Thought I'd throw this up now because I'm super psyched for tomorrow. Let's get some usual super awesome fun-time polls.
Poll: Who are you cheering for? (Vote): Samsung Khan (Vote): CJ Entus
Poll: Who do you think will win? (Vote): Samsung Khan (Vote): CJ Entus
Poll: Why do YOU think Savior isn't playing? (Vote): CJ Entus showing mercy to Samsung Khan. (Vote): Intimidation factor for when he's the surprise ace match player. (Vote): He is playing every match, he's just fooling everyone by wearing masks and wigs.
Oh, how exciting. Really hard to pick a team to root for, here.
I think great and Stork will win their games, and then hopefully a tremendous ace match.
Effort's really good but Stork's PvZ has been looking awful hot lately. And since it's not on New Heartbreak Ridge I think he can definitely pull it off.
Oh a PvZ on Neon Moon Glaive, never seen that before and a 3-player map too, Stork probably prepared some crazy ass build like what he did on outsider vs ZerO.
3-2 for Khan or maybe 3-1... all depends on great, but Im a little worried cus I remember the last ace match betwen Stork and effort (Last FPL playoffs) and that wasnt nice (I hate you effort). But now I think that Stork will get revenge for that.
Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
Banner looks awesome. Love the Stork Storm hand. GO KHAN!
Although, it's been bothering me for awhile now. The graphic for RECOMMENDED is spelled with two C's which is a major typo. Maybe one of the artists can fix it or OPs can switch to another graphic? I would do it myself but I don't know crap about photoshop and all that. :-\
I'm really glad the map is moon glaive for EffOrt and Stork rather than neo heartbreak or something played to death like that. I can't think of a game on moon glaive I didn't find exciting.
I want Stork to win because he's out of the individual leagues and seems to be having a hard time. That being said, I also want EffOrt to do well. What I'm hoping for is 12 hatch by EffOrt and late game DTs which clinch Stork the game. That would be sick
Stork's PvZ has been very strong of late but... EffOrt is 19-3 in ZvP since April, working on an 11 game winning streak, and has rolled Stork twice in this run.
The alien has to be the favorite.
Ideally CJ 3-1's here, with TurN taking his game by doing something crazy.
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
I'm a Khan fan but true that man. I've got nothing but respect for CJ's coach. Who did win the best coach of the year award?
I really think CJ's coach should have won (in case he didn't).
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
I'm a Khan fan but true that man. I've got nothing but respect for CJ's coach. Who did win the best coach of the year award?
I really think CJ's coach should have won (in case he didn't).
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
I'm a Khan fan but true that man. I've got nothing but respect for CJ's coach. Who did win the best coach of the year award?
I really think CJ's coach should have won (in case he didn't).
SKT's coach won. To be fair, SKT's coach actually deserved it. Before he came, SKT was falling apart for some reason. After he came, SKT magically became #1 again. I am not sure what he did, but he achieved results.
But, I agree with you that the CJ coach deserve a big fat award. The guy held his team together during the toughest of times. Before CJ sponsored his team, Cho's team was always one of the poorest. Yet the guy got a talent for finding talented rookies and breeding them into amazingly strong players. Nal_ra, Reach and several other famous players had their roots in Cho's team, but they left when Cho simply isn't capable of giving them the salary that they deserve. That's the story of CJ, always losing talents left and right, but breeding and gaining them everyday as well through Cho's nurturing.
Stork v.s. Effort is definitely a must see. Stork is looking hot, but as somebody else pointed out, Effort is the ultimate ZvP specialist with 75% win rate. The Protoss that he destroyed are no rookies either. Although I do find it funny that he is 0-3 against Bisu, but 2-0 against Stork.
Stork < Effort great > Skyhigh I'm surprised so many people are saying Skyhigh will win this Turn < Hydra Hydra has been playing pretty well lately in the few games we've seen him play M18M < Movie ezpz
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
Edit: Rationalizations, efforts zvp is far beyond storks pvz, and skyhigh is terrible so great should win. Movie is obviously better than the no namer toss khan sent out, and turn's been very impressive but im not certain on that prediction.
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
Imho, there is nobody on CJ who clearly deserves the 4th slot, so he has to change around the lineup every week to see who is doing well.
Like what khan is doing is training their nublets. Like khan's line up is already pretty much set. great-stork-jangbi-fbh. Turn can replace fbh every once in a while, but M18M is not good enough for jangbi yet. And odin is definitely not good enough for great, although odin is not really new.
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
Hydra likely got sent out on Outsider with the intention of sniping great. We've never seen Hydra's ZvT, and his ZvP is a work in progress, but his ZvZ seems very solid, and an excellent reason to keep playing him.
Also, someone above dismissed M18M against Movie, which is a mistake I think. I'm still not convinced of Movie's proleague stability, and M18M is not a bad protoss at all. If he was on Hwaseung, we'd see him every match.
I'll be streaming, but I'll likely be streaming Sea v Jaedong instead of either Turn v Hydra or M18M v Movie (if the games go that fast) because that match up is just too epic.
M18M is pretty good, Movie isn't going to have an easy time with him at all. I like how everyone dismisses him as a random terrible protoss - Look at his record. Not bad at all for KHAN's #3 toss
Movie will still probably win - but it isn't going to be a cakewalk like some of you keep implying
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
This is why Effort is a massive pimp and I have mad respect for him even though he's won nothing in the SLs yet.
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
Hydra likely got sent out on Outsider with the intention of sniping great. We've never seen Hydra's ZvT, and his ZvP is a work in progress, but his ZvZ seems very solid, and an excellent reason to keep playing him.
Also, someone above dismissed M18M against Movie, which is a mistake I think. I'm still not convinced of Movie's proleague stability, and M18M is not a bad protoss at all. If he was on Hwaseung, we'd see him every match.
M18M has a better vT% than both Jangbi and Stork lol. Unlike Killer/GGaemo, looks like M18M does gain something from practicing with top players all the time.
On December 29 2009 00:35 KvkG wrote: Why the hell is Hydra being sent out more and more? Doesn't CJ have the deepest zerg lineup ever? Why the hell would they send out a rookie zerg like Hydra time and time again?
They are sending out a rookie zerg, any other team's player would lose like 70-80% of his matches, Hydra wins at least 50%.
Even with one of the strongest lineup the rookie trio, CJ keeps building for the future. This is how a team should be run!
I'm a Khan fan but true that man. I've got nothing but respect for CJ's coach. Who did win the best coach of the year award?
I really think CJ's coach should have won (in case he didn't).
Stork v.s. Effort is definitely a must see. Stork is looking hot, but as somebody else pointed out, Effort is the ultimate ZvP specialist with 75% win rate. The Protoss that he destroyed are no rookies either. Although I do find it funny that he is 0-3 against Bisu, but 2-0 against Stork.
I saw both games they played and I do have to say that the first one was just horrible play by stork and the second was how stork just demolished effort for 20 minutes or moreand then decided to run his huge army ball into a dark swarm/ ultralisk/ sunken defense at his natural and got all his untits killed for like nothing. He had probably more than twice efforts supply, was even or ahead on bases and within one minute he still lost. And that was when he wasnt on fire. Against a clean player like Bisu those days he fell apart and today stork plays like that, too. So I think stork is still the favorite here.
