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[Translation] SPOILER: Jaedong vs. Bisu

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
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StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 03:40:35
June 09 2009 03:33 GMT
#1
Translated from http://www.fomos.kr/gnuboard4/bbs/board.php?bo_table=free&wr_id=818707.

This was such a baller article I couldn't help but share it. And behold -- it's the same author who wrote the "History of Terran vs. Zerg" that I translated a while back!

So Bisu uses a probe scout to check the Spire timing and gets a good start.

Then Jaedong cancels the Spire.

Mistake? Fake? Mind games?

A mistake no doubt. If Jaedong really canceled on purpose, why? There's nothing to be gained by canceling the Spire.

This case is completely different from when Boxer used to cancel his Starport to put down an extra Factory. Starting off low-econ, to build a 200/100 Factory one needs to cancel something like a Starport. However, a rich 3-base Zerg canceling a long-build time Spire to put down a 100/50 Hydra den is a massive loss.

Hydra den + Spire are cards the Zerg can put forth in mind games. The actual main characters of this ploy being the unidentified larvae. Thus, the more buildings, the more cards you have, the better.

Canceling the Spire yields no benefit to Jaedong. That it wasn't on purpose is highly likely, and even if it was, he would have thought 'Why the hell did I just do that?' and regretted his decision.

Anyway, as a result, Bisu takes 4 overlords.

Losing many overlords leads invariably to big trouble. It is conceivable to have made 3 extra overlords for safety, but having 4 extra overlords is mineral waste.

At a time when he should have massed drones and hydras, he is supply stuck and unable to take advantage of the explosive macro-style of 5 hatch hydra.

Then he scouts with his scourge... and sees, some dragoons?

The only build that fits making more than a couple dragoons is the goon+templar build. There's really only two choices -- either use mass goons or a few goons. That's because mixing range-unupgraded goons with speedlots just kills the mobility of the speedlots.

The proper response to goon-temp? Muta-hydra.

The build that came out early 2008, the goon-temp build. Afterwards, Much used it to great success. Recently, Jangbi has been reviving it.

If I recall correctly, this build came out first in Arena MSL Jaedong vs. Bisu, on Othello. As soon as it was introduced, it was destroyed, as coincidentally Jaedong happened to use fast mutas which completely eat up the goon-temp build.

It's hard to defend temps with fewer than a control group of goons. Goons do explosive damage and tickle mutalisks. After picking off temps, pure goon is supper time for hydraling. As a result, Much mixed in Dark Archons to counter, but the build never recovered from its weakness against sudden counter mutas.

Bisu knows this. After scouting with Corsairs, he realizes something is up. In particular, he thinks, 'Even if it's not sudden mutas and mass hydras, his army is so puny I can defend without temps', and retreats his temps behind his cannon line. Consequently, he prevents muta sniping and templar terror. He adds an expo.

This moment, the game is already in favor of toss 7:3. No, toss won. Neo sauron - a hydra-based build - relies on superior econ. The moment the econ superiority is lost, there is no way to block the Protoss han-bang. Even goonlot without temps would roll. That is the hydralisks' demise.

The last possible resort card are Lurkers. Just survive with mass Lurkers. Resist and secure land, tech to Hive and doom drop the Protoss main with cracklings and win with guerilla war tactics.

But Bisu has the upper hand. He leisurely secured 5 and 6. He deals with the Lurker contain endlessly, but he is at a situation where even failing to deal with the contain is not enough to disadvantage him. Then he attempts a break out.

Even had this break out not worked, Jaedong poured too much gas into defending 12 o'clock with Lurkers. About 2 control groups? Thus, not attaining the goal of 'breaking through 12 o'clock' was okay because 'reducing Jaedong's army' was also a worthy goal.

