Problem: I,m currently at my parents' house, 2 1/2 month semester break, no internet connection, no SC, I can't improve.
So, I thought of training with SC A.I. (Entropy, Racine Rebel), I usually play melee 1vs2 Protoss, 1vs3 Protoss, and 1vs1 for build practice
Question - Can I improve my game sense and mechanic by playing against A.I.? Because most of the time I,m practically just turtled in my main to defends against the rush. - The rush usually came after 4-5 minutes into the game, consist of dozen of zealot and 5-6 dragoon, playing against this every single day, can it help me defends against cheese by real player? - I usually went 21/ expo, but against the A.I. extremely early DT rush, i usually either go for mines upgrade or ebay first. So, how much of this can help me against the real DT rush? Does the timing I used against the A.I. will be relevant against real player? - 3 A.I usually can be compared with which ICCUP rank? C-? D+? D? or is it nothing compared to even D-?
Other Information - I,m a Terran player. - TvP is my weakest match up - I usually played in Garena, and just recently change to ICCUP. - Nobody in the radius of 25km around my neighbourhood played SC.
For fighting, play campaign, preferably the late bw missions, as you are put in a weaker position than the enemy, and thus you have to build up. Plus, they never give you a decent amount of drones, so work on that too.
I'll give you a list once my seven-day noob period is over.
You could do the practice drill where you play against a computer and just focus on your macro. That will help your macro out. Try to maintain a consistent apm and keep your minerals under a certain number. Once you beat that goal, set the bars higher. Could also work on build orders and that stuff. And if you're bored you could always play those UMS micro maps.
The computer is nothing close to a human player. The timings are totally different. Computers don't do standard builds and they can't think like a human player can. Just play on iccup. If you just played against computers, you're D-.
For fighting, play campaign, preferably the late bw missions, as you are put in a weaker position than the enemy, and thus you have to build up. Plus, they never give you a decent amount of drones, so work on that too.
Yeah, i usually train with that too. I,m trying too kept playing under pressure so that I can withstand cheese and rush from real player in the future.
Try to maintain a consistent apm and keep your minerals under a certain number.
Well, the thing is, it was really hard for me to keep the minerals under 300 when playing a handicap match, the rush only stop for less then a 30-ish seconds, and when it come, I need to focus on my unit micro.
I once tried going for 2 racks, 3 bunkers at nat with SCV constantly repairing it, I managed to succesfully defend against all the rush but somehow it make me worried that doing such a weird build will mess up my game sense.
I usually go either for strong FD, 5-fact or Flash build but only 5 fact build work against the constant rush.
The computer is nothing close to a human player. The timings are totally different. Computers don't do standard builds and they can't think like a human player can. Just play on iccup. If you just played against computers, you're D-.
Well, i,m aware of that but you see, I can't play on ICCUP without Internet connection, no matter how much i wanted too.
So, I,m training with the A.I. to improve my basic (Macro,micro,hotkeys,low mineral,build order)
and I thought Entropy A.I. is good enough for basic training since it used the exact build, or am i wrong?
A good way to build your multitask to is to do worker harass with your scouting worker for 1v3, go up to one of their probes and they'll all hop off the worker lines and chase you around, you can basically take out one computer this way but you'll sacrifice a considerable amount of your attention and apm.
On June 03 2009 10:29 genryou wrote: First of all, thanks for reading this.
Problem: I,m currently at my parents' house, 2 1/2 month semester break, no internet connection, no SC, I can't improve.
So, I thought of training with SC A.I. (Entropy, Racine Rebel), I usually play melee 1vs2 Protoss, 1vs3 Protoss, and 1vs1 for build practice
Question - Can I improve my game sense and mechanic by playing against A.I.? Because most of the time I,m practically just turtled in my main to defends against the rush. - The rush usually came after 4-5 minutes into the game, consist of dozen of zealot and 5-6 dragoon, playing against this every single day, can it help me defends against cheese by real player? - I usually went 21/ expo, but against the A.I. extremely early DT rush, i usually either go for mines upgrade or ebay first. So, how much of this can help me against the real DT rush? Does the timing I used against the A.I. will be relevant against real player? - 3 A.I usually can be compared with which ICCUP rank? C-? D+? D? or is it nothing compared to even D-?
Other Information - I,m a Terran player. - TvP is my weakest match up - I usually played in Garena, and just recently change to ICCUP. - Nobody in the radius of 25km around my neighbourhood played SC.
Usually, playing vs bot is a bad idea. The only thing you can improve by doing it is to get familiar with using hotkeys and macro.
Bots a below D-. They always do the same thing, don't macro, don't micro, build stuff in random locations and are extremely stupid. All they can do is to attack you with 12 zealots. They can't even DT rush properly.
