I know what you're thinking. "Chef, this is the wrong forum." I'm not talking about that kind of stove though. I'm talking about The Stove that inspires dreams, that humiliates opponents, and that is a wicked fun StarCraft build.
In its simplest form the only requirements of The Stove are a fast scout, DTs following, and an Arbiter after the DTs. "But Chef," you say, "that's retarded and contradictory." Yes my friend, it is. But I have never lost with The Stove. A well-practiced bad build can always win against players who have no practice against it.
The following is my philosophy on how to effectively use The Stove. I will share all my secrets. You will become wise.
The Build
The first step to this build is selecting Protoss as your race at the start screen. Without doing this, there is no way to perform The Stove, no matter how good you are. I mean it. Choose Protoss, or the rest of this guide is useless. Sometimes choosing Random works, admittedly, but only about a third of the time.
Where's mantoss? T.T
The second step is to have confidence. You need to believe The Stove will work. Because it always works. It's the best build in the game. If you chose Protoss, instead of just doing this build if you Randomed Protoss, you're already ahead. It's like you've killed you enemy's first two starting peons. Choosing Protoss means you believe in this build, and you were planning to do it before the game started. You should also warn your opponent you're going to do the best build you know, preferably in the game lobby, but just after the game has started usually yields similar results. Make sure he's on guard and playing really hard. Otherwise you won't be motivated to try hard yourself.
Even if you're a pussy, pretend you're a lion
The third step is to build buildings. Depending on the map, and the matchup, this can alter slightly, but the gist is this:
8pylon 10gate 11gas 13core
If you're playing on a map without a ramp, with a wide choke, you'll want to get creative and place your buildings in such a way that you can more easily block a scout. It is vital that your opponent not figure out what you're doing, but if they accidentally do, pretend like you don't care. You're the boss and no matter what they do, they're gonna lose.
Between the gateway and the core, an SCV will be able to fit thru. You can block this with a probe.
Ideally, you should place the cybercore below the gateway, instead of above as that creates a tight block. However, this was never an ideal build to begin with, so utilize probes as your duct tape~!
After this, the game gets more complicated and you'll have to start thinking. Don't worry, I'll help you.
The Early Game
The early game can be a scary time when doing The Stove. Ideally, you want to create as few units as possible to get your StarGate up asap. But even more ideally, you want to keep that scout out of your base.
On a four player map, this means you will be safer, because your opponent will likely be playing more conservatively than on a 2 player map. Pull some probes when you think the opponent's scouting peon may soon be arriving at your base (this will probably be after your gate). Two probes if you have a ramp, and however many you need to fill holes in your wall if you don't. If you misjudge the timing and your opponents SCV gets in anyway, it's possible to use your own scouting probe to build a pylon somewhere else on the map. Because you've got a gateway in your main, a cybernetics core in your main, and no dragoon popping out, it is possible your opponent will think you're so bad you missed your second pylon. If you talked enough trash at the beginning of the game, and you're not well respected in general, it will only further this theory in your opponent's mind. Ideally though, your opponent doesn't even check how many pylons you have. Still, you should get your second pylon in main asap if they breach your base.
Furthermore, it's a good idea not to bother scouting with your probe if he's gotten in your base. This will help support the theory that you are a helpless noob who doesn't even scout. Your actual flying spaceship scout will scout him soon enough anyway, and you'll just need to rely on DTs at home to save you from any rush.
I have you now, SCV... YOU WILL NOT LIVE TO TELL THE OTHERS!
HermitProbe lives as a recluse in a far away land.
In the event that your opponent attacks you with some kind of small zergling or marine force, you will need to pull probes to defend. Luckily probes own both marines and zerglings. If you're playing against Terran, the first unit you'll want to pop out is a dragoon (in order to fool him into thinking you're playing standard). Sometimes on a four player map you will be able to get the dragoon out before he even scouts your blocking probes. Against a zerg, you will obviously get a zealot (and more until you can block your ramp/choke).
The Scout
When you get your Stargate you're going to want to save up 275 minerals timed for as soon as it finishes, as well as 3 supply. The scout is a pivital part of this strategy. Remember, 275 minerals is almost the cost of an expansion (plus 125 gas), so you're going to need to do at least that much damage in order to make it worth it.
That should be enough
Delaying expansions and disrupting supply are also great ways to make use of your scout. Not to mention forcing your opponent to get goliaths or turrets. Remember however, not to lose your scout. This unit is not only important for harassment; you'll also be using it in both the DT stage of the game to scout out paths for your DTs, and in the arbiter stage of the game to find good spots to recall. This scout must live.
YEAAAH FUCK EM UP!!
Depending on whether you opponent attacked you or not, you should either have started your citadel right after your stargate, or right after your scout started producing, bringing you to the next stage.
The Dark Templar
When your citadel completes, warp in the templar archives asap. If you want 2 dark templar harass, you should build a 2nd gateway at the same time as the archives and it will be ready for you when the archives completes. Optionally, you can keep to one gate templar and instead take an expo if you feel safe doing so (like on maps with a backyard expo).
Since you're so far behind from teching this hard, the templars are going to need to do a shit load of damage too. If you can shut down your opponents main and leave him to just his expansion that's satisfactory.
Make sure you expand yourself also, at this stage, whether you've gone one gate or two gate dt, the role of those DT are to give you enough map control to expo, and to, as much as possible, delay your opponents economy. If you can place a DT where CC wants to land, that will pay off in dividends.
Ninjas!
After you've gotten your DTs, you need to start your arbiter tribunal and start adding gates. You'll be pumping out zealots because of the high gas cost for arbiters, so investing in legs later will be wise.
The Arbiter
The arbiter. As soon as your tribunal finishes, you're gonna need to make sure you have 350 gas so you can start this baby up immediately. Use its cloak to your advantage and take map control. You will probably be able to get another expansion at this time, especially against Terran who you've hopefully baited into using scans against your DTs.
When your Arbiter finishes, you should start stasis immediately. This way when your arbiter gets to 100 energy, stasis will finish exactly at this time. Likewise, for recall, you should start researching it at 95 energy, or right after stasis finishes (if you have nothing to stasis), so that you will have enough energy to recall right when it finishes.
Keep making arbiters and zealots and if you're able to get your third expansion, start mixing in high templar and dragoons to supplement your army. Stasis smartly and recall when your opponent tries to move out.
Get your robo out asap if your opponent is trying to take advantage of your lack of detection (which you should respond to first with cannons, and then with obs since they will take awhile).
In some cases, preventing the enemy from getting detection will be your primary concern. Prioritize your stasis wisely
Don't neglect your options! Arbiters are super units that give an immense amount of mobility both defensively and offensively
Hotkeys
If you're having trouble executing The Stove, your issue may be hotkeys. The Stove is not a macro build and thus does not utilize a macro setup. Each type of harass unit must have it's own hotkey in order to be utilized effectively.
My scouting probe is almost always 2. This is standard for me, and so when I no longer need my scouting probe (because my scout is about to be finished, or because my scouting probe died) it is very natural for me to select 2 as my hotkey for my scout. This allows me to keep a close eye on it and to maximize my annoyingness.
When my DTs arrive, I move my scout's hotkey to 3 as I'm no longer focusing on it as much (usually because my opponent has build up a defence to counter it). I will put my DTs on 2 and use the same harassment oriented style I usually do. FYI my ramp and main army units always get 1.
