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On July 07 2009 02:28 invy wrote:
After watching the demo I think its really worth using queens. Parasite has great vision range, and it decloaks dark templars. Very useful, and queen is also great scout herself. And parasiting one Archon is invaluable for the info you get, you could argue that queen payed itself already with only that parasite. If toss kills the archon, its quite a loss for him.
I think smaller number of queens, about 3-4, would be, at least for start, better solution for standard hydra build. Getting 6-8 queens is excessive. Parasiting 1 templar/archon and killing 3 other high templars is invaluable, and standard strategy would be that much boosted. For the cost of 4 queens, protoss would be screwed and his timings would suffer, since protoss also have to wait templar's mana pools.
It will take some apm but i think its very viable. It would be nice if some more skilled player, would try experimenting a bit with build/s - incorporating few queens in it.
I think a lot of the problems in using queens is that it's hard to get the timings down of when they regenerate the energy, and so it's also hard to keep track of them.
I imagine with enough use a good player could become quite efficient with them.
sadly though, ensnare just isn't very good against toss so they really dont have a point besides broodling.
however broodling is good against any toss unit since they are all expensive
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I was trying really hard to make this work on iccup before. It works very well if you manage to get a perfect clone at the right time, then send in all of your hydras, but that happened quite rarely in my experience. The biggest problem is the 2 minutes and 44 seconds before your queens can broodling. That's a long bloody time for which your 800/800 investment is useless. With so much money lost the protoss will easily have the superior army and can just about do as he pleases. There's no way you can stop the protoss from taking another expo like you can with muta hydra, and I'd imagine that they'd even be able to hold a 4th. Finally, dark archon feedback just decimates queens. It has 12 range and costs 75 energy.
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On July 07 2009 11:28 Wonders wrote:
I was trying really hard to make this work on iccup before. It works very well if you manage to get a perfect clone at the right time, then send in all of your hydras, but that happened quite rarely in my experience. The biggest problem is the 2 minutes and 44 seconds before your queens can broodling. That's a long bloody time for which your 800/800 investment is useless. With so much money lost the protoss will easily have the superior army and can just about do as he pleases. There's no way you can stop the protoss from taking another expo like you can with muta hydra, and I'd imagine that they'd even be able to hold a 4th. Finally, dark archon feedback just decimates queens. It has 12 range and costs 75 energy.
It cost 50 energy.
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Queens only take 2:15 to charge 150 energy, but you'll have to get your queens nest at 2:44
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Yea feedback is 50 energy, has huge range and INSTANT CAST. So a full energy DA being controled by a fast player could kill 4 queens before they can cast the broodling due to the casting delay.
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What about queens in ZvZ?
It's really easy to splash ensnare over tons of mutas and once the numbers are high enough, I honestly thinks it it worth the gas. Of course, well played ZvZ rarely gets that far but it still happens sometimes and it's quicker then getting guardians and/or plague or something.
I'm not good or anything but I've used Queens + Ensnare to win some large scale muta battles pretty decisively.
Anyone else use this trick?
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On July 08 2009 09:34 Strayline wrote:
What about queens in ZvZ?
It's really easy to splash ensnare over tons of mutas and once the numbers are high enough, I honestly thinks it it worth the gas. Of course, well played ZvZ rarely gets that far but it still happens sometimes and it's quicker then getting guardians and/or plague or something.
I'm not good or anything but I've used Queens + Ensnare to win some large scale muta battles pretty decisively.
Anyone else use this trick?
That would only ever work if the game comes to a long stalemate, which almost never happens. And if the game does go into a stalemate, I'd rather invest the gas into upgrades and plague than ensnare.
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On July 08 2009 09:43 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 09:34 Strayline wrote:
What about queens in ZvZ?
It's really easy to splash ensnare over tons of mutas and once the numbers are high enough, I honestly thinks it it worth the gas. Of course, well played ZvZ rarely gets that far but it still happens sometimes and it's quicker then getting guardians and/or plague or something.
I'm not good or anything but I've used Queens + Ensnare to win some large scale muta battles pretty decisively.
Anyone else use this trick? That would only ever work if the game comes to a long stalemate, which almost never happens. And if the game does go into a stalemate, I'd rather invest the gas into upgrades and plague than ensnare.
It's pretty nice to use whenever the game goes past both players having 2gas. Teching to queens is also alot more realistic than defilers in most cases. Getting 1 queen with ensnare requires so much less gas than getting queens nest, hive, defiler mound, consume, plague, defilers.
You can do some funny stuff when you have queens out. Like ensnaring the majority of his mutas in the middle of the map, then raiding his base to kill his spire or drones, then running away before he can come defend.
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I always thought there is a good reason why I never saw Spawn Broodling in a pro VOD (a few ensnares were seen though). Even though I thought killing units just like that is awesome.
