• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:09
CEST 12:09
KST 19:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task7[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak14DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview19herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)17Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6
Community News
[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)8Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14
StarCraft 2
General
Interview with oPZesty on Cheeseadelphia/Coaching herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Power Rank: October 2018 Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task [ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak ASL 19 Tickets for foreigners BW General Discussion Cwal.gg not working
Tourneys
[ASL19] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] RO20 Group C - Saturday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11948 users

[G] Queen Hydra in ZvP - Page 5

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
July 08 2009 11:19 GMT
#81
On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote:
Sickest thread timing in TL history?


Agreed, heck, Bisu even went Goon Heavy + got a DA for feedback, still didnt work . OP is a friggin genius.Zero even hid the queens in a corner of the map rofl.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
July 08 2009 11:20 GMT
#82
On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote:
Sickest thread timing in TL history?


Must be.
ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
anch
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States5457 Posts
July 08 2009 11:35 GMT
#83
OP is coach from WJS.
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
July 08 2009 11:37 GMT
#84
On July 07 2009 03:37 Elian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 03:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Great effort and a nice organization of and old but fun as hell build.


But the real question, what is going to keep you from getting run over by pure goon?

Answer: Nothing

Good luck holding 3 bases while getting fast mass queen against a decent.

And I actually think queen/hydra would work BETTER against sair reaver than against ground only play.

Also you need to factor in feedback. Feedback rapes queens pretty badly.


Yeah. Feedback will be a problem. Depends on the range of both I suppose. Isn't broodling seriously long range? With first strike, you might be able to dodge this problem.. but you'll definitely lose some queens in the process.

The other thing is if they go pure goon, you can probably revert to standard play without that much expense.. unless you're pushing queens like a 3 hatch muta rush and saving larva [which sounds way too fast to me]. Should you survive you have the queens nest still. I don't know the effectiveness of ensnare on goons, but if you had a queen or two built you can always research that as well.

Seems flexible enough to be able to adapt to that situation though, if you're scouting it.



broodling is 6, feedback is 8, one of the highest. paracite is also 8.
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-08 11:38:18
July 08 2009 11:37 GMT
#85
Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.

One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond.
Meh
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-08 11:43:06
July 08 2009 11:37 GMT
#86
Lol ya it was pretty funny. Spoiler is a somewhat lengthy analysis of the build used in the zero bisu game compared to the build described in this op.

+ Show Spoiler +
Keep in mind what zero did was a lot different than whats described in the op as far as the timing and overall idea of the build. Instead of a queen "rush", its a defensive macro build for most of the game. Turtling (very well I might add) to 4 base, zero macros like a god, throwing in the extra 600/600 of queens as a finishing finesse move timed perfectly to finish the game in one attack. Instead zerg loses significant power while defending those 4 bases but if its done carefuly enough/against the right build the risk can pay off big as we saw here. Also remember that the zerg requires a large amount of time (2 minutes or so) for the queens used in the attack to become useful again so there is a significant window in time for the p to adapt should he survive the period after the initial broodlings.

I think if Bisu had used a build that mixed reavers into the build he used in this game the out come may have been strongly in bisus favor. The game would change completely if P was able to do good damage to the lurk defensive line without losing a lot of units like bisu did here. Reavers would allow a P with good micro to break such a defensive line with very little loses. The reavers coudl then be used to defend key chokes during the counter attack period after the temps have been neutralized.

From there P could/should try to hold and maintain the center base with a robo + reavers as added fortifciation. Once P controls those 2 gases they can afford to make enough temps/archons/and a few das to maintain a balanced and unstoppable death ball into the late game without the absence of temps(the das would eventually stop the queen threat, with either maelstrom + goons if z is careless and clumps them a bit or loses track, or feedback).

Of course mixing in reavers into your army creates a whole new set of weaknesses that zerg can exploit so its by no means simple. But I think reaver on heartbreak is a good idea no matter what zerg is doing. Its a strong unit for the layout of that map. Mainly because of the high/narrow ground near the ridges that force units close together, but also the mobility of speed shuttles to harass the spread out bases, and the layout of the map which often causes zerg to mass lurkers to defend/redefend key uphill locations on both sides of the map depending on where p goes. With reavers it forces the zerg to leave this strong position and either come down the hill to engage, or retreat and give up the position.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 08 2009 11:45 GMT
#87
On July 08 2009 20:37 baubo wrote:
Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.

One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond.

Yes it was nice, but a lot of the time it can backfire if P is more active with there sairs/obs. Its entirely possible for a sair or ob to fly a little too close and give away the position of your queens, making the task at hand much much more difficult.