On December 29 2009 08:58 Xiphos wrote: Stork can probably put up a good fight but as much as I hate to say it, effort will most likely to win against Stork.
yeap Effort's win streak is beast. but then again, streaks were made to be broken...
On December 29 2009 08:58 Xiphos wrote: Stork can probably put up a good fight but as much as I hate to say it, effort will most likely to win against Stork.
yeap Effort's win streak is beast. but then again, streaks were made to be broken...
I believe! Even if Stork fails FBH will bunker rush Effort ftw in ace.
Stork < EffOrt Effort's vsP is amazing and Stork seems to be losing a bit of momentum after losing to Shine. However, it'll be a close game.
great > sKyHigh Honestly this is probably the hardest one to predict, but I'm giving great the edge because sKyHigh is just awful and he hasn't done anything impressive vsZ as of late.
TurN > Hydra Hydra's ZvT is untested while TurN has taken out type-b and YellOw[ArnC] as well as losing a nail-biter game to Kwanro. Like all of TurN's games, I expect this one to be quick and action-packed, but hopefully with him winning this time.
M18M < Movie Movie has both history and experience on his side. He's already beaten M18M this season and he's also been in the proscene longer. M18M does practice with Stork and JangBi though, so I expect him to play standard and put up a good fight
Stork > Movie This is a very tough ace to predict since both teams have a bunch of players to choose from. Despite Stork's probable loss to EffOrt I feel Khan will depend on him once again since they will be expecting EffOrt for ace and neither Jangbi, great or FBH can touch him in their current form. As for Movie, I just have a gut instinct telling me he'll be sent out. With that said Stork should easily roll over Movie and win it for Khan 3-2.
After last week, I'm pretty impressed by Hydra. I'm a person who likes to look at players starting from their mirror match abilities and Hydra definitely impressed me last time.
This is gonna be a hell of a series and even though Stork is like my favorite protoss ever, I'm first and foremost a CJ fan and I have faith that CJ will prevail 3-1 if not 3-0. Hwaiting!!!
I'm very surprised at these polls, i know Stork is amazing, we all love him but really.. Effort's ZvP is 75%, he's on a 10 win streak, barely lost any of his last 20 games not to mention 2-0 against Stork. It's gonna be a very close and intense game, but he's clearly the favourite.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
He plays standard really well and consistently is what u r trying to tell me. Which is basically exactly what I posted. He plays like a super robot and that is why I don''t like him that much.
How did he become a front runner developing zvp play,??? What innovation did he make? He just takes what has been proven works and does a damn good job of recreating it in his play but that is why his zvz is so random because what works is usually luck based BO.
He is smart and top tier for doing what works very well. But he is in no way a strategical genius if he doesn't show a lot of creativity.
Stork < EffOrt great < sKyHigh TurN > Hydra M18M < Movie
1. I think Stork is great against Zergs with worse mechanics, which happens to be effort's forte. 2. This is really a toss up for me actually; skyhigh is not in his best shape, and great seems to be good these days. Since the map favours Terran slightly, I'm go with skyhigh. 3. TurN has a lot of hype around him, and hydra... has nothing. So turn. 4. Movie, because he's gangster.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
He plays standard really well and consistently is what u r trying to tell me. Which is basically exactly what I posted. He plays like a super robot and that is why I don''t like him that much.
How did he become a front runner developing zvp play,??? What innovation did he make? He just takes what has been proven works and does a damn good job of recreating it in his play but that is why his zvz is so random because what works is usually luck based BO.
He is smart and top tier for doing what works very well. But he is in no way a strategical genius if he doesn't show a lot of creativity.
On December 29 2009 13:25 Huggusten wrote: I'm very surprised at these polls, i know Stork is amazing, we all love him but really.. Effort's ZvP is 75%, he's on a 10 win streak, barely lost any of his last 20 games not to mention 2-0 against Stork. It's gonna be a very close and intense game, but he's clearly the favourite.
fanboyism distorts reality. Just like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash fanboys will never admit their favorite player is an underdog
Stork is bleeding probes, he sends his 2 zlots to attack instead of defend, forces Effort to clear out his natural of drones, but doesnt get any non-ling kills. Stork lost more probes to that 1 remaining ling which has 4 kills
On December 29 2009 18:47 FireGuyX wrote: disappointing performance from Stork, I thought Stork had one of the best PvZ? Granted Effort has very good ZvP, but still.
On December 29 2009 18:47 FireGuyX wrote: disappointing performance from Stork, I thought Stork had one of the best PvZ? Granted Effort has very good ZvP, but still.
he fucked up cannon timing. Theres no coming back from that. shades of Bisu-Jaedong anyone?
Waiting for someone to say the obvious... the game was lost as soon as those 4 lings ran by the warping cannon, skill in the matchup didn't even come into it.
On December 29 2009 18:49 SkelA wrote: i didnt see the start of the game but what effort used 9 pool or overpool? stork timing on cannons was way off and was just 4 lings...
w/e it was, Stork had scouted it on his first try, knew all timings yet still cut corners...
Mmmm, I think I might try and write a summary of Efforts ZvP dominance. It's so refreshing to see something besides the Three-Hatch Spire into Five-Hatch Hydra.
On December 29 2009 18:49 Balfazar wrote: Waiting for someone to say the obvious... the game was lost as soon as those 4 lings ran by the warping cannon, skill in the matchup didn't even come into it.
yeah seriously whats with all the omg effort so good stork so bad pvz in this thread? game was over because of a huge blunder on storks part. didnt even go to mid game
On December 29 2009 18:49 Balfazar wrote: Waiting for someone to say the obvious... the game was lost as soon as those 4 lings ran by the warping cannon, skill in the matchup didn't even come into it.
yeah seriously whats with all the omg effort so good stork so bad pvz in this thread? game was over because of a huge blunder on storks part. didnt even go to mid game
because people have watched effort zvp besides this game and he was the favorite anyway?
On December 29 2009 18:47 FireGuyX wrote: disappointing performance from Stork, I thought Stork had one of the best PvZ? Granted Effort has very good ZvP, but still.
On December 29 2009 18:47 FireGuyX wrote: disappointing performance from Stork, I thought Stork had one of the best PvZ? Granted Effort has very good ZvP, but still.
On December 29 2009 18:49 Balfazar wrote: Waiting for someone to say the obvious... the game was lost as soon as those 4 lings ran by the warping cannon, skill in the matchup didn't even come into it.
yeah seriously whats with all the omg effort so good stork so bad pvz in this thread? game was over because of a huge blunder on storks part. didnt even go to mid game
Being above 60% win is considered a topplayerwinrate. Effort ZvP is 75% which only rivals JD ZvZ and Flash TvT.
