On April 25 2009 05:06 Chill wrote: I disagree with the majority of your positions. Ring on 1 and pinky on a seems incredible jammed, especially if you are trying to line up middle and index as well.
Also, refering to it as your "retard" finger surely kills a lot of your credibility.
Oh it is jammed. And it takes time to get used. But I think it's fastest.
How do you 1a2a3a? I'm not sure if it's the best way. And I'd like to learn.
Edit:
copy paste, fine retard, replace w/ ring...
how many credibility points do i get? 100k? ??????
oh yeah, you kill your credibility by using passive sentences. Surely. And I am kidding. And I am really interested in you explaining why your 1a2a3a is faster. As you are a better player than me (though that doesn't neccesarily mean a better hker) And if you disagree with the majority of my positions, explain why you disagree with them!
On April 24 2009 16:02 Oystein wrote: I don`t do anything similar to the way you do it.... I never use F keys or ALT either, and I do scroll all the time. In fact im pretty much doing the opposite of what your suggesting all the time
i'm glad someone better said this first .
I didn't want to discourage people from reading this guide, but I did try using the F keys and avoid scrolling and I just can't adjust. And I never use my pinky, not even for the ctrl key. If I do use the pinky on ctrl I end up hitting caps lock with my ring finger
On April 25 2009 05:06 Chill wrote: I disagree with the majority of your positions. Ring on 1 and pinky on a seems incredible jammed, especially if you are trying to line up middle and index as well.
Also, refering to it as your "retard" finger surely kills a lot of your credibility.
I actually think its good. In the beginning, it might seem jammed, but try to slant your wrist abit to the left while doing it and it will soon come naturally and the handmovement and fingerswitchment(totally awesome word) is less complex than other handstances and can go with ease from 1-8.
There are other handstances that are better in terms of only using 1a2a but if you want one that is good for 1a2a3a4a++ I think this is the best option. 1a 2a is the most uncomfortable move with this handstance but it will come naturally after a while and if you get that down you can get faster and faster.
The retardissue I think is actually pretty funny, that finger is so stupid sometimes. Specially if you put your hand on the table with palm down and slant your longfinger underneath the palm so that the first joint above the knuckles is touching the table and then try to raise the remaining fingers upwards. All fingers will respond except the reatardfinger, because it never does what you tell it to do anyway.
Although you're correct that it might kill some credibility^^
Anyway, this is my point of view about the 1a2a3a4a matter. I have not read the rest of it so there might be alot of things I disagree with aswell but I tend not to get too mixed up with the other races.
On April 24 2009 16:02 Oystein wrote: I don`t do anything similar to the way you do it.... I never use F keys or ALT either, and I do scroll all the time. In fact im pretty much doing the opposite of what your suggesting all the time
i'm glad someone better said this first .
I didn't want to discourage people from reading this guide, but I did try using the F keys and avoid scrolling and I just can't adjust. And I never use my pinky, not even for the ctrl key. If I do use the pinky on ctrl I end up hitting caps lock with my ring finger
This doesn't change the fact that its better to use less complex and easier moves. If you practice something long enough its hard to change the way you do it, but that doesn't mean that the way your doing it is the best possible way. Sure you can play without using things like these aswell as you can play without using hotkeys at all, but if you master all the help you can get from hotkeys it will immensly improve your play.
So you never should discourage people from using hotkeys to your advantage, even if they sometimes take time to master.
F keys are so useful. I used to not use them but it took a while to practice on the computer to finally get it to be comfortable.
I used to do 4 click probe 5 click probe to make probes at my main and my natural, but the problem with this is that even if I made the probe, I neglected to actually go to the natural expansion screen to tell the newly built probes to start mining since I'd have to use my mouse to go to the minimap, precisely (hard) click on the natural expansion, then move my mouse back on to the screen to tell probes to mine, and that would take so much time. There are also other problems such as slow maynarding times, slow dodging if some guy drops your natural, no gateway hotkeys since 4,5 would be taken, 6 was taken by robo, 7 8 9 0 were too far...
I saw some Bisu fpvod and I realized he uses F keys for his expansions and he doesn't even hotkey any other nexuses other than the main (4). What he does is do 4p then F key to some natural or some other expo, click the nexus and press p. This was really hard to get used to but eventually, with a lot of practice against computers, it just felt a lot smoother. Your mouse is always on the screen so you move your right hand a bit less, but this also forces you to actually move your screen to your main and natural expansions from time to time. And since you already have F keys set up it's easier to maynard workers and dodge harass. Now that I don't use hotkeys 5 or 6 for nexuses I use them for gateways instead. I know stork's rallying method is to do control 5 6 7 8 9 sometimes 0 (stork uses 0 for robo) for 5/6 different gateways then do 5 right click 6 right click etc. on the ground somewhere else. Using F keys instead of hotkeys for my expansions allow me to do that, and now I actually use all 10 hotkeys.
On April 24 2009 16:02 Oystein wrote: I don`t do anything similar to the way you do it.... I never use F keys or ALT either, and I do scroll all the time. In fact im pretty much doing the opposite of what your suggesting all the time
i'm glad someone better said this first .