Nonetheless, the fury of Bisu breaks through 12 o'clock and the game ends there.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
June 09 2009 03:36 GMT
#2
Thanks, grabbing cocoa and cookie to read : ]
Moderator<:3-/-<
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
June 09 2009 03:43 GMT
#3
Hey Stryker! What are you doing nowadays? I hope Starcraft at MIT can continue without you.
starleague.mit.edu
LaXerCannon
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada558 Posts
June 09 2009 03:45 GMT
#4
Great read d(- -d)
Just keep swimming
Exteray
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1094 Posts
June 09 2009 04:07 GMT
#5
Very informative post!
Sigrun
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1654 Posts
June 09 2009 04:13 GMT
#6
Thanks a lot!
Graphics
mucker
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States1120 Posts
June 09 2009 04:21 GMT
#7
Thanks!

what's han-bang?
It's supposed to be automatic but actually you have to press this button.
251
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1401 Posts
June 09 2009 04:28 GMT
#8
that was great, pretty much near perfect analysis of the match. Here's hoping we see better from Jaedong against Bisu in the future
"If you can chill..........then chill."
[AhunGrY]MelOn
Profile Joined November 2008
United States357 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 04:31:12
June 09 2009 04:28 GMT
#9
han-bang in korean means something like "one blow"
the basic theory in pvz is that p eventually masses up a huge ball of stuff that can own everything that the zerg has, once it gets big enough, (called the han bang army) while z tries to keep the size of that han bang army down / damage protoss economy using the zerg's superior production (edit: and mobility)
i think that's how koreans think of the matchup (same applies to tvp, where t has the han bang army)
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66160 Posts
June 09 2009 04:29 GMT
#10
On June 09 2009 13:21 mucker wrote:
Thanks!

what's han-bang?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93316
POGGERS
AzureEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1360 Posts
June 09 2009 04:34 GMT
#11
Very good read!!

That spire cancel was crucial!!

But do you think he would have been able to take down HT's and engage that goon army if he got those mutas out earlier and saved those overlords?
Terrans who whine: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=107788
jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
June 09 2009 04:42 GMT
#12
makes me think of a hidden spires : x
B1nary
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada1267 Posts
June 09 2009 05:05 GMT
#13
Thanks for the translation! I hope JD doesn't fuck up next time ^^
aeonshifter
Profile Joined April 2009
United States123 Posts
June 09 2009 05:10 GMT
#14
Thanks for this.

I was really puzzled by this when I watched the game live.
Marine50
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia1764 Posts
June 09 2009 05:13 GMT
#15
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
IRIS FIGHTING!!!
[AhunGrY]MelOn
Profile Joined November 2008
United States357 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 05:28:05
June 09 2009 05:24 GMT
#16
On June 09 2009 13:29 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2009 13:21 mucker wrote:
Thanks!

what's han-bang?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93316

actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off
like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used
edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:

a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort

i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6175 Posts
June 09 2009 05:27 GMT
#17
why not just ask jaedong himself.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
June 09 2009 05:31 GMT
#18
On June 09 2009 14:24 [AhunGrY]MelOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2009 13:29 konadora wrote:
On June 09 2009 13:21 mucker wrote:
Thanks!

what's han-bang?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93316

actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off
like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used
edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:

a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort

i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something

Hoejja in the game he won vs Free referred to Free's first standard midgame army as a hanbang. So they might be using different definitions.
Jaedong
iloveHieu
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1919 Posts
June 09 2009 05:44 GMT
#19
On June 09 2009 14:27 Piste wrote:
why not just ask jaedong himself.


I think it's a sensitive issue! who would ask that and there's no guarantee Jaedong will respond honestly or even respond at all..

yo yo sweet analysis, me want moreeee
Xellos <3
SilentNoodle
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia290 Posts
June 09 2009 05:51 GMT
#20
nice read, thanks
ZenDeX
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Philippines2916 Posts
June 09 2009 06:24 GMT
#21
I knew Jaedong will lose the moment I saw the Spire got cancelled.

Thanks for the translation and props to the guy who makes these.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
June 09 2009 06:53 GMT
#22
Very insightful translation. Jaedong "DOH!"
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
June 09 2009 07:06 GMT
#23
I didn't even notice the spire getting cancelled...man i fail.
Jaedong :3
lordmordor
Profile Joined February 2009
United States209 Posts
June 09 2009 07:11 GMT
#24
I consider this basically the Jaedong equivilent of Bisu's zealot problem during the GOM special match.
LuDwig-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Italy1143 Posts
June 09 2009 07:16 GMT
#25
why when i play i never make so depth consideration?T.T
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120015&currentpage=98<--Search the HotBid's Post
pRo9aMeR
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
595 Posts
June 09 2009 07:47 GMT
#26
excellent read! really loved the translation...감사합니다
In training...let's play, gg! d^..^b
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
June 09 2009 07:53 GMT
#27
On June 09 2009 13:34 AzureEye wrote:
Very good read!!

