexus reign. Flash proves the world that with good micro, terran doesn't need to make any concession (normal 11 rax into 4 rines) to his normal build order to lolrape 12 nexus early game.
/12 nex, we won't regret you.
no.....
You just have to respond properly.
Free tried twice, and twice Flash pwned him with the exact same shit. Flash early game style seems to be a hard counter to 12 nex.
well I mean, Flash's forward rax is working so effectively because he knows Protoss players will 12 Nex to start with an economic advantage. You make it seem like forward rax doesn't hurt the Terran but if Protoss decides to zealot harass or early goon pressure the forward rax makes a huge difference. there's no sim city and there is no wall.
Then protoss are fucking dumb because Flash is playing all the time with forward rax theses days. If that was hard countered by anything except 12 nex, people would have done it.
its a risk u have to take vs flash and he recently started doing it a lot
Maybe you are right after all... Time will say. Anyway, the little baller is damn lucky, he bo wins every game.
Yep, that's pure luck.
Miond game is mind game, but you still need some luck. Mind game and bad luck, and you lose anyway. You can predict things because you are smarter, you can't be sure 100%. Mind game is betting, and although on the long term, it's just skill, being 100% accurate on one serie involves a part of luck.
Betting, if you are smarter is quite profitable in the long term, and it always helps Flash (statistically at least, he does come way ahead from mind games more often than not).
See poker for comparison (although it should be a light-hearted comparison!)
We completely agree. Flash dominated Free in terms of mind game. And the smartest wins.
What I was saying is thta to be 100% accurate all time and to hard counter your opponent three times in a row, you still need a bit of luck.
On May 13 2010 20:03 Ghardo wrote: when i read these kind of stories (this thread) i really wish bisu were back in shape
where is the chosen one to bring balance to the force?
The Sith will just have to reign for a while longer :S Even though Ma Jae Yoon is the sith lord, according to "Heir Apparent." So theoretically Jaedong is the Sith apprentice?
I confused myself now. Also you should post once more to get 1337 posts lulz.
God Young Ho does it again. So now he has the all time best vP ELO as well, beat his overall ELO for the 9th? time and is also in both finals... If he takes both I'm gonna bake a cake with his name on it and post here, just another trophy.
you cant beat flash with such low confidence in urself. u need extreme confidence . much like bisu , flaash. or even movie i bet would have way higher chance then free.
The good thing about a Flash-JD final is: If JD wins, we have another season worshiping JD and a few more months where at least someone is challenging Flash, and waiting for the moment when Flash finally beats JD in a Bo5. If Flash wins, JD will become so fucking angry, he will probably stop sleeping and eating for several months to prepare the next Bo5 against Flash, and then release his anger.
On May 13 2010 20:18 Malinor wrote: The good thing about a Flash-JD final is: If JD wins, we have another season worshiping JD and a few more months where at least someone is challenging Flash, and waiting for the moment when Flash finally beats JD in a Bo5. If Flash wins, JD will become so fucking angry, he will probably stop sleeping and eating for several months to prepare the next Bo5 against Flash, and then release his anger.
This man is correct. Angry Jaedong always is cause for a good match to come, but last time Angry Jaedong appeared Wild BaBy shut him down :S Though I still believe, Jaedong.
Flash is beyond insane, he just walks right over his opponents like they weren't even there. When was the last time in a Box he even looked challenged? Vs Zero in the quaterfinals last season? And of course the finals vs jaedong.
I don't get how he can be sooo far ahead of everyone else. I mean even excluding flash broodwar is played at a higher level than ever before. Both the terrans and tosses are doing just fine vs muta micro that people could just dream of 3 years ago, just as an example. Free just came victorious out of a bo5 with the second best tvp player in the scene (and by extension ever) and Flash just ripped him apart. I don't understand how he can perform even such a conceptually simple task as marine/scv rushing _better_ than everyone else. Not to mention how he always manages to streamline his builds perfectly to counter his opponent - map hack doesn't even begin to describe it. He always seem to 'guess' gate count perfectly to the point where his third is safe, but still earlier than any other terran would pull off. He knows when to allin with low scv count, he knows when to camp and split the map, he knows when to stop camping and tornado and he know when to just let the opponent mine out. Perfect decisions, recently coupled with close to perfect micro as well - Flash truly is the Ultimate Weapon. Maybe it's because he is one of the few pros that still truly in his heart finds playing broodwar fun? His interviews have made it sound like he lies awake in bed at night thinking of strategies and in game situations just because he enjoys it. Or maybe he simply is more 'talented' than anyone else ever.
