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On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: Sickest thread timing in TL history?
Agreed, heck, Bisu even went Goon Heavy + got a DA for feedback, still didnt work . OP is a friggin genius.Zero even hid the queens in a corner of the map rofl.
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On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: Sickest thread timing in TL history?
Must be.
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On July 07 2009 03:37 Elian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 03:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Great effort and a nice organization of and old but fun as hell build. But the real question, what is going to keep you from getting run over by pure goon? Answer: Nothing Good luck holding 3 bases while getting fast mass queen against a decent. And I actually think queen/hydra would work BETTER against sair reaver than against ground only play. Also you need to factor in feedback. Feedback rapes queens pretty badly. Yeah. Feedback will be a problem. Depends on the range of both I suppose. Isn't broodling seriously long range? With first strike, you might be able to dodge this problem.. but you'll definitely lose some queens in the process. The other thing is if they go pure goon, you can probably revert to standard play without that much expense.. unless you're pushing queens like a 3 hatch muta rush and saving larva [which sounds way too fast to me]. Should you survive you have the queens nest still. I don't know the effectiveness of ensnare on goons, but if you had a queen or two built you can always research that as well. Seems flexible enough to be able to adapt to that situation though, if you're scouting it.
broodling is 6, feedback is 8, one of the highest. paracite is also 8.
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Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.
One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond.
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Lol ya it was pretty funny. Spoiler is a somewhat lengthy analysis of the build used in the zero bisu game compared to the build described in this op. + Show Spoiler +Keep in mind what zero did was a lot different than whats described in the op as far as the timing and overall idea of the build. Instead of a queen "rush", its a defensive macro build for most of the game. Turtling (very well I might add) to 4 base, zero macros like a god, throwing in the extra 600/600 of queens as a finishing finesse move timed perfectly to finish the game in one attack. Instead zerg loses significant power while defending those 4 bases but if its done carefuly enough/against the right build the risk can pay off big as we saw here. Also remember that the zerg requires a large amount of time (2 minutes or so) for the queens used in the attack to become useful again so there is a significant window in time for the p to adapt should he survive the period after the initial broodlings.
I think if Bisu had used a build that mixed reavers into the build he used in this game the out come may have been strongly in bisus favor. The game would change completely if P was able to do good damage to the lurk defensive line without losing a lot of units like bisu did here. Reavers would allow a P with good micro to break such a defensive line with very little loses. The reavers coudl then be used to defend key chokes during the counter attack period after the temps have been neutralized.
From there P could/should try to hold and maintain the center base with a robo + reavers as added fortifciation. Once P controls those 2 gases they can afford to make enough temps/archons/and a few das to maintain a balanced and unstoppable death ball into the late game without the absence of temps(the das would eventually stop the queen threat, with either maelstrom + goons if z is careless and clumps them a bit or loses track, or feedback).
Of course mixing in reavers into your army creates a whole new set of weaknesses that zerg can exploit so its by no means simple. But I think reaver on heartbreak is a good idea no matter what zerg is doing. Its a strong unit for the layout of that map. Mainly because of the high/narrow ground near the ridges that force units close together, but also the mobility of speed shuttles to harass the spread out bases, and the layout of the map which often causes zerg to mass lurkers to defend/redefend key uphill locations on both sides of the map depending on where p goes. With reavers it forces the zerg to leave this strong position and either come down the hill to engage, or retreat and give up the position.
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On July 08 2009 20:37 baubo wrote: Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.
One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond. Yes it was nice, but a lot of the time it can backfire if P is more active with there sairs/obs. Its entirely possible for a sair or ob to fly a little too close and give away the position of your queens, making the task at hand much much more difficult.
While queens looked extremely powerful in this game, I don't see them becoming a staple of zerg play anytime too soon. Not to say that it can't happen.
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Germany2762 Posts
On July 07 2009 02:28 invy wrote: After watching the demo I think its really worth using queens. Parasite has great vision range, and it decloaks dark templars. Very useful, and queen is also great scout herself. And parasiting one Archon is invaluable for the info you get, you could argue that queen payed itself already with only that parasite. If toss kills the archon, its quite a loss for him.
I think smaller number of queens, about 3-4, would be, at least for start, better solution for standard hydra build. Getting 6-8 queens is excessive. Parasiting 1 templar/archon and killing 3 other high templars is invaluable, and standard strategy would be that much boosted. For the cost of 4 queens, protoss would be screwed and his timings would suffer, since protoss also have to wait templar's mana pools.
It will take some apm but i think its very viable. It would be nice if some more skilled player, would try experimenting a bit with build/s - incorporating few queens in it.
it decloaks dts? but only if you parasite themself i guess. or does the parasited unit decloak nearby cloaked units? o_O
this would be quite cool actually... then i'd get a single queen to parasite my own units to get more mobile detectors. parasited ling + burrow at mineral line + sunk = safe from dt harass o_O
clarification please :D
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On July 08 2009 20:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 20:37 baubo wrote: Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.
