|
On April 21 2010 15:37 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 15:25 purpose wrote:
Wow thats why I hate Terran. Camp with uber tanks, do some drops, then sit and watch while protoss recalls into mines and then just role out and own with uber tanks gg no re. The game made perfect sense if you understand the matchup. Protoss took an early lead, which allowed him to easily take a third and then fourth and fifth base, with Terran stuck on three bases Protoss got a roaring economy, lots of gates, upgrades going, and arbiters. Protoss heavily favored to win, Terran's only choices are to expand (very hard versus recall and so many expendable zealots) or push out with a 200/200 ridiculous upgrades EMP + Tank + Vulture w/goliath attack and try to EMP enough arbiters + catch the Protoss army in an unfavorable enough position that massive gateway reinforcements can't make up the difference. Terran is holding a small number of locations, so Protoss cannot make any effective attack, including recall. Protoss uses recall, sacrificing 40+ food and a pile of arbiter energy. Terran takes that blessing and rushes the fuck out of Protoss before he can refill his army -- > Terran wins. I do find it a little obnoxious that Terran can always turtle up to a death blob regardless of how far behind they are (on a map with a fairly easy third) but three base Terran is perfectly manageable provided you the Protoss know your role in the game.
This. I feel like people flaming Bisu for that recall do not fully understand the match up. Was the recall a bad decision? Yes. Was it the worst possible decision any gamer could make? No. For many reasons.
- A 3 base Terran can still roll out with a close to maxed army and ridiculous upgrades and CRUSH a maxed protoss army. It is simply a matter of time. It is the Protoss's job in this match up to harass the terran to the extent that when the Terran push eventually comes out, it is relatively weak or, as Day[9] would describe it, squishy. Bisu was simply trying to react to this by recalling into Light's third and either (A) Delaying the terran from getting to a maxed army or (B) shutting down Light's economy so the push cannot be reinforced so readily.
- Bisu did not lose the game with that recall. Far from it. Light was FORCED to move out after that recall, for it was basically the only chance Light had to win the game. Bisu had so many gates that he could quickly replenished his lost army, IF HE COULD STALL THE TERRAN PUSH SIGNIFICANTLY. The thing that killed bisu was that CLUTCH EMP that light pulled on both Bisu's arbiters. 2 stasis on Lights tanks would have cut his push in HALF, allowing bisu to either crush it outright or delay the push until Bisu's superior eco advantage overwhelmed Light.
|
Actually, Protoss's job in that situation is to expand two or three times (Which Bisu did) and then engage the Terran Army outside of his base -- far away from your thirty or so gateways. The terran will win that fight but all you have to do is keep your arbiters alive and by the time he unsieges and pushes halfway across the map, you can engage him again with mostly Zealots you had queued during the fight, reinforced by goons being made after the fight. After this you should be at the advantage as Terran can't come close to your reinforcing power. Use this to secure two more bases, don't let terran take a fourth, and then A move in.
|
On April 21 2010 16:06 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Actually, Protoss's job in that situation is to expand two or three times (Which Bisu did) and then engage the Terran Army outside of his base -- far away from your thirty or so gateways. The terran will win that fight but all you have to do is keep your arbiters alive and by the time he unsieges and pushes halfway across the map, you can engage him again with mostly Zealots you had queued during the fight, reinforced by goons being made after the fight. After this you should be at the advantage as Terran can't come close to your reinforcing power. Use this to secure two more bases, don't let terran take a fourth, and then A move in.
The problem is that once T gets a high tank count with 2/1 or higher upgrades he practically loses nothing when engaging even a maxed P army assuming he doesnt siege too late. Since he will have vessels he should have enough vision to see the P flanks coming and siege in plenty of time, and to paraphrase Artosis, kill your entire army in one volley while losing almost nothing. That's why I think storm should make a comeback as a staple in PvT. With storm P will still lose your entire army but the T army should be much smaller after the engagement.
|
Well yes, Storm is usually part of a maxed P army. Hell that's one of the big parts of that first engagement I was talking about -- the entire point of that is to soften up the terran army and either make them push or, if they don't, you just expand more. Templars are amazing at almost killing tanks and making your follow up engagement more successful.
|
On April 21 2010 14:59 ~ava wrote:
soo's mutas were worthless, should have cost him the match. Light happy to sit on 2base with 0-0 upgrades vs. macro zerg?!
