This was such a baller article I couldn't help but share it. And behold -- it's the same author who wrote the "History of Terran vs. Zerg" that I translated a while back!
So Bisu uses a probe scout to check the Spire timing and gets a good start.
Then Jaedong cancels the Spire.
Mistake? Fake? Mind games?
A mistake no doubt. If Jaedong really canceled on purpose, why? There's nothing to be gained by canceling the Spire.
This case is completely different from when Boxer used to cancel his Starport to put down an extra Factory. Starting off low-econ, to build a 200/100 Factory one needs to cancel something like a Starport. However, a rich 3-base Zerg canceling a long-build time Spire to put down a 100/50 Hydra den is a massive loss.
Hydra den + Spire are cards the Zerg can put forth in mind games. The actual main characters of this ploy being the unidentified larvae. Thus, the more buildings, the more cards you have, the better.
Canceling the Spire yields no benefit to Jaedong. That it wasn't on purpose is highly likely, and even if it was, he would have thought 'Why the hell did I just do that?' and regretted his decision.
Anyway, as a result, Bisu takes 4 overlords.
Losing many overlords leads invariably to big trouble. It is conceivable to have made 3 extra overlords for safety, but having 4 extra overlords is mineral waste.
At a time when he should have massed drones and hydras, he is supply stuck and unable to take advantage of the explosive macro-style of 5 hatch hydra.
Then he scouts with his scourge... and sees, some dragoons?
The only build that fits making more than a couple dragoons is the goon+templar build. There's really only two choices -- either use mass goons or a few goons. That's because mixing range-unupgraded goons with speedlots just kills the mobility of the speedlots.
The proper response to goon-temp? Muta-hydra.
The build that came out early 2008, the goon-temp build. Afterwards, Much used it to great success. Recently, Jangbi has been reviving it.
If I recall correctly, this build came out first in Arena MSL Jaedong vs. Bisu, on Othello. As soon as it was introduced, it was destroyed, as coincidentally Jaedong happened to use fast mutas which completely eat up the goon-temp build.
It's hard to defend temps with fewer than a control group of goons. Goons do explosive damage and tickle mutalisks. After picking off temps, pure goon is supper time for hydraling. As a result, Much mixed in Dark Archons to counter, but the build never recovered from its weakness against sudden counter mutas.
Bisu knows this. After scouting with Corsairs, he realizes something is up. In particular, he thinks, 'Even if it's not sudden mutas and mass hydras, his army is so puny I can defend without temps', and retreats his temps behind his cannon line. Consequently, he prevents muta sniping and templar terror. He adds an expo.
This moment, the game is already in favor of toss 7:3. No, toss won. Neo sauron - a hydra-based build - relies on superior econ. The moment the econ superiority is lost, there is no way to block the Protoss han-bang. Even goonlot without temps would roll. That is the hydralisks' demise.
The last possible resort card are Lurkers. Just survive with mass Lurkers. Resist and secure land, tech to Hive and doom drop the Protoss main with cracklings and win with guerilla war tactics.
But Bisu has the upper hand. He leisurely secured 5 and 6. He deals with the Lurker contain endlessly, but he is at a situation where even failing to deal with the contain is not enough to disadvantage him. Then he attempts a break out.
Even had this break out not worked, Jaedong poured too much gas into defending 12 o'clock with Lurkers. About 2 control groups? Thus, not attaining the goal of 'breaking through 12 o'clock' was okay because 'reducing Jaedong's army' was also a worthy goal.
Nonetheless, the fury of Bisu breaks through 12 o'clock and the game ends there.
han-bang in korean means something like "one blow" the basic theory in pvz is that p eventually masses up a huge ball of stuff that can own everything that the zerg has, once it gets big enough, (called the han bang army) while z tries to keep the size of that han bang army down / damage protoss economy using the zerg's superior production (edit: and mobility) i think that's how koreans think of the matchup (same applies to tvp, where t has the han bang army)
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:
a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort
i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something
actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:
a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort
i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something
Hoejja in the game he won vs Free referred to Free's first standard midgame army as a hanbang. So they might be using different definitions.