That spire cancel was crucial!!

But do you think he would have been able to take down HT's and engage that goon army if he got those mutas out earlier and saved those overlords?


Yea, seems like from what the author wrote, that's the idea of muta hydra response to goon temp.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 08:09:02
June 09 2009 08:08 GMT
#28
What game is this from? youtube link plz?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Itachii
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Poland12466 Posts
June 09 2009 08:11 GMT
#29
On June 09 2009 17:08 CharlieMurphy wrote:
What game is this from? youtube link plz?


Don't tell me you didn't watch SKT vs Oz ~
La parole nous a été donnée pour déguiser notre pensée
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
June 09 2009 08:21 GMT
#30
Nice, thanks for translating.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Deleted User 37864
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
780 Posts
June 09 2009 08:32 GMT
#31
On June 09 2009 14:13 Marine50 wrote:
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is just as good as Bisu.

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.

Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6175 Posts
June 09 2009 08:43 GMT
#32
On June 09 2009 14:13 Marine50 wrote:
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is just as good as Bisu.

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.


HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
June 09 2009 08:57 GMT
#33
김연우 is a real famous forum member, used to post baller analysis on pgr
returns upon momentous occasions.
scrubtastic
Profile Joined May 2009
1166 Posts
June 09 2009 09:01 GMT
#34
thanks for the translation - nice to see analysis like this
Vex
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Ireland454 Posts
June 09 2009 09:11 GMT
#35
hannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn baaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggggggg
"Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like.
GoSu
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Korea (South)1773 Posts
June 09 2009 09:11 GMT
#36
Great reading ~
Bisu is really 똑똑해요 !
It means, "intelligent".
Really well played by Him against 이제동 뭉 and against all players that he played.
#1 olleh KT 팬 http://sports.kt.com/ | #1 김택용 선수 팬 | 좋은 선수: 송병구, 이제동, 도제욱, 정명훈, 이성은 | KeSPA 한국 e-Sports 협회
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 09 2009 09:38 GMT
#37
Thank you soooo much. I was so fucking sick of all the annoying Jaedong fanboys saying he did it on purpose...that he's too good to make a mistake like that...

Sorry kids. I'm as much of a Jaedong fan as you are, but face it: Jaedong fucked up, and took a loss for it. Oh...and you also don't understand the fucking game.


BTW
Han Bang doesn't necessarily have to be all-in-ish. It can just refer to a sudden and powerful timing attack that is intended to deal a large amount of damage to the opponent. It gets used that way by Korea commentators quite often, in fact. If it ever had an "all-in" or desperate connotation, it's been shed by now.
Hello
bias-
Profile Joined October 2004
United States410 Posts
June 09 2009 10:19 GMT
#38
On June 09 2009 14:13 Marine50 wrote:
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.


I'm sorry but I have to dispute this as blatant bias. At least qualify your comment as biased - something, anything.

Bisu made the mistake of not holding-position his zealots game 5 in the GOM special match. In game 5 of this arguably more-important series, Jaedong (99% sure until an interview) canceled his spire in a trigger-happy fluster of trying to fake out his opponent. This is what I'm guessing probably happened because if you'll remember the first probe was microed around very well by Bisu to scout but then died eventually - a second was sent out around the other way as well~

Whether or not Jaedong did it intentionally, both players have made fundamental mistakes in important games - yet obviously both have shown very consistent performance versus all the best players over time... Claiming one is "so much better" than the other seems.. unfair.

Also. Great translation, thanks.
For serious minds, a bias recognized is a bias sterilized.
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 09 2009 10:29 GMT
#39
nice read, bisu is SUCHHHH a cute monster! :3
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 09 2009 10:35 GMT
#40
On June 09 2009 19:19 bias- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2009 14:13 Marine50 wrote:
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.


