fantasy < Neo Tornado > sKyHigh Bisu < Neo Heartbreak Ridge > Hydra Canata < Neo Moon Glaive > EffOrt Thezerg < Match Point > Movie fantasy < Outsider SE > Effort
On paper this looks like it should go to ACE pretty comfortably
Fantasy is playing a TvT vs a slumping Skyhigh Bisu is taking on some B team zerg Effort should take down Canata but i expect a pretty good game (aside: poor canata. Jaedong and now Effort) thezerg blows on any map besides Battle Royale ACE should be fantasy vs Effort Bisu could go out as well but fantasy has a statistically better chance vs a "good" zerg on Outsider
Fantasy has shown some pretty shaky and unreliable play vZ in his past few games, getting beaten by Killer who is known to lose to B team Terrans frequently. There is a damn high chance Effort is gonna be sent for ace and also a pretty high chance Bisu will be sent as well.
This is an awesome day of match-ups. I would've said that the KT v. CJ game would be more interesting on paper, but I forgot the fairy dust of awesome that CJ breaks out once a round for the PL leaders.
So we have this!
fantasy v. sKyHigh This is actually a MU I hate to call, because fantasy is my second favorite player, and I have him on my FPL team. This should be the most important match of the night for both teams, because this is the closest on the surface. sKyHigh has been slumping terribly, but is coming off of an important win. His recent string off losses was characterized by his normally rock-solid TvT being thrown off by clever play from his opponents, but against a usually standard, strong TvT player like fantasy, sKyHigh has a chance to make a statement. fantasy is another player who isn't looking to hot, but his TvT is not the issue, and he's gone 7-3 in the MU in his last 10. Verdict: Small edge to fantasy : SKT 1 - CJ 0
Bisu v. Hydra Beware Hydra here. While his last PvZ was an inspiring and dynamic victory against hero, Bisu's PvZ is still a little suspect. He has the chance to prove his resurgence in this MU tonight. Hydra has been a ZvZ sniper for CJ so far this season (and has been pretty good at it too) but his ZvP has not been impressive. It'll be interesting to see how Hydra and Bisu deal with the new HBR, and whether there's any effect on the balance of this notorious MU/Map combination. Verdict: Bisushould win. Should. SKT 2 - CJ 0
Canata v. EffOrt Canata's TvZ is actually quite underrated, and while his recent record in the MU looks bad, it starts to seem a whole lot better, when you notice that 4 of his last 5 losses were against Jaedong. Still, if there is one zerg in Korea who could come close to rivaling JD right now, it's probably EffOrt. EffOrt's TvZ has looked as devasting as his ZvP recently albeit against slightly uninspired competition. Still, CJ is not expecting to lose here, and they probably won't. Verdict: EffOrt is the big favorite. SKT 2 - CJ 1
Thezerg v. Movie This season is looking more and more like the one in which Movie steps forward and begins to enter the ranks of the game's more established players. He's playing an opponent whom he was probably heartened to see- Thezerg's ZvP is his strongest MU, but he hasn't played it in months, and "strongest" is relative as his win rate is only 50%. Movie's PvZ is creative, dynamic, and very difficult to counter. To make matters more slanted, Match Point has not been a very helpful map for zergs so far (EffOrt nonwithstanding, of course). Verdict: Movie might be the safest bet tonight, provided he's left his former trademark inconsistency behind for good. SKT 2 - CJ 2
ACE: Hyuk v. sKyHigh SKT and the rest of us will be expecting EffOrt on a map that's slightly zerg favored. But that's why I wouldn't put it past CJ to break out one of their more controversial (see: Dramatic and successful) ACE choices on this map. My thought is that sKyHigh is a likely choice for ACE, as Coach Cho will see both an opportunity to surprise SKT1 and give sKyHigh some needed confidence. I think SKT1 will have Hyuk practicing ZvZ all week to snipe EffOrt again, although Bisu and Fantasy (the latter especially who loves this map) are good choices as well. Verdict: If I've got the MU right, I think sKyHigh will get his win, and CJ will take the match.
On December 09 2009 07:17 tree.hugger wrote: This is an awesome day of match-ups. I would've said that the KT v. CJ game would be more interesting on paper, but I forgot the fairy dust of awesome that CJ breaks out once a round for the PL leaders.