Playing against any of the AI's is good, and then just continue to add the AI's to get better. Start with one, and when you start winning 1v3 with mnm only you know that you're the next boxer ^^ more seriously though, I think that's the best kind of training that you're going to be able to get without a practice partner
Usually, playing vs bot is a bad idea. The only thing you can improve by doing it is to get familiar with using hotkeys and macro.
Haha, its okay because for me improving my basic is the most important atm, it just that I,m worried whether practicing with A.I. can help me against real player at all.
Anyway, after creating this topic, I no longer have doubt, I,ll just keep training with Entropy.
when you start winning 1v3 with mnm only you know that you're the next boxer
I do this alot anyway cause the internet where i stay is laggy during the day (too many people )
Watch reps, learn build timings for builds, learn to adapt your builds. Learn new builds. play in chaos so you get that clock during games and can learn and write down timings. Can you block rushes at different points?
Look for some good micro maps. There's a really cool defiler zvt micro map that simulates late game zvt pretty well. You have to macro off 3-4 bases, and kill setups of T units. There's a harder version where you'll even get countered alot.
Depending on how much you know about the matchups, you can just simulate what would be going on at certain points in the game. I used to play ZvT against the computer and run through a typical ZvT. It can actually help alot with multitasking while mutaing, and constantly leapfrogging lurkers back and forth.
For TvP, you would benefit alot from just drilling BOs a ton, and practicing pushing correctly. Micro maps would help a lot for TvZ
The only other thing I can think of is using reps to find of certain attacks, like dt drop after expo, reaver before expo etc. And practicing your build orders to deflect those in time.
Search around for some good micro maps for Terran, I know I had a few that were pretty fun. There's a ton of stuff you can do to make yourself better at SC without being able to play other people, it's just stuff that gets kinda boring after a while.
On June 03 2009 11:13 T.O.P. wrote: The computer is nothing close to a human player. The timings are totally different. Computers don't do standard builds and they can't think like a human player can. Just play on iccup. If you just played against computers, you're D-.
On June 04 2009 06:04 kemoryan wrote: GJ posting without reading OP.
Hmm, I really don't know what I did wrong.
On June 03 2009 10:29 genryou wrote: Question - Can I improve my game sense and mechanic by playing against A.I.? Because most of the time I,m practically just turtled in my main to defends against the rush.
"The computer is nothing close to a human player. The timings are totally different."
On June 03 2009 10:29 genryou wrote: - The rush usually came after 4-5 minutes into the game, consist of dozen of zealot and 5-6 dragoon,
"Computers don't do standard builds and they can't think like a human player can"
On June 03 2009 10:29 genryou wrote: - 3 A.I usually can be compared with which ICCUP rank? C-? D+? D? or is it nothing compared to even D-?
"If you just played against computers, you're D-."
On June 03 2009 11:13 T.O.P. wrote: Just play on iccup.
I meant that if he wanted to improve, he has to play on iccup.
To gain enough from playing computers to actually improve would be so strenuous and mind numbing that I doubt you capable of it.
I would think 4-5 hours daily of 1v3 with double race combos on modern maps with 30 to 45 minutes of micro practice would definately put you into the C- ranking.
and that only holds true if your maintaining at least 250-300 apm with 110-130 eapm, if your not then the mechanical skill you would learn doesn't count anyway.
The payoff behind even 5 days a week of this (25 hours a week) would be alot less then getting a shitty job or educational non-fiction. I mean seriously you could learn a language or advanced mathamatics or really anything else you would like in that same time. TBH by the end of the summer instead of playing 'practice games against comps' you could have written a short novel.
I think just playing with the computer to keep loose and enjoy the game is fine if it suits you but doing it to improve sounds so terrible. At least against real opponenets there is the dramatic tenson and fun from competing against a computer do you really care if you lose... I mean really?
I recently loaded up single player 3protoss vs my zerg on othello, I played it 6 times, lost 5 of them making 3 hat lings into muta while avoiding sunkens, each time I lost I just laughed and tried to pull it off the same way again.
Use BW Ahzz AI. It imitates pro B.O.s. pretty well and even micros a little. Yes, it cheats, but up until the very late game where every base is mined out, it's great practice. Use it for Army vs Army training.
On June 04 2009 06:04 kemoryan wrote: GJ posting without reading OP.
