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[G] Queen Hydra in ZvP - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
July 06 2009 21:22 GMT
#41
Not to mention you will either get rolled, or the protoss will take a 3rd without you being able to do much about it, if you are saving up 800/800 for queens. You can do this with mutas because mutas are instantly effective against HT/zealots etc.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-06 22:37:29
July 06 2009 22:28 GMT
#42
If queen were good progamers would use them more often. It's as simple as that.

edit: i wish i played more zergs that thought like OP.
meow
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-06 22:31:09
July 06 2009 22:30 GMT
#43
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.
generic88
Profile Joined December 2008
United States118 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-06 22:56:55
July 06 2009 22:55 GMT
#44
On July 07 2009 07:28 Probe. wrote:
If queen were good progamers would use them more often. It's as simple as that.

edit: i wish i played more zergs that thought like OP.


If Valkyries were good progamers would use them more often. It's as simple as that.

If you don't get what I'm saying it is this, Valkyries have only been being used more often in TvZ very recently. The game is still changing and Pro-gamers are not the only ones capable of developing new strategies.
Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
July 06 2009 22:55 GMT
#45
I played a ZvP on Andromeda the other day where I made queens. At first it was because he'd turtled so hard, I'd taken the map, and I had no scout on him or his army whatsoever so I parasited the neutral kakaroo thing and waited for it to fly over his base. It took so long that I just parasited the first thing I saw in his base, which happened to be a corsair.

Turns out he was going carriers. Instead of overreacting and building a ton of devourers, I built about 15 queens and started moving them around his base in a taunt. Then I built a lot of devourers. I'd say that's pretty close to the most useful a queen has ever been for me.
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
Mobius
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1268 Posts
July 06 2009 23:09 GMT
#46
150min/gas for brood is a huge investment in the beginning of the game..
Entusman #51
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
July 06 2009 23:17 GMT
#47
It was an interesting guide, but i think that queens could be used more effectively if ensnare was simply used.

Zerg units have a higher ROF and DPS than protoss units, and really ensnare is just going to make this difference even more pronounced. Goon micro would be pointless, and because ensnare is only 100/100 and 2/3 queens 100/100 I feel that it could be a very viable thing to do during the midlate / early late game.

Just simply cut out a muta or two or delay your lurker upgrade (if you are playing 5 hatch hydra)

That i think would easily be able to benefit zerg in the late game. You will still have the muta out, and the protoss army is going to be severely hampered.

Really i feel that heavy queen use could be a great counter to mass range goon templar. Just for the simple fact of the ROF and DPS difference that ensnared goons would be dealing with against hydra. In that respect i feel that the queen could be the most useful. However broodling is just too much of an investment, and the 150mp cost is too great.

Once again- nice guide and thanks for the great writeup it was very thought provoking.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 06 2009 23:29 GMT
#48
On July 07 2009 07:28 Probe. wrote:
If queen were good progamers would use them more often. It's as simple as that.

edit: i wish i played more zergs that thought like OP.

Read jaedong's interview on queens and ensnare. Yes broodling sucks but even jaedong thinks ensnare could be quite good.

He basically says it could be very good but not even he has the apm to do everything that needs to be done AND use queens effectively but he works on it in practice sometimes.

So not its not that simple. Besides parasite is very useful. If youve started hive, might as well make a queen to be honest. Just for the parasite and possible cc infest. So many games I get a cc to yellow and think hey...if only I had a queen right now...
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 06 2009 23:32 GMT
#49
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.

Ya thought that one was pretty freaking obvious lol.

Ever chased a sair across the map with 2 scourge?

Ever watched any pro zvp in the last 6 months? It's pretty clear they are exactly the same speed.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 06 2009 23:33 GMT
#50
On July 07 2009 07:55 Arrian wrote:
I played a ZvP on Andromeda the other day where I made queens. At first it was because he'd turtled so hard, I'd taken the map, and I had no scout on him or his army whatsoever so I parasited the neutral kakaroo thing and waited for it to fly over his base. It took so long that I just parasited the first thing I saw in his base, which happened to be a corsair.

Turns out he was going carriers. Instead of overreacting and building a ton of devourers, I built about 15 queens and started moving them around his base in a taunt. Then I built a lot of devourers. I'd say that's pretty close to the most useful a queen has ever been for me.

Ok so basically what youre trying to say is that you suck at bw?

I see I see...very interesting.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
APurpleCow
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1372 Posts
July 06 2009 23:34 GMT
#51
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.


You sure about that?

I've seen a scourge catch up and kill a corsair that was running away from it many times. In my experience scourge are VERY slightly faster than Corsair.

I use queens sometimes against Sair/DT, Sair/Reavers, and 2 port Wraith for Ensnare. They're always pretty awesome.
Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
July 06 2009 23:39 GMT
#52
On July 07 2009 08:33 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 07:55 Arrian wrote:
I played a ZvP on Andromeda the other day where I made queens. At first it was because he'd turtled so hard, I'd taken the map, and I had no scout on him or his army whatsoever so I parasited the neutral kakaroo thing and waited for it to fly over his base. It took so long that I just parasited the first thing I saw in his base, which happened to be a corsair.

Turns out he was going carriers. Instead of overreacting and building a ton of devourers, I built about 15 queens and started moving them around his base in a taunt. Then I built a lot of devourers. I'd say that's pretty close to the most useful a queen has ever been for me.

Ok so basically what youre trying to say is that you suck at bw?

I see I see...very interesting.