On December 29 2009 18:49 Balfazar wrote: Waiting for someone to say the obvious... the game was lost as soon as those 4 lings ran by the warping cannon, skill in the matchup didn't even come into it.
yeah seriously whats with all the omg effort so good stork so bad pvz in this thread? game was over because of a huge blunder on storks part. didnt even go to mid game
Being above 60% win is considered a topplayerwinrate. Effort ZvP is 75% which only rivals JD ZvZ and Flash TvT.
On December 29 2009 18:56 darktreb wrote: Ahhh a throwback by Stork to the days when he his PvZ was legendarily BAD....
I find it funny how many people on TL nowadays don't know that Stork was once known as much for his PvZ ineptitude as his PvT/PvP prowess.
There are many funny things in the world, though I find it only good that the old fucking "Storks PvZ is so bad" bandwagon has ended. And people in LR has always been short on memory.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
I am curious as how you think that YellOw[Arnc], Luxury(who teared like everything up round 1), Shine (who tears up everything atm), and Kwanro? Please, if you are gonna use the "aggressive zerg noob player" against them and hate them. One of the most beloved zergs in the world with what people has called GODLY zvp consistent throughout history, then look at Julyzerg. He is aggressive, cheesy, (and even more focused on the early game than Shine for example) and he is loved. Explain to me, why.
He was capable of winning games against anyone but he was also capable of losing to anyone, which is what this game reminded me of. Also his games lacked finesse (at least in appearance), especially relative to the period of time after Bisu's rise. Stork actually took a fair number of games off of Savior (back when Savior was literally invincible at the matchup) but he never managed to take full series.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
I am curious as how you think that YellOw[Arnc], Luxury(who teared like everything up round 1), Shine (who tears up everything atm), and Kwanro? Please, if you are gonna use the "aggressive zerg noob player" against them and hate them. One of the most beloved zergs in the world with what people has called GODLY zvp consistent throughout history, then look at Julyzerg. He is aggressive, cheesy, (and even more focused on the early game than Shine for example) and he is loved. Explain to me, why.
He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro, He changes styles sometimes and shows godly micro that makes you go wow, (despite the fact that Shine wins, its hardly impressive how he does it) July actually has a lategame, which fans love to see. Whatever you say about shine, his Defiler control is abysmal. and it helps that he waited until he was established to knock off well-liked players.
On December 29 2009 19:08 FireGuyX wrote: not too many PvZ experts right now, all I can think of is Bisu and Movie. BeSt shows more promise than Stork because of his incredible micro.
On December 29 2009 19:06 Chen wrote: He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro
While it is certainly true for Lux, type-b's career is just under way, I feel, and I would like to point out that Kwanro is in the MSL quarterfinals, yet again.
On December 29 2009 19:08 FireGuyX wrote: not too many PvZ experts right now, all I can think of is Bisu and Movie. BeSt shows more promise than Stork because of his incredible micro.
Violet and Kal.
Violet's worst MU is vs Zerg. statistically anyways.
On December 29 2009 19:06 Chen wrote: He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro
While it is certainly true for Lux, type-b's career is just under way, I feel, and I would like to point out that Kwanro is in the MSL quarterfinals, yet again.
better phrasing would probably be another no-name zerg that most people feel doesnt deserve his spot in the semi's/finals
On December 29 2009 19:11 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On December 29 2009 19:06 Chen wrote: He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro
While it is certainly true for Lux, type-b's career is just under way, I feel, and I would like to point out that Kwanro is in the MSL quarterfinals, yet again.
better phrasing would probably be another no-name zerg that most people feel doesnt deserve his spot in the semi's/finals
On December 29 2009 18:56 darktreb wrote: Ahhh a throwback by Stork to the days when he his PvZ was legendarily BAD....
I find it funny how many people on TL nowadays don't know that Stork was once known as much for his PvZ ineptitude as his PvT/PvP prowess.
Was it worse than Jangbi's and Best's? i mean 4th among Dragons isnt that bad...
i would say it was worse than jangbi's but better than best's best's pvz back then was such lol (not that it's great now or anything)
Well if were going to go really back to storks pvz incompetence, that was well before the dragon era. And I'd say it was at least on par with bests in that case. 48-52% sort of deal, complete lack of game sense or proper decisions, winning on mechanics, etc. Like 2006 stork pvz.
On December 29 2009 19:11 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On December 29 2009 19:06 Chen wrote: He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro
While it is certainly true for Lux, type-b's career is just under way, I feel, and I would like to point out that Kwanro is in the MSL quarterfinals, yet again.
better phrasing would probably be another no-name zerg that most people feel doesnt deserve his spot in the semi's/finals
I'm not sure why you would group Lux under that, he was definitely not a no-name zerg when he won the MSL..
On December 29 2009 19:11 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On December 29 2009 19:06 Chen wrote: He has charisma, he was the star of his race rather the umpteenth up and comer who people expect to fade into nothingness like Luxury, Type-B and Kwanro
While it is certainly true for Lux, type-b's career is just under way, I feel, and I would like to point out that Kwanro is in the MSL quarterfinals, yet again.
better phrasing would probably be another no-name zerg that most people feel doesnt deserve his spot in the semi's/finals
I'm not sure why you would group Lux under that, he was definitely not a no-name zerg when he won the MSL..
Yeah, and at least Luxury had been to semifinals before that MSL, too. People just hate zergs not named Jaedong, is all.
On December 29 2009 19:21 writer22816 wrote: Games like this really make you wonder how Skyhigh beat Jaedong...
I htink skyhigh is playing sloppy because he's up against a turtle, he doesn't feel pressured to play his BEST. As long as you can secure your expansions, you can just BC to victory...
On December 29 2009 19:21 writer22816 wrote: Games like this really make you wonder how Skyhigh beat Jaedong...
I htink skyhigh is playing sloppy because he's up against a turtle, he doesn't feel pressured to play his BEST. As long as you can secure your expansions, you can just BC to victory...
On December 29 2009 19:21 writer22816 wrote: Games like this really make you wonder how Skyhigh beat Jaedong...
I htink skyhigh is playing sloppy because he's up against a turtle, he doesn't feel pressured to play his BEST. As long as you can secure your expansions, you can just BC to victory...
Boring game. I think Skyhigh should have just pushed the main when he was on three rax and at least dealt some damage. Turtle zergs are fucking tough bastards.
I feel that Skyhigh just demonstrates how if you aren't aggressive enough to prevent the zerg from taking 5 bases, you're dead five minutes after that occurs.
That is the one area where Flash excels and crushes zerg, in his ability to both defend his base using medic-marine and attack at the same time using the same.
As an addendum to this, more than three and you're dead.
On December 29 2009 19:24 konadora wrote: i understand skyhigh's plan
but it was so poorly executed =/
he was tryig to secure expansions right? Just so that we are all on the same page
holding center of map early game with mnm force holding center of map mid game with mnm + vulture mines holding center of map late game with mnm + vulture mines + tanks
Expand everywhere, eventually go macro vs macro and win.
That was the rough plan, but expo at 6 was too slow, vessels weren't that fast either, and at the very least he should have delayed the taking of either 12 or 1's nat.
My other problem with Skyhigh is that he just massed tanks without doing anything. A couple tanks on the high ground could have secured his expansions from those Ultras.