Really? How many zergs out there do you think can stop a 14cc M&M army from pushing out with just mutas alone? He never flew the mutas into light's base because he was busy raping marines at the choke. They stalled enough time for lurker tech to kick in at his 3rd. Without his muta control his 3rd would have been dead.
|
10387 Posts
Soo was fucking amazing, a while back I had absolutely no hope in this kid, but now I think he could very well be the new hope for T1 Zerg
|
Aw...there was no Sea today...
|
^Sea has MSL tmr. It was a good idea to save him, I'm happy for Hyun and Saint.^^
On April 21 2010 15:45 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 15:34 below66 wrote:On April 21 2010 15:31 below66 wrote:
can you imagine if he sac some observers to check those mines in the mineral line? and only recalled like 5-7 zealots to pop the mines off and take all the scv's? would of been nice to see that... would have won him the game. yes i just quoted myself. I'm pretty sure he did have an Obs with the Arbiter, might have to rewatch later but I thought I saw one.
You're right, he had an Obs with the Arbiter. I just watched the VOD, I have no idea how he missed those mines given that he had an Obs there.
|
Lulz, what do I have sea in my fantasy pl team for if they dont even send him T_T
|
|
|
Bisu is raping people's antis. x.o
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Bisu always had better pvp than Pusan 
|
i'm sad to see players that were dominating some time ago losing to a player that usually sucks in proleague.
|
Fantasy is so bad against zerg now it's mind blowing.
|
HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On April 21 2010 16:00 owenowens33 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 15:37 Severedevil wrote:On April 21 2010 15:25 purpose wrote:
Wow thats why I hate Terran. Camp with uber tanks, do some drops, then sit and watch while protoss recalls into mines and then just role out and own with uber tanks gg no re. On April 21 2010 15:26 KumquatExpress wrote:
that game made no sense The game made perfect sense if you understand the matchup. Protoss took an early lead, which allowed him to easily take a third and then fourth and fifth base, with Terran stuck on three bases Protoss got a roaring economy, lots of gates, upgrades going, and arbiters. Protoss heavily favored to win, Terran's only choices are to expand (very hard versus recall and so many expendable zealots) or push out with a 200/200 ridiculous upgrades EMP + Tank + Vulture w/goliath attack and try to EMP enough arbiters + catch the Protoss army in an unfavorable enough position that massive gateway reinforcements can't make up the difference. Terran is holding a small number of locations, so Protoss cannot make any effective attack, including recall. Protoss uses recall, sacrificing 40+ food and a pile of arbiter energy. Terran takes that blessing and rushes the fuck out of Protoss before he can refill his army -- > Terran wins. I do find it a little obnoxious that Terran can always turtle up to a death blob regardless of how far behind they are (on a map with a fairly easy third) but three base Terran is perfectly manageable provided you the Protoss know your role in the game. - Bisu did not lose the game with that recall. Far from it. Light was FORCED to move out after that recall, for it was basically the only chance Light had to win the game. Bisu had so many gates that he could quickly replenished his lost army, IF HE COULD STALL THE TERRAN PUSH SIGNIFICANTLY. The thing that killed bisu was that CLUTCH EMP that light pulled on both Bisu's arbiters. 2 stasis on Lights tanks would have cut his push in HALF, allowing bisu to either crush it outright or delay the push until Bisu's superior eco advantage overwhelmed Light.
If Bisu was one "clutch EMP" away from losing the game, then he certainly didn't have the advantage at that point that most people claim he did. (Note: I didn't see the game.) This is not Starcraft knowledge, it's common sense.
|
thats the sad truth actually.
Light play sloppily, and bunched up tons of siege tanks together. 5o6o7o. And EMP'd two arbiters with energy from stasising 10 tanks with a single stasis.