So we have this!
fantasy v. sKyHigh This is actually a MU I hate to call, because fantasy is my second favorite player, and I have him on my FPL team. This should be the most important match of the night for both teams, because this is the closest on the surface. sKyHigh has been slumping terribly, but is coming off of an important win. His recent string off losses was characterized by his normally rock-solid TvT being thrown off by clever play from his opponents, but against a usually standard, strong TvT player like fantasy, sKyHigh has a chance to make a statement. fantasy is another player who isn't looking to hot, but his TvT is not the issue, and he's gone 7-3 in the MU in his last 10. Verdict: Small edge to fantasy : SKT 1 - CJ 0
Bisu v. Hydra Beware Hydra here. While his last PvZ was an inspiring and dynamic victory against hero, Bisu's PvZ is still a little suspect. He has the chance to prove his resurgence in this MU tonight. Hydra has been a ZvZ sniper for CJ so far this season (and has been pretty good at it too) but his ZvP has not been impressive. It'll be interesting to see how Hydra and Bisu deal with the new HBR, and whether there's any effect on the balance of this notorious MU/Map combination. Verdict: Bisushould win. Should. SKT 2 - CJ 0
Canata v. EffOrt Canata's TvZ is actually quite underrated, and while his recent record in the MU looks bad, it starts to seem a whole lot better, when you notice that 4 of his last 5 losses were against Jaedong. Still, if there is one zerg in Korea who could come close to rivaling JD right now, it's probably EffOrt. EffOrt's TvZ has looked as devasting as his ZvP recently albeit against slightly uninspired competition. Still, CJ is not expecting to lose here, and they probably won't. Verdict: EffOrt is the big favorite. SKT 2 - CJ 1
Thezerg v. Movie This season is looking more and more like the one in which Movie steps forward and begins to enter the ranks of the game's more established players. He's playing an opponent whom he was probably heartened to see- Thezerg's ZvP is his strongest MU, but he hasn't played it in months, and "strongest" is relative as his win rate is only 50%. Movie's PvZ is creative, dynamic, and very difficult to counter. To make matters more slanted, Match Point has not been a very helpful map for zergs so far (EffOrt nonwithstanding, of course). Verdict: Movie might be the safest bet tonight, provided he's left his former trademark inconsistency behind for good. SKT 2 - CJ 2
ACE: Hyuk v. sKyHigh SKT and the rest of us will be expecting EffOrt on a map that's slightly zerg favored. But that's why I wouldn't put it past CJ to break out one of their more controversial (see: Dramatic and successful) ACE choices on this map. My thought is that sKyHigh is a likely choice for ACE, as Coach Cho will see both an opportunity to surprise SKT1 and give sKyHigh some needed confidence. I think SKT1 will have Hyuk practicing ZvZ all week to snipe EffOrt again, although Bisu and Fantasy (the latter especially who loves this map) are good choices as well. Verdict: If I've got the MU right, I think sKyHigh will get his win, and CJ will take the match.
I think the ace match has got to be Fantasy vs. Effort. Terran has a good chance v. Zerg on this map, and you have to believe that CJ is sending out their best zerg. Skyhigh is too much of a risk given his performance in the past month.
On December 09 2009 07:41 Slow Motion wrote: I think the ace match has got to be Fantasy vs. Effort. Terran has a good chance v. Zerg on this map, and you have to believe that CJ is sending out their best zerg. Skyhigh is too much of a risk given his performance in the past month.
yeah, but sending out fantasy against Effort is almost as crazy as sending out fantasy against Flash
That would be the best for my FPL.. and I think that Canata will bunker rush (allin with SVC and 8rax) effort and you know effort is one greedy zerg (12hatch always.)
Anyone < Outsider SE > EffOrt I don't think T1 has anyone who can take out EffOrt... Bisu's losing even to scrubs, fantasy lost to Killer, Hyuk's on a losing streak. I doubt BeSt is good enough at PvZ to beat EffOrt.
T1 just got 3-0'd twice in a row, against teams that should suck. I really hope they can pull out a win here, against the team gave KT both their losses this season...
On December 09 2009 07:58 Pang0lin wrote: 3-2 CJ i guees, Effort should have this.
If it does go to ace, I'd like to see Effort vs. Bisu. Bisu does have a flawless record vs. Effort.
To be fair, EffOrt did beat Bisu at IEF in a really good game.
He's also only lost 1 ZvP since he lost to Bisu. I say it's time for a rematch.
Effort was on his crazy insane, Best 27 games ever streak, and Bisu still beat him pretty easily. Ofc, I think he's improved, but I thought so last time.
EffOrt and Movie will win, hopefully going to be a good ace match, and not Hyuk vs. EffOrt. I'm also hoping that 815 will lose to ggaemo so that there's the chance of a Flash vs. Jaedong ace.