When my arb comes, I generally group them with my main army, and as my main army grows larger, they will take hotkeys 2 3 and 4. My harass units will either get an obscure hotkey on the right hand of the keyboard, or they will be mixed in my main army if I feel the enemy has plugged himself in very well. The scout is always used as a scout, however, and should not be grouped with the main army.
For buildings, it is ideal to have your first gateway on 4, and the building of whatever tech you're researching on 5. This way while you're waiting on tech, you can check and time you battles/recalls appropriately.
If you aren't concerning yourself with research, add gateways to each number going up so that as your main army steals those hotkeys, you'll still have something you can tap twice to macro. 0 and 9 are of course nexii, and 8 is either a robo or another nexus.
Team Melee
As bad as this build is, I truly believe it has validity in this game mode. If you are the macroer, it is also a lot of fun to surprise both your allies and your enemy with this build.
In my opinion, the best way to play team melee is to have one person control both the macro and the main army, and others to control harassment oriented units. This way there is no fighting and everyone has fun. The Stove is ideal for this because the scout is a lot of fun to harass with (say microer one on your team) and if you have another person on your team, they get to have fun with the DTs. Later in the game, expertly controlled recalls by your microers will be excellent in combination with a well controlled main army and macro by yourself.
Furthermore, because team melee is so hectic, when your opponents see you doing such a weird strategy, they tend to react extremely badly and bicker with each other about how it should be dealt with. This buys time for you to do serious damage with your early tech harassment units, and also to expand safely yourself.
If that's not enough, consider that the best counter to this build is a rush. Who the hell wants to 4 pool in a team melee? The macroer will always do a conservativeish build because he wants something to do while his microers are having fun with the units he builds. That is likely why I've had so much success with this build in team melee. It's counters aren't fun.
Replays and FPVOD
Here are some 1.16 replays and a team melee FPVOD. The replays aren't all great but they will illustrate what you're basically supposed to do. The FPVOD is the only Team Melee stove I ever actually recorded... it's also the worst... But it's kind of hilarious because my ally is so... Well. You'll see if you watch it.
On June 07 2009 15:29 FastEddieV wrote: No replays? I'd like to see where it shines best. What maps do you recommend this build on?
Maps with a ramp or a small choke, but also a backyard expo (sometimes! But it will make you DT harass harder, so maybe just against Zerg). 4 player maps that will help you conceal the build. Twilight because for some reason it just feels more natural to do the stove on them.
I won't say this is a good build, but I have beat players who are generally better than me with it, and I've never actually lost with it (due probably to immense luck). If you're better than your opponent, in general you don't even make it to arbiters before they're already typing GG.
This is just a fun build and this guide is meant to point out some things you may not know. The timings for the arbiter spells being the most technical, but also when to add gates and how to play the early game are also things that are hopefully made easier from reading this guide.
On June 07 2009 16:17 scyper wrote: does early turret negate the entire build?
There's always holes. And if there aren't, you just have to try to assert as much map control as you can with your superior tech. He will not have a turret ready for your scout, guaranteed. Even if he see's your stargate warping in, he will assume some stupid one base carriers build. Unless he actually sees its lights flashing indicating it's building, he can't know you're getting a scout. At the timing, it's really unlikely he'll see your stargate while it's building your scout anyway. The DTs also come very fast, but even if they don't come fast enough, the map control you get from them will still help you.
Do you recommend the upgrades for the scout? I feel naked using scouts without their apial sensors... Maybe as you're teching to arbiters, after the DTs are out?
It's just one scout, and absolutely not. A fleet beacon and the upgrade you want from it will cost so much gas and delay your arbiter immensely. Even after you've gotten the arb, it's just silly. Only get scout upgrades if you're going mass scouts, and don't go mass scouts because although maybe it's not much worse than the stove, it's totally boring and uninteresting.
Oh my God, this was like my /only/ PvT build back when I played PvT. nice Guide Does this actually work past D- level in iCCup these days? I might give it a try ;o
This is one of the better made guides though! It's very visually appealing and the fact that you chose to do this had me laughing the whole time, haha.
On June 07 2009 18:31 Gliche wrote: that was just forgg pushing on kal's arbiter tech and he needed units to fight the push. the stove doesnt actually win games (normally xD)
he went dt>scout>arbiter thats stove any way you put it
On June 08 2009 00:32 Chef wrote: Better players than you have lost to it ^^
those better players should'nt be called better.. =)
Strat forum hero right here.
im just defending my point that this build isnt just viable nowadays.. maybe back then but now never. marines can negate the scout. dts can be late bec of stargate plus lack of gas. and assuming every terran nowadays just adds turrets when they smell somethings fishy. and how the hell can it survive from a strong fd?
On June 08 2009 00:32 Chef wrote: Better players than you have lost to it ^^
those better players should'nt be called better.. =)
Strat forum hero right here.
im just defending my point that this build isnt just viable nowadays.. maybe back then but now never. marines can negate the scout. dts can be late bec of stargate plus lack of gas. and assuming every terran nowadays just adds turrets when they smell somethings fishy. and how the hell can it survive from a strong fd?
What's your Iccup account? I'll be happy to school you a bit with this very build, then provide more replays for this topic... hell, it will even take away the disadvantage of not knowing that I'll do.
Awesome topic, Chef. This and the 4 gate 2 Archon guide are so far my favorite in this website. ^.^
On June 08 2009 00:32 Chef wrote: Better players than you have lost to it ^^
those better players should'nt be called better.. =)
Strat forum hero right here.
im just defending my point that this build isnt just viable nowadays.. maybe back then but now never. marines can negate the scout. dts can be late bec of stargate plus lack of gas. and assuming every terran nowadays just adds turrets when they smell somethings fishy. and how the hell can it survive from a strong fd?
What's your Iccup account? I'll be happy to school you a bit with this very build, then provide more replays for this topic... hell, it will even take away the disadvantage of not knowing that I'll do.
Awesome topic, Chef. This and the 4 gate 2 Archon guide are so far my favorite in this website. ^.^
eXo.Lastgamer.. yea sure practice hard.. i just dont see the main purpose of this build other than fun and not winning.
The build was great back then, although certainly isn't as nice any more with Ts constantly making 4+ marines in all their builds.
Nonetheless, it was great to walk down memory lane and be refreshed to that sexy build. In tribute to this thread, I will be going 2base arbiter and DT drop a lot more! :o
If you're having trouble with the early little group of marines Terran's get, I would suggest another perspective. For example, you know that your scout is faster than his marines. This means you can fly around his base as much as you like, and he will never actually be able to kill you. If he keeps chasing you with his marines, you can tech/expo faster than you normally would because you want need to build units for defending a push. If he moves out with his marines and tank, then you will get free hits on his SCVs, and more critically, his scvs that are trying to build stuff.
Also, if he is relying on his marines to fend off your scout, is he getting turrets or detection? This will help your DTs make up for your scout in the second part of the game.
I'm of course not saying this is a superior strategy, or faulting you. I am only trying to suggest how you can better utilize this build, as apposed to setting up barriers like 'since Terrans do this it's impossible.' My replays aren't from 4 years ago. They're all 1.16.
If you can take out a marine that strays from it's group, this will also help you.
Although in my guide I suggest killing an expo's worth with your scout, that was more of a joke than a serious expectation. The advantage a scout gives you is more the intel it gives you than anything. It will get there at a timing far earlier than a regular observers build, and allow you to get quickly to arbiters because it is along the way, unlike a robo and observatory. If you get just 3 kills with the scout that's probably normal.