I challenge you to a ZvZ queens only to defend my honor! If nothing else, my queen taunting micro is unrivaled. You cannot hope to win, because my broodlings are magical and never run out of energy.
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
July 06 2009 23:40 GMT
#53
I'd just ensnare DTs to reveal them instead of using parasite to reveal them in most cases.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
July 06 2009 23:41 GMT
#54
No. Scourge are not faster.

In those instances the P probably made a slight turn torwards the angle the scourge was comming from since the scourge was probably RIGHT behind it the scourge caught up.

If scourge really were slightly faster than they would ALWAYS catch a sair running in a staight line across the map but instead they NEVER do. Keep in mind, the sair path has to be perfectly straight and if it does turn it needs to be a sharp angle/an angle away from the angle the scourge is comming at.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
July 06 2009 23:41 GMT
#55
On July 07 2009 08:29 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 07:28 Probe. wrote:
If queen were good progamers would use them more often. It's as simple as that.

edit: i wish i played more zergs that thought like OP.

Read jaedong's interview on queens and ensnare. Yes broodling sucks but even jaedong thinks ensnare could be quite good.

He basically says it could be very good but not even he has the apm to do everything that needs to be done AND use queens effectively but he works on it in practice sometimes.

So not its not that simple. Besides parasite is very useful. If youve started hive, might as well make a queen to be honest. Just for the parasite and possible cc infest. So many games I get a cc to yellow and think hey...if only I had a queen right now...


Look if jaedong can't use queens effectively, no one can. GIVE UP.
meow
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 06 2009 23:48 GMT
#56
On July 07 2009 08:34 APurpleCow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.


You sure about that?

I've seen a scourge catch up and kill a corsair that was running away from it many times. In my experience scourge are VERY slightly faster than Corsair.

I use queens sometimes against Sair/DT, Sair/Reavers, and 2 port Wraith for Ensnare. They're always pretty awesome.

Yes, I am very sure about it as I have witnessed my scourge chase corsairs over the entire length of Destination with the distance between my scourge and the corsairs stay exactly the same until I had to pull them back before they run into cannons.

They're exactly the same speed.
APurpleCow
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1372 Posts
July 07 2009 00:04 GMT
#57
On July 07 2009 08:48 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 08:34 APurpleCow wrote:
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.


You sure about that?

I've seen a scourge catch up and kill a corsair that was running away from it many times. In my experience scourge are VERY slightly faster than Corsair.

I use queens sometimes against Sair/DT, Sair/Reavers, and 2 port Wraith for Ensnare. They're always pretty awesome.

Yes, I am very sure about it as I have witnessed my scourge chase corsairs over the entire length of Destination with the distance between my scourge and the corsairs stay exactly the same until I had to pull them back before they run into cannons.

They're exactly the same speed.


I just tested it.

With a corsair moving straight at full speed, no commands being given to it, and a Scourge chasing it, the Scourge will catch up VERY VERY VERY slowly.
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
July 07 2009 00:12 GMT
#58
On July 07 2009 09:04 APurpleCow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 08:48 koreasilver wrote:
On July 07 2009 08:34 APurpleCow wrote:
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.


You sure about that?

I've seen a scourge catch up and kill a corsair that was running away from it many times. In my experience scourge are VERY slightly faster than Corsair.

I use queens sometimes against Sair/DT, Sair/Reavers, and 2 port Wraith for Ensnare. They're always pretty awesome.

Yes, I am very sure about it as I have witnessed my scourge chase corsairs over the entire length of Destination with the distance between my scourge and the corsairs stay exactly the same until I had to pull them back before they run into cannons.

They're exactly the same speed.


I just tested it.

With a corsair moving straight at full speed, no commands being given to it, and a Scourge chasing it, the Scourge will catch up VERY VERY VERY slowly.


scourge is faster unless corsair flies diagonal. Trust me.
meow
Mobius
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1268 Posts
July 07 2009 00:36 GMT
#59
On July 07 2009 09:12 Probe. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2009 09:04 APurpleCow wrote:
On July 07 2009 08:48 koreasilver wrote:
On July 07 2009 08:34 APurpleCow wrote:
On July 07 2009 07:30 koreasilver wrote:
Isn't it just better to spend money on mutas as mutas can not only snipe high templars, but are also better for use in buying time by harassing their base and forcing them to make cannons in their minlines, forcing the protoss to make archons, etc.

On July 07 2009 05:23 Nevuk wrote:
Scourge are definitely faster than sairs.

They're the same speed.


You sure about that?

I've seen a scourge catch up and kill a corsair that was running away from it many times. In my experience scourge are VERY slightly faster than Corsair.

I use queens sometimes against Sair/DT, Sair/Reavers, and 2 port Wraith for Ensnare. They're always pretty awesome.

Yes, I am very sure about it as I have witnessed my scourge chase corsairs over the entire length of Destination with the distance between my scourge and the corsairs stay exactly the same until I had to pull them back before they run into cannons.

They're exactly the same speed.


I just tested it.

With a corsair moving straight at full speed, no commands being given to it, and a Scourge chasing it, the Scourge will catch up VERY VERY VERY slowly.


scourge is faster unless corsair flies diagonal. Trust me.

this
Entusman #51
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
July 07 2009 00:37 GMT
#60
surprised ensnare is not used more really. i mean surely the slowing down of attack/speed is worth the cost. plus good against sairs, and sneaky parasites of units in base can give you constant eyes on whats going on
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