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XXehh
Canada122 Posts
Depending on upgrades when do lings > zeals? if ever? eg. speed lings > non-speed zeals - can pick zeals off Do even upgrades (2 attack for p and 2 carapace for z) mean lings>zeal? or is it dependent on positioning in that case? I know this is kinda general, but any advice would be nice for the whole lings vs zeals topic. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
Speed lings obviously have the advantage over small groups of slow lots since they have the ability to mass up and surround. | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On July 03 2009 01:24 fusionsdf wrote: Late game when lings have speed + adrenal they are far more efficient than zealots. If zealots have one more attack upgrade than zerglings have armor, they can 2hit instead of 3 hit lings. Speed lings obviously have the advantage over small groups of slow lots since they have the ability to mass up and surround. pretty much says it all before attack speed upgrade its all about the attack upgrade for toss and the armor for zerg. zergs need to have that +1 armor other wise your lings will melt 33% faster. 33% extra time also means more hits, more damage and is very big when comibing it with attack speed upgrade. also if you plauge zelots zerglings tear through shields like a hot knife through butter. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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DownMaxX
Canada1311 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On July 03 2009 01:30 DownMaxX wrote: IMO they generally don't. That's why zealots are always used so heavily in PvZ until the zerg gets lurkers out, which are their biggest counter to zealots. When you have speed and crack upgraded and the numbers to back it up, sure they will rip through zealots just like any other ground unit, but I still wouldn't call them a counter. It all comes down to numbers, micro, positioning, upgrades and flanking from both players. cracklings are definitely a counter to zealots, money for money, build time for build time, they tear through zealots like you wouldnt believe. a pair of cracklings do more dps than any single unit in the game outside of nuke. This is why crackling doom drops raze bases so damn fast. The reason you dont see players just going mass cracklings is because of archons, reavers and storm which pretty much every protoss will have by that point. If some protoss is dumb enough to go pure zealot late game feel free to counter with mass cracklings :D In fact, before bisu, the crackling>zealot imbalance was most often cited as being the reason for 'pvz imbalance' | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On July 03 2009 01:30 Nevuk wrote: It's also the ratio - 4 zerglings for 1 zealot on open ground with proper micro. ratio isnt set in stone, if i recall 6 zerglings vs 2 zelots with no upgrades is more about micro to get into position. cause 6 lings get a good surround on 1 zelot. | ||
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o3.power91
Bahrain5288 Posts
Some factors to put into consideration: - Ratio (3 lings > 1 zealot; 2 lings < 1 zealot; etc [in most situations early game]) - Micro (this can change the outcome of a lingzeal battle completely; the zerg will want to flank while the protoss will try to avoid that; ling speed is useful) - Terrain (Flanks are easier to do in an open space; zealots have the advantage in tight spaces as they have to face less lings at a time) - Upgrades (equal protoss attack with zerg carapace = zeal kills ling in 3 hits; +1 protoss attack advantage = zeal kills ling in 2 hits; adrenaline of course is really useful) | ||
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Agro_Z
United States138 Posts
After Adrenal upgrade, you only need 3 lings. The best position is always a surround. For example, if protoss has his zeals in a ball, you need less lings to take out his zealots because the zealots trapped in the middle can't attack, vs a toss with his zealots spread out in a ling, you need lots more lings. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
- proper numbers - surround - the same armor and melee as he has you will pwn | ||
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XXehh
Canada122 Posts
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Aqo[il]
Israel183 Posts
if zea are leading with attack over Z armor by at least 1 then 4ling=1zea when adrenal is up 2.5ling=1zea that's all you need to know, micro doesn't really matter, just don't send your units in a line. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
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FaTe)SoL
Canada110 Posts
XD | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
- With simple micro, early game 3 zerglings > 1 zealot - With Zling speed, even if you are outnumbered you can surround and pick off zealots that are farther from the group then run away with little to no casualties. - 3-3 cracklings rape zealots lategame without archon/goon/ht support | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On July 03 2009 07:46 EchOne wrote: Speed, surround, carapace, adrenal. Once you have adrenal, pump those buggers out like M4 Shermans and they will destroy everything in 2009. And yeah a ssomeone said earlier they do the most DPS in the game which is annoying since like 8 can tear down a base in minutes T_T | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
But then again archons with a +3 1-hit lings regardless of the lings armor and dt's with a +1 1-hit drones with a +1 regardless of armor. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
