Flash vs Effort Today's first match pits the ever unsuccessful Ultimate Weapon against CJ's only good zerg (Kwanro doesn't count). Effort was on a tear until his recent breakdown during the last couple weeks of Proleague, but has rebounded well by taking Blizzcon. Okay, so he had to beat Zero at ZvZ, but a win is still a win. Flash on the other hand is coming off a fresh win in GOM, and has been doing rather well recently. With an overall record of 4-1 vs Effort head to head, along with some fairly decent TvZ maps, Flash should be able to take this set 2-1 and set up a match with Bisu in the RO8.
Leta vs Kwanro While I really dislike Leta for some reason, the guy has shown us that he can play TvZ rather well. His 2 port wraiths are by far the best in the business. I personally believe that Kwanro is totally overrated and completely sucks. If the game goes longer than 15 minutes, he stands no chance. I find it a complete monstrosity that Kwanro has found his way into the MSL finals. If there's anything Leta does well, it's destroying rather mediocre players. Since Kwanro is rather mediocre, Leta should have no issue dispatching of the rodent 2-0.
Oh man oh man. Why did this have to be later unlike all the other times with the Masters? 3 Awesome series tonight and I'll be asleep. Dam. Is there a shibal pic for Kwanro?
Flash vs EffOrt - in his mini slump thing, EffOrt was about the only good Zerg (depending on your thinking on the question of July) that Flash did beat. Now Flash actually won something again, the trend should continue. (Also I don't like EffOrt.)
Leta vs Kwanro - Well, Kwanro won their last match on RotK. On the other hand, it's RotK, but at least Leta's not Protoss so it counts a little. This match is kind of a toss-up: Leta's standard m&m isn't bad, but his preferred game recently is gimmicky mech builds. I don't know, but I think Kwanro rolls over another good player and maybe makes the OP admit he might be decent.
On August 25 2009 11:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Oh man oh man. Why did this have to be later unlike all the other times with the Masters? 3 Awesome series tonight and I'll be asleep. Dam. Is there a shibal pic for Kwanro?
Tried finding that to no avail. If someone could hook me up with Kwanro's pic, that'd be appreciated. I found a gif of his, but resizing gifs is quite a nuisance.
Curious, according to the calendar, hite vs SKT1 in the STX Masters cup starts 30 minutes before this does.
Is Leta just not going to show up on the hite roster for STX Masters?
If so, then lol @ hite's already tiny chances of beating SKT1.
Back on topic, looking forward to Effort vs Flash. TvZ has always been Flash's worst matchup, and it'll be interesting to see if his recent success vs Zerg was because he's improved it, or just because he hasn't faced tough Zergs.
Was waiting for someone to post this thread :D. Might stay up for both games, but hopefully Flash v Effort . I don't know how I'll be feeling at 2AM lol.
I just realized that Hite will be playing without Leta in today's match with SKT1. Sucks for them I guess.
Today's matches should be quite entertaining, especially Flash vs Effort. Virtually anything can happen but I think Flash and Leta will win their matches.
On August 25 2009 13:54 FirstBorn wrote: I just realized that Hite will be playing without Leta in today's match with SKT1. Sucks for them I guess.
Today's matches should be quite entertaining, especially Flash vs Effort. Virtually anything can happen but I think Flash and Leta will win their matches.
Amusingly it would have been the same for Flash if KTF had made it this far in the STX Masters.
On August 25 2009 12:24 Hinanawi wrote: Curious, according to the calendar, hite vs SKT1 in the STX Masters cup starts 30 minutes before this does.
Is Leta just not going to show up on the hite roster for STX Masters?
If so, then lol @ hite's already tiny chances of beating SKT1.
Back on topic, looking forward to Effort vs Flash. TvZ has always been Flash's worst matchup, and it'll be interesting to see if his recent success vs Zerg was because he's improved it, or just because he hasn't faced tough Zergs.
Tied 1-1 with eachother in recent games (if you include older games Flash has a huge lead, but that was before Effort was good).
Both players have a lot to prove, and have a grudge the settle with the other player. Definitely the match of the night, can't wait!
Leta vs Kwanro...HOPE YOU LIKE 2-PORTS
Thats terrible man you have to count their overall history and even looking at the history it dosent mean much, i could say that in the last game they played flash bbsed effort and won showing that effort is a noobie and flash will take it 2-0 ezpz by your reasoning right? Flash has been playing awsome these past few months and while effort has been on a tear i think flash is just favorite for this, hoping for some epic games and for flash to come out ontop
On August 25 2009 12:24 Hinanawi wrote: Curious, according to the calendar, hite vs SKT1 in the STX Masters cup starts 30 minutes before this does.
Is Leta just not going to show up on the hite roster for STX Masters?
If so, then lol @ hite's already tiny chances of beating SKT1.
Back on topic, looking forward to Effort vs Flash. TvZ has always been Flash's worst matchup, and it'll be interesting to see if his recent success vs Zerg was because he's improved it, or just because he hasn't faced tough Zergs.
Tied 1-1 with eachother in recent games (if you include older games Flash has a huge lead, but that was before Effort was good).
Both players have a lot to prove, and have a grudge the settle with the other player. Definitely the match of the night, can't wait!
Leta vs Kwanro...HOPE YOU LIKE 2-PORTS
Thats terrible man you have to count their overall history and even looking at the history it dosent mean much, i could say that in the last game they played flash bbsed effort and won showing that effort is a noobie and flash will take it 2-0 ezpz by your reasoning right? Flash has been playing awsome these past few months and while effort has been on a tear i think flash is just favorite for this, hoping for some epic games and for flash to come out ontop
I'm a Flash fan and I hope Flash wins tonight too, but I think it's a good idea to look at how Effort has been doing lately (last few months) rather than how he was doing when he was bad last year. I think Flash is a better overall player than Effort, but it's undeniable that TvZ is Flash's weakest matchup and he's been under pressure to show his stuff in that matchup recently.
I honestly have no idea who's going to win tonight...if I were a betting man, I'd put 60% odds on Flash, but it's by no means a hugely lopsided series on paper.
On August 25 2009 12:24 Hinanawi wrote: Curious, according to the calendar, hite vs SKT1 in the STX Masters cup starts 30 minutes before this does.
Is Leta just not going to show up on the hite roster for STX Masters?
If so, then lol @ hite's already tiny chances of beating SKT1.
Back on topic, looking forward to Effort vs Flash. TvZ has always been Flash's worst matchup, and it'll be interesting to see if his recent success vs Zerg was because he's improved it, or just because he hasn't faced tough Zergs.
Tied 1-1 with eachother in recent games (if you include older games Flash has a huge lead, but that was before Effort was good).