While queens looked extremely powerful in this game, I don't see them becoming a staple of zerg play anytime too soon. Not to say that it can't happen.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
jhNz
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Germany2762 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-08 12:02:05
July 08 2009 12:00 GMT
#88
On July 07 2009 02:28 invy wrote:
After watching the demo I think its really worth using queens. Parasite has great vision range, and it decloaks dark templars. Very useful, and queen is also great scout herself. And parasiting one Archon is invaluable for the info you get, you could argue that queen payed itself already with only that parasite. If toss kills the archon, its quite a loss for him.

I think smaller number of queens, about 3-4, would be, at least for start, better solution for standard hydra build. Getting 6-8 queens is excessive. Parasiting 1 templar/archon and killing 3 other high templars is invaluable, and standard strategy would be that much boosted. For the cost of 4 queens, protoss would be screwed and his timings would suffer, since protoss also have to wait templar's mana pools.

It will take some apm but i think its very viable. It would be nice if some more skilled player, would try experimenting a bit with build/s - incorporating few queens in it.


it decloaks dts? but only if you parasite themself i guess. or does the parasited unit decloak nearby cloaked units? o_O

this would be quite cool actually... then i'd get a single queen to parasite my own units to get more mobile detectors. parasited ling + burrow at mineral line + sunk = safe from dt harass o_O

clarification please :D
http://twitter.com/jhNz
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
July 08 2009 12:23 GMT
#89
On July 08 2009 20:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2009 20:37 baubo wrote:
Note: Names not used to preserve the spoiler.

One thing I got to note though is how the zerg player used the terrain to his advantage. By hiding his queens on cliffs. He could quickly clone the broodlings without the protoss even knowing what's going on. This wouldn't have happened on a more open map. But on maps with such terrain, it's very good because you can basically sneak attack. Whereas mutas don't have the range to get rid of the temps before the protoss army could respond.

Yes it was nice, but a lot of the time it can backfire if P is more active with there sairs/obs. Its entirely possible for a sair or ob to fly a little too close and give away the position of your queens, making the task at hand much much more difficult.

While queens looked extremely powerful in this game, I don't see them becoming a staple of zerg play anytime too soon. Not to say that it can't happen.


Orbs are always placed in front of the protoss army to find lurkers. So unless the protoss actively seek out queens, the orbs are not going to be placed well enough to find them. Not to mention you can always scout with an ovie beforehand to make sure. As for corsairs, the zerg can simply react and not make queens in the first place.

I agree that it's not something that can be a staple of ZvP. Because it is situational. But it does appear that Zero's usage of it in this game definitely worked better than if he had just made mutas the standard way. What really amazed me is how those queens were even capable of using broodling twice in the game, which is one of the problems mentioned here against the usage.

Still, you have to have some damn good micro ability to use it well though. And Zero is really, really fast.
Meh
FaCE_1
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Canada6165 Posts
July 08 2009 12:57 GMT
#90
+ Show Spoiler +
This thread will kick Bisu out of OSL T_T
n_n
EvoChamber
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France2505 Posts
July 08 2009 13:06 GMT
#91
On July 08 2009 20:37 Vex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 03:37 Elian wrote:
On July 07 2009 03:25 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Great effort and a nice organization of and old but fun as hell build.


But the real question, what is going to keep you from getting run over by pure goon?

Answer: Nothing

Good luck holding 3 bases while getting fast mass queen against a decent.

And I actually think queen/hydra would work BETTER against sair reaver than against ground only play.

Also you need to factor in feedback. Feedback rapes queens pretty badly.


Yeah. Feedback will be a problem. Depends on the range of both I suppose. Isn't broodling seriously long range? With first strike, you might be able to dodge this problem.. but you'll definitely lose some queens in the process.

The other thing is if they go pure goon, you can probably revert to standard play without that much expense.. unless you're pushing queens like a 3 hatch muta rush and saving larva [which sounds way too fast to me]. Should you survive you have the queens nest still. I don't know the effectiveness of ensnare on goons, but if you had a queen or two built you can always research that as well.

Seems flexible enough to be able to adapt to that situation though, if you're scouting it.



broodling is 6, feedback is 8, one of the highest. paracite is also 8.


Blizzard begs to differ:

http://classic.battle.net/scc/zerg/special.shtml
http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/special.shtml

Parasite has 12 range, Broodling has 9, Feedback has 10.
That's not awful writing, DAMMIT. It's perfectly sensical english construction.
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-08 13:17:32
July 08 2009 13:14 GMT
#92
Bump:
+ Show Spoiler [Spoiler of Relatively Recent Game] +

EDIT: lmao, I used the search function for this, until I realized I'm not actually bumping it -_-.
EDIT2: Didn't read last page before posting. I guess the YT link could be useful anyways?
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
July 08 2009 13:21 GMT
#93
On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter.
Just throwing that out there...


Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build.

...

Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters.

This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
July 08 2009 13:40 GMT
#94
On July 08 2009 22:21 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:
On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter.
Just throwing that out there...


Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build.

...

Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters.

This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it.