I think one of the main reasons he lost was because he skipped tanks. Without tanks, great knew he could turtle behind lurker/sunken/defiler and then pump ultraling when he has enough gas.
On December 29 2009 19:34 Rainmaker5 wrote: My other problem with Skyhigh is that he just massed tanks without doing anything. A couple tanks on the high ground could have secured his expansions from those Ultras.
On December 29 2009 19:39 scyper wrote: wowwww nice play by TurN. fake bunker rush to have crazy-hydra pull lots of drones and waste mining time. hes ahead now
On December 29 2009 19:39 scyper wrote: wowwww nice play by TurN. fake bunker rush to have crazy-hydra pull lots of drones and waste mining time. hes ahead now
hydra, not crazy-hydra
crazy-hydra is in woongjin
lol, thanks for correction. i dont get why soo many zerg players have the word hydra and zerg in their names
On December 29 2009 19:39 scyper wrote: wowwww nice play by TurN. fake bunker rush to have crazy-hydra pull lots of drones and waste mining time. hes ahead now
hydra, not crazy-hydra
crazy-hydra is in woongjin
lol, thanks for correction. i dont get why soo many zerg players have the word hydra and zerg in their names
On December 29 2009 19:39 scyper wrote: wowwww nice play by TurN. fake bunker rush to have crazy-hydra pull lots of drones and waste mining time. hes ahead now
hydra, not crazy-hydra
crazy-hydra is in woongjin
lol, thanks for correction. i dont get why soo many zerg players have the word hydra and zerg in their names
look at effort, hes the only guy who should be Hydra actually, that would be fucking pimp
On December 29 2009 19:28 MuffinDude wrote: We don't need stork to win. Stork purposely lost to show that khan can can still win even when their strongest player loses. =D
You know, I really respect Turn. Unlike all the new players who are mostly "macro-bots", Turn actually tries to play some fun to watch and micro-intensive games.
However I wish he'd at least play standard some of the time. If you look at all his games they're all timing pushes or base trades or 1base wraith play. Turn could make it big if he stopped being stubborn and worked on his mid-late game, macro and large army control.
On December 29 2009 19:50 sleeepy wrote: Turn could make it big if he stopped being stubborn and worked on his mid-late game, macro and large army control.
Reminds me of a certain new zerg a lot less popular than TurN
On December 29 2009 19:50 sleeepy wrote: Turn could make it big if he stopped being stubborn and worked on his mid-late game, macro and large army control.
Reminds me of a certain new zerg a lot less popular than TurN
difference being shine gets away with his early game because mutas are a lot more useful than wraiths
On December 29 2009 19:50 sleeepy wrote: Turn could make it big if he stopped being stubborn and worked on his mid-late game, macro and large army control.
Reminds me of a certain new zerg a lot less popular than TurN
difference being shine gets away with his early game because mutas are a lot more useful than wraiths
On December 29 2009 19:51 SkelA wrote: now KHAN needs a win from some noname to get us to ace :\
Losing to CJ is no shame, even KT couldnt defeat us.
Well Khan would have a better chance if they had someone good vs Zergs, they've been weak vs Z since FBH started slumping
IIRC great was supposed to be their ZvZ sniper, but has developed into a vsT player. A bad idea seeing has how Khan needed no help to their vsT line (probably their strongest).
I wonder if it's a good thing or a bad thing to give Turn all these A-team chances so early on. They must know he's not 100% ready yet, but you have to get TV games in at some point in your career. I just hope the losses don't make him lose confidence. In any case, if he keeps showing the kind of aggression and micro he has been so far, I'm willing to wait as long as it takes for him to be truly ready for the big stage, even if it means he has leave the A-team to retool his game for a bit.
I would enjoy very much that if there was a disagreement between Kingdom and Nal_ra over what the proper PvP strategy is in a given situation, that Kingdom bring up their stats versus each other and lay the argument to rest.
Movie is contained in his base, placing 4 gates and a robo bay, not sure if he can support all that production. M18M skipping support bay and SNIPES MOVIES REAVER
Movie has a Reaver and M18M does not. M18M has not tech to speak of so he might lose this. nvm Movie loses his reaver and M18M eco advantage will take over now
On December 29 2009 20:07 Cambium wrote: m18m is fucked
huh? do i have the colors mixed up?
No, at one point, Movie had a lot of goons outside of m18m's base, but he was waiting for his reaver; and m18m made another round of goons from 5 gates
srsly, how the fuck does Movie has a faster archives then M18M? he skipped support bay and reavers, AND had an earlier 2nd gas. I think hes going to get raped by 2 reavers in this next fight. actually he gets an huge flank off and has waay to many fucking troops
On December 29 2009 20:14 L_P_Monix wrote: I hope that one day I am gonna get to see Movie play a game where he doesn't lose every single one of his reavers.
Match Point is 8-4 TvZ and doesn't seem that good ZvP either.
They might not risk sending EffOrt on a map with that kind of TvZ record, possibly fearing FBH for ace. But then again, FBH is pretty bad right now and Khan isn't likely to use him regardless of map.
The most logical prediction would be Stork vs EffOrt, especially since Stork pretty much beat himself in the first set with poor timing and probe micro and feels like he can do a lot better than that.
wtf...jangbi can beat anyone when he decides to play. he's inconsistent but when he's good he's fucking good. plus im sure jangbi prepared for this match in advance, since it was obvious cj would send out effort for ace.
On December 29 2009 20:18 OneOther wrote: wtf...jangbi can beat anyone when he decides to play. he's inconsistent but when he's good he's fucking good. plus im sure jangbi prepared for this match in advance, since it was obvious cj would send out effort for ace.
Or maybe Stork's feeling off today and asked to be benched, plus Match Point is good for Protoss?
On December 29 2009 20:18 sleeepy wrote: Didn't JangBi destroy EffOrt in the proleague playoffs with a +1 speelot build?
Calmmmm
Ah gotcha, here's to hoping he does the same to EffOrt then.
OneOther also brings up a good point. JangBi probably practiced a lot of PvZ on Match Point since EffOrt is CJ's regular ace. He also hasn't played tonight so EffOrt has no idea of what to expect. This might not be so hopeless after all.
On December 29 2009 20:18 OneOther wrote: wtf...jangbi can beat anyone when he decides to play. he's inconsistent but when he's good he's fucking good. plus im sure jangbi prepared for this match in advance, since it was obvious cj would send out effort for ace.
Or maybe Stork's feeling off today and asked to be benched, plus Match Point is good for Protoss?
if they sent out jangbi (who was not on the entry) it's 99% likely that he prepared for the ace match. and it was pretty obvious it would be a PvZ vs vs effort
On December 29 2009 20:20 FireGuyX wrote: Movie failed with reavers so bad in that game, which is odd because his shuttle/reaver micro looked s-class when he played against Stork.
Since Jangbi wasn't in the normal lineup, it's very possible he prepared something special for Effort in the ace match. Jangbi can be very very good sometimes, so this might not be as one-sided as some of you make it seem.
Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
Yeah, CJ coach talked to him before he showed up on the stage.