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is just as good as Bisu.
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is just as good as Bisu.
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
Thank you soooo much. I was so fucking sick of all the annoying Jaedong fanboys saying he did it on purpose...that he's too good to make a mistake like that...
Sorry kids. I'm as much of a Jaedong fan as you are, but face it: Jaedong fucked up, and took a loss for it. Oh...and you also don't understand the fucking game.
BTW Han Bang doesn't necessarily have to be all-in-ish. It can just refer to a sudden and powerful timing attack that is intended to deal a large amount of damage to the opponent. It gets used that way by Korea commentators quite often, in fact. If it ever had an "all-in" or desperate connotation, it's been shed by now.
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
I'm sorry but I have to dispute this as blatant bias. At least qualify your comment as biased - something, anything.
Bisu made the mistake of not holding-position his zealots game 5 in the GOM special match. In game 5 of this arguably more-important series, Jaedong (99% sure until an interview) canceled his spire in a trigger-happy fluster of trying to fake out his opponent. This is what I'm guessing probably happened because if you'll remember the first probe was microed around very well by Bisu to scout but then died eventually - a second was sent out around the other way as well~
Whether or not Jaedong did it intentionally, both players have made fundamental mistakes in important games - yet obviously both have shown very consistent performance versus all the best players over time... Claiming one is "so much better" than the other seems.. unfair.
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
I'm sorry but I have to dispute this as blatant bias. At least qualify your comment as biased - something, anything.
Bisu made the mistake of not holding-position his zealots game 5 in the GOM special match. In game 5 of this arguably more-important series, Jaedong (99% sure until an interview) canceled his spire in a trigger-happy fluster of trying to fake out his opponent. This is what I'm guessing probably happened because if you'll remember the first probe was microed around very well by Bisu to scout but then died eventually - a second was sent out around the other way as well~
Whether or not Jaedong did it intentionally, both players have made fundamental mistakes in important games - yet obviously both have shown very consistent performance versus all the best players over time... Claiming one is "so much better" than the other seems.. unfair.
Also. Great translation, thanks.
Bisu did hold position his lurkers. It was the zealots' positioning that did him in. There was somehow still space enough to the side of one of the zealots (the right one, if memory serves correctly) that allowed the lings to pass through.
We all know how retarded SC's terrain system can be...Bisu just got gayed to the point he lost a game as a result.
As for Jaedong, don't think so little of his game sense that he would simply ignore the sair timing he knows is coming for a spire fake that would have worked two years ago. Today it is standard to get a spire and den at the same time, even if you're not going mutas. Scourge are essential for deflecting sairs.
Such a shame that this happened. Jaedong is so much better than bisu
I just don't understand how he could have accidentally canceled it. 'Esc' key is so out of the way on the keyboard and its hard to believe he would have accidentally clicked on the cancel button.
On June 09 2009 19:35 PH wrote: Bisu did hold position his lurkers. It was the zealots' positioning that did him in. There was somehow still space enough to the side of one of the zealots (the right one, if memory serves correctly) that allowed the lings to pass through.
We all know how retarded SC's terrain system can be...Bisu just got gayed to the point he lost a game as a result.
As for Jaedong, don't think so little of his game sense that he would simply ignore the sair timing he knows is coming for a spire fake that would have worked two years ago. Today it is standard to get a spire and den at the same time, even if you're not going mutas. Scourge are essential for deflecting sairs.
actually, i think the description on that page is slightly off like in this post, bisu was wayyyyyy ahead, yet the word han-bang is still used edit: i think what you were thinking of in that description is something from a situation like:
a zerg does a lot of damage to p economy (maybe kind of late into the game) but still lets p macro up a huge army (the han-bang army i described in my previous post), so that p still has a chance to win by destroying shit with the army in a last effort
i dont think a timed attack is associated with the word han-bang, but i might be forgetting something
If I remember correctly, the general definition of han-bang is actually any large attack, not necessarily related to a desperate last ditch effort.