I'm sorry but I have to dispute this as blatant bias. At least qualify your comment as biased - something, anything.

Bisu made the mistake of not holding-position his zealots game 5 in the GOM special match. In game 5 of this arguably more-important series, Jaedong (99% sure until an interview) canceled his spire in a trigger-happy fluster of trying to fake out his opponent. This is what I'm guessing probably happened because if you'll remember the first probe was microed around very well by Bisu to scout but then died eventually - a second was sent out around the other way as well~

Whether or not Jaedong did it intentionally, both players have made fundamental mistakes in important games - yet obviously both have shown very consistent performance versus all the best players over time... Claiming one is "so much better" than the other seems.. unfair.

Also. Great translation, thanks.

Bisu did hold position his lurkers. It was the zealots' positioning that did him in. There was somehow still space enough to the side of one of the zealots (the right one, if memory serves correctly) that allowed the lings to pass through.

We all know how retarded SC's terrain system can be...Bisu just got gayed to the point he lost a game as a result.

As for Jaedong, don't think so little of his game sense that he would simply ignore the sair timing he knows is coming for a spire fake that would have worked two years ago. Today it is standard to get a spire and den at the same time, even if you're not going mutas. Scourge are essential for deflecting sairs.
Hello
fearus
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
China2164 Posts
June 09 2009 11:01 GMT
#41
On June 09 2009 14:13 Marine50 wrote:
Cheers man.

Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu

I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.


lolz

plz die
bisu fanboy
Deleted User 37864
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
780 Posts
June 09 2009 11:26 GMT
#42
On June 09 2009 19:35 PH wrote:
Bisu did hold position his lurkers. It was the zealots' positioning that did him in. There was somehow still space enough to the side of one of the zealots (the right one, if memory serves correctly) that allowed the lings to pass through.

We all know how retarded SC's terrain system can be...Bisu just got gayed to the point he lost a game as a result.

As for Jaedong, don't think so little of his game sense that he would simply ignore the sair timing he knows is coming for a spire fake that would have worked two years ago. Today it is standard to get a spire and den at the same time, even if you're not going mutas. Scourge are essential for deflecting sairs.


wut
yrag89
Profile Joined July 2008
Malaysia315 Posts
June 09 2009 11:26 GMT
#43
Anyone can give me the time he cancel his spire? I can't find it.
secondly morrow is a korean pro who plays terran what the hell did you expect lol - charlie420247
Kaervek56
Profile Joined August 2008
Australia273 Posts
June 09 2009 11:36 GMT
#44
On June 09 2009 20:26 yrag89 wrote:
Anyone can give me the time he cancel his spire? I can't find it.

6:30
You don't actually get a shot of the spire being cancelled, but the observer has the spire selected and it turns back into a drone.
Endrek
foeffa
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Belgium2115 Posts
June 09 2009 11:54 GMT
#45
Interesting analysis. tx for translating this
觀過斯知仁矣.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
June 09 2009 12:02 GMT
#46
Now Jaedong and Bisu are even with matches lost due really bad mistake. :p
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
June 09 2009 12:29 GMT
#47
Thnx for the translation stryker.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also, i read you blog, yeah your ZvT is nice we've played sometimes on iccup;) i'd like to play some more games if you want to practice!
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Shadrik
Profile Joined October 2007
45 Posts
June 09 2009 12:37 GMT
#48
Thanks for the translation!
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
June 09 2009 13:06 GMT
#49
Nice nice read.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2585 Posts
June 09 2009 13:07 GMT
#50
Thanks for sharing and translating this awesome article, StRyKeR. As i was a little confused and unclear about the match itself and its outcomes : )
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4727 Posts
June 09 2009 18:16 GMT
#51
Thank you so much for sharing this. I enjoy these in depth analysis of games more than anything else.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
hellhawk123
Profile Joined December 2007
United States84 Posts
June 09 2009 18:27 GMT
#52
hella good read
[xyn]
rushz0rz
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Canada5300 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 19:18:55
June 09 2009 19:18 GMT
#53
YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!
IntoTheRainBOw fan~
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 19:25:19
June 09 2009 19:25 GMT
#54
On June 09 2009 14:24 [AhunGrY]MelOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2009 13:29 konadora wrote:
On June 09 2009 13:21 mucker wrote:
Thanks!

what's han-bang?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93316

actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off
like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used
edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:

a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort

i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something

If I remember correctly, the general definition of han-bang is actually any large attack, not necessarily related to a desperate last ditch effort.