Both players have a lot to prove, and have a grudge the settle with the other player. Definitely the match of the night, can't wait!
Leta vs Kwanro...HOPE YOU LIKE 2-PORTS
Thats terrible man you have to count their overall history and even looking at the history it dosent mean much, i could say that in the last game they played flash bbsed effort and won showing that effort is a noobie and flash will take it 2-0 ezpz by your reasoning right? Flash has been playing awsome these past few months and while effort has been on a tear i think flash is just favorite for this, hoping for some epic games and for flash to come out ontop
I agree that Flash is a SLIGHT favorite but I think it makes perfect sense to essentially discount games by Effort, or any other player that has shown enormous improvement in a short period of time, from more than 6 months ago.
At most the ace match they played from December is still relevant, though if you just watch that game, Effort is clearly better now in my opinion. The only representative game of their current skill is the ace match they played on Heartbreak, where Flash was ahead early yet still was taken down in the late game by Effort's beautiful beautiful late game ZvT.
Really hoping for Flash though - Flash Bisu is long overdue.
Hope Flash gets his 200th win today. If he goes 2-0 he'll also pass Jaedong on overall win rate, which would be cool as hell, too. Honestly I just want Flash to be #1 at everything except the PR right now. >:[
Curse your 3-0ing of yarnc, Jaedong, passing Flash by a 0.01%.
On August 25 2009 18:15 darktreb wrote: According to the Masters thread, Leta Kwanro will be first so Leta might have a chance to play in the Hite SKT1 match.
On August 25 2009 11:11 Avidkeystamper wrote: Oh man oh man. Why did this have to be later unlike all the other times with the Masters? 3 Awesome series tonight and I'll be asleep. Dam. Is there a shibal pic for Kwanro?
What do you mean by shibal pic?
Are you refering to one of Kwanro's games where after defending a zergling rush he shakes off his hands while mouthing 'ah, shibal'?
On August 25 2009 18:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: If leta can take this game he should definitely be able to win on ROTK. Dest is a much more difficult map than ROTK for T.
On August 25 2009 18:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: If leta can take this game he should definitely be able to win on ROTK. Dest is a much more difficult map than ROTK for T.
i thought dest was heavily biased towards T vs Z?
It is, and 2 port wraith is like really good here.
On August 25 2009 18:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: If leta can take this game he should definitely be able to win on ROTK. Dest is a much more difficult map than ROTK for T.
i thought dest was heavily biased towards T vs Z?
Its definitely better than outsider by far but I think most of the stats biased is due to bunk rushes/zergs not yet knowing how to react well to mech builds/variations. Most of which have been figured out fairly well by now.
Muta harass is extremely effective on dest and its nice having a high ground third. The difficulty in flanking is a big problem though but if zerg can keep the vessel numbers down, defiler/nydus works great.
4 hydras at main while 4 vults dropeed at main. Kwanro reacted well and kills 2 of the vults while losing 2 drones. Vults get a total kill of 3 drones and 1 hydra.
Leta pulls all his scv to block, Kwanro attacked with 15 hydras or so and loses about 10-12 of them. 1 tank reinforcement with scvs repel attack. Leta's siege up done.
On August 25 2009 18:49 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: If leta can take this game he should definitely be able to win on ROTK. Dest is a much more difficult map than ROTK for T.
i thought dest was heavily biased towards T vs Z?
It is, and 2 port wraith is like really good here.
2 port wraith is much much more difficult to pull off now because zergs have gotten much better at reading the build and reacting to it. Most good B level zergs I've played get very fast ovie speed, early muta and 1 spore by each min line. It's really hard to deal with. At pro level they could probably even skip the spores and just rely on multitasking to rape the wraiths with muta only. Constantly applying pressure with all their speedlords nearby the T base protected by an evergrowing blob of mutas. While doing that z just adds more and more gases. Jaedong demonstrated perfectly how to crush 2 port.
Kwanro is not on 4 gas with 5 hatch done. Mutas try to hinder Leta's push out of his nat, but is repelled by golis. Leta now has some golis, tanks and 4 turrets outside his nat. CC floating to 2.
Kwanro is going for mass muta.. I don't think that will work. As soon as Leta has 3 gas, he'll spam turrets , vessel and expand to the right, he won't make a single move.
Leta at 1600/500, Kwanro keeps muta-harassing picking off tanks and whatnot, while defusing mines. Seems like Kwanro is making a considerable amount of mutas but Leta is spamming turrets to 2 and has golis just killing mutas with long range.
2 cg of muta is going around at main killing tanks and golis. Leta has about 18~ golis shooting mutas. A vessel is out but don't think it has irridiate yet.Kwanro fights golis at ramp but retreats.
Kwanro's mutas has 2 carapace while Leta has 2/1 ups.
Kwanro is taking 3 and lost about half his mutas. Now only 6 mutas left. Kwanro has lots of hydras in front of his nat. Seems like Kwanro didn't make hatch at 3. He is not on 6 bases but his hydras are at 1/1 and is preparing to attack front and 2. ATTACKS.
Kwanro attacks the right spo in front killing aobut half of Leta's tanks and his force at 2 took down lots of turrets and 2 tanks. Defence at 2 is nonexistant because Leta only has 3 tanks. Lots of golis from from main side to repel 2.
Kwanro still attacks front with reinforced hydras and reduces tanks count from 6-7 to 1. Lots of golis and 2 is running and Leta took his minonly. Mutas moving around at Leta's main now.
LOL! He can... Kwanro made a huge mistake here if you ask me. He reduced the tankcount to 0, and then started building a couple mutas again... he had to build tons of hydras then T_T.. I think Leta got it now.
Kwanro is taking advantage of his mobility by always applying pressure wherever Leta's goliaths aren't. The tanks were spread fairly evenly, but attacking left, right, left, right, he's broke through the super turtle.
Attacking in a line and a bad angle, Kwanro wastes his 15~ hydras for some golis and scvs. Huge muta-hydra force near 9. Leta scans RIGHT there lol and Kwanro pulls back slightly.
Letas has 5 golis and 7 tanks with several turrets at his front.
Kwanro 2/2 hyras, and has 2500/1300. Leta 800/300.
Kwanro got his hydras at 1 and loaded into ov but they die as they try to go to Leta's main. 30~ mutas from Kwanro with still a good amount of hydra'/lings. Hive up and mound going up.
On August 25 2009 19:14 radadaundandan wrote: Sooner or later kwanro will get out of resource if leta holds him 10 more minutes things will turn imho
7 bases to 3? -_-;;;;; Leta had lost this game about 30 minutes ago when he let Kwanro take 5 bases uncontested, after that it was just about time. Kwanro was at 3k mins the whole game, imagine if he'd macroed well.
Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
On August 25 2009 19:15 WindCalibur wrote: Wow, mutas + hydras in overlord droping in middle of mech army = really effective.
At Blizzcon, Effort and Nada played an absolute EPIC (literally an hour long game) on Destination in the offline section that sadly was not televised. In that game, Effort did much of the same - using Overlords to drop units (often Ultras haha) into the turtling Terran army.
On August 25 2009 19:14 radadaundandan wrote: Sooner or later kwanro will get out of resource if leta holds him 10 more minutes things will turn imho
7 bases to 3? -_-;;;;; Leta had lost this game about 30 minutes ago when he let Kwanro take 5 bases uncontested, after that it was just about time. Kwanro was at 3k mins the whole game, imagine if he'd macroed well.
He macroed fairly well for having that many bases considering he kept his gas low. Which is the primary limited factor when going muta/hydra.
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Thats true but I still cant see him losing to any foreigner.
On August 25 2009 19:15 WindCalibur wrote: Wow, mutas + hydras in overlord droping in middle of mech army = really effective.
At Blizzcon, Effort and Nada played an absolute EPIC (literally an hour long game) on Destination in the offline section that sadly was not televised. In that game, Effort did much of the same - using Overlords to drop units (often Ultras haha) into the turtling Terran army.
Well time to use this in my games. This seems to work much better than suiciding hydras against tanks on bridges. Also after watching, since Kwanro didnt really clump mutas, shouldnt valks be more effective?
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Haha, or maybe the opposite happens - he executes his aggressive style with such refinement that the foreigners never have that he just blows everyone out.
Then again maybe he just all-ins. I remember watching Savior 1 Hatch Lurker Ret in their first game at Blizzcon, ending it quickly and painlessly (for Savior).
On August 25 2009 19:14 radadaundandan wrote: Sooner or later kwanro will get out of resource if leta holds him 10 more minutes things will turn imho
7 bases to 3? -_-;;;;; Leta had lost this game about 30 minutes ago when he let Kwanro take 5 bases uncontested, after that it was just about time. Kwanro was at 3k mins the whole game, imagine if he'd macroed well.
He macroed fairly well for having that many bases considering he kept his gas low. Which is the primary limited factor when going muta/hydra.
Well, 100 more lings and 4 more hatcheries couldn't have hurt.
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Haha, or maybe the opposite happens - he executes his aggressive style with such refinement that the foreigners never have that he just blows everyone out.
Then again maybe he just all-ins. I remember watching Savior 1 Hatch Lurker Ret in their first game at Blizzcon, ending it quickly and painlessly (for Savior).
Savior owned ret with 1 hatch lurker? Seriously?-_-
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Haha, or maybe the opposite happens - he executes his aggressive style with such refinement that the foreigners never have that he just blows everyone out.
Then again maybe he just all-ins. I remember watching Savior 1 Hatch Lurker Ret in their first game at Blizzcon, ending it quickly and painlessly (for Savior).
Savior owned ret with 1 hatch lurker? Seriously?-_-
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Haha, or maybe the opposite happens - he executes his aggressive style with such refinement that the foreigners never have that he just blows everyone out.
Then again maybe he just all-ins. I remember watching Savior 1 Hatch Lurker Ret in their first game at Blizzcon, ending it quickly and painlessly (for Savior).
Savior owned ret with 1 hatch lurker? Seriously?-_-
Yeah game 1 he went for some 1 Hatch Lurker cheese drop but Ret didn't have ANY detection at all so he just decided screw it and walked straight in.
I don't really remember what happened in game 2 (because the Effort Nada epic was going on) but I think Savior rolled Ret fairly quickly with some low econ play.
On August 25 2009 19:17 G.s)NarutO wrote: Kwanro is probably the one Korean (if he manages to get to WCG) who's most likely to be beaten due to his very agressiv often all-in style. (because foreigners are used to that, hi zergs from hungary, peru...) ^^
Haha, or maybe the opposite happens - he executes his aggressive style with such refinement that the foreigners never have that he just blows everyone out.
Then again maybe he just all-ins. I remember watching Savior 1 Hatch Lurker Ret in their first game at Blizzcon, ending it quickly and painlessly (for Savior).
Savior owned ret with 1 hatch lurker? Seriously?-_-
I think that was the game savior lost?
Could be wrong though.
Score says: sAviOr 2-0 ret .. ? So I think he won even that.
On August 25 2009 19:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Wait so who did ret beat and what happened in that game? I know he took a game. I figured it would have to be the 1 hatch lurk game lol.
On August 25 2009 19:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Wait so who did ret beat and what happened in that game? I know he took a game. I figured it would have to be the 1 hatch lurk game lol.
Ret beat Nada once in what I heard was an epic comeback by Ret, but almost no one saw it because there were games being broadcast on stage at the time =(
Ret also beat Idra 2-1 in a decent series that was overshadowed by the Effort Nada game (yes this game was THAT long that it basically overshadowed like 5 other games)
On August 25 2009 19:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Wait so who did ret beat and what happened in that game? I know he took a game. I figured it would have to be the 1 hatch lurk game lol.
Ret beat Nada once in what I heard was an epic comeback by Ret, but almost no one saw it because there were games being broadcast on stage at the time =(
Ret also beat Idra 2-1 in a decent series that was overshadowed by the Effort Nada game (yes this game was THAT long that it basically overshadowed like 5 other games)
On August 25 2009 19:31 G.s)NarutO wrote: Flash doesn't need a wall against 2 hatch while doing a mech build yO! (seriously go 12 speedlings and he's dead-_-)
Ya pretty risky but he can always bunker near his fact if he needs to and get quick vult speed.
Also over pool/gas isnt that common on dest because its such a good straight up map. Unless you're a genius like Jaedong(and your oppoent does a retarded wall in)
On August 25 2009 19:31 G.s)NarutO wrote: Flash doesn't need a wall against 2 hatch while doing a mech build yO! (seriously go 12 speedlings and he's dead-_-)
Ya pretty risky but he can always bunker near his fact if he needs to and get quick vult speed.
Also over pool/gas isnt that common on dest because its such a good straight up map. Unless you're a genius like Jaedong(and your oppoent does a retarded wall in)
On August 25 2009 19:31 G.s)NarutO wrote: Flash doesn't need a wall against 2 hatch while doing a mech build yO! (seriously go 12 speedlings and he's dead-_-)
Ya pretty risky but he can always bunker near his fact if he needs to and get quick vult speed.
Also over pool/gas isnt that common on dest because its such a good straight up map. Unless you're a genius like Jaedong(and your oppoent does a retarded wall in)
Map is Outsider my friend
Lol I knew that. Wrote dest for no reason.