One of my favourite pvt builds ever. It's so absurd it's brilliant. I have a game where I stove fairly recent, though it didn't last to arbiters (I didn't realize arbiters were part of the build actually) if you want it. He makes goliaths and marines and shit as soon as he sees the scout and he still loses.
On June 08 2009 04:51 Chef wrote: If you're having trouble with the early little group of marines Terran's get, I would suggest another perspective. For example, you know that your scout is faster than his marines. This means you can fly around his base as much as you like, and he will never actually be able to kill you. If he keeps chasing you with his marines, you can tech/expo faster than you normally would because you want need to build units for defending a push. If he moves out with his marines and tank, then you will get free hits on his SCVs, and more critically, his scvs that are trying to build stuff.
Also, if he is relying on his marines to fend off your scout, is he getting turrets or detection? This will help your DTs make up for your scout in the second part of the game.
I'm of course not saying this is a superior strategy, or faulting you. I am only trying to suggest how you can better utilize this build, as apposed to setting up barriers like 'since Terrans do this it's impossible.' My replays aren't from 4 years ago. They're all 1.16.
If you can take out a marine that strays from it's group, this will also help you.
Although in my guide I suggest killing an expo's worth with your scout, that was more of a joke than a serious expectation. The advantage a scout gives you is more the intel it gives you than anything. It will get there at a timing far earlier than a regular observers build, and allow you to get quickly to arbiters because it is along the way, unlike a robo and observatory. If you get just 3 kills with the scout that's probably normal.
But it's not like your scout is yielding great returns, I mean its a draw at best for the Stove user. Hell the Terran can drop a bunker and hide units in that.
Still an interesting strategy to pull from time to time, people forget how to play against old stuff more than they would like to think
And for the people attempting to shit on this strategy, Chef is very realistic in the guide (if you can pick up the nuances), and doesn't advocate it as something super effective in the strategy sense.
whenever i open with the stove i always do DT tech before the scout... and also gas before gateway or else I do not have enough gas for the first arbiter
Stove has always been a pretty crappy build. Once the terran sees something fishy going on with ur base they will either expect DT, Reaver, or Air. All of which are countered by turrets.
On June 08 2009 07:51 neobowman wrote: Dammit, now everybody will be prepared when I use this against them -_-. I used to win all the time with this, might not now. Good job nonetheless.
Neo, we saw Greth's game where you tried this. It was godly.
On June 08 2009 00:32 Chef wrote: Better players than you have lost to it ^^
those better players should'nt be called better.. =)
Strat forum hero right here.
im just defending my point that this build isnt just viable nowadays.. maybe back then but now never. marines can negate the scout. dts can be late bec of stargate plus lack of gas. and assuming every terran nowadays just adds turrets when they smell somethings fishy. and how the hell can it survive from a strong fd?
I doubt it was ever viable. No one will argue with you that this is a bad build...I'm surprised you couldn't tell by Chef's tone in the OP.
It's a joke build that can work against someone who's never played against it before, or someone who is really bad at the game.
If it works twice on the same guy, he's bad. If it doesn't work the first time on someone, he's good.
This guide really sux. He made a so long post to explain 2-3 simple concept that can be explained in 2 sentences. He made so long, i am quite sure, for competing for sc2 beta key.
For explain my point of view if i have to made a guide of "Going to toilet" i would never started speaking about "shit" and stomach anatomy, i would never say about water in medieval age. I would simply say: Get ur pants off and make it in a bathroom if possible(trees can work too).
Some of you completely misunderstand the point of the stove: it's not a viable build, really, it's a build meant to fuck with your opponent and have some fun. Stop complaining about this build 'not working', you're right 99% of the time, but when it does it's gold.
i used to love doing the stove in PvT. It catches T players off guard so frequently. I've never done or known the stove to be a working strategy in PvZ. Wasn't it confirmed that Corsairs > Scouts for ovie harass?
Stove is a perfectly acceptable build if you want to mix it up a bit, unless the Terran is a paranoid over-turreting maniac. It's a great way to force an ebay and an armory. It's a decent tech transition to arbiters too, you just don't have any robo tech, depending on what your opponent does it may not be necessary until later anyway.
Also the guide kinda sucked a lot of pictures and jibberish that go nowhere
On June 10 2009 00:25 Amber[LighT] wrote: i used to love doing the stove in PvT. It catches T players off guard so frequently. I've never done or known the stove to be a working strategy in PvZ. Wasn't it confirmed that Corsairs > Scouts for ovie harass?
Stove is a perfectly acceptable build if you want to mix it up a bit, unless the Terran is a paranoid over-turreting maniac. It's a great way to force an ebay and an armory. It's a decent tech transition to arbiters too, you just don't have any robo tech, depending on what your opponent does it may not be necessary until later anyway.
Also the guide kinda sucked a lot of pictures and jibberish that go nowhere
If you got a corsair it just wouldn't be the stove. Anyway, a single scout is better than a single corsair (ignoring build time). Corsair power comes from their splash in numbers, otherwise they are just scouting Z tech and sniping a really, really stray overlord.
I tried to explain how each phase of the build works and how each unit must be used... I wouldn't send a toddler into the bathroom and tell him to make it happen while potty training him (to use an example posted earlier in the thread...) and I wouldn't tell someone to automatically know how important it is to keep the scout alive instead of just killing stuff with it until it's dead and you free up supply. I'm sorry if it sounded confusing
EDIT: Of course I'm not saying it's as good against Zerg as it is against Terran... Just that it's possible to use on Zerg and has been done. Scouts kill those ovies really quick early game, and give your DTs some serious mobility if the Z doesn't want to spore or hydra (as apposed to getting 9 fast mutas which would absolutely rape if he could live past DTs). The only matchup I really think The Stove is just absolutely impossible is vs Protoss, because dragoons are a normal part of the matchup, you can get them quick, and they pretty much destroy everything in this build. I can maybe see a fast scout working if he goes for reaver drop, so that you could snipe his shuttle... I don't know. I've never actually done it vs Protoss. It just leaves you so wide open to DTs and DTs are such a popular strategy (and all you'd succeed in if he did is making your DTs later than his and cutting 375 minerals from your main army. It just sounds more like rolling the dice than taking a small disadvantage to play with some really fun units (as it is for the other matchups).
It may not be the one strategy to rule them all... one strategy to find t- er but it definitely has practical uses. Think about any 4 player ramped mains map. It's relatively common to block your ramp if you can by that time, and if they scout you last you'll definitely be able to block it, and without arousing any suspicion. You don't go stove unless you know you're the vastly better player if they scout you first and quickly, you have enough time to figure out whether you're gonna stove or not based on the game. If terran scouts you last, and the only thing he can scout is a goon blocking a ramp, the only thing he knows about your build is that you made a gateway somewhere and a goon. That knocks out very few possible strategies in his mind. He could assume you're playing "standard", for some 1gate expo, 2gate expo. You could be going 1gate or 2gate reaver, you could be going bulldog, maybe you're doing dt, or some mass speedlot timing attack bullshit. Or if you just read this guide, you could be going Stove. Who in the right mind would suspect it? Then holy shit he has a scout in his base! The only way to really counter this is by having made an early ebay, ie you have to suspect it's coming. That early ebay isn't viable vs half the other more likely strategical options you could've done since it makes their expo later, and they can expo first and ebay after and be fine vs the other half. Once a scout is there, what are they going to do? Waste money on marines who will only slowly lower the shields on the scout? The scout is going to kill the marine(s) and then go back to killing the scv making the ebay/turret. Not too long from then a dt is coming. Even with turrets, both the dt and scout can harass the terran in multiple places. If terran has mass goliaths, you're doing it wrong. Sure, you just spent the money requires to take an expo and a half on this tech, but you're able to harass terran, kill scvs you'd never normally be able to with another build, and completely threw his bo off. You should be able to salvage the scout even after it can't do any more damage, live another day to harass terran's main/nat/expo(s) or snipe shuttles, whatever. All stuff terran has to make turrets for and waste money on.