Anyways, it was such a shame that this happened...
It is like a reverse version of Game 5 in GOM Finals.
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
June 09 2009 19:49 GMT
#55
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote:
YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!

It was definitely all the cancellation mistake but its still very fun to see Bisu own JD
Liquid | SKT
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
June 09 2009 19:54 GMT
#56
you guys are good if you all noticed that.

I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.

Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.

BTW.
The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
June 09 2009 19:58 GMT
#57
On June 10 2009 04:54 niteReloaded wrote:
you guys are good if you all noticed that.

I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.

Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.

BTW.
The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.

2 extra hatcheries? You talk about the 4th and 5th ones, which are included in the 3hatch spire 5 hatch hydra build? Or did JD have 7 hatches at that point and i somehow missed it?
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
HooHa!
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States688 Posts
June 09 2009 20:01 GMT
#58
Yeah Jaedong had to play catchup the entire time. In fact he never really could get a solid attack in. It was brutal to watch.

Bisu is just so on top of everything that if you make a mistake he will abuse it to no end. He could expand safely and push out with ease.


I hope flash secures the next few matches and especially if they are against these guys JUST so we can get out of this pvz stuff. I want flash back on top.
Hoo Ra!
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 20:42:32
June 09 2009 20:41 GMT
#59
On June 10 2009 04:54 niteReloaded wrote:
you guys are good if you all noticed that.

I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.

Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.

BTW.
The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.


I think the initial author failed to mention that Jaedong rebuilt the spire IMMEDIATELY after he canceled it (literally one or two seconds afterwards, judging from how far the spire was building when it was later clicked). This point, in addition to the fact that 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra ALREADY includes the timing to add two extra hatches, makes your point hard to defend.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
iNfeRnaL *
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Germany1908 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-09 21:22:56
June 09 2009 21:22 GMT
#60
nice read, nice to see jaedong crumbling a bit too under pressure.
mistakes are human, even tho jd/bisu aren't really all that human, they still have some sparks of being human here and there.
stop comparing bisu/jaedong and saying who's better - they pretty much have 50-50% against each other and they are the 2 best players of our time, god damn it, just accept it theres 2 gods in broodwar and none of them needs to be "better".
no bo3 series or bo5 which ends 2-1/3-2 for either one does really show who's "better" just who played better in the particular day.
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
June 09 2009 21:26 GMT
#61
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage
Vrac
Profile Joined June 2009
Poland52 Posts
June 09 2009 21:35 GMT
#62
Thx for posting
pripple
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Finland1714 Posts
June 09 2009 21:37 GMT
#63
very nice analysis of the match, thanks for the translation
Jaedong! <> Team MVP <> Mouz.
aeonshifter
Profile Joined April 2009
United States123 Posts
June 09 2009 21:40 GMT
#64
On June 09 2009 20:36 Kaervek56 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2009 20:26 yrag89 wrote:
Anyone can give me the time he cancel his spire? I can't find it.

6:30
You don't actually get a shot of the spire being cancelled, but the observer has the spire selected and it turns back into a drone.


I actually missed this during the live stream, but I knew something was up when his building spire was only 100hp further along 2 minutes later.
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
June 10 2009 00:10 GMT
#65
Yeah I knew the second he canceled the spire it was over. Now they are pretty evenly matched in win/loss though
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 10 2009 00:14 GMT
#66
On June 10 2009 06:26 Racenilatr wrote:
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage

Really??

You never wondered why it took three goon shots to kill a marine? Or why goons suck against lings? haha.
Hello
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
June 10 2009 00:47 GMT
#67
Great analysis of the match. This just shows what a single misclick can do to the best Zerg player in a world.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42654 Posts
June 10 2009 01:08 GMT
#68
On June 10 2009 09:14 PH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2009 06:26 Racenilatr wrote:
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage

Really??

You never wondered why it took three goon shots to kill a marine? Or why goons suck against lings? haha.