It's not that bad... But all my stuff starts lagging when I stream T_T Windows Vista Core 2 Quad 2.34 GHz 6 GB RAM Obviously 64 bit so I can actually use the RAM
Was this made recently or a long while ago? I haven't seen this before. This looks very well done. How the characters look, the layout, the angles chosen for each panel...very nice
Was this made recently or a long while ago? I haven't seen this before. This looks very well done. How the characters look, the layout, the angles chosen for each panel...very nice
It's not that bad... But all my stuff starts lagging when I stream T_T Windows Vista Core 2 Quad 2.34 GHz 6 GB RAM Obviously 64 bit so I can actually use the RAM
lol i have 4gb ram and i don't lag, even though i use vista 64 bit as well o_O
It's not that bad... But all my stuff starts lagging when I stream T_T Windows Vista Core 2 Quad 2.34 GHz 6 GB RAM Obviously 64 bit so I can actually use the RAM
lol i have 4gb ram and i don't lag, even though i use vista 64 bit as well o_O
Wraiths make huge difference in that fight, allowing Fantasy to 2-hit tanks. Skyhigh has a much faster 3rd base as well, Fanta get 1 vulture into it, but only 1 SCV there atm
Ok aside from that, skyhigh pushing in and establishing a tank line. +2 for him and only +1 for fantasy. He's taking a fourth and fantasy is trying to do the same.
nice landed barracks delays fantasy's expo. Fanta runs some SCV's through tanks but doesnt lose to many surprisingly. HUGE MINE TAKES OUT 4 OF SKYHIGHS TANKS.
On December 09 2009 13:30 Chen wrote: oh my god, HORRIBLE TIME to unsiege for Skyhigh, loses about 5 tanks because of it. SCV'S FROM FANTASY KILL OFF SKYHIGHS CC
i guess it was the goliah more than the 2 scvs....
On December 09 2009 13:30 Chen wrote: oh my god, HORRIBLE TIME to unsiege for Skyhigh, loses about 5 tanks because of it. SCV'S FROM FANTASY KILL OFF SKYHIGHS CC
i guess it was the goliah more than the 2 scvs....
SCV's were picking away at it forever, took it to about 2/3 before Gol got there. plus dmg output of SCV's vs Gol isnt that different. 10 for 2 SCV's vs 12 for gol, about the same attack rate. And teh SCV got the kill =)
Skyhigh's edge in dropships is paying off. Fanta on teh defensive so if Skyhigh can keep his base up he should have this. Drop into the undefended natural of Fantasy
On December 09 2009 13:35 tree.hugger wrote: This is swinging in sKyHigh's favor, he's shutting down the 6 o'clock, fantasy's army has evaporated.
TvT is forgiving. Very very close game here.
you mean unforgiving lol
I think he means forgiving. TvT has the most room for error. PvP-lose reavers in shuttle, lose game. ZvZ, mismicro mutas lose game. TvT? lose army, get expos sniped, come back and win. much harder to kill an opponent in TvT than other mirrors.
On December 09 2009 13:35 tree.hugger wrote: This is swinging in sKyHigh's favor, he's shutting down the 6 o'clock, fantasy's army has evaporated.
TvT is forgiving. Very very close game here.
you mean unforgiving lol
Not at all. Mistakes that might doom you in a ZvZ are recoverable in a TvT. There's more of a margin for tactical error, and less for strategic error. For example, sKyHigh lost two armies that game in dumb ways (mines and unsieging) yet he had an economic advantage, and he maintained that, so fantasy was eventually overwhelmed.
Seemed like Fantasy had the edge in the middle when he broke that contain, but Skyhigh had more bases, and kept them up while whittling away Fantasy's army (which he didn't really push out with) and eventually Skyhigh just had the base + unit advantage.
On December 09 2009 13:35 tree.hugger wrote: This is swinging in sKyHigh's favor, he's shutting down the 6 o'clock, fantasy's army has evaporated.
TvT is forgiving. Very very close game here.
you mean unforgiving lol
I think he means forgiving. TvT has the most room for error. PvP-lose reavers in shuttle, lose game. ZvZ, mismicro mutas lose game. TvT? lose army, get expos sniped, come back and win. much harder to kill an opponent in TvT than other mirrors.
Oh.. yeah. Lol right, no idea what I'm talking about, got mixed up :p
On December 09 2009 13:35 tree.hugger wrote: This is swinging in sKyHigh's favor, he's shutting down the 6 o'clock, fantasy's army has evaporated.
TvT is forgiving. Very very close game here.
you mean unforgiving lol
I think he means forgiving. TvT has the most room for error. PvP-lose reavers in shuttle, lose game. ZvZ, mismicro mutas lose game. TvT? lose army, get expos sniped, come back and win. much harder to kill an opponent in TvT than other mirrors.
Right. Part of the reason TvTs often drag on for so long is that it's entirely feasible to recover from situations that would be instant ggs in any other matchup (in the other two mirror matchups, at least).
fantasy had much easier drop access to skyhigh's main and could siege main turrets from his expo. it was a positional advantage for fantasy, he just didnt take advantage of it.
On December 09 2009 13:48 IdrA wrote: fantasy had much easier drop access to skyhigh's main and could siege main turrets from his expo. it was a positional advantage for fantasy, he just didnt take advantage of it.
Was he afraid of sKyHigh expanding too rapidly across the map? Or ceding the middle?