Hmm, I really don't know what I did wrong
On June 03 2009 10:29 genryou wrote: Problem: I,m currently at my parents' house, 2 1/2 month semester break, no internet connection, no SC, I can't improve.
when I don't feel like playing online (especially if I don't think I have time for a long game) I like to pick a random 3 or 4 player map and just hit go - so myself and two or three cpus, all random races - and practice keeping my apm up and resources down. a lot of standard BOs do quite poorly against the zealot rush, but I'm ok with not practicing a BO and just focusing on macro and hotkeys. I do think it's helped with those, and it's nice to be able to focus on them without the pressure of thinking about what a human opponent is up to.
and before someone quotes AttackZerg at me, I don't do this a lot, and certainly don't consider it practice - more than anything I use it to warm up when I haven't played for a while, or sometimes when I feel like playing a game but only have a few minutes.
hopefully my post helps. I have found myself in your shoes, but not as bad. I had weekends to play online and weekdays i had no internet for games. Although i had no practice, i played extremely well in the lan i attended without playing a serious game in 3-4 days. This is what i did:
I watched replays. Learning what could have been done and when.
I played a game against the computer where i sent 2 souting probes, 1 to his base and 1 to a neutral base. The one in his base was to make sure i didnt die to something stupid, and the other was for scouting probe practice. I would mine a mineral and go to my base continue my BO. Then I would mine another mineral before it mined 1 mineral. When I could finish this task and do my BO without making a mistake with my probe, i played for real. I hardly lost my scouting probe and was able to know mwhat my opponent was doing. i.e. 2fac or 1 fac star or 1 fac expo.
from here i would work on my apm and hold it over 150 (yes thats low but thats what i did.) when the lan came around i had 170 apm, 60 actions more a minute than before.
i think playing against the default AI isn't so bad when you're still trying to work on your macro etc...but playing against such an AI will never do you any justice once you have OK macro.
check out this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50034 and look for BW AI Project...i recommend the ZBATH AI. it's definitely beatable, and it'll surely get your macro/micro to sharpen up. only problem is you need to be able to wall off at your nat in maps like medusa/python/colloseum etc (i was never able to win in non-wall-able maps) but then again i'm not a very good player
i just realized all this info i have just given is useles cause you have no net to download the AI pack T_T
The Broodwars AI is definitely good for practicing your macro. I think the hardest AI gets 2000 every few minutes, and if you fall behind you might get rolled (especially in PvT where it just streams tanks towards your base). However on some maps you might find the AI is useless, e.g. Destination, sometimes the cpu builds its command center/nexsus at its choke where the mineral blocks the ramp (in some cases terran building placement blocks its own units from exiting the base). On other maps cpu units might get stuck due to a blocked path (like mineral lines). So I guess that's the downfall. On maps like python *gasp* it works fine.
I don't think that practicing against any computer, even upgraded AIs will do you any good. However, they are definitely a step up from the vanilla AI, so I would recommend getting SC, a ton of replays, and the good AIs onto a thumbdrive (or an equivalent), and just watching timings, build orders, and keep practicing against the AI. If you're a lower level player, the mechanical training will really help. Practicing against an AI is not a substitute for ICcup, but it will keep your skills intact at the very least.
Practicing BO-s against the AI is limited at best.
The default AI normally goes for a (quite powerful) rush / early mid-game push, and you have to consider this when choosing a buildorder. (The AI isn't good enough to kill you with this push, and you'll win in endgame - but it'll still mess up your build.)
On June 04 2009 21:10 hyde wrote: However on some maps you might find the AI is useless, e.g. Destination, sometimes the cpu builds its command center/nexsus at its choke where the mineral blocks the ramp (in some cases terran building placement blocks its own units from exiting the base). On other maps cpu units might get stuck due to a blocked path (like mineral lines). So I guess that's the downfall. On maps like python *gasp* it works fine.
This is a huge problem, since many maps have something that messes with pathing. Maybe it'd be better just to practice build orders and just ignore the comp. Like, lure the AI's workers away with your scout while working on the build order while not losing your scout.
Or just play vs the AI for fun, but don't expect much.
But they are working on something that will make the AI much stronger than the stock AI or the custom ones. http://code.google.com/p/bwapi/ has an AI that can macro and micro better. You can check out the demo rep. It currently has no real strategy yet, but you will see a big difference from what we have now. It will obviously never replace a human player, but it might actually be useful for once if you have no internet. It unfortunately won't be out by the time OP goes to his parent's house, but maybe in the future...
think just playing with the computer to keep loose and enjoy the game is fine if it suits you but doing it to improve sounds so terrible. At least against real opponenets there is the dramatic tenson and fun from competing against a computer do you really care if you lose... I mean really?
haha, yeah indeed i lose alot in 1 vs 3 but my goal is to improve my basic in somehow extreme situation.
so, i thought that if i can manage the endless rush from the A.I. and still having low econ and manage my macro, i guess i can somehow manage against the rush from real player.
I usually use Entropy for macro and micro practice, Ahzz for vs Zerg practice and Racine Rebel for crazy fun.
good to see malaysian sc player here, lol. which uni u are studying at ?
sup, i,m currently studying at UTM KL. sadly, among 1000+ students, only 2 of them played SC, while 70% of the total students played Dota.
