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On July 08 2009 23:34 Kaniol wrote:
Plus - Zero is not just "fellow progamer Zerg" - he is great Zerg capable of defeating "best Toss in the world", as we just saw in that game.
I'm not gonna argue if Zero would win that game w/o queens but i'm sure that they were not game-breakers - he just used them but they didn't turn the tables, he was able to win that games w/o them.
wtf?
You're not gonna argue whether zero would have won that game without queens, then the very next sentence you jump out and say "he just used them but they didn't turn the tables, he was able to win that games w/o them."
How much dumber does it get?
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On July 09 2009 17:02 Warrior Madness wrote:
ee-han-timing
^^
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To people saying he would've won without them - storm would've raped the shit out of him. Queens basically made that sick sandwich possible.
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lol, queens are good for parasiting critters particulary those birds(kakarus?) free maphack on maps with a lot of them.
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On July 08 2009 23:14 VIB wrote:I doubt it. This is way too much for a coincidence. How many days are there in a year times how many years pro starcraft have existed for. That's a 1/3650 = 0.002% chance that this is a coincidence. Either Village Idiot is actually Zero posting here to troll us. Or he has psychic abilities. There is no other viable alternative. (I'm not speculating, this is Science)
seriously. this thread is hall of fame material
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On July 09 2009 23:50 tobi9999 wrote:
lol, queens are good for parasiting critters particulary those birds(kakarus?) free maphack on maps with a lot of them.
Not really...check out the 4th post in the thread:
On October 23 2008 09:44 Empyrean wrote:
The most effective use of Parasite is in its "soft power" ability. What I mean by that is that it basically shuts down the use of whatever unit it's targeting. If, say, you target an expensive like an Archon, you either force it to show you the unit composition of its army through its vision, or force the Protoss to basically abandon the unit so that it doesn't show much. If, say, he just puts it in a corner somewhere so he doesn't show his tech, it can't be used against you. And if he decides to actually use it, you get to see his army and some positions of it, even if he brings it in at the last moment. Either way, you either get an advantage in information or an relative advantage in power (as compared to if the Archon had not been parasitized). Additionally, Parasite can be used on other "important" units such as Shuttles or Science Vessels. Certainly, those units are used often by the enemy, and if he's forced to just abandon that unit somewhere so he doesn't reveal the location of the impending Reaver drop or Irradiate raid, you'll have countered the utility of that unit, effectively costing him whatever the unit cost was for that unit.
I'll also mention the cliched uses of Parasite. Yes, you can parasite creatures and enemy workers. It's actually not as effective as going after a high-value enemy target. They'll probably suicide the worker (though yes, you'll have seen some buildings and such), and you don't have control over any critters. That's why I advocate using it on targets such as Science Vessels/High Templar/etc.
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On July 09 2009 11:57 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2009 06:18 Apex wrote:
Ahahahha, that's what I call a Timing Post.
Is Village Idiot a psychic? He doesn't even need to defend the strategy as feasible now. Zero just did that for him. L O L
Once again i'd like to remind people that zero's build is a lot different than village idiots(beyond the obvious execution / difficulty of opponent issues). The build, exactly as the op describes it, is NOT viable at high level play. But still the concept timing was so great lol.
Yes. The point of village_idiot's build is, presumably, to stop the P's push to take their 3rd, which should come a lot earlier (because you don't have mutas preventing it). Queen/hydra seems really aggressive, whereas Zero's strategy was purely defensive, and at a much later timing.
On July 07 2009 00:11 village_idiot wrote:
This build requires good economy and is meant to counter the Protoss FE by containing the Protoss to 2 bases or ending the game in a hydra break.