On December 29 2009 20:23 lazz wrote: wow effort's vs P rivals best's peak vP (90% lol(
75%=/=90% o_O?
all im saying is that as far as vP goes, effort is pretty damn good
Yea, his vp is 75% which =/=90%
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
He did lose to pj with pj having like a 4 or 5 kill probe.
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
Yeah, CJ coach talked to him before he showed up on the stage.
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
Yeah, CJ coach talked to him before he showed up on the stage.
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
He did lose to pj with pj having like a 4 or 5 kill probe.
He also didn't say "equals", but "rivals", which is sufficiently vague to quit jabbering about it.
On December 29 2009 20:18 OneOther wrote: wtf...jangbi can beat anyone when he decides to play. he's inconsistent but when he's good he's fucking good. plus im sure jangbi prepared for this match in advance, since it was obvious cj would send out effort for ace.
the last time he prepared a special build we got to witness one of the worst 2-gates in history.
On December 29 2009 20:23 lazz wrote: wow effort's vs P rivals best's peak vP (90% lol(
75%=/=90% o_O?
all im saying is that as far as vP goes, effort is pretty damn good
Yea, his vp is 75% which =/=90%
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
He did lose to pj with pj having like a 4 or 5 kill probe.
He also didn't say "equals", but "rivals", which is sufficiently vague to quit jabbering about it.
75% can't really rival 90%...
On December 29 2009 20:28 Shizuru~ wrote: so much doubt on jangbi...
On December 29 2009 20:23 lazz wrote: wow effort's vs P rivals best's peak vP (90% lol(
75%=/=90% o_O?
all im saying is that as far as vP goes, effort is pretty damn good
Yea, his vp is 75% which =/=90%
On December 29 2009 20:25 InDaHouse wrote: Everybody excluding the possibility EffOrt not will play safe. EffOrt could pull a unexpected cheese for a fast win. Althoug he is a management player.
He did lose to pj with pj having like a 4 or 5 kill probe.
He also didn't say "equals", but "rivals", which is sufficiently vague to quit jabbering about it.
Is there a rule on konadora's channel against asking whether there's a higher resolution stream? I've seen hi-res links on other TL streams.. now I've been banned by a moderator for asking
On December 29 2009 20:32 alpskomleko wrote: Is there a rule on konadora's channel against asking whether there's a higher resolution stream? I've seen hi-res links on other TL streams.. now I've been banned by a moderator for asking
On December 29 2009 20:32 alpskomleko wrote: Is there a rule on konadora's channel against asking whether there's a higher resolution stream? I've seen hi-res links on other TL streams.. now I've been banned by a moderator for asking
On December 29 2009 20:32 alpskomleko wrote: Is there a rule on konadora's channel against asking whether there's a higher resolution stream? I've seen hi-res links on other TL streams.. now I've been banned by a moderator for asking
On December 29 2009 20:32 alpskomleko wrote: Is there a rule on konadora's channel against asking whether there's a higher resolution stream? I've seen hi-res links on other TL streams.. now I've been banned by a moderator for asking
On December 29 2009 20:38 GTR wrote: it's all about afreeca and the 3mbps streams.
I don't get all this talk about streams, I'm on a 5mbps connection, and i can stream both ferron.pe streams simultaneously without lag I guess I'm lucky...
On December 29 2009 20:38 GTR wrote: it's all about afreeca and the 3mbps streams.
I don't get all this talk about streams, I'm on a 5mbps connection, and i can stream both ferron.pe streams simultaneously without lag I guess I'm lucky...
Fuck Afreeca. I give up on it. Constant buffer. Ridiculous.
And not all of us have a 5 mbps connection.. Like me ;;
Doom drop for Effort? Jangbi going to deny Effort the 5th base. 2 Reavers out for Jangbi, gotta watch for Scourge. Effort flies overlord through some cannons and doesnt have all that much left. 2 reavers clean it up
especially when they know that they're losing but can't tap out until there's absolutely no chance, because the player was chosen as the team's ace player
GG Sick play from Jangbi. Best PvZ i've seen from him, he played well vs effort last time aswell.
Also next time i'll just watch the game and exit TL, instead of reading some of the crappy complaining. The underdog protoss is dominating, just fucking take it instead of finding something to complain about. Jesus.
The dark templar threw Efforts game into the defensive turtle, I'm surprised he was able to hold out and keep trying for as long as he did. I'd say Jangbi played more impressively with his DT, which allowed him room to relax in the mid-game, and ultimately allowed him to finally dominate the macro end game.
He was very good about holding everything down though. Efforts overlord drops got anhilated every time.
Effort did what was needed to be done, its not like he can go all out aggressive when his economy is absolutely fucked by the dark templars and JangBi is knocking on his door all the time. He executed some really good defense there and was somehow able to drag the game for longer giving JangBi the chance to fuck up somehow.
On December 29 2009 20:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Bye bye Effort.
That was one sick sick sick PvZ
Really? I was rather annoyed how long z can turtle for.
you have to admit it was very impressive play by effort holding it out
I will admit that. I was surprised at effort's macro. But this imba is rather annoying me as a p player.
The only thing imba in that game was Effort's management skills . If effort had more static defences at his natural - a spore and second sunken this game would have looked a lot diffrent .
Effort played incredible despite being so much behind he still could hold back the onslaught from jangbi for so long... that bottom expo attack diversion while sneaking dt's into efforts main was pimped!
On December 29 2009 20:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Bye bye Effort.
That was one sick sick sick PvZ
Really? I was rather annoyed how long z can turtle for.
I don't think he was turtling.
Jangbi managed this game pretty well, securing 5 bases and not denying effort's fifth.
Solid defense. WOW
Like if p was put into this position, there will be no way that p will be able to turtle for so long.
True... if P falls behind economically they are instantly run over, Z loses 20 drones and can camp the ridges with lurkers for 15 min and threaten a comeback, and they call P easy.
On December 29 2009 20:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Bye bye Effort.
That was one sick sick sick PvZ
Really? I was rather annoyed how long z can turtle for.
you have to admit it was very impressive play by effort holding it out
I will admit that. I was surprised at effort's macro. But this imba is rather annoying me as a p player.
Well, that's different balance from Z and P point of view. It's so annoying to have to face an invincible high tech toss army. Templar + mass archon + reaver + random shit, and you can throw as many shit as you want, they get anihiliated in a few seconds.
Point being, I have to agree that sometimes it is very hard for toss to finish the game, and I agree that's really annoying. I think EffOrt has lost when theses two DTs killed 30+ probes in his main / natural.
On December 29 2009 20:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Bye bye Effort.
That was one sick sick sick PvZ
Really? I was rather annoyed how long z can turtle for.
you have to admit it was very impressive play by effort holding it out
I will admit that. I was surprised at effort's macro. But this imba is rather annoying me as a p player.
Well, that's different balance from Z and P point of view. It's so annoying to have to face an invincible high tech toss army. Templar + mass archon + reaver + random shit, and you can throw as many shit as you want, they get anihiliated in a few seconds.
Point being, I have to agree that sometimes it is very hard for toss to finish the game, and I agree that's really annoying. I think EffOrt has lost when theses two DTs killed 30+ probes in his main / natural.