On May 13 2010 18:39 QuothTheRaven wrote: Uh oh, Flash spawning at 7.
I read this as "Flash is pwning at 7", which now that I think of it, should be the new catch phrase in introducing spawning locations when dealing with flash lol.
On May 13 2010 20:01 arbiter_md wrote: I see more chances for Jaedong to lose vs Calm, than vs Flash. Remember, he never lost a BO5 to Flash. Jaedong is just immune in BO5's
Um this statement doesn't really make sense? First off, if he's immune how can he lose, regardless? He's also not 100% vulnerable--he's dropped Bo5s to three people, TheRock, Calm, and fOrGG (in an 0-3 fashion). Secondly... dang it's Flash. Look at how Flash is playing. Then look at how Calm is playing. Do you really think Jaedong is going to lose to Calm over Flash now?
Don't underestimate Calm. He might not have S-class micro-macro, but he is intelligent. He can think of smart tricks that give him small advantages. And this usually works best in zvz, where small advantage is all it takes to win the game.
Just watch his last BO5 vs JD to see how he plays. Or at least used to play.
Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
On May 13 2010 19:56 darktreb wrote: It feels so good to have always been a Flash fan right now.
If you had told me in July of 2009 that this would happen ... I mean in March 2008 I was ready to say this was going to happen for sure, but then it took 20 months for him to make another final. 20 long and dark months of underachieving.
And now this.
Yeah it feels amazing I wanted this to happen back when reach first told us about flash in an interview... like back in late 2007...
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
On May 13 2010 20:12 Kazius wrote: SC3 plot: Admiral Flash takes control of the Terran forces. Protoss and Zerg die. The end.
SC4 plot: Admiral Flash spreads his seed over the world and creates his own race.
...which leads to the destruction of all 3 other races.
new sc3 terran unit: Admiral Flash.
that unit would require that SCVs mine Pocari Sweat instead of minerals. and I'm pretty sure they don't have Pocari Sweat on alien worlds, only in Korea...
On May 13 2010 21:20 Black Gun wrote: has any1 noticed that flash has lost exactly 1 tvp and 1 tvz since last seasons finals?
I didn't think of that. Now that's really impressive considering how many games he has played. Losing one game in between consecutive dual SL finals... uhm..
I think Free went 12 nex two times in a row because he thought he would do a better job than Pure if he gotten away with it. As far as I remember when Flash played Pure, only in game 1 Flash proxy raxed and in the next 2 consecutive games he just let Pure have his 12 nex advantage only to crush him later. Free must have thought that Flash will do the same thing, allow him to 12 nex and then used his own strategies to try and win, but as we saw Flash didn't want none of that .
By the end of game 2 Free realized that Flash won't just let him 12nex and thus played standard and felt into Flash's trap ( OMG IT'S A TARP etc ) who just casually abused the fact that he was ahead 2-0 and also the fact that Free was a nerve wreck after the second bunker rush.
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
On May 13 2010 21:20 Black Gun wrote: has any1 noticed that flash has lost exactly 1 tvp and 1 tvz since last seasons finals?
I didn't think of that. Now that's really impressive considering how many games he has played. Losing one game in between consecutive dual SL finals... uhm..
Try 48-7 (87.3%) since the last MSL finals - in which 5 of his losses are in TvT, where he is the best ever by far. Crazy. And if that's crazy then the consecutive dual SL finals is batshit insane. I'm not even gonna start with his Elo, or his winners league abuse of any and all opposition. To think he's got a couple of years (at the very least) before the average age in which progamers peak in skill... Maybe Blizzard could release a patch to nerf him or something?
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
He's been impressive since his debt and he revolutionized TvP at the age of 15. If that isn't talent I don't know what is.
This isn't the first time Flash has dominated you know. He's been the best terran for a long time.
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
Flash showed this impressive play already in 2008, when he was 15 years old. It's just that he kept losing (only) the most important games for over a year. There was never any question about his talent, only that he repeatedly failed to convert it into Starleague titles. Arguably this was due to a lack of maturity as a player, which he now seems to have developed (and look at the results).
Guys, it's official. TvZ is Flash's WORST matchup. Lol.
All: 297-115 (72.09%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W vT: 103-36 (74.10%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W L W W W W W vZ: 97-40 (70.80%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W L W W W vP: 97-39 (71.32%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W
by 1 game, I know, but still.... somewhat ridiculous.