On July 03 2009 01:28 StorZerg wrote: pretty much says it all before attack speed upgrade its all about the attack upgrade for toss and the armor for zerg. zergs need to have that +1 armor other wise your lings will melt 33% faster. 33% extra time also means more hits, more damage and is very big when comibing it with attack speed upgrade. also if you plauge zelots zerglings tear through shields like a hot knife through butter. 50%. 6 hits = 3 dead lings vs 2 dead lings. 50% more dead. 50% faster. But beyond that, numbers.. Zealots rock in chokes or when they effectively form their own chokes because there are so many of them.. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On July 03 2009 09:28 arb wrote: And yeah a ssomeone said earlier they do the most DPS in the game which is annoying since like 8 can tear down a base in minutes T_T what | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I'm betting that 8 cracklings can tear down a base in minutes if nothing stops them. Lings vs. Zealots is always dependent on positioning. Since the common build nowadays is the 5 Hatch Hydras into Mutas, you won't see lings at all during the midgame. Even in the early late game they're not the best because you're still 1 armor upgrade down against the Protoss's attack. Unless you're EffOrt of course, then you go mutaling and pwn. But to go lings midgame, you need the carapace upgrade. Zerglings then do fairly well against Zealots, and they pwn more after you get crack. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~edfu/starcraft/Unit stats.jpg +3 Cracklings inflict 1.33 damage per frame. According someone in the to [Q] DPS archive? thread, there are 24 frames per second. A +3 Crackling will inflict 31.92 damage per second, or 1915.2 damage per minute. 8 of them will inflict 15321.6 damage per minute. A Nexus has 750 hitpoints and 750 shields. 8 +3 Cracklings can raze 10 Nexuses in 1 minute. EDIT: A crackling attacking at 4 times per second seems pretty fucking insane. I'm definitely not sure that's true since it's just based on some speculation in two threads. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=71243 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=28699 Oh also I didn't account for building armor. But yeah, +3 cracklings inflict mad crazy damage and will kill anything before you know it. | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On July 03 2009 11:31 EchOne wrote: According to: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~edfu/starcraft/Unit stats.jpg +3 Cracklings inflict 1.33 damage per frame. According someone in the to [Q] DPS archive? thread, there are 24 frames per second. A +3 Crackling will inflict 31.92 damage per second, or 1915.2 damage per minute. 8 of them will inflict 15321.6 damage per minute. A Nexus has 750 hitpoints and 750 shields. 8 +3 Cracklings can raze 10 Nexuses in 1 minute. EDIT: A crackling attacking at 4 times per second seems pretty fucking insane. I'm definitely not sure that's true since it's just based on some speculation in two threads. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=71243 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=28699 Oh also I didn't account for building armor. But yeah, +3 cracklings inflict mad crazy damage and will kill anything before you know it. I dunno cracklings attack ridiculously fast. If it's not 4 times a second then 3 times a second is easily plausible. A drop of 16 cracklings left in a protoss main unhindered renders it to shreds in roughly 2 minutes. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On July 03 2009 10:42 Mystlord wrote: I'm betting that 8 cracklings can tear down a base in minutes if nothing stops them. orly? I thought he meant take out a base as in an expo(nexus and a pylon or two), in which would take place in seconds. I thought he had a typo  | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
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sythax
Scotland57 Posts
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
1 ling = 3 zealots | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On July 03 2009 21:59 sythax wrote: what about 1 crackling, 3, 3 versus 1 slowlot, 0 0 ? I have a feeling 2 3-3 cracklings can beat 1slowlot 0-0. I don't think 1 is quite enough. Cracklings are really good though late game vs zeals. And don't even get me started on cracklings with defiler. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On July 03 2009 07:48 FaTe)SoL wrote: 1 ling < 1 zealot in all cases XD not in all cases. 1 crackling > 1 Plague'd Zealot haha | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
On July 04 2009 05:01 Nevuk wrote: I'm curious, how much does armor matter against lings? I've recently started to convert into more +1 armor as opposed to +1 attack builds due to the prevalence of mass hydras and early +1 carapace. +1 attack is way better than +1 armor. Armor is only 50% as good for zealots since they have shields too. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On July 04 2009 05:01 Nevuk wrote: I'm curious, how much does armor matter against lings? I've recently started to convert into more +1 armor as opposed to +1 attack builds due to the prevalence of mass hydras and early +1 carapace. If Z does the build right he wont have +1 carapace that early since he will get +1 range attack with his first evolution chamber. On July 04 2009 06:16 CharlieMurphy wrote: in the sc booklet it says that zerglings are the counter for archons lol wtf ^^ | ||
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Probe.
United States877 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On July 04 2009 06:16 CharlieMurphy wrote: in the sc booklet it says that zerglings are the counter for archons lol At first i was like lolwat, but then... In situations where there are small amounts of archons in wide open spaces with good ling surround micro this is true. archons cost 100 minerals/300 gas. 400 minerals worth of lings would tear down an archon. So... lings do counter archons, but archons with a composition of other units in a mass counter lings. lings counter every protoss ground unit cost wise. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On July 04 2009 08:34 stroggos wrote: At first i was like lolwat, but then... In situations where there are small amounts of archons in wide open spaces with good ling surround micro this is true. archons cost 100 minerals/300 gas. 400 minerals worth of lings would tear down an archon. So... lings do counter archons, but archons with a composition of other units in a mass counter lings. lings counter every protoss ground unit cost wise. That's why you use zealots as shields ^^ | ||
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