Its annoying that we never get to that high tech toss army nowadays. I wish there weren't so many zerglings and obs can take 2 scourge hits. x_x
ling run by imba crackling imba lurker defense imba psi storm imba reaver/archon late game imba
PvZ is somehow imba every minute of the game, alternating between each race. Sounds like any non-mirror to me. But seriously, stop talking about ZvP imba all the damn time. Especially on a [oh so slightly] P>Z map.
On December 29 2009 21:09 MountainDewJunkie wrote: ling run by imba crackling imba lurker defense imba psi storm imba reaver/archon late game imba
PvZ is somehow imba every minute of the game, alternating between each race. Sounds like any non-mirror to me. But seriously, stop saying imba all the damn time. Especially on a P>Z map.
Nah, we weren't saying that's imba, just that it's annoying.
Jangbi's timing on the attack/dt sneak was absolutely perfect. It was amazing that Effort didn't pull drones until his lost a good ~15 probes. That really shows just how much pressure Jangbi exerted at the same time.
But I was holding my breath the whole 2nd half of the game hoping Jangbi doesn't do something stupid like a-moving into the lurker line. Thank god he's learned to retreat and only attack when the situation present itself. The reaver switch came at a perfect time, and he was able to get half the map quickly enough to give himself a theoretical won end-game.
On December 29 2009 21:09 MountainDewJunkie wrote: ling run by imba crackling imba lurker defense imba psi storm imba reaver/archon late game imba
PvZ is somehow imba every minute of the game, alternating between each race. Sounds like any non-mirror to me. But seriously, stop saying imba all the damn time. Especially on a P>Z map.
So you're saying map imba?
Haha I was being facetious, but yeah I basically agree with what you're saying here. People make too many stupid complaints about race imba, and with so much repetitiveness that it gets annoying.
My suggestions were game 3 and game 5, with a focus on game 5.
Game 3 was a fun quick game.
Game 5 was a long good game.
I'd say that ultimately it was Efforts mistakes in the DT rush (which sucks because he actually had a spore colony come up right as the first pair of DTs wound up at his south expansion), that cost him the game, mainly because from there on Jangbi didn't mess up regardless of what happened.
There's nothing imba or map imbalanced about it, it was a pure head to head strategy off.
On December 29 2009 21:17 OneOther wrote: Just imagine how much pressure Jangbi was putting on Effort at 5 for a player of Effort's caliber to get 20+ drones slain by DTs
also, storming hydras was much easier after DTs infiltrated
On December 29 2009 21:18 Blaz3k wrote: It's stupid how zerg can lose 30 drones and still stay in a game for so long. If toss looses 10 drones its GG in the next 5min.
Its not the race, its the player.
Also losing 30 drones in middle game isnt as bad as losing 10 probes in early game.
Efforts lurker-ling defense of that high ground was incredible though. Sending in zerglings piecemeal to have the lurkers do maximum damage was just brilliant.
lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Did you see M18M vs Movie? Oh god.... the horrors.
the only think that i find annoying about pvz is the amout of crying, protoss whine when they loss, but it seems also when they win too -_-, effort showed off an epic hold at the centre which most other zergs probably wouldnt have been able to pull off yet people say it was only cos of the race
On December 29 2009 21:20 Rainmaker5 wrote: Efforts lurker-ling defense of that high ground was incredible though. Sending in zerglings piecemeal to have the lurkers do maximum damage was just brilliant.
and jangbi should've used less zealots, leaving like 2/3 behind and sending them when needed (protect goons from lings)...
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
On December 29 2009 21:20 Rainmaker5 wrote: Efforts lurker-ling defense of that high ground was incredible though. Sending in zerglings piecemeal to have the lurkers do maximum damage was just brilliant.
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
yeah, id have to agree with this, calculate the amount of minerals he had to spend replacing them and mining time which adds up to quite a lot. that put him REALLY behind
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
The game dynamic would've shifted entirely, because Effort probably would've had the funds and economy to push out, thus forcing Jangbi on the defensive while he massed the swarm.
Hypotheticals aren't very useful, however, for obvious reasons. Until we build JangBi and Effort robots that is, and make them play each forever for our amusement.
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
He could, but it would be harder.
sure he could and still had much higher chance to win, the map favours P and effort was behind from failed ling runby.
On December 29 2009 20:59 Baddieko wrote: now zergs can whine the imba for PvZ on match point.
Would people please stop whining about imbalances . JangBi won the game with a well executed 2 front attack . If Effort had more static defences at natural to prevent DT runby or just a spore and 6 hidras the game would have looked a lot different . And also it isn't "ZvP imba" that kept Effort in the game it was his skills as a starcraft player . If you think it's easy stabilizing from a 20 + drone and a spire kill this early in the game it is fucking not .
Replacing all the drones as fast as possible while still macroing army units , having perfectly spread lurkers for defence and marcoing from 8+ hatcherys at the same time , replacing the spire sniping observers and still perfectly macroing at the same time . If you think that playing zerg is easy or ZvP is imbalanced i would suggest every protoss player with that thought to switch to zerg .
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
He could, but it would be harder.
sure he could and still had much higher chance to win, the map favours P and effort was behind from failed ling runby.
How was that ling runby a fail? That single ling that passed got necessary intel to perfectly counter the early DT harass.
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
He could, but it would be harder.
sure he could and still had much higher chance to win, the map favours P and effort was behind from failed ling runby.
How was that ling runby a fail? That single ling that passed got necessary intel to perfectly counter the early DT harass.
The failed ling runby and considering protoss don't make zealots and zerg over made lings. Thereafter air control will be surrendered resulting in easy dt harrass. I guess its just khan's toss and every zerg fancy their chances of runby.
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
He could, but it would be harder.
sure he could and still had much higher chance to win, the map favours P and effort was behind from failed ling runby.
How was that ling runby a fail? That single ling that passed got necessary intel to perfectly counter the early DT harass.
Isnt DT harass a STANDARD play? as in you dont need to scout it you assume its coming? Effort spent alot of money early game on lings and lost most of them for basically no gain. He coulda sacrificed an overlord to get the same scouting information that he wasted 6+lings for
On December 29 2009 21:21 Baddieko wrote: lol effort isn't going to win whether he lost the drones or not. This map allows toss to keep the same no. of expos easily. I would say jangbi choking if he fails to win. CJ sends effort on any map, i thought they should have sent movie instead.
Without the lost drones, Jangbi wouldnt have won dude
He could, but it would be harder.
sure he could and still had much higher chance to win, the map favours P and effort was behind from failed ling runby.
How was that ling runby a fail? That single ling that passed got necessary intel to perfectly counter the early DT harass.
Isnt DT harass a STANDARD play? as in you dont need to scout it you assume its coming? Effort spent alot of money early game on lings and lost most of them for basically no gain. He coulda sacrificed an overlord to get the same scouting information that he wasted 6+lings for
I dont think effort intend to scout using those lings. He wants to win right away by destroying many probes. Normally he only make 6-8 lings.