Flash is the Roger Federer of Starcraft. He's breaking every single record out there. JD is Nadal. Flash just needs to beat JD in a legit battle to shut all the critics up lol (poor Fed)
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
That's just the wrong perspective. It's a combination of talent and hard work - because with all due respect, how many titles did Jaedong, SaviOr, BoxeR or NaDa have at the age of 17? His first win he got by on talent, luck (cheese working out, lucky scouting, etc), and just a good streak for that time, but his game was still far from mature. Just as chess players have child prodigies that manage to surprise grand masters, but none of them can do it consistently without at least a decade of insane amounts of practice to bring their fundamental skills up to par, in BW it takes years to bring your mechanics and instincts to the highest levels. Now, finally, those have caught up with his natural talent - and luck is no longer a factor in his wins.
All: 297-115 (72.09%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W vT: 103-36 (74.10%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W L W W W W W vZ: 97-40 (70.80%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W L W W W vP: 97-39 (71.32%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W
Flash is the Roger Federer of Starcraft. He's breaking every single record out there. JD is Nadal. Flash just needs to beat JD in a legit battle to shut all the critics up lol (poor Fed)
Not really. The main reason for his TvZ winrate being the lowest is because of Jaedong. About 15 of the 40 losses were to JD. On the other hand, there hasn't been a terran or protoss player who can seriously compete with him.
Also, the analogy doesn't work because Jaedong has more starleagues under his name than Flash, whereas Nadal has nowhere as many grand slams as Federer.
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
He's been impressive since his debt and he revolutionized TvP at the age of 15. If that isn't talent I don't know what is.
This isn't the first time Flash has dominated you know. He's been the best terran for a long time.
yep. all this "he plays so boring, just macro 1a2a3a gg" bullshit is ridiculous. This guy had his own build for Katrina. Just because Fantasy (who btw got a lot of help from oov) might be more creative doesn't mean that flash is less talented lol. The best SC player besides JD and bisu I guess and probably the best terran to ever play the game
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
He's been impressive since his debt and he revolutionized TvP at the age of 15. If that isn't talent I don't know what is.
This isn't the first time Flash has dominated you know. He's been the best terran for a long time.
yep. all this "he plays so boring, just macro 1a2a3a gg" bullshit is ridiculous. This guy had his own build for Katrina. Just because Fantasy (who btw got a lot of help from oov) might be more creative doesn't mean that flash is less talented lol. The best SC player besides JD and bisu I guess and probably the best terran to ever play the game
Flash has created far more innovations and builds than Fantasy. He is a far more creative player.
Admittedly, Fantasy's builds are pretty damn flashy.
The Federer analogy is pretty good in the sense of the sheer aura emanating from Flash right now.
When Federer was in his absolute prime, it was as if he was already starting with a one set lead. He was just so good basically every player facing him had already conceded a big advantage. You can clearly see the same thing happening with Free here...they both get into the booth and while Flash KNOWS he will win at least 3-1 basically, Free is probably thinking "....can I really beat Flash?".
Jaedong is similar to Nadal here in that he's probably the only current player who wouldn't be affected by that aura and would go into the match thinking of himself as Flash's equal. That's where the analogy ends mind you.
On May 13 2010 22:18 KristianJS wrote: The Federer analogy is pretty good in the sense of the sheer aura emanating from Flash right now.
When Federer was in his absolute prime, it was as if he was already starting with a one set lead. He was just so good basically every player facing him had already conceded a big advantage. You can clearly see the same thing happening with Free here...they both get into the booth and while Flash KNOWS he will win at least 3-1 basically, Free is probably thinking "....can I really beat Flash?".
Jaedong is similar to Nadal here in that he's probably the only current player who wouldn't be affected by that aura and would go into the match thinking of himself as Flash's equal. That's where the analogy ends mind you.
Though what happens now that Nadal is injured, eh? Also theoretically one can also say that Jaedong is Federer, with the titles, and this is 2008-9 in the tennis world, when Nadal overtakes him for the #1 spot, only to lose it to Jaedong again due to injuries/sucking. And what better spot for an "overtaking" than the MSL finals?
On May 13 2010 22:04 NguN wrote: Dammit. Wanted to catch the last few games of this when I got home from work. Find out it's a 3-0 crushing defeat T_T.
Free I believed in you! Hope Kal doesn't suffer the same fate..
Kal won't survive to meet Flash, Effort is going to eat him.
On May 13 2010 21:48 Wings wrote: Guys, it's official. TvZ is Flash's WORST matchup. Lol.