Four shots to kill a rine, even when the goon is +3.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
June 10 2009 01:24 GMT
#69
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote:
YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!

this! hahaha. but seriously, the game went out for like 24 minutes or something and every minute of it was sooo thrilling. wow. i want another bisu vs jaedong, this time bo7. >_<
leomon
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada169 Posts
June 10 2009 02:57 GMT
#70
Great translation+read, thanks!

Imo the game was over as soon as that one sair had 4 overlord kills on it. Those two PERFECT storms on the mutas while they came to snipe the templars sealed the deal.

However, it was STILL a really good match, and I enjoyed it frmo start to finish
Radians
unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
June 10 2009 03:32 GMT
#71
wow good read.. thanks a bunch
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
Kentor *
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5784 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-10 03:55:26
June 10 2009 03:52 GMT
#72
On June 10 2009 06:26 Racenilatr wrote:
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage

wtfxxxxx lurn2sc please
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
June 10 2009 12:02 GMT
#73
nice little write up
Mumblee
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada256 Posts
June 10 2009 14:37 GMT
#74
Thanks for the translation. Great article, I didn't even notice the cancel.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
June 10 2009 19:02 GMT
#75
On June 10 2009 09:14 PH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2009 06:26 Racenilatr wrote:
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage

Really??

You never wondered why it took three goon shots to kill a marine? Or why goons suck against lings? haha.

you make fun on the other, while you don't even know it exactly
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
June 10 2009 21:04 GMT
#76
On June 10 2009 10:24 Raithed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote:
YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!

this! hahaha. but seriously, the game went out for like 24 minutes or something and every minute of it was sooo thrilling. wow. i want another bisu vs jaedong, this time bo7. >_<


Mh tbh I didnt find it that thrilling
I just had thoughts like "arg jaedongs playing so good, what a perfect angle for his hydras" and "woh very nice observer scouts...... but who cares its all not gonna matter theres no way whatsoever that bisu is gonna give this away"


Anyways the article confused me a bit, I once read the proper counter to goon temp was hydra ling, not hydra muta because muta have such a tough time sniping the templars when theres that many goons?



At least I get know why Jaedong went for lurkers even though they theoretically are a bad counter to goons.
beep boop
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
June 11 2009 13:10 GMT
#77
On June 11 2009 04:02 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2009 09:14 PH wrote:
On June 10 2009 06:26 Racenilatr wrote:
O wow thats pretty nice. I didn't know goons dealt explosive damage

Really??

You never wondered why it took three goon shots to kill a marine? Or why goons suck against lings? haha.

you make fun on the other, while you don't even know it exactly

thought the same thing
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
June 19 2009 05:12 GMT
#78
question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.

It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.
I will eat you alive
Ozarugold
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
2716 Posts
June 19 2009 05:42 GMT
#79
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote:
question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.

It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.

On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.

Shit happens.
this is my quote.
Kentor *
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5784 Posts
June 19 2009 06:12 GMT
#80
On June 19 2009 14:42 Ozarugold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote:
question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.

It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.

On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.

Shit happens.

Well the esc key is not next to the 1 key on the dt35.
Ozarugold
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
2716 Posts
June 19 2009 06:20 GMT
#81
On June 19 2009 15:12 Kentor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2009 14:42 Ozarugold wrote:
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote:
question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.

It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.

On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.

Shit happens.

Well the esc key is not next to the 1 key on the dt35.

Ah...true true...
this is my quote.
dhe95
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1213 Posts
June 22 2009 23:01 GMT
#82
He could've been reaching for F2, and somehow missed by a lot and pressed ESC.

Or he has multi-command and was reaching for the ~ key and pressed esc. (But why would you use multicommand on a spire?)

Maybe he needed help playing sc so he went to press F1
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
June 23 2009 01:53 GMT
#83
Maybe he hit it with his pinky while pressing another key with his ring or middle finger?
Jaedong
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
June 23 2009 02:15 GMT
#84
On June 10 2009 03:27 hellhawk123 wrote:
hella good read


Someone from Norcal. I hella support that.

Thanks for the translation. It's good to know, even if all it did was make me feel like I don't know how to PvZ.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
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