It seemed he had a significantly larger army, and never really tried to threaten sKyHigh with it.
On December 09 2009 14:00 Chen wrote: LOL, I THOUGHT BISU WAS GOING TO LOSE THERE. speedlots own the hydras
For someone who's nick is hydra, he seems awful at microing hydras...
how was he awful? bisu didn't even micro and won the battle, hydra atleast shifted his hydras back at the right time, but bisu sent in reinforcements. 15 speedlots vs 20 hydras is gg for hydras, even if jaedong has them.
did Hydra think he didnt need lurkers? i thought in ZvP you muta-snipe templar then go for 1a2a3a hydras. if that doesnt work you fall back on lurkers and obs sniping until you get defiler tech.
Phew man was I worried there when Bisu lost his first shuttle (which is starting to become a Bisu trademark, he really seems to hate his shuttles). Not sure it would have worked out the way it did vs a stronger Zerg.
On December 09 2009 14:09 Chen wrote: did Hydra think he didnt need lurkers? i thought in ZvP you muta-snipe templar then go for 1a2a3a hydras. if that doesnt work you fall back on lurkers and obs sniping until you get defiler tech.
Seemed to me that Bisu going Corsair/Reaver made Hydra delay his hydralisk production bit a bit to make scourge and static defence. Is that why Bisu pretty much rolled his Hydra army with Speedlots?
On December 09 2009 14:10 Chen wrote: wow, SKT is screwed now >> Canata vs Effort, non-Hyuk SKT1 zerg vs Movie... GG Bisu-Effort ace woulda been sweet
Hyuk has lost his last 4 ZvP. To the same builds.
well 2 have been those weird reaver builds that just caught him off guard and the other two were ZvZ BO losses, he still has potential, more than thefuckingzerg
On December 09 2009 14:10 NguN wrote: Seemed to me that Bisu going Corsair/Reaver made Hydra delay his hydralisk production bit a bit to make scourge and static defence. Is that why Bisu pretty much rolled his Hydra army with Speedlots?
CH engaged Bisu to soon, he probably did not expect Bisu to have as many Speedzeals as he did, if had waited a minute or 2 he would probably have reach some kind of critical mass of hydras that speedzeals+reavers just aint gonna be able to stop.
On December 09 2009 14:16 No_eL wrote: Gj Bisu!! you're the most realiable protoss ever =)
i want an ace match, but i really like movie's playstyle.
wtf? he's not reliable man
who is competing with him? Stork? Jangbi? Best? Kal? Free? maybe Ra if you go that far back but hes the most reliable in recent memory imo.
Just because other Protoss aren't reliable right now either, doesn't mean Bisu is.
Kang Min fighting!
well, he kinda said most reliable protoss, so the whole judgement is relative. therefore yeah, it does matter how the others are doing. Plus Bisu was like 52-10 last proleague season, which is pretty damn reliable
On December 09 2009 14:16 No_eL wrote: Gj Bisu!! you're the most realiable protoss ever =)
i want an ace match, but i really like movie's playstyle.
wtf? he's not reliable man
who is competing with him? Stork? Jangbi? Best? Kal? Free? maybe Ra if you go that far back but hes the most reliable in recent memory imo.
Just because other Protoss aren't reliable right now either, doesn't mean Bisu is.
Kang Min fighting!
well, he kinda said most reliable protoss, so the whole judgement is relative. therefore yeah, it does matter how the others are doing. Plus Bisu was like 52-10 last proleague season, which is pretty damn reliable
that may very well be, but im kind of afraid that broodwar could take a hit when SC2 comes out. im hoping it doesnt though, but i want the new game to flourish like this did...
anyway my point it, i wonder if proleague has more than another 2 years in it
nice counter, gets teh academy and some tanks out in the mid, nvm those tanks are pretty buff. Effort has no defense now so if Canata commits he could do a shitton of damage here. Lurkers spawn in time to defend tho.
that muta tech switch really did not work out well for Effort, perhaps he expected more of a mech army to roll out? Early vessels + MnM transition mopped up all those mutas pretty easily.
On December 09 2009 14:16 No_eL wrote: Gj Bisu!! you're the most realiable protoss ever =)
i want an ace match, but i really like movie's playstyle.
wtf? he's not reliable man
who is competing with him? Stork? Jangbi? Best? Kal? Free? maybe Ra if you go that far back but hes the most reliable in recent memory imo.
Just because other Protoss aren't reliable right now either, doesn't mean Bisu is.
Kang Min fighting!
well, he kinda said most reliable protoss, so the whole judgement is relative. therefore yeah, it does matter how the others are doing. Plus Bisu was like 52-10 last proleague season, which is pretty damn reliable
That counterattack didn't do enough damage, and his plan to stall with lurker/ling failed. If he kept those mutas alive it would've been much different I'd say.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
On December 09 2009 14:37 JWD wrote: that muta tech switch really did not work out well for Effort, perhaps he expected more of a mech army to roll out? Early vessels + MnM transition mopped up all those mutas pretty easily.