Anyways, it was such a shame that this happened... It is like a reverse version of Game 5 in GOM Finals.
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote: YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!
It was definitely all the cancellation mistake but its still very fun to see Bisu own JD
I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.
Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.
BTW. The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.
On June 10 2009 04:54 niteReloaded wrote: you guys are good if you all noticed that.
I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.
Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.
BTW. The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.
2 extra hatcheries? You talk about the 4th and 5th ones, which are included in the 3hatch spire 5 hatch hydra build? Or did JD have 7 hatches at that point and i somehow missed it?
Yeah Jaedong had to play catchup the entire time. In fact he never really could get a solid attack in. It was brutal to watch.
Bisu is just so on top of everything that if you make a mistake he will abuse it to no end. He could expand safely and push out with ease.
I hope flash secures the next few matches and especially if they are against these guys JUST so we can get out of this pvz stuff. I want flash back on top.
On June 10 2009 04:54 niteReloaded wrote: you guys are good if you all noticed that.
I think I watched that VOD more carefully than the others, and I didn' pick that up.
Now I see why Jaedong lost so many overlords.
BTW. The OP says that he canceled the spire to make only hydra den. It overlooks the fact that 200 minerals from spire helped fund the 2 extra hatcheries.
I think the initial author failed to mention that Jaedong rebuilt the spire IMMEDIATELY after he canceled it (literally one or two seconds afterwards, judging from how far the spire was building when it was later clicked). This point, in addition to the fact that 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra ALREADY includes the timing to add two extra hatches, makes your point hard to defend.
nice read, nice to see jaedong crumbling a bit too under pressure. mistakes are human, even tho jd/bisu aren't really all that human, they still have some sparks of being human here and there. stop comparing bisu/jaedong and saying who's better - they pretty much have 50-50% against each other and they are the 2 best players of our time, god damn it, just accept it theres 2 gods in broodwar and none of them needs to be "better". no bo3 series or bo5 which ends 2-1/3-2 for either one does really show who's "better" just who played better in the particular day.
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote: YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!
this! hahaha. but seriously, the game went out for like 24 minutes or something and every minute of it was sooo thrilling. wow. i want another bisu vs jaedong, this time bo7. >_<
Imo the game was over as soon as that one sair had 4 overlord kills on it. Those two PERFECT storms on the mutas while they came to snipe the templars sealed the deal.
However, it was STILL a really good match, and I enjoyed it frmo start to finish
On June 10 2009 04:18 rushz0rz wrote: YES. Bisu is the best. I LOVED watching Jaedong get owned. You can blame it on a cancellation mistake but you're in denial!
this! hahaha. but seriously, the game went out for like 24 minutes or something and every minute of it was sooo thrilling. wow. i want another bisu vs jaedong, this time bo7. >_<
Mh tbh I didnt find it that thrilling I just had thoughts like "arg jaedongs playing so good, what a perfect angle for his hydras" and "woh very nice observer scouts...... but who cares its all not gonna matter theres no way whatsoever that bisu is gonna give this away"
Anyways the article confused me a bit, I once read the proper counter to goon temp was hydra ling, not hydra muta because muta have such a tough time sniping the templars when theres that many goons?
At least I get know why Jaedong went for lurkers even though they theoretically are a bad counter to goons.
question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.
It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote: question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.
It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.
On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote: question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.
It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.
On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.
Shit happens.
Well the esc key is not next to the 1 key on the dt35.
On June 19 2009 14:12 FieryBalrog wrote: question: how on earth do you accidentally cancel a spire? The "esc" key is totally out of the way, and you will basically never have the spire selected.
It seems more to me that Jaedong cancelled it intentionally, then immediately regretted it.
On my keyboard the esc key is really close to the 1 key.
Shit happens.
Well the esc key is not next to the 1 key on the dt35.
EPT