On December 29 2009 21:18 Blaz3k wrote: It's stupid how zerg can lose 30 drones and still stay in a game for so long. If toss looses 10 drones its GG in the next 5min.
If a toss lose 10 drones when he's on 3 base to 4 base, then no, he doesn't gg the next 5 minutes. He'd even have a chance to win.
Even though Effort was fending off Jangbi's attacks, he really had no chance. You can easily see the incredibly late hive and his inability to get his 5th base AFTER Jangbi got his 5th. Lurkerling maybe awesome for defense, but it doesn't pressure the toss at all.
On December 29 2009 21:18 Blaz3k wrote: It's stupid how zerg can lose 30 drones and still stay in a game for so long. If toss looses 10 drones its GG in the next 5min.
If a toss lose 10 drones when he's on 3 base to 4 base, then no, he doesn't gg the next 5 minutes. He'd even have a chance to win.
Even though Effort was fending off Jangbi's attacks, he really had no chance. You can easily see the incredibly late hive and his inability to get his 5th base AFTER Jangbi got his 5th. Lurkerling maybe awesome for defense, but it doesn't pressure the toss at all.
Yes, this is what happened. You could see it as defending for the sake of defending, not for winning.
On December 29 2009 21:09 MountainDewJunkie wrote: ling run by imba crackling imba lurker defense imba psi storm imba reaver/archon late game imba
PvZ is somehow imba every minute of the game, alternating between each race. Sounds like any non-mirror to me. But seriously, stop saying imba all the damn time. Especially on a P>Z map.
Nah, we weren't saying that's imba, just that it's annoying.
The word imba was used, learn to read:
\I will admit that. I was surprised at effort's macro. But this imba is rather annoying me as a p player.
I'm a huge EffOrt fan, but by all accounts he played amazing, and only got beaten because JangBi ate some magic donuts before the game. Whatever, EffOrt is still a ZvP god.
Most annoyed about sKyHigh though. We all know how good this kid can be and he just refuses to show it. Movie has lost two in a row now as well.
I opened up the results menu and the first thing I saw made me sad. I wanted to close it right there and then, but I found the strength and bravery to look further and I am no longer sad.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
He plays standard really well and consistently is what u r trying to tell me. Which is basically exactly what I posted. He plays like a super robot and that is why I don''t like him that much.
How did he become a front runner developing zvp play,??? What innovation did he make? He just takes what has been proven works and does a damn good job of recreating it in his play but that is why his zvz is so random because what works is usually luck based BO.
He is smart and top tier for doing what works very well. But he is in no way a strategical genius if he doesn't show a lot of creativity.
i take it you don't like flash very much
I like Flash. He is capable of going nuts and going for unorthodox builds, creativity or cheese. as he has shown before many times in the past. There is personality behind his play.
Its not that i hate Effort, I just wish he'd show something out of the ordinary or has something about his play that when people watch it they go" that's so Effort".
happy that stork lost, jangbi and great won. Not happy that turn lost, but hes shown a lot of potential and all rookies have a hard time adjusting, so what can ya say. I still have faith he can go somewhere.
On December 30 2009 03:12 yhnmk wrote: happy that stork lost, jangbi and great won. Not happy that turn lost, but hes shown a lot of potential and all rookies have a hard time adjusting, so what can ya say. I still have faith he can go somewhere.
I think hydra winning should be noted too.
I am surprised a newbie knows how to counter 2 port wraith perfectly.
On December 30 2009 03:12 yhnmk wrote: happy that stork lost, jangbi and great won. Not happy that turn lost, but hes shown a lot of potential and all rookies have a hard time adjusting, so what can ya say. I still have faith he can go somewhere.
I think hydra winning should be noted too.
I am surprised a newbie knows how to counter 2 port wraith perfectly.
Wait for terran to overcommit while playing it safe yourself? Perfectly executed!
Even though I'm happy for samsung my fantasy team got completely raped because of this game, (Movie and stork losing). Oh well, at least Samsung got revenge.
On December 30 2009 03:12 yhnmk wrote: happy that stork lost, jangbi and great won. Not happy that turn lost, but hes shown a lot of potential and all rookies have a hard time adjusting, so what can ya say. I still have faith he can go somewhere.
I think hydra winning should be noted too.
I am surprised a newbie knows how to counter 2 port wraith perfectly.
Wait for terran to overcommit while playing it safe yourself? Perfectly executed!
Watch last season Leta's opponents. So many zergs (A-A+ ones included) did the wrong thing.
On December 30 2009 02:55 lone_hydra wrote: I opened up the results menu and the first thing I saw made me sad. I wanted to close it right there and then, but I found the strength and bravery to look further and I am no longer sad.
On December 29 2009 05:03 lone_hydra wrote: Stork... you gonna show us your revolutionary PvZ? Or you gonna save it for the next starleague and get rolled but mass mutas again?
Protoss losing to mutas is about the worst thing that can happen imo
so boring..it's like, "gj you won without doing a single thing"
effort plays nothing like shine, he goes standard almost every game and wins with mechanics
That is why I am not a big fan of Effort. He overwhelms opponents with mechanics and wins even though he makes strategical mistakes here and there. I'd like him more if he shows out of the ordinary stuff sometimes or if his play feels more genious rather than super robot. But I guess that's what makes him such a ZvP beast.
hmm actually compared to crap zergs like yellow/luxury/shine/kwanro effort is a strategical genius.
Every single game he has a plan that goes from 4 drones to 40 and from 3 base to five and six.
He has been a front runner in developing zvp standard play over the last six months (only behind jaedong) and zvt he is the only zerg in the world right now with a consistent midgame AND lategame plan.
Anybody who wants to learn how zerg should be played needs to watch effort his understanding and lategame in both zvp and zvt are insanely deep not to mention he is a mechanical genius with 100 less apm then jaedong ..... I mean really ... how is that even possible ...
He plays standard really well and consistently is what u r trying to tell me. Which is basically exactly what I posted. He plays like a super robot and that is why I don''t like him that much.
How did he become a front runner developing zvp play,??? What innovation did he make? He just takes what has been proven works and does a damn good job of recreating it in his play but that is why his zvz is so random because what works is usually luck based BO.
He is smart and top tier for doing what works very well. But he is in no way a strategical genius if he doesn't show a lot of creativity.
i take it you don't like flash very much
I like Flash. He is capable of going nuts and going for unorthodox builds, creativity or cheese. as he has shown before many times in the past. There is personality behind his play.
Its not that i hate Effort, I just wish he'd show something out of the ordinary or has something about his play that when people watch it they go" that's so Effort".
EffOrt does have his own style though. In ZvP especially, he's really brought back into the mainstream that four-gas-power-hive play, that got supplanted by Jaedong's aggressive lair play.
There's usually a moment in his ZvP's where the protoss has this huge army, and EffOrt just has a few sunkens, and some lings and lurkers, and he breaks out the devil juice, slows the protoss, and next thing you know, there are lings and ultras all over the map. In the great game against Stork in the playoffs, people ciriticize stork for attacking EffOrt's nat, but if he continues to delay, EffOrt was right at that moment of explosion that he usually rolls his opponents with anyway.