It seems cost effective to kill high templar and many other protoss units, as well as siege tanks for terrans, even if the queen dies after killing just that one unit (100m100g for anything protoss/terran 100g +, why not). However in practice, queens take long to up their mana and thus you have to commit a lot of resources for something that you aren't getting any help from for a couple of minutes. Making 6 + queens relatively early creates a weakness gap that lasts until they get enough mana to do their thing. This would probably be well noticed and exploited by good players. Not to mention them going mass sair reaver if they see you making queens, or just making several corsairs to kill them off. I believe Feedback on DAs costs 50 mana. You can even Maelstorm them.
There would be countless strategies that would be used to nullify SB queens, but you cannot say from here since you never even see pros try them out. Killing queens is easy. Heck, a good toss could just shuttle his hts and then drop + storm when he sees an opportunity.
I wish this was possible, but there are too many reasons that say otherwise, at least on a higher level of play. Queens just can't keep with the tempo of Starcraft. Maybe in a very very unsettled, long and an economical drain game (when terrans turtle up too much after getting enough bases and try to beat you with effectiveness, you can snipe their tanks for example), they would be useful, but even then ....
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On July 08 2009 11:14 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 09:43 koreasilver wrote:On July 08 2009 09:34 Strayline wrote:
What about queens in ZvZ?
It's really easy to splash ensnare over tons of mutas and once the numbers are high enough, I honestly thinks it it worth the gas. Of course, well played ZvZ rarely gets that far but it still happens sometimes and it's quicker then getting guardians and/or plague or something.
I'm not good or anything but I've used Queens + Ensnare to win some large scale muta battles pretty decisively.
Anyone else use this trick? That would only ever work if the game comes to a long stalemate, which almost never happens. And if the game does go into a stalemate, I'd rather invest the gas into upgrades and plague than ensnare. It's pretty nice to use whenever the game goes past both players having 2gas. Teching to queens is also alot more realistic than defilers in most cases. Getting 1 queen with ensnare requires so much less gas than getting queens nest, hive, defiler mound, consume, plague, defilers. You can do some funny stuff when you have queens out. Like ensnaring the majority of his mutas in the middle of the map, then raiding his base to kill his spire or drones, then running away before he can come defend.
But plague is so much more decisive than a queen. I dunno, I've only gone to hive tech in ZvZ once, but the game was already over as I killed my opponent in the big muta fight at +2 armor timing and killed his nat and main. I only went hive to go guardians because my opponent massed like 15 spore colonies with lurkers and turtled at his third.
I'm not really sure if it's just better to go ensnare instead of plague. I've always seen pros go for plague in drawn out ZvZs, and plague does seem to be much more decisive.
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On July 08 2009 13:57 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 11:14 sixghost wrote:On July 08 2009 09:43 koreasilver wrote:On July 08 2009 09:34 Strayline wrote:
What about queens in ZvZ?
It's really easy to splash ensnare over tons of mutas and once the numbers are high enough, I honestly thinks it it worth the gas. Of course, well played ZvZ rarely gets that far but it still happens sometimes and it's quicker then getting guardians and/or plague or something.
I'm not good or anything but I've used Queens + Ensnare to win some large scale muta battles pretty decisively.
Anyone else use this trick? That would only ever work if the game comes to a long stalemate, which almost never happens. And if the game does go into a stalemate, I'd rather invest the gas into upgrades and plague than ensnare. It's pretty nice to use whenever the game goes past both players having 2gas. Teching to queens is also alot more realistic than defilers in most cases. Getting 1 queen with ensnare requires so much less gas than getting queens nest, hive, defiler mound, consume, plague, defilers. You can do some funny stuff when you have queens out. Like ensnaring the majority of his mutas in the middle of the map, then raiding his base to kill his spire or drones, then running away before he can come defend. But plague is so much more decisive than a queen. I dunno, I've only gone to hive tech in ZvZ once, but the game was already over as I killed my opponent in the big muta fight at +2 armor timing and killed his nat and main. I only went hive to go guardians because my opponent massed like 15 spore colonies with lurkers and turtled at his third. I'm not really sure if it's just better to go ensnare instead of plague. I've always seen pros go for plague in drawn out ZvZs, and plague does seem to be much more decisive.
If queen had consume i would use them. Defiler is just sooooo much better IMO.
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The bigger reason for queens rather than defilers wouldn't be the gas cost but rather that you can get queens faster than defilers, so you can hit at a faster timing. Plague is just so much better than ensnare in a muta battle that the gas cost is completely worth it. The thing that would concern me more is the time.
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ZerO vs. Bisu is your dream come true for this strat.
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konadora
Singapore66363 Posts
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Village Idiot, Zero has been reading your threads and the Queen Master has approved 
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+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah, this strat writer is going to as pleased with himself as Zero was.
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Sickest thread timing in TL history?
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EPT