Sorry for the groundless statement, but neither a "good" economy nor containing P to 2 bases is going to be possible with the build you outlined. I think ensnare+hydra would work better, too 
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Bosnia-Herzegovina41 Posts
Zero again in last match used one queen - parasited an archon :x
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On July 11 2009 00:12 invy wrote:
Zero again in last match used one queen - parasited an archon :x
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On July 11 2009 00:12 invy wrote:
Zero again in last match used one queen - parasited an archon :x
And DA 
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i'm really un convinced by the "DAs counter queens" arguement... in both of zeros games where he's used queens vP the toss player has made DAs and they've done just about nothing! DAs cost 250/200! over twice what a queen costs, and take the use of 2 gateways so they seem quite impractical for massing as defense...
zeros queens did almost nothing after the initial 5-6 templar snipe, but with that attack he destroyed bisus army. after that, iirc he only did one parasite for the whole rest of the game, but the advantage he had from there allowed him to run bisu over, bisu might have been better served with more goon than that DA as zero killed him before getting enough energy to spawn broodlings again.
theorycrafting... if zero had researched ensnare after broodlings (i don't remember how much that costs), with a timing to finish sometime after that first snipe attack (so fairly late in the game) those queens might have been useful again (as ensnare only takes 75 energy, which zero must have reached cause he used parasite) for ensnare flanks/countering any corsair play later... thoughts?
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That's because in his game vs. Bisu, Bisu had no idea that Zero was revolving his game around killing off his templars with a large number of queens, and by the time Bisu got a DA the game was already over.
In the second game against whoever it was, Zero only made one queen to fake out his opponent, and his opponent, due to Zero's previous ZvP on the map against Bisu, made a precautionary DA but Zero wasn't planning on doing what he did to Bisu, and therefore the DA became a waste of resources.
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with the recent use of Valkaries by Fantasy
and Queens by Jaedong in ZvT
and now in by ZerO in ZvP? thats why I love this game.
ive seen people just FLAMED for even suggesting these units are usefull.
ZerO/BisU was one of the best games ive seen in a long time.
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i tried this build in some variations on C level
it works great against worse protosses but against protosses with a good skill level the strategy has to be modified because it is very vulnerable to some sort of aggressive play like fe into cors into 3 gate speedlots
i think the best way is to build up as usual and get more defensive by building lurkers and try to accumulate queens afterwards
still it is really difficult to hide your queens until they have 150 energy because you have to waste energy on ensnare against aggressive protoss players since your defense suffers from spending money on queens
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Your replay didn't prove much since your opponent attempted and failed a cheese. You were ahead by so much at that point that it didn't matter what you had used. He also didn't make any corsairs so mutas would've been even more effective.
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Germany7312 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 07 2009 00:15 Plexa wrote:
Interesting I'm not going to bother debating the merits of Queen/Hydra as opposed to anything else because really, thats irrelevant in a thread like this (although its going to come up... *sigh*).
As an advocate of the Sair/Goon PvT I approve of this thread!![QUOTE]
I always was a fan of Sairs in PvT, but i could never really make a good BO for it, also I think that queens in PvZ would work as a surprise atack but if it were scouted i think it would be easily countered. But worth a try.
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After reading this thread, seeing the Zero game and playing some games it has become painfully apparent that the build I suggested in the original post sucks ass. It only works as a very fun all-in, which leaves you massively behind economically and leaves you extremely vulnerable to pretty much everything the P throws at you before your Queens get full energy.
The problem is making so many Queens so early in the game, which screws you up big time.
To fix this I would not go and try invent a whole new way of playing the matchup, but integrate slight Queen usage into regular play.
I'm talking about going the standard muta hydra route, but investing into 2 queens as soon as you get your Lair. The way I see it you would get 2 Broodling charges slightly before 9:00 and again at slightly before 12:20. This way you would essentially get 4 "free" templar kills relatively early in the game for a slight delay in everything. This could also trick the Protoss into making a Dark Archon for a measly 2 queens.
How this would slow down your economy:
100/100 for a Queen's Nest when Lair finishes
200/200 for two Queens when Nest finishes
100/100 for Broodling when Queens have 110 energy
Just throwing this in the air and theorising, please share your view on the matter.
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I haven't been able to find this answer in this thread yet. What happens to vision if you parasite a ground unit and a shuttle picks it up? Does the vision stop and continue when dropped, or does it temporarily transfer to the shuttle?
Also, if you parasite an observer, do you gain detector vision?
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On July 17 2009 01:24 Hung wrote:
Also, if you parasite an observer, do you gain detector vision?
You wouldn't get detector vision because the observer would only detect your own units since it is your opponent's observer.
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EPT