I was even thinking of the jaedong vs fantasy game on outsider.
Effort played pretty poorly for how he was a few months ago. What happened to the #1 ZvT :/
Flash's strategy was dead on though. He managed to lose a billion marines and his first push because he can't multitask but his constant pressure gave him the ability to expand safely, stall ultras, and wear Effort down at low risk.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
The thing that really won him the games against july is insanely good medic walls against massive amounts of ultras.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Flash's strength in TvZ is he's like invincible against lurkers. Too bad, he's kind of lousy against mutas.
That's why I thought his build from several months ago was perfect for him. SK Terran build except you tech really really late and focus on turrets/marines. That way, you defend against your weakness (mutas), and take advantage of your strength (micro against lurkers).
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Because he doesnt reach the late game and they kill him early/mid game ? I said late game, and not early/mid game builds, thats where the SKT terrans take the credit.
On August 25 2009 19:49 konadora wrote: Effort 2 digit resources...
GG
Didn't play like himself o_O Hardly any expansions.
Flash did a great job controlling the middle the whole game. He was content to let Effort take the 4 free gas Outsider gives Zerg, but made sure not to let him take any more. He also was extra careful to ensure that Effort not get the minerals from the min-only above the 9 o'clock base which can make a huge difference (as we saw in the July game) when the gas flows that easily.
Once Flash secured his 4 gas it was just a matter of trading Vessels for Defilers, and he actually did a better than usual job of keeping his Vessels alive too.
Effort played really well - Flash was one step ahead in a lot of places, such as when he killed lings trying to go around for flanks a few times, making a huge difference. Effort would have won against almost every other Terran.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
On August 25 2009 19:51 Ver wrote: Effort played pretty poorly for how he was a few months ago. What happened to the #1 ZvT :/
Flash's strategy was dead on though. He managed to lose a billion marines and his first push because he can't multitask but his constant pressure gave him the ability to expand safely, stall ultras, and wear Effort down at low risk.
Haha... were you watching supply counts? It was pretty clear Flash would take it after the results of the first push. Effort lost almost a dozen lurkers vs a dirt cheap M&M army. Flash came out of that with a supply advantage he never let go of.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
If flash gets to lategame he only losses to Jaedong. Rapes other zergs. But he is relatively weak earlygame. Dunno why, maybe because of greed.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
This is one of those really stupid things that people just regurgitate because they're in denial. It's like everytime Flash beats a zerg, they're either bad or slumping. Flash could 3-0 Jaedong tomorrow and it wouldn't be because Flash played well -- it never is. Sigh, that's what he gets for being #1 elo, career winning percentage, highest win rate in all 3 matches for Terran (leta's is lower right now after Kwanro), etc.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
So, flash completely lost his initial push. He failed to even hurt a single hatchery before effort got 4 gas and swarm. He lost a bunch of early vessels.
And he wins? What happened to Ret's 4 gas zerg = autowin?
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Lol youre full of shit.
No, I'm full of sarcasm ^_^
The fact people didn't get that this is sarcasm says a lot about Flash fans, and Flash anti-fans. lol.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Lol youre full of shit.
No, I'm full of sarcasm ^_^
The fact people didn't get that this is sarcasm says a lot about Flash fans, and Flash anti-fans. lol.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Lol youre full of shit.
No, I'm full of sarcasm ^_^
The fact people didn't get that this is sarcasm says a lot about Flash fans, and Flash anti-fans. lol.
Well if it was sarcasm then it went right over my head. That's been said so much lately and it's realy tiresome. =(
On August 25 2009 19:58 igotmyown wrote: So, flash completely lost his initial push. He failed to even hurt a single hatchery before effort got 4 gas and swarm. He lost a bunch of early vessels.
And he wins? What happened to Ret's 4 gas zerg = autowin?
He took out a huge number of units, and he leveraged that unit advantage to keep Effort from getting too big. That push was pretty successful actually.
On August 25 2009 19:58 igotmyown wrote: So, flash completely lost his initial push. He failed to even hurt a single hatchery before effort got 4 gas and swarm. He lost a bunch of early vessels.
And he wins? What happened to Ret's 4 gas zerg = autowin?
He took out a huge number of units, and he leveraged that unit advantage to keep Effort from getting too big. That push was pretty successful actually.
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Lol youre full of shit.
No, I'm full of sarcasm ^_^
The fact people didn't get that this is sarcasm says a lot about Flash fans, and Flash anti-fans. lol.
sarcasm doesnt work on internet, true story
it does, but many people are too stupid to notice it
On August 25 2009 19:51 samachking wrote: This is why Flash>Every single T late game TvZ, more people should seen the games vs July, his mechanics are out of this world.
But July played poorly. It's well known that Flash can't win against top level zergs.
Lol youre full of shit.
No, I'm full of sarcasm ^_^
The fact people didn't get that this is sarcasm says a lot about Flash fans, and Flash anti-fans. lol.
sarcasm doesnt work on internet, true story
it does, but many people are too stupid to notice it
On August 25 2009 20:15 konadora wrote: Effort is completely clueless how to counter Flash's mech style
This game is actually looking a lot like the epic Effort Nada game on Desti at Blizzcon (the one I keep bringing up because it doesn't deserve to be forgotten).
And yeah, in that game, Effort really had a tough time taking Nada down (even though he was ahead by a lot more than he is in this game), which doesn't bode well for him here.
That first attack was so stupid and unnecessary. He was taking both side expansions, he would have been 3 bases ahead and he was like 20 supply in the lead. There was no need to attack that fortified position with like 5000 mines. He needed like 2 control groups of lings to clear them if he had a hope of attacking. Nice way to blow a lead.
I am now a believer of flash. I used to argue that fantasy is the best terran right now. I was dead wrong about that. Fantasy is all about creativity while Flash is all about mechanics. He is just too damn good! Hoping for an epic PvT between him and Bisu! gogogo!
On August 25 2009 20:18 Shikyo wrote: That first attack was so stupid and unnecessary. He was taking both side expansions, he would have been 3 bases ahead and he was like 20 supply in the lead. There was no need to attack that fortified position with like 5000 mines. He needed like 2 control groups of lings to clear them if he had a hope of attacking. Nice way to blow a lead.
Attack was bad but those expansions are easy to kill by terran, and there is no way that 24 lings would take out those mines.
How the hell can you claim Flash is a 'turtle' when he controls more than half the map?
OF COURSE he's going to sit tight and let Effort mine himself out or fail attack. What do you want him to do, suicide his army into Effort's base and throw the game out of pity?