That mutalisk switch cost him badly. I guess he was expecting mech,
Also why was the spire so late? If he had got the spire as soon as the lair finished, he couldve scourge scouted the mnm,
Which stream are people watching? I'm kind of switching between streams, but they're all quite jerky for me, and kind of giving me a headache.
BTW, go Canata!!! Awesome build. The key, for idiot Fantasy, is not to get scouted! Effort went for hydra/lurker, which was totally owned by a siege tank heavy army.
On December 09 2009 14:38 iamho wrote: i think effort was expecting pure mech or something, then didn't notice the tech switch until it was too late to get defilers
Wrong. Effort saw the dual e-bays yet still went Mutas.
No reason to go Mutas anyway if your opponent is producing out of his FRONT RAX???
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
On December 09 2009 14:40 Random_0 wrote: Which stream are people watching? I'm kind of switching between streams, but they're all quite jerky for me, and kind of giving me a headache.
BTW, go Canata!!! Awesome build. The key, for idiot Fantasy, is not to get scouted! Effort went for hydra/lurker, which was totally owned by a siege tank heavy army.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
2 hatch muta isnt a hard counter to fast tech, its not really even a soft counter. the fantasy build just wasnt that solid in general once everyone learned the timings and got used to fighting a mech army.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
2 hatch muta isnt a hard counter to fast tech, its not really even a soft counter. the fantasy build just wasnt that solid in general once everyone learned the timings and got used to fighting a mech army.
O.o so how does a terran counter 2-hatch mutas with that build? did Fantasy just react badly to it? cause it seems like irradiate isnt in time for 2-hatch mutas and you have no AA other than marines out of 1rax
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
Canata never lost to 2 hatch muta with that strategy. Fantasy did lose to shine for doing the build incorrectly, outside of that he has also beaten 2 hatch muta every/nearly every time with that strategy.
2 hatch muta does not own those types of builds, please don't spread absurd statements.
Effort stayed on lair an unusually long time not sure what he was thinking. Normally you rush hive as fast as you can vs those strategies but I guess Effort didn't think Fantasy would push out at that timing?
On December 09 2009 14:43 meeple wrote: Canata had no idea about the ninja expo either...
I'm sure he knew about it, he just knew he had the upper hand, and stuck with it.
Even if he didn't know, it wasn't going to stop that push. Not on lair tech...
I STILL don't get how fantasy can be so average (51%?!?!?) at TvZ with oov and boxer working so closely with him... Even Canata has (statistically) better TvZ! I don't get this.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
Canata never lost to 2 hatch muta with that strategy. Fantasy did lose to shine for doing the build incorrectly, outside of that he has also beaten 2 hatch muta every/nearly every time with that strategy.
2 hatch muta does not own those types of builds, please don't spread absurd statements.
Effort stayed on lair an unusually long time not sure what he was thinking. Normally you rush hive as fast as you can vs those strategies but I guess Effort didn't think Fantasy would push out at that timing?
sorry, i play toss so i dont know this MU that well, just based statements on what i saw in the Fantasy-shine game But how does a terran counter 2-hatch mutas with that build? did Fantasy just react badly to it? cause it seems like irradiate isnt in time for 2-hatch mutas and you have no AA other than marines out of 1rax
I'm not sure how smart that all-in was on the part of Effort. He lost a whole lot of mutas and hydras for relatively little. He should have kept his army mobile and waited for the advantage from his third to kick in, getting defilers.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
Canata never lost to 2 hatch muta with that strategy. Fantasy did lose to shine for doing the build incorrectly, outside of that he has also beaten 2 hatch muta every/nearly every time with that strategy.
2 hatch muta does not own those types of builds, please don't spread absurd statements.
Effort stayed on lair an unusually long time not sure what he was thinking. Normally you rush hive as fast as you can vs those strategies but I guess Effort didn't think Fantasy would push out at that timing?
sorry, i play toss so i dont know this MU that well, just based statements on what i saw in the Fantasy-shine game But how does a terran counter 2-hatch mutas with that build? did Fantasy just react badly to it? cause it seems like irradiate isnt in time for 2-hatch mutas and you have no AA other than marines out of 1rax
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
Canata never lost to 2 hatch muta with that strategy. Fantasy did lose to shine for doing the build incorrectly, outside of that he has also beaten 2 hatch muta every/nearly every time with that strategy.
2 hatch muta does not own those types of builds, please don't spread absurd statements.