All: 297-115 (72.09%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W vT: 103-36 (74.10%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W L W W L W W W W W vZ: 97-40 (70.80%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W L W W W vP: 97-39 (71.32%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W W W W W W W
Flash is the Roger Federer of Starcraft. He's breaking every single record out there. JD is Nadal. Flash just needs to beat JD in a legit battle to shut all the critics up lol (poor Fed)
Not really. The main reason for his TvZ winrate being the lowest is because of Jaedong. About 15 of the 40 losses were to JD. On the other hand, there hasn't been a terran or protoss player who can seriously compete with him.
Also, the analogy doesn't work because Jaedong has more starleagues under his name than Flash, whereas Nadal has nowhere as many grand slams as Federer.
It does work in that Nadal is just about the only person in the world who can routinely beat Federer when they are both at their best.
That being said, Nadal likes to lose against nobodies.
Yes blah blah starleague this starleague that. The amount of championships Federer has isnt what gives him that look of invincibility, it's how he crushes everyone he meets besides Nadal.
Given this point in time i'd consider that analogy rather apt.
On May 13 2010 23:30 Lebesgue wrote: So from the LR thread it seems like Free got rolled like a random noob from ICCUP. Crazy given that Free had (and still has) 3rd best Elo...
On May 14 2010 00:02 Gumbo wrote: The only thing that is standing between Flash and his bonjwa title is Jaedong.
You mean God-title. Bonjwa is surpassed in every aspect! I watched when savior dominated, at his peak he got to dual finals once. This is like nothing we've seen before.
On May 13 2010 20:01 arbiter_md wrote: I see more chances for Jaedong to lose vs Calm, than vs Flash. Remember, he never lost a BO5 to Flash. Jaedong is just immune in BO5's
Um this statement doesn't really make sense? First off, if he's immune how can he lose, regardless? He's also not 100% vulnerable--he's dropped Bo5s to three people, TheRock, Calm, and fOrGG (in an 0-3 fashion). Secondly... dang it's Flash. Look at how Flash is playing. Then look at how Calm is playing. Do you really think Jaedong is going to lose to Calm over Flash now?
Don't underestimate Calm. He might not have S-class micro-macro, but he is intelligent. He can think of smart tricks that give him small advantages. And this usually works best in zvz, where small advantage is all it takes to win the game.
Just watch his last BO5 vs JD to see how he plays. Or at least used to play.
Game 3 almost felt like a throwback to NaDa's Tornado Terran days, so nostalgic. I really hope that Effort/JD pull through and we get to see dual TvZ finals.
On May 13 2010 20:54 streamofhonour wrote: Flash dint get here due to talent. He made it here after sheer practice, gaining experience as the overworked KT ace and getting thrown into all sorts of crappy situations for a long time period of nearly 2 years after he cheesed bisu out of osl. So savor it flash, because this is where it all paid off, and show that all the time u were overworked were not in vain
Nope, Flash is more talented than anyone who has ever played the game. You will not become Flash no matter how much you practise. The kid is so smart.
Right. Hes a monster right now and only jaedong can beat him. I must admit that he has to have had practiced so much that our feeble minds can not comprehend it. But talented? I dunno, cause if he was really talented then he wouldnt need such a long time to show us that impressive play..
That's just the wrong perspective. It's a combination of talent and hard work - because with all due respect, how many titles did Jaedong, SaviOr, BoxeR or NaDa have at the age of 17? His first win he got by on talent, luck (cheese working out, lucky scouting, etc), and just a good streak for that time, but his game was still far from mature. Just as chess players have child prodigies that manage to surprise grand masters, but none of them can do it consistently without at least a decade of insane amounts of practice to bring their fundamental skills up to par, in BW it takes years to bring your mechanics and instincts to the highest levels. Now, finally, those have caught up with his natural talent - and luck is no longer a factor in his wins.
ahh yes. i meant to say what u exactly said here. The point is that it took years for him to hone up his mechanics. But correct me if im wrong, didnt flash start out as the youngest progamer on the scene? If that is so, then being the youbgest player to reach 2 starleague finals consecutively would be phenomenal.
I think its more of him being younger last time and not maturing as a player that other players have reached. Now he has found his light, im anticipating the series of him vs jaedong(assuming jaedong makes it to the finals)
On May 14 2010 00:02 Gumbo wrote: The only thing that is standing between Flash and his bonjwa title is Jaedong.