On June 10 2009 00:25 Amber[LighT] wrote: i used to love doing the stove in PvT. It catches T players off guard so frequently. I've never done or known the stove to be a working strategy in PvZ. Wasn't it confirmed that Corsairs > Scouts for ovie harass?
Stove is a perfectly acceptable build if you want to mix it up a bit, unless the Terran is a paranoid over-turreting maniac. It's a great way to force an ebay and an armory. It's a decent tech transition to arbiters too, you just don't have any robo tech, depending on what your opponent does it may not be necessary until later anyway.
Also the guide kinda sucked a lot of pictures and jibberish that go nowhere
If you got a corsair it just wouldn't be the stove. Anyway, a single scout is better than a single corsair (ignoring build time). Corsair power comes from their splash in numbers, otherwise they are just scouting Z tech and sniping a really, really stray overlord.
I tried to explain how each phase of the build works and how each unit must be used... I wouldn't send a toddler into the bathroom and tell him to make it happen while potty training him (to use an example posted earlier in the thread...) and I wouldn't tell someone to automatically know how important it is to keep the scout alive instead of just killing stuff with it until it's dead and you free up supply. I'm sorry if it sounded confusing
EDIT: Of course I'm not saying it's as good against Zerg as it is against Terran... Just that it's possible to use on Zerg and has been done. Scouts kill those ovies really quick early game, and give your DTs some serious mobility if the Z doesn't want to spore or hydra (as apposed to getting 9 fast mutas which would absolutely rape if he could live past DTs). The only matchup I really think The Stove is just absolutely impossible is vs Protoss, because dragoons are a normal part of the matchup, you can get them quick, and they pretty much destroy everything in this build. I can maybe see a fast scout working if he goes for reaver drop, so that you could snipe his shuttle... I don't know. I've never actually done it vs Protoss. It just leaves you so wide open to DTs and DTs are such a popular strategy (and all you'd succeed in if he did is making your DTs later than his and cutting 375 minerals from your main army. It just sounds more like rolling the dice than taking a small disadvantage to play with some really fun units (as it is for the other matchups).
I know it wouldn't, hence why I was implying that the stove is not a good PvZ strat.
"A single scout is better than a single corsair (ignore build time)."
Well yah of course. A single scout is better than a single corsair (depending on what "better" might mean). A single Dark Templar is better than a scout too (ignoring build time). An Archon is better than a scout (ignoring build time). Hell even a Dragoon is better than a scout (regardless of build time). You see what I'm getting at? You can't make a guide and say 'well a scout is good because if you happen to have it then its better than one of a different unit. I think in the time you create one scout (80 Seconds) you can create two corsairs (40 Seconds each), so perhaps it would be important to note the build time since you should be comparing getting one scout in the time it takes to make two corsairs. Consider the 40 seconds of scouting time lost because your scout didn't get out. I think you will miss the timing window to get cannons vs fast muta, and one slow scout can get sniped pretty quickly vs. x number of hydra.
At killing overlords, you dunce. LOL Scouts do 28 damage air to air. Sairs do 5 unless they're attacking a group of units which splash will help with. If your goal is to snipe overlords to make a path for your DTs to attack, that big damage early game is important. Sairs don't get that powerful until you have 4 or 5 of them heading into the midgame.
Furthermore, 2 corsairs is TWO HUNDRED gas. Which slows down your tech. When you're doing a tech build. A scout is 125 gas all on its own and eats less supply than 2 sairs. Not to mention you completely deny yourself the opportunity of maybe taking out a drone or two in the early game.
I also think you don't have any idea how early I'm getting that scout out.
Amber[light] what are you talking about? A dragoon doesn't fly and can't harass to the level a scout can, in this situation a scout is better. One scout is MUCH better than two corsairs in this situation.
On June 10 2009 06:26 Nightmarjoo wrote: Amber[light] what are you talking about? A dragoon doesn't fly and can't harass to the level a scout can, in this situation a scout is better. One scout is MUCH better than two corsairs in this situation.
On June 10 2009 06:26 Nightmarjoo wrote: Amber[light] what are you talking about? A dragoon doesn't fly and can't harass to the level a scout can, in this situation a scout is better. One scout is MUCH better than two corsairs in this situation.
have you tried to ovie harass with one scout?
i hope you guys aren't serious about this :/
Yes, it works a lot faster even with hydras around oO
On June 07 2009 16:35 FastEddieV wrote: Do you recommend the upgrades for the scout? I feel naked using scouts without their apial sensors... Maybe as you're teching to arbiters, after the DTs are out?
On June 10 2009 03:15 Chef wrote: At killing overlords, you dunce. LOL Scouts do 28 damage air to air. Sairs do 5 unless they're attacking a group of units which splash will help with. If your goal is to snipe overlords to make a path for your DTs to attack, that big damage early game is important. Sairs don't get that powerful until you have 4 or 5 of them heading into the midgame.
Furthermore, 2 corsairs is TWO HUNDRED gas. Which slows down your tech. When you're doing a tech build. A scout is 125 gas all on its own and eats less supply than 2 sairs. Not to mention you completely deny yourself the opportunity of maybe taking out a drone or two in the early game.
I also think you don't have any idea how early I'm getting that scout out.
So basically your saying
"I love getting raped by 2 hatch hydra every game"
Yes?
Scout is vastly inferior to sair in everyway EXCEPT in the rare cases where zerg makes no hydra den and relies on a fast spore against 1 base P, WHICH SUCKS. And even then, they can do that while going pure 3 hatch speedling and still usually kill you(again only bad zergs would do this). A good zerg is always going to have hydras out in time for SAIR timing not to mention SCOUT timing.
Scouts take longer to build, fly slower, cost more minerals and have crappy acceleration. As a result they are incredibly easy to deflect. Any player that knows what hes doing will crush you if you try to open scout first. Every time. Unless you're already way better than your opponent. But whats the fucking point in writing a strat guide for that situation?
On June 10 2009 02:44 Nightmarjoo wrote: Everyone who keeps saying it doesn't work has probably never actually tried it, or tried it prior to reading templar's guide and fucked it up.