Flash's defense is just so amazing that no matter how much he attacks, his defense is just that much more impressive.
I don't think effort was 'much' ahead at any point of the game. Flash just played an nice mass vessel (so effort had no choice but skip mutas) + heavy tank army. In the end it totally played out like flash had it planned from the beginning.
haha, finally these zergs realise what it means to fight against this slow spreading disease called mech terran. I'ts much more painful to watch 2 groups of zealots getting melted even before they arrive at the front line
I feel sorry for effort, losing to teenage mutant ninjaturtle donatello even though he didn't attack once ... :/
Instead of gloating like I would normally do, I'm going to take the high road. Is there any thing I can do to cheer up the Flash anti fans? You all seem to have really hurt feelings.
Call me crazy, but I like the WCG set lists a whole lot more than OSL or MSL. Flash vs Effort was epic. Now we have Stork vs. Fantasy, Luxury vs. Yellow (who doesn't want to see siblings duke it out), and Flash vs. Bisu.
On August 25 2009 20:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: A player is the best when their offense is impeccable, a player is a terrible terrible turtle when their defense is impeccable.
A player is the best when they do what it takes to win more often than anyone else. Flash played fantastic in both games.
If you think what he did in game 2 is easy than watch leta's game 2. He tried to do the same thing but didnt have the skills.
I'm a Flash fan, that was poking fun at people who say turtles are bad players. People really don't seem to get how hard it is to hold off a zerg with Swarm as well as Flash does.
On August 25 2009 20:28 Assymptotic wrote: Call me crazy, but I like the WCG set lists a whole lot more than OSL or MSL. Flash vs Effort was epic. Now we have Stork vs. Fantasy, Luxury vs. Yellow (who doesn't want to see siblings duke it out), and Flash vs. Bisu.
On August 25 2009 20:28 Assymptotic wrote: Call me crazy, but I like the WCG set lists a whole lot more than OSL or MSL. Flash vs Effort was epic. Now we have Stork vs. Fantasy, Luxury vs. Yellow (who doesn't want to see siblings duke it out), and Flash vs. Bisu.
On August 25 2009 20:28 Keniji wrote: I don't think effort was 'much' ahead at any point of the game. Flash just played an nice mass vessel (so effort had no choice but skip mutas) + heavy tank army. In the end it totally played out like flash had it planned from the beginning.
So how come when zerg make their 3 control groups of mutas and just overwhelm (2 base) terran mech, terran doesn't counter by making 6 science vessels? Come on, all the gas was going to vessels and tanks. You lose a lot of mutas in the process, but it's better than suiciding hydras into tank lines.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
Both go 1-2 in OSL Kwanro MSL finalist, Effort ro8 Effort performs well in gom to lose to Iris 0-3 in semis,Kwanro loses to Zero 1-2 in a bo3, which he then proceeds to destroy in every single tourney. Effort plays amazingly in PL, Kwanro proceeds to fail vs noname Khan Terran 0-2
I find this kind of hillarious, I guess the first impression matters the most to people, especially about players.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
The only favorites who've won a startleague in the last 2 seasons are Jaedong(since this MSL is Calm or Kwanro). Flash is doing as well as everyone else by that standard, dude.
I am going to respond to Flash's critics right now. Wait hold on, let me just siege up these tanks, lay same mines... oh a couple missile turrets and supply depots, and hell let's go for 3-3 upgrades. Ok so what were you guys saying?
edit: haha Flash fans seem to be turtling against picking up on sarcasm.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
On August 25 2009 20:28 Assymptotic wrote: Call me crazy, but I like the WCG set lists a whole lot more than OSL or MSL. Flash vs Effort was epic. Now we have Stork vs. Fantasy, Luxury vs. Yellow (who doesn't want to see siblings duke it out), and Flash vs. Bisu.
Amen.
WAIT WHAT? fantasy vs stork??? lux vs yellow??? HOLY SHIT =O =O =O
On August 25 2009 20:40 samachking wrote: I find this tidbit about Kwanro-Effort hillarious Kwanro-Fail bad Zerg Effort-GREATEST ZERG SINCE SAVIOR MA JAE YOON REINCARINATE, ZERG GOD
Both go 1-2 in OSL Kwanro MSL finalist, Effort ro8 Effort performs well in gom to lose to Iris 0-3 in semis,Kwanro loses to Zero 1-2 in a bo3, which he then proceeds to destroy in every single tourney. Effort plays amazingly in PL, Kwanro proceeds to fail vs noname Khan Terran 0-2
I find this kind of hillarious, I guess the first impression matters the most to people, especially about players.
Age and style has a lot to do with it too. Kwanro has been around since 2007, but kind of dropped off the map in 2008. However, before dropping off the map he left a huge impression as pretty much the most aggressive modern Zerg out there. Like you said, this is the same guy who went 0-2 against Miracle in PL while Effort was crushing Samsung singlehandedly.
Effort on the other hand basically appeared on the scene this year, plays the way 2006 Savior would if he had 2009 mechanics, and has been extremely impressive before some bumps in the road lately.
If, however, Kwanro proceeds to beat Calm, the same guy who beat Effort 3-0 earlier ... it'll be really weird, haha.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
Lol so u were for real? Can u name me the MEDIOCRE playeers that raped flash? I just remember: Jaedong (yeah Mediocre) YarnC (yeah Mediocre to) Bisu (fuck such a mediocre player) Kwanro (worst zerg ever)
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
Lol so u were for real? Can u name me the MEDIOCRE playeers that raped flash? I just remember: Jaedong (yeah Mediocre) YarnC (yeah Mediocre to) Bisu (fuck such a mediocre player) Kwanro (worst zerg ever)
YarnC IS mediocre. (besides vs T ) Kwanro is too:-p
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
If you don't watch then how do you know anything about his losses?
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
Lol so u were for real? Can u name me the MEDIOCRE playeers that raped flash? I just remember: Jaedong (yeah Mediocre) YarnC (yeah Mediocre to) Bisu (fuck such a mediocre player) Kwanro (worst zerg ever)
YarnC IS mediocre. (besides vs T ) Kwanro is too:-p
Ok so now we call mediocre player to SL finalist?.... so what is for the other players like Jangbi, stork, effort, etc... noobs?
In the mind of the Flash anti-fan, what Flash does could easily be duplicated by any C-rank iccup Terran if they would just SWALLOW THEIR PRIDE AND TURTLE, IT'S SO SIMPLE DON'T YOU SEE? NO SKILL INVOLVED, JUST SIEGE UP AND WIN.
It's more hilarious than anything. You can almost hear them grinding their teeth in rage as people throw units against Flash's impenetrable defense and lose.