You mean God-title. Bonjwa is surpassed in every aspect! I watched when savior dominated, at his peak he got to dual finals once. This is like nothing we've seen before.
On May 14 2010 00:02 Gumbo wrote: The only thing that is standing between Flash and his bonjwa title is Jaedong.
You mean God-title. Bonjwa is surpassed in every aspect! I watched when savior dominated, at his peak he got to dual finals once. This is like nothing we've seen before.
Isnt it the same thing?
Flash has classified for dual leagues for the second time in a row, something sAviOr never accomplished
just watched all 3 games, result as expected as long as Flash and JD both exist in the same tournament they turn MSL into Mediocre Star League.
cant believe some ppl pre-game posting that Free can actually win. Free wasnt even close on all three games. (game 1 maybe, because Flash held his vultures back)
On May 13 2010 19:24 SuperJongMan wrote: Wow. Free could not have tried harder to pick worse BO MU's On the two 2 player maps he 12nex, yeah whatever. On the 4 player map, the best map to 12nex... he lets Flash 15cc.
Fuck.. imma die from blood pressure.
I don't understand why you say this. Free 12nexed the past 2 games and was hard countered by forward raxes.
His option this game would've been to go blind 12nex again, which I'm sure everyone would've called him stupid for.
Or play more conservatively and be safe against another forward rax.
He chose the latter, as I'm sure Flash mindfucked him into doing. Why are you posting shit like Free is 'letting' Flash 1raxCC? It's not like he has maphacks and knows exactly what build Flash is doing. Free has to react to Flash in this series, and unfortunately for him Flash predicted it perfectly, but implying that he's making a mistake for unluckily playing the wrong counter is just ignorant.
I woulda preferred if he 12nex'd again. It's fighting spirit and the proxy location is so much more obvious than Match Point or Polaris. Unless Flash was actually gonna do BBS, 1 proxy rax scouted isn't so bad. Did my choosing the word letting bother you that much?
He coulda even chosen to scout a bit faster and gone 12 nex. It's fighting spirit, chances of Flash not pulling off a scv/marine rush in time with scouting is pretty decent. This is a common Bo5 pattern too. Free is just inexperienced in such mind games.
I been thugged out since cub scouts. Don't mess with me or I'll stab you in the eye with a lincoln log. I mean,c mon brah, why you posting shit about shit then? That's too much shit.
I LOVE how his games vs. Pure differed from his games vs. Free.
vs. Pure - Flash opened up 14CC to Pure's 12 Nexus and then took a third expansion really, really fast. This was the theme throughout their series. The games lasted around 20 minutes and Flash's micro/macro was victorious in the end. Pure had no chance.
vs. Free - Flash went with a forward rax in both the first games! Free was probably expecting a 14CC into quick expand and then a macro game where he maybe stood a bigger chance against Flash then Pure. But Flash just shut it down! Then with a 2-0 lead, both players start playing standard, Flash runs over Free in the third set. Free is a dangerous opponent, as was shown by the second half of their game on Match Point. Glad Flash pulled through.
Im sure Flash could have won against Pure faster in their games. Maybe he just wanted to make Free feel secure about the 12 nexus strategy and get some easy wins.
On May 14 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Im sure Flash could have won against Pure faster in their games. Maybe he just wanted to make Free feel secure about the 12 nexus strategy and get some easy wins.
On May 23 2009 17:13 Gliche wrote: is there a particular reason why we don't see 12nexus more in proleague/starleagues? it seems the pros outweigh the cons most of the time.
because stork vs flash on katrina in osl finals is what happens when you get a reputation for it.
also, i'm going to reassert ( as an anti-terran racist ) that flash is the worst person in the world, and i hope he loses every game from now on ( except against baby, who is the one person i hate more than him ).
Flash really makes me think that T is imba. Cuz almost all of the best sc players in the world have been T. Damn you flash.. and lol @ all the idiots calling Flash God.
On May 14 2010 08:06 JaedongMidasAction wrote: Flash really makes me think that T is imba. Cuz almost all of the best sc players in the world have been T. Damn you flash.. and lol @ all the idiots calling Flash God.
Jaedong, Savior. More than anything I think you should draw the conclusion that Flash is imbalanced.
On May 14 2010 08:06 JaedongMidasAction wrote: Flash really makes me think that T is imba. Cuz almost all of the best sc players in the world have been T. Damn you flash.. and lol @ all the idiots calling Flash God.