Umm, a fellow progamer Zerg used it vs the best Toss in the world, it worked. Just read the thead. + If you parasite a enemy unit you get its sight, so you see the enemy dts and cloaked units.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-08 14:28:30
July 08 2009 14:14 GMT
#95
On July 08 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote:
Sickest thread timing in TL history?
I doubt it. This is way too much for a coincidence. How many days are there in a year times how many years pro starcraft have existed for. That's a 1/3650 = 0.002% chance that this is a coincidence.

Either Village Idiot is actually Zero posting here to troll us. Or he has psychic abilities. There is no other viable alternative.

(I'm not speculating, this is Science)
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
July 08 2009 14:34 GMT
#96
On July 08 2009 22:40 samachking wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 08 2009 22:21 Kaniol wrote:
On July 07 2009 05:54 Empyrean wrote:
On July 07 2009 05:04 Pyro]v[aniac wrote:
did you guys know that parasited detectors also detect for you as well as give you their vision. So if you parasite one of thier obs, you will see thier DT's, or better yet see all the units under an arbiter.
Just throwing that out there...


Oh yes, parasiting Arbiters completely counters the ever-popular Arbiter rush PvZ build.

...

Arbiters aren't detectors. Parasited DETECTORS detect for you, not parasited arbiters.

This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it.


Umm, a fellow progamer Zerg used it vs the best Toss in the world, it worked. Just read the thead. + If you parasite a enemy unit you get its sight, so you see the enemy dts and cloaked units.

I saw that game live. And "the best Toss in the world" is IMO nowadays sloppy as every Korean protoss ATM.

Also about parasites - did i state other way? But good luck trying parasiting whole protoss army so that none unit is hidden by arbiter Either parasite obs or ensnare whats under arb.

Plus - Zero is not just "fellow progamer Zerg" - he is great Zerg capable of defeating "best Toss in the world", as we just saw in that game.
I'm not gonna argue if Zero would win that game w/o queens but i'm sure that they were not game-breakers - he just used them but they didn't turn the tables, he was able to win that games w/o them.

And besides you didn't read my post did you? Because i'm sure that Bisu did NOT practice vs that build. I'll quote myself so that you can read again part which you prolly didn't pay attention to: "This build CAN work but only as fun build - like stove, some kind of nuke rush wariation or some other weird build that will work because noone really practised against it."

Would you call nukes powerful just because Boxer won few games with them? Or medic's blind ability? It's just fun thing, no revolution there bro!
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 08 2009 14:41 GMT
#97
We just don't know. Let's just say, the pros adapted Zero's build and they tried to master it add a few tweaks to it? Maybe, we can see it as an additional strategy for ZvP and of course, protoss would have also made some counters to it.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
538
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Hungary3932 Posts
July 08 2009 14:49 GMT
#98
This thread has just turned epic.
Well done, I'm looking forward to the near future of PvZ, with this and the reinvented slowdrop (More 2gate in the leagues? yes please:D)
BW fighting!
imperfect
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada1652 Posts
July 08 2009 14:52 GMT
#99
On July 08 2009 23:49 538 wrote:
This thread has just turned epic.
Well done, I'm looking forward to the near future of PvZ, with this and the reinvented slowdrop (More 2gate in the leagues? yes please:D)


yeah whatever leads to more variation other than FE

although map pools favour FE strongly in favour..

where's the good ol 1 gate!?
blind bisu free and anytime fanboy.
Sinedd
Profile Joined July 2008
Poland7052 Posts
July 08 2009 14:55 GMT
#100
hmm looks like progamers are also browsing and reading TL xD

it was an awesome tactic by Zero , just a shame that he used it on my fav gamer ...
i cannot wait to see more tactics of this kind , its just awesome to watch .
T H C makes ppl happy
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
10:00
2025 GSL S2 - Qualifiers
CranKy Ducklings54
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EnDerr 28
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23463
Pusan 1397
Horang2 1045
EffOrt 744
Bisu 381
Shuttle 329
TY 163
hero 71
HiyA 55
sSak 34
[ Show more ]
Backho 31
Last 27
Movie 24
Sacsri 17
NaDa 16
Bale 3
ivOry 1
Dota 2
Dendi2025
XcaliburYe596
League of Legends
JimRising 403
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King114
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor224
Other Games
B2W.Neo1483
mouzStarbuck470
Fuzer 289
SortOf184
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick701
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH263
• Dystopia_ 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota281
League of Legends
• Stunt596
Upcoming Events
AllThingsProtoss
51m
SC Evo League
1h 51m
Road to EWC
4h 51m
BSL Season 20
7h 51m
Dewalt vs TT1
UltrA vs HBO
WolFix vs TBD
Afreeca Starleague
18h 51m
BeSt vs Soulkey
AllThingsProtoss
1d
Road to EWC
1d 3h
Wardi Open
2 days
SOOP
2 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
The PondCast
3 days
Online Event
4 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
4 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.