On August 25 2009 20:30 monstar123 wrote: Anyway Kwanro>>>>>Flash !!!!
You already said this, no one cares.
Man everybody knows that Flash is like a underdog in OSL and in MSL , After Bacchus OSL 2008 he couldn't get any trophy , every mediocre player raped him in every league. Just watch next season SLs.
Someone's been reading too much TLPD and not watching the games
I dont like to watch his turtle style.That's why there is no results in SLs.Who cares about GOM ?
On August 25 2009 20:52 Hinanawi wrote: In the mind of the Flash anti-fan, what Flash does could easily be duplicated by any C-rank iccup Terran if they would just SWALLOW THEIR PRIDE AND TURTLE, IT'S SO SIMPLE DON'T YOU SEE? NO SKILL INVOLVED, JUST SIEGE UP AND WIN.
It's more hilarious than anything. You can almost hear them grinding their teeth in rage as people throw units against Flash's impenetrable defense and lose.
Yea, I am trying to be really sensitive to their feelings tonight. They seem really hurt, I mean we used to have a back and forth and it was fun... you know part of being a fan. After tonight though, their heart just isn't in it and I'm a little worried. I mean, this kind of thing can be a cry for help... I read that some where. I found a video that might help called living with depression. I encourage all Flash anti-fans to go watch this.
Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
But he isnt on the power rank so for me he is a mediocre player that doesnt win SL
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
Take out the GOM.
Take out GOM for Bisu and Jaedong (both of which bolster their stats nicely, Bisu would be below Flash on #1 elo of all time if you removed Gom, buddy. It's like your forget that GOM is where Bisu and Jaedong both snagged wins over Flash) and you get similar. High horse, you should get off of it.
On August 25 2009 20:52 Hinanawi wrote: In the mind of the Flash anti-fan, what Flash does could easily be duplicated by any C-rank iccup Terran if they would just SWALLOW THEIR PRIDE AND TURTLE, IT'S SO SIMPLE DON'T YOU SEE? NO SKILL INVOLVED, JUST SIEGE UP AND WIN.
It's more hilarious than anything. You can almost hear them grinding their teeth in rage as people throw units against Flash's impenetrable defense and lose.
Try asking 'any C-rank iccup Terran' to have such kind of defense and macro such as Flash
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
It seems like you don't follow proSC very closely so let me fill you in. Flash won the GSL this season, which is a major black mark on his record for some reason. It's not surprising though seeing as he's on a major slump... in the past 2 months he's won only ~66% of his games! It's also common knowledge that his TvZ is absolutely terrible. In fact his vZ ELO is a measly 2nd, after some no named zerg player (something-dong, I don't really remember).
I hope this clears it up for you, if you have any other questions just refer to the power rank.
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
Take out the GOM.
Take out GOM for Bisu and Jaedong (both of which bolster their stats nicely, Bisu would be below Flash on #1 elo of all time if you removed Gom, buddy. It's like your forget that GOM is where Bisu and Jaedong both snagged wins over Flash) and you get similar. High horse, you should get off of it.
this was already discussed, bisu will lose no more than 11 points and still be all time #1
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
Take out the GOM.
Take out GOM for Bisu and Jaedong (both of which bolster their stats nicely, Bisu would be below Flash on #1 elo of all time if you removed Gom, buddy. It's like your forget that GOM is where Bisu and Jaedong both snagged wins over Flash) and you get similar. High horse, you should get off of it.
this was already discussed, bisu will lose no more than 11 points and still be all time #1
What? I remember that, at the time, Gom was removed and Flash became #1 again. The shitstorm happened, gom got reinstated, and Bisu retook #1.
Oh well, Flash just has to 6-0 his next 3 wcg matches against Bisu and Jaedong and such and work his way to 2400 elo. 8)
Stats from Ygosu.com. Total games vs progamers: Jaedong — 497 games 340 wins 157 losses (68.4%) Flash — 351 games 237 wins 114 losses (67.5%) Official games: Jaedong — 328 games 222 wins 106 (67.7%) Flash — 247 games 162 wins 85 losses (65.6%)
On August 25 2009 21:33 Tyxiquale wrote: flash would make a statement and a half in this WCG, should the results in the other brackets fall towards the favourites, flash will need to:
On August 25 2009 21:32 nonduc wrote: Stats from Ygosu.com. Total games vs progamers: Jaedong — 497 games 340 wins 157 losses (68.4%) Flash — 351 games 237 wins 114 losses (67.5%) Official games: Jaedong — 328 games 222 wins 106 (67.7%) Flash — 247 games 162 wins 85 losses (65.6%)
What are the details on this? The first one could include junk such as 'special event' tournaments like Masters and All stars and such, and the latter one seems there to completely exclude GOM which, regardless of esports politics, if a legit tournament.
On the other hand, I'll stick with TLPD since...I'm on team liquid.
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
Take out the GOM.
Take out GOM for Bisu and Jaedong (both of which bolster their stats nicely, Bisu would be below Flash on #1 elo of all time if you removed Gom, buddy. It's like your forget that GOM is where Bisu and Jaedong both snagged wins over Flash) and you get similar. High horse, you should get off of it.
this was already discussed, bisu will lose no more than 11 points and still be all time #1
What? I remember that, at the time, Gom was removed and Flash became #1 again. The shitstorm happened, gom got reinstated, and Bisu retook #1.
Oh well, Flash just has to 6-0 his next 3 wcg matches against Bisu and Jaedong and such and work his way to 2400 elo. 8)
nothing like that happened, when gom was removed Bisu's ELO dropped to 2345, which was still more than flash. The "shitstorm" was weather or not special events such as Shinhan Masters, STX Masters and most important the Bisu vs Jaedong special match should be added. Besides GOM was not the major factor for KTY's record - WL was
On August 25 2009 21:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash now, officially, has the highest winning rate of any Terran in any match up, and simultaneously has passed Jaedong up for highest overall win rate, just shy of 68%. All this on top of a +2300 elo and a significant 30 point elo lead over the next highest (Jaedong ofc). Kid's a monster.
Take out the GOM.
Take out GOM for Bisu and Jaedong (both of which bolster their stats nicely, Bisu would be below Flash on #1 elo of all time if you removed Gom, buddy. It's like your forget that GOM is where Bisu and Jaedong both snagged wins over Flash) and you get similar. High horse, you should get off of it.
this was already discussed, bisu will lose no more than 11 points and still be all time #1
What? I remember that, at the time, Gom was removed and Flash became #1 again. The shitstorm happened, gom got reinstated, and Bisu retook #1.