Effort stayed on lair an unusually long time not sure what he was thinking. Normally you rush hive as fast as you can vs those strategies but I guess Effort didn't think Fantasy would push out at that timing?
sorry, i play toss so i dont know this MU that well, just based statements on what i saw in the Fantasy-shine game But how does a terran counter 2-hatch mutas with that build? did Fantasy just react badly to it? cause it seems like irradiate isnt in time for 2-hatch mutas and you have no AA other than marines out of 1rax
That was one long delay between double posts
Terran counters 2 Hatch by using that wraith to make the Zerg guard his overlords for as long as possible. You use that time to get that e-bay and turrets up.
On December 09 2009 14:36 Slow Motion wrote: Mediocre execution of a brilliant strat wins.
Brilliant strats aren't auto-gg's against two hatch muta. It looks like SKT put a little more thought into that build though, perhaps we'll see it again?
every build order has either a soft counter or hard counter.... remember the Fantasy build? it was fucking rape until zerg learned to hard-counter it. 2-hatch muta owns really fast tech, no way around it, sometimes you gotta cut corners and hope.
Canata never lost to 2 hatch muta with that strategy. Fantasy did lose to shine for doing the build incorrectly, outside of that he has also beaten 2 hatch muta every/nearly every time with that strategy.
2 hatch muta does not own those types of builds, please don't spread absurd statements.
Effort stayed on lair an unusually long time not sure what he was thinking. Normally you rush hive as fast as you can vs those strategies but I guess Effort didn't think Fantasy would push out at that timing?
sorry, i play toss so i dont know this MU that well, just based statements on what i saw in the Fantasy-shine game But how does a terran counter 2-hatch mutas with that build? did Fantasy just react badly to it? cause it seems like irradiate isnt in time for 2-hatch mutas and you have no AA other than marines out of 1rax
Instead of analyzing the meta-game, take a look at the player.
20 lings for 1 templar. letting that one storm woulda been better >> if this isnt a lurker drop for theZerg its GG. and Movie spots it so its probably GG either way.
On December 09 2009 15:00 sharkeyanti wrote: so what did we learn from this match?
1) chogulings aren't useful scouts when the default path of enemy units is out of their LoS 2) evo chambers should be in front of sunkens, not the other way around 3) T1 Zergs are still awesome
Well, even though SKT coach knows his shit and knows that CJ will probably send out a zerg -> hyuk's S-class zvz, still zvz is so random. Better choices would have been found in Bisu and Fantasy for sure.
I'm not going to say that Bisu definitely would have given T1 a better shot at this match, but he would have put on a much better show than we're about to see.
On December 09 2009 15:06 JWD wrote: I'm not going to say that Bisu definitely would have given T1 a better shot at this match, but he would have put on a much better show than we're about to see.
ZvZ is a huge letdown.
Seeing how well he did against Shine and Bogus. . .
On December 09 2009 15:06 Mystlord wrote: WOW. On the replay... theZerg has SUCH bad luck. Three units just BARELY missing that attack.
Probably should have been prepared to defend his 3rd though, it was bad play from the start.
yeah and the only reason that at least one of those units missed the attack is because it was out of position. Not really an excuse…as a progamer you really need to be good enough to make sure that you will see units coming out of your opponent's choke.
On December 09 2009 15:06 WheelOfTime wrote: WTF hyuk for ace?
Well, even though SKT coach knows his shit and knows that CJ will probably send out a zerg -> hyuk's S-class zvz, still zvz is so random. Better choices would have been found in Bisu and Fantasy for sure.
Not Fantasy vs a Zerg, Fantasy's a game short of falling below 50% in the matchup.
CJ should've brought Idra and sent him out for ace; I'm pretty sure he would've beaten Hyuk 10 games out of 10. Hyuk's ZvT is so retarded. Effort vs Hyuk is pretty much 50/50.
On December 09 2009 15:10 Holgerius wrote: CJ should've brought Idra and sent him out for ace; I'm pretty sure he would've beaten Hyuk 10 games out of 10. Hyuk's ZvT is so retarded. Effort vs Hyuk is pretty much 50/50.
I read some old draft threads, and people were gushing about Hyuk's ZvT before he was drafted.
On December 09 2009 15:08 ccou wrote: I just got home from a blizzard, what's happened in the past 4 games?
Skyhigh-Fantasy semi-standard TvT, not alot to say Bisu-Hydra failed Reaver harass into successful 2-reaver harass into 3-base protoss raping 3-base zerg. Effort-Canata Canata goes for that one of everything build, Effort backstabs but only kills an academy, Huge M&M and tank with vessel army runs over Efforts nat and kills the main. Movie-TheZerg thezerg puts his Evo chamber BEHIND HIS SUNKEN. sunk gets sniped and speedlots kill everything at the third due to horrible micro,
On December 09 2009 15:10 Holgerius wrote: CJ should've brought Idra and sent him out for ace; I'm pretty sure he would've beaten Hyuk 10 games out of 10. Hyuk's ZvT is so retarded. Effort vs Hyuk is pretty much 50/50.