If terran is imbalanced, then it must require godly skills to actually exploit that imbalance. It's not like the entire scene is dominated by terrans. In fact, the likes of Free and Kal would probably be favorites against just about any other terran player besides Flash. If we excluded Flash, I doubt anyone would be complaining about Terran imbalance.
On May 13 2010 20:19 KlaCkoN wrote: He always seem to 'guess' gate count perfectly to the point where his third is safe, but still earlier than any other terran would pull off. He knows when to allin with low scv count, he knows when to camp and split the map, he knows when to stop camping and tornado and he know when to just let the opponent mine out. Perfect decisions, recently coupled with close to perfect micro as well - Flash truly is the Ultimate Weapon. Maybe it's because he is one of the few pros that still truly in his heart finds playing broodwar fun? His interviews have made it sound like he lies awake in bed at night thinking of strategies and in game situations just because he enjoys it. Or maybe he simply is more 'talented' than anyone else ever.
His decision making is what I believe has always separated him from the rest of the field. When he broke onto the scene this is how he won. He had good macro back then and what I would call below average micro at the time, but he still won based on the excellent decisions he always seemed to make. He can analyze the most complex of situations and come to the proper conclusion in a split-second, where we could sit here spending days talking about it and still not come up with the best answer. He knows what to do in every imaginable situation, and there is no glimmer of a second guess or self-doubt in his decisions. Nowadays, he has perfected his decision making to the point where he rarely-if-ever even gets out-built. His macro has been perfected and he has gone from a sub-par (by pro standards) micro'er to the best in the world. This basically multiplies the effects of his perfect decision making because it opens up more avenues that he can successfully pursue (a-la bunker rushes). He is truly the greatest Broodwar player ever.
To sum up the MSL semifinal: Free: lolol, ive made an imaginable comeback and beat hiya, 1 of the best tvp players. Now i think i can take this flash guy, cos ive practised so hard, preparing elaborate strategies to take down this so called terran monster. Flash: brb bunker rush Free: wtf? Flash: im in ur map timing push ur d00dz Free: :'(
On May 14 2010 10:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: The players should admit defeat and give Flash a trophy for winning BW, then request him to switch to Protoss. I want to see what he can do with P.
I would love nothing more than for Flash to dual starleague, and then switch races, hopefully to Z. I want to see an epic Macro zerg again... Sauron for every fukin match. Yes please.
On May 14 2010 10:12 yoshi_yoshi wrote: The players should admit defeat and give Flash a trophy for winning BW, then request him to switch to Protoss. I want to see what he can do with P.
Not mine, forget who posted it first, but it pretty much summed it up: Someone beat the single player of broodwar within a week of it coming out. Ten years later, Flash beat the multiplayer.
I have finally watched the games and what a rape it was. Especially game 2. Free was on the verge of crying there after the firebats in his base. But it was damn hilarious seeing FB chasing drones.
Though I am super happy for Flash I feel a bit sorry for Free. He looked totally mentally broken. I mean, he seemed to be confident and I'm sure he practice a lot only to get rolled by Flash.
On May 14 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: I LOVE how his games vs. Pure differed from his games vs. Free.
vs. Pure - Flash opened up 14CC to Pure's 12 Nexus and then took a third expansion really, really fast. This was the theme throughout their series. The games lasted around 20 minutes and Flash's micro/macro was victorious in the end. Pure had no chance.
vs. Free - Flash went with a forward rax in both the first games! Free was probably expecting a 14CC into quick expand and then a macro game where he maybe stood a bigger chance against Flash then Pure. But Flash just shut it down! Then with a 2-0 lead, both players start playing standard, Flash runs over Free in the third set. Free is a dangerous opponent, as was shown by the second half of their game on Match Point. Glad Flash pulled through.
Im sure Flash could have won against Pure faster in their games. Maybe he just wanted to make Free feel secure about the 12 nexus strategy and get some easy wins.
Also why would flash play to Free's strength in macro, he exploited his build asap, with pure he could afford a macro war where he was sure to prevail, against free that would be more risky. Either way Im a bit dissapointed free didnt take a game. Oh well.
What's really sad is that free was #3 by Elo ranking going into this match, and it was that one-sided. Is there any reason we shouldn't be rolling out the B-word here?
On May 15 2010 12:12 malathion wrote: What's really sad is that free was #3 by Elo ranking going into this match, and it was that one-sided. Is there any reason we shouldn't be rolling out the B-word here?
Yes. #2 on the ELO list.
By the way, Flash has played 14 games against the dragons this year...and won EVERY FRIGGIN GAME. Sick, sick, sick.
EPT
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Ez