Oh well, Flash just has to 6-0 his next 3 wcg matches against Bisu and Jaedong and such and work his way to 2400 elo. 8)
nothing like that happened, when gom was removed Bisu's ELO dropped to 2345, which was still more than flash. The "shitstorm" was weather or not special events such as Shinhan Masters, STX Masters and most important the Bisu vs Jaedong special match should be added. Besides GOM was not the major factor for KTY's record - WL was
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to seeing Flash vs Bisu. I'd say they have about 50-50 odds against eachother right now. Remember their set in Season 2 of GOM? Best fucking PvT series I'd seen in ages. I love Flash and Bisu about equally, so I just want to see some epic games regardless of who wins.
Also I hope that whoever wins between Flash and Bisu goes on to win the entire WCG.
On August 25 2009 21:50 nonduc wrote: TwoToneTerran, you’re on TeamLiquid but overall statistics for JD is better than for Flash.
You're quoting a different site with a different way of measuring things. That's only pertinent to that site, whereas here, TLPD is the pertinent one. :> It's common sense.
It's fairly obvious that Jaedong > Flash over the last year or so, regardless of whether one has 0.5% more or or 2% less win rate than the other.
It's harder to compare Flash and Bisu at the moment. That makes the upcoming match extra interesting. (With some luck WCG will bring us Flash vs Jaedong too.)
Holy shit! Flash literally fucking tore Effort a new hole.. This is why I like Flash. Just like JD, when he turns on God Mode he's a one fucking wrecking machine. JD and Flash needs to fuse together like Dragonball Z style and their 67 - 68% win rate will turn into 100% win rate.
The problem with the final match in WCG, is the fact that its totally irrelevant, both players are already qualified for the WCG, and its a bo3 only, so there is less incentive to practice and its mainly fanservice. Unless there is a large prize pool that I am unaware of, the quality of the games will be lower than he rest of the tourney by either finalist's standards. I remember Stork vs JD last year, where game 2 was a proxy 2 gate in the middle vs a 5pool, it was hillarious, even stork burst out laughing when he saw the lings.
On August 25 2009 21:50 nonduc wrote: TwoToneTerran, you’re on TeamLiquid but overall statistics for JD is better than for Flash.
You're quoting a different site with a different way of measuring things. That's only pertinent to that site, whereas here, TLPD is the pertinent one. :> It's common sense.
Sorry, as for me common sens for statistics = to count all games of progamer vs progamer first of all. TLPD is just incomplete…
On August 25 2009 21:50 nonduc wrote: TwoToneTerran, you’re on TeamLiquid but overall statistics for JD is better than for Flash.
You're quoting a different site with a different way of measuring things. That's only pertinent to that site, whereas here, TLPD is the pertinent one. :> It's common sense.
Sorry, as for me common sens for statistics = to count all games of progamer vs progamer first of all. TLPD is just incomplete…
That includes nonsensical stuff like gimmick and event tournaments, and quite possibly nearly irrelevant stuff like offline prelims -- might as well start ranking players up for beating other pros over Iccup. Should we really buff Savior for doing well in those special events, etc? TLPD is as complete as it should be. It has a definitive criteria and, by that criteria, Flash has scooted past Jaedong.
On August 25 2009 21:50 nonduc wrote: TwoToneTerran, you’re on TeamLiquid but overall statistics for JD is better than for Flash.
You're quoting a different site with a different way of measuring things. That's only pertinent to that site, whereas here, TLPD is the pertinent one. :> It's common sense.
Sorry, as for me common sens for statistics = to count all games of progamer vs progamer first of all. TLPD is just incomplete…
That includes nonsensical stuff like gimmick and event tournaments, and quite possibly nearly irrelevant stuff like offline prelims -- might as well start ranking players up for beating other pros over Iccup. Should we really buff Savior for doing well in those special events, etc? TLPD is as complete as it should be. It has a definitive criteria and, by that criteria, Flash has scooted past Jaedong.
I'm sorry you seem to be missing the point here. To reiterate nonduc's argument: "Wahhhhhhhhh"
On August 25 2009 22:17 nonduc wrote: No, no, this is NOT ranking. This’s staistics for win/loss ratio.
Yes, and for win/loss ratio, Flash beats Jaedong by TLPD criteria. How are you arguing this? You completely missed the point of my post, where those statistics are arbitrarily inflated by gimmick/pointless tournaments with no legitimate bearing on whether a progamer wins or loses. OSL/MSL/GOM/PL/WCG all have something to contribute, whereas ANY progamer vs progamer match up is suspect.
TwoToneTerran, I’m sorry for my bad English. I’ll try to explain.
TLPD ins’t show for you overall statistics for total games — it’s just show selected statistics. And this selection is just non-evident — because one special event is counted (Special Match JD 3 vs 2 Bisu) but another isn’t (SPL All Stars 2008 incl. JD 0 vs 1 Flash). That’s why I prefer to use overall statistics — this’s pretty common for koreans and you can see this kind of statistics in GOM players info before 1st game for example. In this case statistics from Yogosu.Com isn’t 100% correct but it’s better than TLPD by now (compare H2H JD vs Flash please).
Arguing over whether JD or Flash has the highest career winning % is kind of silly at any rate. I'm a Flash fan, but even I can admit that Jaedong has won more games that matter in the past few months.
In my view Jaedong is pretty much the undisputed #1 in Starcraft right now, and #2 is what us hopeless (Bisu/Flash/Fantasy) fanboys are fighting over.
What IS undeniable is that Flash has been a FUCKING BEAST this month, and with his TvZ apparently fixed, he's going to be scary as hell in the next starleagues.
On August 25 2009 22:33 nonduc wrote: TwoToneTerran, I’m sorry for my bad English. I’ll try to explain.
TLPD ins’t show for you overall statistics for total games — it’s just show selected statistics. And this selection is just non-evident — because one special event is counted (Special Match JD 3 vs 2 Bisu) but another isn’t (SPL All Stars 2008 incl. JD 0 vs 1 Flash). That’s why I prefer to use overall statistics — this’s pretty common for koreans and you can see this kind of statistics in GOM players info before 1st game for example. In this case statistics from Yogosu.Com isn’t 100% correct but it’s better than TLPD by now (compare H2H JD vs Flash please).