It may not be the one strategy to rule them all... one strategy to find t- er but it definitely has practical uses. Think about any 4 player ramped mains map. It's relatively common to block your ramp if you can by that time, and if they scout you last you'll definitely be able to block it, and without arousing any suspicion. You don't go stove unless you know you're the vastly better player if they scout you first and quickly, you have enough time to figure out whether you're gonna stove or not based on the game. If terran scouts you last, and the only thing he can scout is a goon blocking a ramp, the only thing he knows about your build is that you made a gateway somewhere and a goon. That knocks out very few possible strategies in his mind. He could assume you're playing "standard", for some 1gate expo, 2gate expo. You could be going 1gate or 2gate reaver, you could be going bulldog, maybe you're doing dt, or some mass speedlot timing attack bullshit. Or if you just read this guide, you could be going Stove. Who in the right mind would suspect it? Then holy shit he has a scout in his base! The only way to really counter this is by having made an early ebay, ie you have to suspect it's coming. That early ebay isn't viable vs half the other more likely strategical options you could've done since it makes their expo later, and they can expo first and ebay after and be fine vs the other half. Once a scout is there, what are they going to do? Waste money on marines who will only slowly lower the shields on the scout? The scout is going to kill the marine(s) and then go back to killing the scv making the ebay/turret. Not too long from then a dt is coming. Even with turrets, both the dt and scout can harass the terran in multiple places. If terran has mass goliaths, you're doing it wrong. Sure, you just spent the money requires to take an expo and a half on this tech, but you're able to harass terran, kill scvs you'd never normally be able to with another build, and completely threw his bo off. You should be able to salvage the scout even after it can't do any more damage, live another day to harass terran's main/nat/expo(s) or snipe shuttles, whatever. All stuff terran has to make turrets for and waste money on.
like i've said a terran who is denied of scouting will always add turrets.. turrets prevent any harrass dt or reaver or whatever cheesy builds.. and besides 4-7 rines on an fd cannot stop 1 single scout? are you dumb or somethin? and how are you gonna handle mines? how can you even get out with very late robo?
I think the flaw with 2 hatch hydra would be that you aren't going to have any overlords outside your natural with which to detect DTs.
But yeah, as it's been said a million times (including the guide if you felt like reading more than just the title ), if the opponent knows what's coming and has seen it before they can deflect it fairly easily. It's a surprise build that relies on the wit of the player executing it The only thing I'm arguing is that in the case of this build, a scout is more efficient than a sair. Against Zerg, Z has to be generally really bad, but sometimes if the player is smart, it can be pulled off against okay Terrans. Moreover, at the low levels, even if you opponent is more skilled than you, this build works because it's confusing.
It will work way past D, however, I will tell you that. This build gives you so many options, and so much scouting information... It's really up to the player to utilize that information rather than to say "This build sucks cause 12 hydra and overlords beat 1 scout and 2 dts in direct 1a2a3a combat." Of course they do.
I feel stupid trying to defend the build lol, but I mean. There's it being an inferior strategy to modern methods, and there's it being useless. I think it's the former rather than the latter. It's also a lot of fun, in and of itself
theforeverwar, turrets do NOT nullify scouts or dts entirely. You aren't engaging 4-7 marines with one scout, if you did fight them you'd just attack and run back the same way you micro mutas and wraiths. With the way you talk I assume when you muta harass you just 'a' into a big fucking ball?
Mines can be diffused with gosu goon micro, no problem.
Clearly mines pose a potential threat to the dts which are core to the build however, so basic scouting will see if terran is opening fd (if he opened 1fact) or not. There's no reason why you can't go with a normal gameplan after scouting, you aren't going to be committed to your build yet. We aren't urging a suicidal gameplan, this build can work in certain circumstances vs non-terrible players, it obviously isn't ideal in some situations however. So, don't use it in those scenarios. Alternatively you can do some variation of the build, don't have to follow it exactly if you'd get better results by deviating slightly.
So your version of The Stove involves going fast DT, all but killing your opponent, letting him live with like 20 supply while you have 70 so you can mass scouts, then you don't get arbs, then you waste another 10 minutes getting to 200/200 scouts, and then you finally finish him off even though you could have done that 20 minutes ago?
There's something not even remotely entertaining about that. If you can finish the game, you have to finish the game, otherwise who wants to see your replay of you dicking around by yourself while your opponent is stuck in his base thinking 'if he could have finished me he would have! Maybe I can still win!" Kinda just BM and not funny at all. Not to mention super off topic
So your version of The Stove involves going fast DT, all but killing your opponent, letting him live with like 20 supply while you have 70 so you can mass scouts, then you don't get arbs, then you waste another 10 minutes getting to 200/200 scouts, and then you finally finish him off even though you could have done that 20 minutes ago?
There's something not even remotely entertaining about that. If you can finish the game, you have to finish the game, otherwise who wants to see your replay of you dicking around by yourself while your opponent is stuck in his base thinking 'if he could have finished me he would have! Maybe I can still win!" Kinda just BM and not funny at all. Not to mention super off topic
Sharing funny reps raping people with scouts on ICCup... about as relevant to anything useful in BW as this strategy you've kindly posted a guide to.
In all fairness Chef, you could explain why this build worked when it did better. I think most people in this thread aren't realistic with what the Stove was originally, then (stupidly m and blindly) trying to apply it to today's standards. It was a gimmicky build to begin with that you maybe tried once every match or so, but it was never a staple build.
The problem with your guide is that you more or less blur this distinction, I think the guide overall would be better if you did a the Stove then and the Stove now kind of thing, a little history lesson to people who understand what the Stove is and then give another perspective to the current state of the game.
And I get the feeling you really don't have a good idea either, since the Stove was never meant for PvZ, just way too many things that can shit on your limited returns build.
On June 12 2009 02:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: theforeverwar, turrets do NOT nullify scouts or dts entirely. You aren't engaging 4-7 marines with one scout, if you did fight them you'd just attack and run back the same way you micro mutas and wraiths. With the way you talk I assume when you muta harass you just 'a' into a big fucking ball?
Mines can be diffused with gosu goon micro, no problem.
Clearly mines pose a potential threat to the dts which are core to the build however, so basic scouting will see if terran is opening fd (if he opened 1fact) or not. There's no reason why you can't go with a normal gameplan after scouting, you aren't going to be committed to your build yet. We aren't urging a suicidal gameplan, this build can work in certain circumstances vs non-terrible players, it obviously isn't ideal in some situations however. So, don't use it in those scenarios. Alternatively you can do some variation of the build, don't have to follow it exactly if you'd get better results by deviating slightly.
1v1?
Which circumstances vs non terrible players can it work? (Answer: none. Against non terrible players is key)
On June 12 2009 07:12 Chef wrote: So this was all a clever way of you saying you don't like this guide? Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Actually it was the truth about the usefulness of your guide.
This is like writing a guide on how to do a mass queen broodling rush...
If your guide is a joke/justfor fun then fine. But don't act like the stove is a viable build. It isn't.
As bad as this build is,
Yeah, I'm really selling it.
You know what? I truly believe my guide with pictures and jokes and little tips about the nuances of units used in the build is more useful and entertaining than some guy doing mass scouts after he's already won the game.
Also, you're asking nightmarjoo for a 1v1... I'm sure he'll oblige, but you can't say "DO THE STOVE OR YOUR DUMB." If you know your opponents build, no matter what they're doing, it's a huge advantage.
On June 12 2009 07:51 DamageControL wrote: At D levels it can work. Even when the other person is D.
It'll work easy on C levels too. I can't say anything about B levels because I don't play at that level (and I'm not going to be an idiot extrapolating my rank asking myself 'what if I played a few 100 games' ). But from what I've seen, it does happen on rare occasion that A level players will dick around with it in a casual game.
On June 12 2009 07:51 DamageControL wrote: At D levels it can work. Even when the other person is D.
But a 1 gate dt rush would just win...
So this is just extra bullshit.
Uh...I am d...and play at a D level. And yes we aren't very good, but one gate DT rushes are not auto wins, and the DT rush wouldn't have worked he had mines and turrets.
And TheForeverWar didn't you see when he said that it was a bad build that relies on surprise? Of course its not the best build, but the surprise helps you execute it.
On June 12 2009 02:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: theforeverwar, turrets do NOT nullify scouts or dts entirely. You aren't engaging 4-7 marines with one scout, if you did fight them you'd just attack and run back the same way you micro mutas and wraiths. With the way you talk I assume when you muta harass you just 'a' into a big fucking ball?