One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond. Yes it was nice, but a lot of the time it can backfire if P is more active with there sairs/obs. Its entirely possible for a sair or ob to fly a little too close and give away the position of your queens, making the task at hand much much more difficult. While queens looked extremely powerful in this game, I don't see them becoming a staple of zerg play anytime too soon. Not to say that it can't happen.
Orbs are always placed in front of the protoss army to find lurkers. So unless the protoss actively seek out queens, the orbs are not going to be placed well enough to find them. Not to mention you can always scout with an ovie beforehand to make sure. As for corsairs, the zerg can simply react and not make queens in the first place.
I agree that it's not something that can be a staple of ZvP. Because it is situational. But it does appear that Zero's usage of it in this game definitely worked better than if he had just made mutas the standard way. What really amazed me is how those queens were even capable of using broodling twice in the game, which is one of the problems mentioned here against the usage.
Still, you have to have some damn good micro ability to use it well though. And Zero is really, really fast.
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On July 08 2009 20:37 Vex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 03:37 Elian wrote:On July 07 2009 03:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Great effort and a nice organization of and old but fun as hell build. But the real question, what is going to keep you from getting run over by pure goon? Answer: Nothing Good luck holding 3 bases while getting fast mass queen against a decent. And I actually think queen/hydra would work BETTER against sair reaver than against ground only play. Also you need to factor in feedback. Feedback rapes queens pretty badly. Yeah. Feedback will be a problem. Depends on the range of both I suppose. Isn't broodling seriously long range? With first strike, you might be able to dodge this problem.. but you'll definitely lose some queens in the process. The other thing is if they go pure goon, you can probably revert to standard play without that much expense.. unless you're pushing queens like a 3 hatch muta rush and saving larva [which sounds way too fast to me]. Should you survive you have the queens nest still. I don't know the effectiveness of ensnare on goons, but if you had a queen or two built you can always research that as well. Seems flexible enough to be able to adapt to that situation though, if you're scouting it. broodling is 6, feedback is 8, one of the highest. paracite is also 8.
Blizzard begs to differ:
http://classic.battle.net/scc/zerg/special.shtml http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/special.shtml
Parasite has 12 range, Broodling has 9, Feedback has 10.
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On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter. Just throwing that out there... Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build. ... Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters.
This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it.
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On July 08 2009 22:21 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter. Just throwing that out there... Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build. ... Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters. This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it.
Umm, a fellow progamer Zerg used it vs the best Toss in the world, it worked. Just read the thead. + If you parasite a enemy unit you get its sight, so you see the enemy dts and cloaked units.
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On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: Sickest thread timing in TL history? I doubt it. This is way too much for a coincidence. How many days are there in a year times how many years pro starcraft have existed for. That's a 1/3650 = 0.002% chance that this is a coincidence.
Either Village Idiot is actually Zero posting here to troll us. Or he has psychic abilities. There is no other viable alternative.
(I'm not speculating, this is Science)
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On July 08 2009 22:40 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 22:21 Kaniol wrote:On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter. Just throwing that out there... Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build. ... Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters. This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it. Umm, a fellow progamer Zerg used it vs the best Toss in the world, it worked. Just read the thead. + If you parasite a enemy unit you get its sight, so you see the enemy dts and cloaked units. I saw that game live. And "the best Toss in the world" is IMO nowadays sloppy as every Korean protoss ATM.
Also about parasites - did i state other way? But good luck trying parasiting whole protoss army so that none unit is hidden by arbiter Either parasite obs or ensnare whats under arb.
Plus - Zero is not just "fellow progamer Zerg" - he is great Zerg capable of defeating "best Toss in the world", as we just saw in that game. I'm not gonna argue if Zero would win that game w/o queens but i'm sure that they were not game-breakers - he just used them but they didn't turn the tables, he was able to win that games w/o them.
And besides you didn't read my post did you? Because i'm sure that Bisu did NOT practice vs that build. I'll quote myself so that you can read again part which you prolly didn't pay attention to: "This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it."
Would you call nukes powerful just because Boxer won few games with them? Or medic's blind ability? It's just fun thing, no revolution there bro!
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We just don't know. Let's just say, the pros adapted Zero's build and they tried to master it add a few tweaks to it? Maybe, we can see it as an additional strategy for ZvP and of course, protoss would have also made some counters to it.
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This thread has just turned epic. Well done, I'm looking forward to the near future of PvZ, with this and the reinvented slowdrop (More 2gate in the leagues? yes please:D)
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On July 08 2009 23:49 538 wrote:This thread has just turned epic. Well done, I'm looking forward to the near future of PvZ, with this and the reinvented slowdrop (More 2gate in the leagues? yes please:D)
yeah whatever leads to more variation other than FE
although map pools favour FE strongly in favour..
where's the good ol 1 gate!?
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hmm looks like progamers are also browsing and reading TL xD
it was an awesome tactic by Zero , just a shame that he used it on my fav gamer ... i cannot wait to see more tactics of this kind , its just awesome to watch .
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