On December 09 2009 15:10 Holgerius wrote: CJ should've brought Idra and sent him out for ace; I'm pretty sure he would've beaten Hyuk 10 games out of 10. Hyuk's ZvT is so retarded. Effort vs Hyuk is pretty much 50/50.
I read some old draft threads, and people were gushing about Hyuk's ZvT before he was drafted.
His ZvT in replays is fucking off the charts good. It is his terrible tv games that dashed our hopes!
If Movie had to prepare for his game versus Jaedong, he wouldn't have a problem playing against thezerg since he only needed to prepare for PvZ ... I don't quite see your logic there =)
On December 09 2009 15:18 nayumi wrote: If Movie had to prepare for his game versus Jaedong, he wouldn't have a problem playing against thezerg since he only needed to prepare for PvZ ... I don't quite see your logic there =)
he can't reveal his build vs jaedong? i dunno what i was thinking
overpool really only beats 12pool if your control is better then the other guys. That or you cut drones at 12 and save for second hat and play 1base 2 hat faster spire with extra gas. Otherwise it is horrible.
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
On December 09 2009 15:26 Hyde wrote: At least this time SKT didn't go 3-0...what's happening to SKT...
1) Fantasy is sucking, especially against zergs. 2) Bisu isn't reliable enough to play in ace matches given his current form. 3) Not playing Best. 4) Hyuk has reverted to sucking.
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
At that point in the game though, where Effort clearly didn't have a ling advantage, wouldn't it have been obviously better to expand?
Not to mention that if you're trying to hit his economy with your Mutas, you're trying to equalize, so the risk would outweigh the benefits, especially since Effort's mutas were going to pop at that point.
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
But the alternative is a slow, painful loss.
It depends. At there level yes at more casual gaming levels you can 1 base pump muta and get many muta + drones while sniping lords/lings/drones then expand.
bs was it bo win -_-. hyuk was ahead, effort had what? 2 drones at main and 5 at expo? hyuk shoulda expanded, his lings plus 3 muta could fend off all the ling effort had, he gg'd himself.
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
No one goes overpool anymore. It's strictly 9pool, overgaspool, 12pool expo, and 12hatch.
On December 09 2009 15:29 Coffee wrote: bs was it bo win -_-. hyuk was ahead, effort had what? 2 drones at main and 5 at expo? hyuk shoulda expanded, his lings plus 3 muta could fend off all the ling effort had, he gg'd himself.
that wouldnt have worked, the timing would be off and effort would have more mutas and would've easily won by the time his second gas was up, plus effort would have spores giving his own mutas more mobility
On December 09 2009 15:24 Avidkeystamper wrote: To the Good ZvZ players, why doesn't the opponent of someone who's sporing take an expansion right when mutas pop?
Normally you will have A)not enough money from producing lords + saving for muta b) normally with overpool fast mutas your oppt will have more lings so then your mutas are tied at home while he pulls even farther ahead
At that point in the game though, where Effort clearly didn't have a ling advantage, wouldn't it have been obviously better to expand?
Not to mention that if you're trying to hit his economy with your Mutas, you're trying to equalize, so the risk would outweigh the benefits, especially since Effort's mutas were going to pop at that point.
I was giving a general line of reasoning not at all specific to this game ...
On December 09 2009 15:27 meegrean wrote: Effort won effortlessly.
A BO win will tend to do that for you.
BO advantage, and it's not like Hyuk didn't have his chances after picking off sooooo many of Effort's drones.
how did he have a chance? it was still 2 hatch 2 gas zerg vs 1/2 hatch 1 gas zerg. Correct me if im wrong, but Effort did nothing special to win that game other than getting those 2 scourge hits on those mutas in the middle of the map. Just went 12-pool expand, made spores, forced hyuk to go for a desperate all-in attack which failed.
what a huge disappointment for an ace match between cj and skt. im so fucking sick of zvzs... just imagine a sexy sair/reaver pvz on outsider between bisu and effort... but no, lets send hyuk.
On December 09 2009 15:27 meegrean wrote: Effort won effortlessly.
A BO win will tend to do that for you.
BO advantage, and it's not like Hyuk didn't have his chances after picking off sooooo many of Effort's drones.
how did he have a chance? it was still 2 hatch 2 gas zerg vs 1/2 hatch 1 gas zerg. Correct me if im wrong, but Effort did nothing special to win that game other than getting those 2 scourge hits on those mutas in the middle of the map. Just went 12-pool expand, made spores, forced hyuk to go for a desperate all-in attack which failed.
Hyuk should've expanded. BS about all that throw timings off. Make 3 mutas, ur opponents have no mutas= total map control. This is when Hyuk's spire pops, which is actually pretty early. He would've had a chance.
On December 09 2009 15:29 Coffee wrote: bs was it bo win -_-. hyuk was ahead, effort had what? 2 drones at main and 5 at expo? hyuk shoulda expanded, his lings plus 3 muta could fend off all the ling effort had, he gg'd himself.