Mines can be diffused with gosu goon micro, no problem.
Clearly mines pose a potential threat to the dts which are core to the build however, so basic scouting will see if terran is opening fd (if he opened 1fact) or not. There's no reason why you can't go with a normal gameplan after scouting, you aren't going to be committed to your build yet. We aren't urging a suicidal gameplan, this build can work in certain circumstances vs non-terrible players, it obviously isn't ideal in some situations however. So, don't use it in those scenarios. Alternatively you can do some variation of the build, don't have to follow it exactly if you'd get better results by deviating slightly.
1v1?
Which circumstances vs non terrible players can it work? (Answer: none. Against non terrible players is key)
Sure I'll 1v1. Time/place?
From my understanding, stove is best vs a Terran who is opening 1fact cc with siege, getting ebay after cc. I'm not exactly sure of the timing, but if terran doesn't suspect you're going scouts, he's probably going to have 2-4 turrets max to be safe. Those turrets won't cover everything, scouts are simply too mobile. As he tries to make more turrets, you get to kill scvs trying to build. You can kill a misplaced tank or something too. Will stove work against a progamer? Probably not. Vs a B- terran or lower? Quite possibly. The key to stove is that terran isn't expecting it, and a terran even playing relatively safe is going to have some weaknesses, some openings for a scout to do damage. The scout isn't even the key here, the scout just throws terran off making terran more vulnerable to dt than he'd normally be.
On June 12 2009 02:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: theforeverwar, turrets do NOT nullify scouts or dts entirely. You aren't engaging 4-7 marines with one scout, if you did fight them you'd just attack and run back the same way you micro mutas and wraiths. With the way you talk I assume when you muta harass you just 'a' into a big fucking ball?
Mines can be diffused with gosu goon micro, no problem.
Clearly mines pose a potential threat to the dts which are core to the build however, so basic scouting will see if terran is opening fd (if he opened 1fact) or not. There's no reason why you can't go with a normal gameplan after scouting, you aren't going to be committed to your build yet. We aren't urging a suicidal gameplan, this build can work in certain circumstances vs non-terrible players, it obviously isn't ideal in some situations however. So, don't use it in those scenarios. Alternatively you can do some variation of the build, don't have to follow it exactly if you'd get better results by deviating slightly.
1v1?
Which circumstances vs non terrible players can it work? (Answer: none. Against non terrible players is key)
Sure I'll 1v1. Time/place?
From my understanding, stove is best vs a Terran who is opening 1fact cc with siege, getting ebay after cc. I'm not exactly sure of the timing, but if terran doesn't suspect you're going scouts, he's probably going to have 2-4 turrets max to be safe. Those turrets won't cover everything, scouts are simply too mobile. As he tries to make more turrets, you get to kill scvs trying to build. You can kill a misplaced tank or something too. Will stove work against a progamer? Probably not. Vs a B- terran or lower? Quite possibly. The key to stove is that terran isn't expecting it, and a terran even playing relatively safe is going to have some weaknesses, some openings for a scout to do damage. The scout isn't even the key here, the scout just throws terran off making terran more vulnerable to dt than he'd normally be.
For T: 1 Fact CC the first turret completely built is at about 5 minutes, 16 seconds. For P: The Stove's first Scout pops out at about 4 minutes, 38 seconds.
Don't forget this doesn't account for the time for that scout to make it to the main of the T player. And yes, you are right, those turrets will not cover everything, but it's not hard to place another turret within range, which means that expensive scout only got your opponent to throw out 75 minerals in the worst possible scenario.
(though stove in PvT is much more viable than in a PvZ so I kinda agree with you)
On June 12 2009 02:58 Nightmarjoo wrote: theforeverwar, turrets do NOT nullify scouts or dts entirely. You aren't engaging 4-7 marines with one scout, if you did fight them you'd just attack and run back the same way you micro mutas and wraiths. With the way you talk I assume when you muta harass you just 'a' into a big fucking ball?
Mines can be diffused with gosu goon micro, no problem.
Clearly mines pose a potential threat to the dts which are core to the build however, so basic scouting will see if terran is opening fd (if he opened 1fact) or not. There's no reason why you can't go with a normal gameplan after scouting, you aren't going to be committed to your build yet. We aren't urging a suicidal gameplan, this build can work in certain circumstances vs non-terrible players, it obviously isn't ideal in some situations however. So, don't use it in those scenarios. Alternatively you can do some variation of the build, don't have to follow it exactly if you'd get better results by deviating slightly.
1v1?
Which circumstances vs non terrible players can it work? (Answer: none. Against non terrible players is key)
Sure I'll 1v1. Time/place?
From my understanding, stove is best vs a Terran who is opening 1fact cc with siege, getting ebay after cc. I'm not exactly sure of the timing, but if terran doesn't suspect you're going scouts, he's probably going to have 2-4 turrets max to be safe. Those turrets won't cover everything, scouts are simply too mobile. As he tries to make more turrets, you get to kill scvs trying to build. You can kill a misplaced tank or something too. Will stove work against a progamer? Probably not. Vs a B- terran or lower? Quite possibly. The key to stove is that terran isn't expecting it, and a terran even playing relatively safe is going to have some weaknesses, some openings for a scout to do damage. The scout isn't even the key here, the scout just throws terran off making terran more vulnerable to dt than he'd normally be.
I'm rain[lod]. Message me sometime. Whats your iccup id?
Its pretty laughable that you think a B- terran would ever lose to the stove build.
The stove seems to be very effective against unsuspecting zergs. Often I can delay hydras just before my DTs reach the base. Mutas have arrived at my base as my archon finishes warping. All-in zergling would undoubtedly work; hasn't been tried against me yet. Thus far, I'm 11-1 on Iccup using the build. =O
On June 14 2009 06:51 0cz3c wrote: The stove seems to be very effective against unsuspecting zergs. Often I can delay hydras just before my DTs reach the base. Mutas have arrived at my base as my archon finishes warping. All-in zergling would undoubtedly work; hasn't been tried against me yet. Thus far, I'm 11-1 on Iccup using the build. =O
These sentences are nonsense. Also, D level players are horrible. I went through D/D+ going scouts every single game -_-
I love the idea of the stove, I've attempted it a couple of times... but even against my fellow D brothers on iccup... it's such a 'self-counter' build.
It pretty much works like this: If you fail to stop the scouting, terran grabs ebay, turrets, gg. If you do get the scout in (and this is the part I'm not really a fan of) - terran grabs a turret or 2 to protect the workers - then your DT transition is screwed unless you harass something else.
If I saw a toss with a scout I'd probably grab some marines myself :S But whatever.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan and I wish it would work more, and I know it's very much a "LOL HE WASN'T EXPECTING THAT AT ALL" type of build to win, but man, if only there was another way to do it. In fact, if the Scout techs were lower in the tech tree it would be a LOT more feasible.
Royal stove however... man I love that. I did it to my friend, recalled seiged-tanks and he called it cheese... Hilarious.
I can see this making a comeback in the Highlander tournament. I'm sure there will be some people who will be aiming for the 'best play' prizes instead of 1st place prize
I am yet another who lost to the stove, but my opponent didn't even have to go arbiters. I thought he was a noob or something and felt angry then but after reading this guide realize he did the work of a genius.