I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
I like Turn, but it was dumb to all-in with the wraiths like that. He could have easily expanded and transitioned into bio after getting an advantage from the wraiths
On December 30 2009 05:03 Kreedit wrote: I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
It's one game.....
Man people these days are SOO quick to call slump it's really amazing. Yes he lost very badly but it is possible for a guy to just have a bad day and nothing more.
On December 30 2009 05:03 Kreedit wrote: I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
It's one game.....
Man people these days are SOO quick to call slump it's really amazing. Yes he lost very badly but it is possible for a guy to just have a bad day and nothing more.
Hey im not calling it a slump... when i say decline i mean compared to the otherwise stellar month stork has had(yeah he lost vs shine but whateva).
As i wrote earlier its the way he lost that had me worried but youre proably right just a bad day and all... i hope
On December 30 2009 11:26 GTR wrote: mrhoon told me that korean netizens have rated great vs skyhigh one of the 'worst games in korean e-sports history'
Damn, I am more excited to see the VOD for that game now then Jangbi vs. Effort. Am I weird?
On December 30 2009 11:26 GTR wrote: mrhoon told me that korean netizens have rated great vs skyhigh one of the 'worst games in korean e-sports history'
Damn, I am more excited to see the VOD for that game now then Jangbi vs. Effort. Am I weird?
On December 30 2009 11:26 GTR wrote: mrhoon told me that korean netizens have rated great vs skyhigh one of the 'worst games in korean e-sports history'
Hey. At least it isn't the most disappointing game in korean e-sports history.
On December 30 2009 05:03 Kreedit wrote: I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
It's one game.....
Man people these days are SOO quick to call slump it's really amazing. Yes he lost very badly but it is possible for a guy to just have a bad day and nothing more.
Hey im not calling it a slump... when i say decline i mean compared to the otherwise stellar month stork has had(yeah he lost vs shine but whateva).
As i wrote earlier its the way he lost that had me worried but youre proably right just a bad day and all... i hope
Lol Stork's PvZ remains terribad. If he can make it to the mid-late game without some horrible deficit, Stork can usually bring it home due to sheer mechanics and great management skills. Stork's actual game sense in PvZ is still pretty shockingly bad. Him and Best are similarly inept at PvZ, with Stork being slightly smarter.
On December 30 2009 05:03 Kreedit wrote: I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
It's one game.....
Man people these days are SOO quick to call slump it's really amazing. Yes he lost very badly but it is possible for a guy to just have a bad day and nothing more.
Hey im not calling it a slump... when i say decline i mean compared to the otherwise stellar month stork has had(yeah he lost vs shine but whateva).
As i wrote earlier its the way he lost that had me worried but youre proably right just a bad day and all... i hope
Lol Stork's PvZ remains terribad. If he can make it to the mid-late game without some horrible deficit, Stork can usually bring it home due to sheer mechanics and great management skills. Stork's actual game sense in PvZ is still pretty shockingly bad. Him and Best are similarly inept at PvZ, with Stork being slightly smarter.
You talk none sense. You are insulting every protoss progamer except maybe Kal and Bisu lol
I think Stork was just down due to the fact that he just got kicked out of the OSL. Add to it that he is out of the MSL and you can understand that he might not be on top and do that sloppy misstake.
And as for Effort, was it really that brilliant? I mean burrowing lurkers and then sending in all his lings when toss attacks.....seem like something a D- zerg would have done aswell.
Just saw the Great vs SkyHigh game. I see why the netizens think it sucks. Nothing happened. Skyhigh just milled around like a lost child in the middle of the map while Great calmly took 4 gas and pumped ultras. Skyhigh had like ONE attempt to attack which was quickly stopped by a swarm. That was it lol. Then he just took it up the butt from defiler/ultra/ling. It was like Skyhigh showed up solely to go through the motions.
On December 30 2009 05:03 Kreedit wrote: I really hope the way stork lost doesnt signal a decline.
Losing vs shine on a zerg friendly map pool didnt worry me but now seing stork fuck up his cannon timing so badly even though he scouted correctly makes me a bit nervous over his future.
When was the last time stork screwed up so badly vs Z?
I remember his vZ being painfully awfull at one point(his early-mid game late game hes always been great) but i cant think of any game he played where he scouted correctly and STILL let the zerg do a runby.
It's one game.....
Man people these days are SOO quick to call slump it's really amazing. Yes he lost very badly but it is possible for a guy to just have a bad day and nothing more.
Hey im not calling it a slump... when i say decline i mean compared to the otherwise stellar month stork has had(yeah he lost vs shine but whateva).
As i wrote earlier its the way he lost that had me worried but youre proably right just a bad day and all... i hope
Lol Stork's PvZ remains terribad. If he can make it to the mid-late game without some horrible deficit, Stork can usually bring it home due to sheer mechanics and great management skills. Stork's actual game sense in PvZ is still pretty shockingly bad. Him and Best are similarly inept at PvZ, with Stork being slightly smarter.
You talk none sense. You are insulting every protoss progamer except maybe Kal and Bisu lol
I talk none sense yet Stork says the same thing about Protoss players in his own interviews.
On December 31 2009 02:09 StorkHwaiting wrote: Just saw the Great vs SkyHigh game. I see why the netizens think it sucks. Nothing happened. Skyhigh just milled around like a lost child in the middle of the map while Great calmly took 4 gas and pumped ultras. Skyhigh had like ONE attempt to attack which was quickly stopped by a swarm. That was it lol. Then he just took it up the butt from defiler/ultra/ling. It was like Skyhigh showed up solely to go through the motions.
Yeah :\ Great forgot to get queens for infesting though.
It always amazes me when people say retarded garbage like "Effort is all mechanics". Are you serious? Do you guys play the game at all?
Effort makes extremely good decisions throughout the game and like someone said he has a plan from 4 Drones to 40 every single time. I don't think he's "all mechanics" because he let DTs kill a bunch of Drones - it has happened to everyone. Overall Effort's game sense is amazing and he's demonstrated the best late game sense of any Zerg in the world. JD's miiiiight be better but because of his style he doesn't show it as much.
Stop talking BS because he dropped leagues or one game and watch the games, ugh. I don't always agree with Idra and Artosis but it is really frustrating when people are retarded and say stuff like "so Effort burrowed Lurkers and attacked with Lings sounds like something anyone would do" that is IDIOTIC.
No other Zerg would have done that as well except maybe JD, that is a fact and if you don't believe me go watch the last 10 ZvPs played by Effort, JD, Zero, Calm, Lux/Yarnc, July, etc.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5125/finishedimagesmall.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6563/thelineuppng.png)
Stork vs 
EffOrt on Neo Moon Glaive
sKyHigh on Fighting Spirit![[image loading]](http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6526/predictionspng.png)
![[image loading]](http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9114/resultspng.png)
![[image loading]](http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1968/reccomendedgames.png)
![[image loading]](http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8997/howtowatchpng.png)
Effort's win streak is beast. but then again, streaks were made to be broken...
![[image loading]](http://i48.tinypic.com/2zek0f8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/25sszzm.gif)