However on some maps you might find the AI is useless, e.g. Destination, sometimes the cpu builds its command center/nexsus at its choke where the mineral blocks the ramp (in some cases terran building placement blocks its own units from exiting the base).
yeah, thats why i usually practice on Colloseum map, the A.I expand and push properly, i once tried to play the A.I on the Return Of The King map, but the A.I. somehow became dumb and barely expo and rush with only 4-5 zeal.
http://code.google.com/p/bwapi/ has an AI that can macro and micro better. You can check out the demo rep.
wow, thats news to me. i hope the A.I. will be somewhat stronger than Entropy.
btw, most people doesnt really agree with the idea of playing with an A.I., but i think it really help me to defend against the rush from real player.I only have 7 games experience on ICCUP, and all of it consist of cheese rush from the opponent.
so i thought that if i can played flawlessly vs 3 A.I., not only i can improve my basic but perhaps i can be immune to cheese.
Before I started playing ICC, I played against Racine, Rama, and two ums comps (7th clan and insane Z) You can definately improved your mechanics using these maps. I rarely ever played bnet and usually just played these ai games. I got to D+ easily when I did start playing ICC. You can learn mechanics somewhat but Game sense not so much as you don't even need to scout comp after a while. I learned basic adaptations from watching pro VODs. If you only play vs these comps, you have to play micro maps as well.
Also, when playing vs these computers, you have to play super greedy economically to learn some defense. Obviously defending against the first zeal goon push with a 2fac expo into 5fac turtle is easy. So play greedy and try to defend with minimal units (play 1fac expo into 2fac ->3rd base or something like that).
DT rush from a real player will come faster but timings are somewhat similar.
Rama- D/D- 7th/Insane Z - D Racine- D+ , <-- My favorite and I still play vs it occasionally ZBath = Imba
I got to D+ with Terran on ICCUP easily after playing these.
Certain AIs work better in certain matchups. None are that good for TvT or ZvZ
Rama is decent for- PvZ, TvZ, TvP, ZvP, ZvT Racine good for- PvZ, ZvP, TvP, ZvT, PvP, PvT 7th (protoss comp)- Good for all vs P matchups (TvP, ZvP, PvP) Insane Z (Z comp)- TvZ, PvZ
Bad to play: Rama- PvT (Terran goes bio but if you want to learn how to storm its ok) Racine- TvZ (Zergs does some weird shit here. It isn't too bad but it doesn't really allow for standard TvZ)
My choices by matchup: TvZ- Rama- if you are a D Terran or lower, this will be alot of fun. If you are bored and feel like playing vs weird comp, Racine is ok. TvP- 7th Clan or Racine- 7th clan Comp can be very annoying the first times you play it. Once you learn all the tricks and this becomes boring, play vs Racine. TvT- Racine- If you really have to play this play use Racine. I never do though
PvZ- Rama- Decently fun. Racine makes you learn some nonstandard play in the early/mid so I recommend Rama. If rama gets boring switch over. PvT- Racine- Only one I found where Terran goes Mech. PvP- Racine- Decent i think.
ZvT- Play Rama and switch to Racine once you can beat it easily. ZvP- Same as ZvT ZvZ- None. You can't practice this mu with these.
Order of difficulty; Rama, Insane Z, 7th, Racine
Once you learn the tricks of Z and 7th, they are easiest.
So ya, I really enjoyed playing vs these and I hope you do as well. The bwai can be downloaded Here Under Bw AI
On June 04 2009 02:32 sixghost wrote: Look for some good micro maps. There's a really cool defiler zvt micro map that simulates late game zvt pretty well. You have to macro off 3-4 bases, and kill setups of T units. There's a harder version where you'll even get countered alot.
whoa whoa dude I've been looking for a map like this. can you tell me the name or upload the map?
If you play too much vs a computer your builds will be out of whack, example may be you don't need an engineering bay in TvZ but you cant live without one vs a player. So what I would do is constantly practice my build orders. Memorize like 5 different build orders down to the food count.
On June 04 2009 02:32 sixghost wrote: Look for some good micro maps. There's a really cool defiler zvt micro map that simulates late game zvt pretty well. You have to macro off 3-4 bases, and kill setups of T units. There's a harder version where you'll even get countered alot.
whoa whoa dude I've been looking for a map like this. can you tell me the name or upload the map?
If this is the right one (I think it is) it took me like about 30 tries to beat it within the time frame. Doing this is very hard.
edit: AND FUCKING FUN.
If you play zerg and take this map seriously you will improve 100%. This and the recent mutalisk maps (vs scourge and marines) can 100% improve your play!
EPT
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