Well, I tested this build, it's actually viable if you're looking to joke, but I recommend... PvP: Make sure your DT come right after the scout otherwise you die. Either way very risky PvT: DT first recommended. DT rush into scout rush into 2base arbiter. That sort of works. Scout first is also possible but tends to be uneffective except for harassing to keep some marines at home. PvZ: Stick to 2gate into sair-DT... the marauder falls victim to scourge too easily with its explosive damage.
Believe it or not, I actually developed a complete game plan with numbers for 9-patch or 10-patch maps. Here it is: Opening: 8 pylon 10 gate 11 assim zealot and pylon, and immediately start mining gas (you WILL have enough gas but will have to skip obs until late-game if not for the whole game). Block the ramp. second zealot cybernetics core pylon dragoon and dragoon range when core finishes
Teching up: 25 stargate 29-30 citadel pylon 34 templar archives 35 scout and pylon 40-41 DT 43 nexus 44 pylon Arbiter tribunal Research some stuff, maybe a robo facility and obs, put down a bunch of gateways and 2 pylons, and transition into late-game macro mode
This build is amazing. I hard walled myself into my main, and built a scout and dt at about the same time. (I did a templar/stargate at the same time.) My opponent dt rushed me with like 5 dts, which got stuck at my hard wall with photon cannons behind it. I sent in my one dt to his no-detection base, and was about to send in a scout as well. He gg'd almost immediately.
Did this build last night, I'm a terrible D- Zerg. Got some timings wrong and didn't macro well, the terran built a bunker with tanks and mines in front of my ramp and placed turrets at his base and contain...lost the scout and dt's, but won with statis and recall...pretty cool strat. If I random and get ptrotoss I'll be doing this one from now on
for some reason, i've been playing this strat the last couple of pvts i've played. a couple of things i did differently were, letting the scv into my main so the terran player immediately thinks i'm a noob, or starts looking for proxies, and getting dragoons instead of zealots.
with the scv, i think its important to let them in so that the terran doesn't start an ebay too early, so turrets will still be absent when your scout gets there. hopefully you get a couple of SCV kills, and terran panics and throws up a bunch of unneeded turrets. dragoon is just a personal choice, although i think its better for chasing down SCV scouts (the one in your base and others that he might send out).
couple of questions. whats the best time to start goon range, and when do you get your robotics? with this build i seem to always have an excess of minerals. do i take a third base with that, or add lots of gateways and zealots. uploaded a few of my games. in 2 of them, terran moves out and tries to contain me for some reason, despite me having DT tech, and them either having no scanner, or only 1 scanner with energy that i can easily deplete by running DTs in at separate intervals.
This is not a macro build. If you're playing it like a macro build, you are not doing it right. The excess minerals are GOOD. You use it to build 5000 more cannons.
Tried stove again but nowadays terran always FD and get vult mines as early detection. The guide didn't shed light on 2 most important parts:
how to survive early terran aggression and, how to use the dts to cause damage
In my game, I ended up defending with the dt (and barely) when t came with 2 tanks 4 vults (this t did a later expo than usual), when I have 2 dt 2 goons without range and natural nexus building (which I had to cancel). Then I had to devote much of my next 2 mins build cannons to fend off vult harass whilst my goon range/robo is getting built. My dt has no realistic chance of moving out to delay expo/do damage given the path was fully mined. The scout with about 5 kills did delay expansion by about 30 sec but that's about it.
T then had me hard contained with turrets when I tried to move out with obs just came out. By that stage I wasn't able to gain a good position because he's virtually on top of my natural. Eco wise I was slightly ahead but due to bad attacking position, wasn't able to break the contain and lost.
On September 22 2009 08:21 potchip wrote: Tried stove again but nowadays terran always FD and get vult mines as early detection. The guide didn't shed light on 2 most important parts:
how to survive early terran aggression and, how to use the dts to cause damage
the idea is the build is designed to confuse T opponents. when your scout gets to T's main, hopefully he'll start wondering what the fuck is going on, and keep his units/marines in his main to defend against your scout, buying time for your DTs to come out to defend vs the early attack.
In my game, I built stargate after first goon and then added the citadel. Afterwards I also prioritized scout over the archive, however scout takes so bloody long to build (pretty much archive done and scout isn't done yet) by the time my scout flew to t's base, t is already out attacking (and that's a fairly big force for what I have).
I sent another probe just before scout's out and saw t only had 2 marines on ramp so I thought seige expand. Thus I took my natural in response whilst on 2 goons and 2 dts building. My scout however enroute saw vult laying mines at front of t natural which rules out dt walking in. Once the vults/tanks arrive, I don't have anything to engage with. I was lucky in that T tried to mine my ramp and ended up taking down 2 vults with the attempt for the loss of 1 goon. However goon is useless other than mine clearance and ramp blocking, but my prioty is to retake my nat which I don't have any suitable units. I was able to hold due to luck as much as anything give t already mined up my nat and dt chopped 2 mines.
On September 28 2009 14:25 Duckvillelol wrote: I have decided tonight, when I get home, I am going to try and stove some zergs.
Edit: Ok maybe not tonight, I swear it's lik 2 degrees here in Melbourne, my hands are frozen. Maybe tomorrow.
Any tips on stoving a zerg? It's essentially the same strat yeah? But perhaps more effective because a scout can hit a lot harder on the overlords?
in general corsair are more effective for overlord hunting than a scout. This build is really optimal if your opponent has a later lair and if he got a hydra den your scout better be out quickly enough and your micro better be good...
mm I keep thinking of trying this build. However, I'm curious as to how effective it would actually be from first glance it doesn't seem like it would entirely effective. But on the other hand, it leaves you vulnerable especially to a FD Push. Because one scout cannot clean up 5 Marines. and is there any good late game or good follow-up for it? In case you fail?
On September 30 2009 09:31 Tankingit wrote: mm I keep thinking of trying this build. However, I'm curious as to how effective it would actually be from first glance it doesn't seem like it would entirely effective. But on the other hand, it leaves you vulnerable especially to a FD Push. Because one scout cannot clean up 5 Marines. and is there any good late game or good follow-up for it? In case you fail?
you do this to people youre sure you can beat.
though i did see some A+ Korean do this to super(china) and kill him pretty damn easy with it..
I'm about to switch to PvP from a solid 50 games of PvT I'm thinking I should play use it three or 4 times just for a laugh lol!
It's good stuff to use Scouts. I used like 4-5 of them once when I knew I was beat against a hardcore smurf Korean. So I decided to make Scouts for the lol factor. I seriously was laughing a bit while losing bad. Killed a bunch of tanks, a dropship, 4 vultures, and a couple marines with em tho .
O_O Holy crap... there is a build called the Stove... HOLY CRAP, I DID DO THE SAME THING AS THE GUIDE. :O Well, it is in a guide so i will never forget this
"The origins of The Stove is sketchy. Proct is the generally accepted inventor of the strategy. Proct played a person by the Battle.net name TheStove, who used the first two stages of the strat. He then added on the Arbiter part and named the strat The Stove. A NoHunter player by the name of Nate claims to be TheStove."
I tried this pvp and it didn't really work... I did sneak a dt by his obs and kill about 16 probes though lol.
I did it to a terran though and it worked beautifully. I didn't hide the tech, lost my scout to turrets, wasted the dts, and he thought I was a total noob so he pushed out as my arbiter reached 150 energy. It was really funny.