Bisu too was really really sloppy. he attacked from a horrible angle, hugging the centre wall while getting free siege shots all the way, losing dozens of zealots and goons without killing a single tank (yes, you heard it. without killing a single tank)
|
this is a sad day.. bisu literally threw this game away while he was wayyy ahead.. fail recall followed by sloppy micro and macro
|
On April 22 2010 00:29 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 16:00 owenowens33 wrote:On April 21 2010 15:37 Severedevil wrote:On April 21 2010 15:25 purpose wrote:
Wow thats why I hate Terran. Camp with uber tanks, do some drops, then sit and watch while protoss recalls into mines and then just role out and own with uber tanks gg no re. On April 21 2010 15:26 KumquatExpress wrote:
that game made no sense The game made perfect sense if you understand the matchup. Protoss took an early lead, which allowed him to easily take a third and then fourth and fifth base, with Terran stuck on three bases Protoss got a roaring economy, lots of gates, upgrades going, and arbiters. Protoss heavily favored to win, Terran's only choices are to expand (very hard versus recall and so many expendable zealots) or push out with a 200/200 ridiculous upgrades EMP + Tank + Vulture w/goliath attack and try to EMP enough arbiters + catch the Protoss army in an unfavorable enough position that massive gateway reinforcements can't make up the difference. Terran is holding a small number of locations, so Protoss cannot make any effective attack, including recall. Protoss uses recall, sacrificing 40+ food and a pile of arbiter energy. Terran takes that blessing and rushes the fuck out of Protoss before he can refill his army -- > Terran wins. I do find it a little obnoxious that Terran can always turtle up to a death blob regardless of how far behind they are (on a map with a fairly easy third) but three base Terran is perfectly manageable provided you the Protoss know your role in the game. - Bisu did not lose the game with that recall. Far from it. Light was FORCED to move out after that recall, for it was basically the only chance Light had to win the game. Bisu had so many gates that he could quickly replenished his lost army, IF HE COULD STALL THE TERRAN PUSH SIGNIFICANTLY. The thing that killed bisu was that CLUTCH EMP that light pulled on both Bisu's arbiters. 2 stasis on Lights tanks would have cut his push in HALF, allowing bisu to either crush it outright or delay the push until Bisu's superior eco advantage overwhelmed Light. If Bisu was one "clutch EMP" away from losing the game, then he certainly didn't have the advantage at that point that most people claim he did. (Note: I didn't see the game.) This is not Starcraft knowledge, it's common sense.
Bisu most certainly didn't have the advantage at that point in the game. It was the recall that suicided ~20-30 units for little in return that completely turned the game around. Up until then Bisu was in the clear lead, with 5 soon to be 6 bases vs 3. But losing that many units and not having enough gates to reinforce vs Light's 150-200/200 push cost him his lead, and most definitely the game.
Anyone that thinks that the recall wasn't the turning point (and therefore cost him the game) is kidding themselves.
+ Show Spoiler +even the guy that says it didn't cost him the game inadvertently said it did Bisu did not lose the game with that recall. Far from it. Light was FORCED to move out after that recall, for it was basically the only chance Light had to win the game. surely if the failed recall was Light's only chance to win, then the recall cost Bisu the game.
|
On April 22 2010 00:29 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 16:00 owenowens33 wrote:On April 21 2010 15:37 Severedevil wrote:On April 21 2010 15:25 purpose wrote:
Wow thats why I hate Terran. Camp with uber tanks, do some drops, then sit and watch while protoss recalls into mines and then just role out and own with uber tanks gg no re. On April 21 2010 15:26 KumquatExpress wrote:
that game made no sense The game made perfect sense if you understand the matchup. Protoss took an early lead, which allowed him to easily take a third and then fourth and fifth base, with Terran stuck on three bases Protoss got a roaring economy, lots of gates, upgrades going, and arbiters. Protoss heavily favored to win, Terran's only choices are to expand (very hard versus recall and so many expendable zealots) or push out with a 200/200 ridiculous upgrades EMP + Tank + Vulture w/goliath attack and try to EMP enough arbiters + catch the Protoss army in an unfavorable enough position that massive gateway reinforcements can't make up the difference. Terran is holding a small number of locations, so Protoss cannot make any effective attack, including recall. Protoss uses recall, sacrificing 40+ food and a pile of arbiter energy. Terran takes that blessing and rushes the fuck out of Protoss before he can refill his army -- > Terran wins. I do find it a little obnoxious that Terran can always turtle up to a death blob regardless of how far behind they are (on a map with a fairly easy third) but three base Terran is perfectly manageable provided you the Protoss know your role in the game. - Bisu did not lose the game with that recall. Far from it. Light was FORCED to move out after that recall, for it was basically the only chance Light had to win the game. Bisu had so many gates that he could quickly replenished his lost army, IF HE COULD STALL THE TERRAN PUSH SIGNIFICANTLY. The thing that killed bisu was that CLUTCH EMP that light pulled on both Bisu's arbiters. 2 stasis on Lights tanks would have cut his push in HALF, allowing bisu to either crush it outright or delay the push until Bisu's superior eco advantage overwhelmed Light. If Bisu was one "clutch EMP" away from losing the game, then he certainly didn't have the advantage at that point that most people claim he did. (Note: I didn't see the game.) This is not Starcraft knowledge, it's common sense.
You should really see the game then.
|
wow, light losing vs zerg and winning vs protoss? THE HELL
at least bisu is slowly digging himself out of this rut of failure
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