My point was is that the vast majority of TL uses TLPD, and will continue to, and it is the standard for this site. By that standard, Flash is ahead. If I ever go to Yogosu and talk about this I'll be happy to say Jaedong has a better career rate than Flash, but that isn't the case here. Why even have a TLPD if you're just going to dismiss it with other sites that aren't necessarily better, but just use a different criteria? (I mean seriously All Stars is not worth mentioning for a real career record. The gom special match is an entirely different story, anyhow)
Guys, let's stop arguing please.. this is getting nowhere. TT_TT In the end, it's fair to say that both has monsterous career win rate and they're pretty much similar. Sometimes Jaedong is higher, sometimes Flash is higher. Both are my favorite players anyway. I'm almost certain that 5 - 6 months from now (of course I could be wrong but given how consistent they are), both will probably have similar win-loss % by then still. So why don't we all just hold each other's hand, jump in circles, and get along. Lol! j/k :p
IMHO your point is wrong: this’s no question about preferences of majority of TL users but it’s 1) about completness of overall statistics and 2) for evidence of criteria for selected statistics. Total statistics in TPLD isn’t comlete and it’s not shown. And selection isn’t evident — there’re many special events and tournaments with best players in it but these events not counted but GOM2 Special Match 2009 is counted…
I just want to apologize for all the shit talking. I got caught up in the moment. I'll probably do it next time though, but this is just to let everyone know I realize it's a stupid thing to do.
I missed Flash v Effort because the OP has them in the wrong order... I saw that Kwanro and Leta were playing and was like "the fuuuuuuuu'? How did I miss Flash already?!"
On August 26 2009 02:52 pripple wrote: need some vods! how the hell does Leta lose 0-2 to Kwanro... is the guy actually good, don't want to believe it :<
Flash on a roll, Bisu is gonna be the next victim!
I love Leta, but he just seems to fall apart after the mid game. If he worked that out he could be a legend.
Thanks for posting the link. Just in case someone else is having trouble finding the games, here is Flash vs Effort G1... the other games have names w/ the same format and date.
On August 26 2009 07:24 dl2agon wrote: ROFFLES' PREDICTIONS GOT KWANROLLED
I blame it on Leta wanting to get back to his team for STX Masters. Seriously, why else would he attempt to scv/rine rush game 1 on Outsider? I blame him for wanting to end it quickly. Too bad that falls right into the only thing Kwanro knows how to do, which is play aggressively =/
Wow, Flash just rolled over Effort in the 2nd game. Effort was completely clueless how to deal with tank-heavy mech. Poor guy, it must have really hurt. But thanks to that we will have Flash vs Bisu match! Too bad it is only bo3...
Wow, Flash just rolled over Effort in the 2nd game. Effort was completely clueless how to deal with tank-heavy mech. Poor guy, it must have really hurt. But thanks to that we will have Flash vs Bisu match! Too bad it is only bo3...
When Effort made his disastrous attack towards Flash's nat (aka the Maginot Line) Flash was upgraded to 2-2 metal, while Effort was just at 1-0 Ranged.
It's kind of funny, now a days in TvZ it seems like T is in a constant rush to do damage before Z gets too big... here it was the exact opposite.
I think it's pretty obvious JD is more clutch and wins when it counts more often. That being said, Flash can be incredible. Just needs to continue to work on his game/ not get too cocky and he can easily be the best in the game.
On August 26 2009 14:15 Vasoline73 wrote: I think it's pretty obvious JD is more clutch and wins when it counts more often. That being said, Flash can be incredible. Just needs to continue to work on his game/ not get too cocky and he can easily be the best in the game.
I hope that recent wins will boost him mentally and he start owning again left and right. What I like about Flash is that when he wins it seems soooo easy
He also needs more reliable team mates so he can focus more on individual leagues... I hope that ForGG, Luxury, Violet, HoeJJa and Tempest will provide more than just occasional support to Flash.
Wow, Flash just rolled over Effort in the 2nd game. Effort was completely clueless how to deal with tank-heavy mech. Poor guy, it must have really hurt. But thanks to that we will have Flash vs Bisu match! Too bad it is only bo3...
When Effort made his disastrous attack towards Flash's nat (aka the Maginot Line) Flash was upgraded to 2-2 metal, while Effort was just at 1-0 Ranged.
It's kind of funny, now a days in TvZ it seems like T is in a constant rush to do damage before Z gets too big... here it was the exact opposite.
Fast upgrades is a trademark of Flash play. But damn, his army was sooo scary. Basically tanks and SV and some vultures to lay mines and clear stuff. Crazy shit... Flash was just moving slowly but surely and Effort really really didn't know how to play against it... He kept attacking but it wasn't really making any difference.
I wonder what can you do against Flash style on desti. He used it agains GoRush some time ago and GoRush also couldn't deal with it.
Flash may have some kind of OCD spectrum condition. I think this could explain some aspects of his inconsistent play.
I have a certain amount of OCD. When I play Star Craft, I get really focused on the build order... and trying to do everything perfectly right. When I learned my first build order, I went through the first 5 minutes of it several hundred times before I got past 50 supply.
Flash keeps dropping games during the early game, and everyone just screams "build turrets!". I'm sure he is painfully aware that he keeps losing important games in this way, and his coaches certainly don't let him forget. I think an obsessive focus on the perfect build order would explain a lot, and it fits in with the key board measurement/vigorous face adjusting stuff.
On August 26 2009 14:15 Vasoline73 wrote: I think it's pretty obvious JD is more clutch and wins when it counts more often. That being said, Flash can be incredible. Just needs to continue to work on his game/ not get too cocky and he can easily be the best in the game.
I hope that recent wins will boost him mentally and he start owning again left and right. What I like about Flash is that when he wins it seems soooo easy
He also needs more reliable team mates so he can focus more on individual leagues... I hope that ForGG, Luxury, Violet, HoeJJa and Tempest will provide more than just occasional support to Flash.
Hmm I don't know if you can say that. Flash won the Gom games when they counted. He only lost once the entire tourniment. When that kid wants 45 thousand freakin dollars he gets it.
On August 26 2009 14:15 Vasoline73 wrote: I think it's pretty obvious JD is more clutch and wins when it counts more often. That being said, Flash can be incredible. Just needs to continue to work on his game/ not get too cocky and he can easily be the best in the game.
I hope that recent wins will boost him mentally and he start owning again left and right. What I like about Flash is that when he wins it seems soooo easy
He also needs more reliable team mates so he can focus more on individual leagues... I hope that ForGG, Luxury, Violet, HoeJJa and Tempest will provide more than just occasional support to Flash.
Hmm I don't know if you can say that. Flash won the Gom games when they counted. He only lost once the entire tourniment. When that kid wants 45 thousand freakin dollars he gets it.
I'm a huge Flash fan, but his GOM was pretty easy minus Iris, who I still expected Flash to roll. I'm not saying GOM isn't an achievement, because it really is.. just that it doesn't exactly make me forget... all those games he lost in clutch moments that made me facepalm. :/.
Hopefully he's fixing that problem. If I see another GGPlay or Yarnc game (MSL!?!?) my head is going to explode
EPT
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. I don't know how I'll be feeling at 2AM lol. 
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