Chef should really get a star for his years of dedication to us, to teach us how to TRULY humiliate our opponents. Yet still no mention of the origional PP replay this idea comes from.
sorry for the bump, but who lost to this build?X_X i cant beleive its still working, its so bad thats its so amazing:D cant wait to do this my self , thank you cheff
On October 29 2011 22:11 sabas123 wrote: sorry for the bump, but who lost to this build?X_X i cant beleive its still working, its so bad thats its so amazing:D cant wait to do this my self , thank you cheff
This is the single manliest build in the whole game! How dare you call it bad?!
i actually lost to this once thinking my opponent was some horrible scrub. SCOUT REALLY? oh fuck dt. wait wtf arbiter? wow i'm losing this... fuck me. Then I tried it a few times and it actually works a good amount of times at D/D+ level. I didn't have much success any higher though. The reason why it works is that it throws people off and people usually don't know what's next at least imo. lol
What's so good about the stove is that your scout will most probably make your opponent turrets that will counter incoming DT, that DTs will make him make scan that will counter incoming arbiter.
It's like the only build I know where the most logical and standard reaction is a hard counter for what comes next at every step.
This guide is wonderful. I laugh every time I read it.
On October 30 2011 20:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: What's so good about the stove is that your scout will most probably make your opponent turrets that will counter incoming DT, that DTs will make him make scan that will counter incoming arbiter.
It's like the only build I know where the most logical and standard reaction is a hard counter for what comes next at every step.
This guide is wonderful. I laugh every time I read it.
I know right haha. This build won't even work against someone slightly worse than you, you have to be completely roflstomp level above them. It's like, I can do this or I can forge fe in the guy's natural(PvT).
On January 30 2013 15:16 Pucca wrote: I'm gonna have to ladder all tomorrow as Toss to get a win with this strat gonna be epic!
Are their any other "goofy" BW strats like this?
vs terran u can 12 nex in ur main and try to get a zealot out to block the ramp then take the nat at a slightly later than usual time but with more probes. u get a better eco than normal (i think) and he will probably think ur allining or something due to ur late expo.
Oh god this is back up. I used to use this strat a few times, but the Royal Stove is way more epic. There should be a three-part video somewhere on youtube of a guy using the Royal Stove in PvT.
If you're playing as Terran and you suspect the Stove, just build a faster academy and get a medic to heal your 3-4 marines that you most likely already have. Then a quicker scanner can be built if you decide to attack while dt's are in the works.
There's no need to freak out spamming turrets everywhere, and the rines/medic can allow you to be more aggressive.
On February 02 2013 23:47 3FFA wrote: But what if he gets TWO SCOUTS?!?! Then I'll be completely locked up in my base! 2 Scouts can easily destroy my tiny marines!
Why not TWELVE SCOUTS
Bisu used scouts to counter goliaths once as well I remember
On March 08 2013 14:46 MarlieChurphy wrote: ebay over turret shuts this down.
I remember when I used to play on Fastest Possible Map (I know, I know, I'm a money map n00b, lol), this guy once floated an ebay over my minerals really early on so that I couldn't send any of my workers to mine
I submit that the Stove still works in the modern era, and against a better player. Just so long as they don't know about the build (so I suppose bumping this thread is counter productive.)
On the docket: Evidence A
Mind you it IS modified based on a Nightmarjaroo's replay. But I liked it because it relies on your opponent scouting you and seeing everything is normal, rather than blocking and being super suspicious early game. It delays tech a little, but gives me a small strike force.
And of course Confidence is key.
(Sorry Qikz, this is a brag post of sorts, but if it is any consolation, I did it because I didn't want to face your drop play.)
On August 18 2014 02:07 Falling wrote: I submit that the Stove still works in the modern era, and against a better player. Just so long as they don't know about the build (so I suppose bumping this thread is counter productive.)
On the docket: Evidence A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZitfMd66o&index=3&list=PLhVQPDxM05zvWMtM0rnUrA4OHN54YT-VO Mind you it IS modified based on a Nightmarjaroo's replay. But I liked it because it relies on your opponent scouting you and seeing everything is normal, rather than blocking and being super suspicious early game. It delays tech a little, but gives me a small strike force.
And of course Confidence is key.
(Sorry Qikz, this is a brag post of sorts, but if it is any consolation, I did it because I didn't want to face your drop play.)
its all good. I remember watching that rep and talking to qikz on how to deal with it. That build as chef says only works on players who don't know what is going on. Despa won't fall for that again!!
On August 18 2014 13:41 puppykiller wrote: Are you really gonna brag about beating someone who just got passed D+ for the first time in a PvT with that bo?
why shouldn't he? It's all in good fun and shows that the stove still has a place even if its more of a surprise build. Also, Qikz is C- now though I dunno how he would rate his TvP.
On August 18 2014 13:41 puppykiller wrote: Are you really gonna brag about beating someone who just got passed D+ for the first time in a PvT with that bo?
When I've never gotten past 1700 on iccup, sure. But C- you mean for Qikz.
On August 18 2014 13:41 puppykiller wrote: Are you really gonna brag about beating someone who just got passed D+ for the first time in a PvT with that bo?
When I've never gotten past 1700 on iccup, sure. But C- you mean for Qikz.
But jokes, man. Qikz and I are cool (I think).
I dunno, if I was Qikz, I would be pretty pissed about losing to the stove He's probably scheming as we speak!
On August 18 2014 13:41 puppykiller wrote: Are you really gonna brag about beating someone who just got passed D+ for the first time in a PvT with that bo?
When I've never gotten past 1700 on iccup, sure. But C- you mean for Qikz.
I couldn't type C- because I had spilled water on my keyboard yesterday and the "c" key wasn't working.
But still like really? Usually people don't like it when you show reps of winning with strats like this. This is the sort of strat you use to shit on someone else. I think that it is pretty BM to post it.
Fair enough, but I didn't see it as a bm build. I was matched up against Qikz, and I knew he usually does drop play. With my practice partners, I was absolutely failing to defend drop play on Aztec, but I remembered this build which is completely wonky and I wanted to throw him off his game with something weird. Dictate the flow of play if you will. (And if I was going to lose, I wanted to lose, failing at the Stove rather than just fizzling out as most of my poor defence vs drop plays were going. Go out in the blaze of glory.)
And it happened to work, and so I thought I'd post a successful game between two relatively even opponents. (I feel like you are approaching this as though I'm some B+ player stomping D newbies or something.) The 'bragging' part was a joke, but if Qikz truly feels I'm bm'ing him, he's free to open double rax proxy in my base or whatever and post that. I guess it could be interpreted as bm, but that was never the intention in selecting it as a strat in the first place.
EPT![[image loading]](http://thecoredump.org/images/stove_new.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6081/chooseprotoss.png)
![[image loading]](http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3529/confidence.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3116/katrina.png)
![[image loading]](http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7920/bluestorm.png)
![[image loading]](http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3502/tight1.png)
![[image loading]](http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6955/tight2.png)
![[image loading]](http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2169/probel.png)
![[image loading]](http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2742/zealot.png)
![[image loading]](http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8117/scvscoutjerk.png)
![[image loading]](http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8859/hiddentech.png)
![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6156/scout.png)
![[image loading]](http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8630/scoutdamage.png)
![[image loading]](http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5479/huntovies.png)
![[image loading]](http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/42/darktemplar.png)
![[image loading]](http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5779/dtsmain.png)
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1138/arbiter.png)
![[image loading]](http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3817/turret.png)
![[image loading]](http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1892/recall.png)
), if the opponent knows what's coming and has seen it before they can deflect it fairly easily. It's a surprise build that relies on the wit of the player executing it 
![[image loading]](http://img188.imageshack.us/i/stovet.jpg/)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/23815.jpg)