2 drones? really? thats exaggerating a little to much. Hyuk only killed like 4-5 of them, Effort had 3 on gas and 4-5 on those protected mineral patches. they were stacked so it didnt look like he had alot. and i think you highly underestimate the time it takes to build an expo, esp relative to ZvZ
On December 09 2009 15:29 Coffee wrote: bs was it bo win -_-. hyuk was ahead, effort had what? 2 drones at main and 5 at expo? hyuk shoulda expanded, his lings plus 3 muta could fend off all the ling effort had, he gg'd himself.
2 drones? really? thats exaggerating a little to much. Hyuk only killed like 4-5 of them, Effort had 3 on gas and 4-5 on those protected mineral patches. they were stacked so it didnt look like he had alot. and i think you highly underestimate the time it takes to build an expo, esp relative to ZvZ
Quoting this once I count the number of drones killed tmw on VOD. I'm going with 7.
On December 09 2009 16:04 dekuschrub wrote: Hyuk probably shouldve expanded the moment he saw that he could snipe lings in efforts main
you either go for a break pretty soon with that build, or you try and expand.
at least thats what I think, ZvZ is really messed up
Also I'm pretty sure that is not a build order win
The larva advantage 12pool has over 9pool is tremendous. By the time mutas arrive the extra hatchery will have spawned eight or nine larva. It's not impossible to win with 9pool, but the 12pooler has to screw up pretty badly, which doesn't happen often any more at the highest levels of play.
Fantasy Lose!!!! I was so *HYPE* for the round 2 1st week, because I thought he could make me lead in Fantasy leaque... Then he lost twice!!!! Oh nossss......
On December 09 2009 23:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Fantasy Lose!!!! I was so *HYPE* for the round 2 1st week, because I thought he could make me lead in Fantasy leaque... Then he lost twice!!!! Oh nossss......
I am so worried...
T_T i had the same hope.. how coudl he lose two game in a row to skyhigh.. I tought his TvT was better then that.. god dam. and to had to the pain, I had skyhigh in my anti-team :,(...
On December 09 2009 23:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Fantasy Lose!!!! I was so *HYPE* for the round 2 1st week, because I thought he could make me lead in Fantasy leaque... Then he lost twice!!!! Oh nossss......
I am so worried...
These things happen when you put your faith into such a gimmicky player :p
imo that TvT was pretty back and forth Fantasy's wraiths in the early-mid game were just sexy taking down 2 dropships but somewhere in the game fantasy's macro just failed him it was a very close game. don't say fantasy is "gimmicky player" he played very solid starcraft Props to SK Terrans (canata + fantasy) they played top notch
...now the zergs and bisu.. -_____- i know bisu won but it was unspectacular losing his first shuttle/reaver and only killing 3 hydras is retarted if Hydra was.. say.. Jaedong? Bisu would've payed for that mistake
On December 11 2009 08:06 lixlix wrote: I think those who think that Bisu had a much better chance than Hyuk of beating Effort are avoiding the statistics.
well. Bisu's PvZ is notoriously strong while all of TL knows that Hyuk is somewhat.. sketchy ahaha
Either Canata, Fantasy or Bisu had a better chance of Effort is a straight up game ZvZ is also notoriously heads or tails
if i was the coach i would've put my faith in either of the three above..
Knowing that CJ will send Effort, Hyuk is not a bad choice at all. CJ's other option would be Movie which Hyuk can potentially snipe, the map is Outsider afterall. Bisu would be a bad choice given how easy it is to simcity on this map and his opponent isn't some B class zerg. Hyuk > Fantasy > Bisu for ace match on Outsider against Effort.
Hyuk's choice in strategy this game.. lol. He saw Effort's spire building, he could had taken an expansion plus he did not lose his zerglings. Played that one too safe as though he was expecting mass lings. With the earlier spire, he could have expanded and gotten the earlier upgrade while sitting on his temporary muta count advantage. Killing the spore colony made the situation even worse.
On December 11 2009 08:06 lixlix wrote: I think those who think that Bisu had a much better chance than Hyuk of beating Effort are avoiding the statistics.
well. Bisu's PvZ is notoriously strong while all of TL knows that Hyuk is somewhat.. sketchy ahaha
Either Canata, Fantasy or Bisu had a better chance of Effort is a straight up game ZvZ is also notoriously heads or tails
if i was the coach i would've put my faith in either of the three above..
Maybe SKT didn't believe they had a better than 50% chance of beating Effort.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/2copy.jpg)
fantasy < Neo Tornado > 
Bisu < Neo Heartbreak Ridge > 
Hydra![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/sktkhanrescopy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/RECsktoz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt161/discwalls/3copy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss98/dissuey/HTWsktkhan.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4295/entusman.png)
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