I didn't want to discourage people from reading this guide, but I did try using the F keys and avoid scrolling and I just can't adjust. And I never use my pinky, not even for the ctrl key. If I do use the pinky on ctrl I end up hitting caps lock with my ring finger
You need to use your pinky. And you need to use the fkeys. Honestly, I think Oystein is a fucking prodigy. And can go MASSIVELY UP in skill to absolute top foriegner if he does as he says.
And chill, I really want to hear how you 1a2a3a4a. And also how you disagree with my other postions. I've been thinking about hks for awhile, and mechanics in general, and I really want to know.
On April 26 2009 00:48 Kentor wrote: F keys are so useful. I used to not use them but it took a while to practice on the computer to finally get it to be comfortable.
I used to do 4 click probe 5 click probe to make probes at my main and my natural, but the problem with this is that even if I made the probe, I neglected to actually go to the natural expansion screen to tell the newly built probes to start mining since I'd have to use my mouse to go to the minimap, precisely (hard) click on the natural expansion, then move my mouse back on to the screen to tell probes to mine, and that would take so much time. There are also other problems such as slow maynarding times, slow dodging if some guy drops your natural, no gateway hotkeys since 4,5 would be taken, 6 was taken by robo, 7 8 9 0 were too far...
I saw some Bisu fpvod and I realized he uses F keys for his expansions and he doesn't even hotkey any other nexuses other than the main (4). What he does is do 4p then F key to some natural or some other expo, click the nexus and press p. This was really hard to get used to but eventually, with a lot of practice against computers, it just felt a lot smoother. Your mouse is always on the screen so you move your right hand a bit less, but this also forces you to actually move your screen to your main and natural expansions from time to time. And since you already have F keys set up it's easier to maynard workers and dodge harass. Now that I don't use hotkeys 5 or 6 for nexuses I use them for gateways instead. I know stork's rallying method is to do control 5 6 7 8 9 sometimes 0 (stork uses 0 for robo) for 5/6 different gateways then do 5 right click 6 right click etc. on the ground somewhere else. Using F keys instead of hotkeys for my expansions allow me to do that, and now I actually use all 10 hotkeys.
I am debating to change my probe production like Bisu too. How long exactly did it take you? I seem to be making almost no progress whatsoever although sometimes I can feel the smoothness and awsomeness of using F keys
On April 26 2009 00:48 Kentor wrote: F keys are so useful. I used to not use them but it took a while to practice on the computer to finally get it to be comfortable.
I used to do 4 click probe 5 click probe to make probes at my main and my natural, but the problem with this is that even if I made the probe, I neglected to actually go to the natural expansion screen to tell the newly built probes to start mining since I'd have to use my mouse to go to the minimap, precisely (hard) click on the natural expansion, then move my mouse back on to the screen to tell probes to mine, and that would take so much time. There are also other problems such as slow maynarding times, slow dodging if some guy drops your natural, no gateway hotkeys since 4,5 would be taken, 6 was taken by robo, 7 8 9 0 were too far...
I saw some Bisu fpvod and I realized he uses F keys for his expansions and he doesn't even hotkey any other nexuses other than the main (4). What he does is do 4p then F key to some natural or some other expo, click the nexus and press p. This was really hard to get used to but eventually, with a lot of practice against computers, it just felt a lot smoother. Your mouse is always on the screen so you move your right hand a bit less, but this also forces you to actually move your screen to your main and natural expansions from time to time. And since you already have F keys set up it's easier to maynard workers and dodge harass. Now that I don't use hotkeys 5 or 6 for nexuses I use them for gateways instead. I know stork's rallying method is to do control 5 6 7 8 9 sometimes 0 (stork uses 0 for robo) for 5/6 different gateways then do 5 right click 6 right click etc. on the ground somewhere else. Using F keys instead of hotkeys for my expansions allow me to do that, and now I actually use all 10 hotkeys.
I am debating to change my probe production like Bisu too. How long exactly did it take you? I seem to be making almost no progress whatsoever although sometimes I can feel the smoothness and awsomeness of using F keys
Can someone second the Bisu thing? Or at least link me a video of him doing it? I don't watch FPvods.
But... it seems like something worth putting 50 or so games into to try out
Hmmm. Let me get out my keyboard...
So what would be? Pinky on fkeys, pointer on p? Thumb would still be able to stick on alt. And its faster down from the fkeys to macro position than from my "econ" position... Easier to build gateways too. Left side of the keyboard is easier to get too...
Nearly everything is faster. But not probes 0p9p is faster than f2 click p. Could you compensate by starting probe 2 faster.... probes are the most important unit in the game... I'm definitely going to try this out though.Now that I understand it a bit better.
On April 26 2009 00:48 Kentor wrote: F keys are so useful. I used to not use them but it took a while to practice on the computer to finally get it to be comfortable.
I used to do 4 click probe 5 click probe to make probes at my main and my natural, but the problem with this is that even if I made the probe, I neglected to actually go to the natural expansion screen to tell the newly built probes to start mining since I'd have to use my mouse to go to the minimap, precisely (hard) click on the natural expansion, then move my mouse back on to the screen to tell probes to mine, and that would take so much time. There are also other problems such as slow maynarding times, slow dodging if some guy drops your natural, no gateway hotkeys since 4,5 would be taken, 6 was taken by robo, 7 8 9 0 were too far...
I saw some Bisu fpvod and I realized he uses F keys for his expansions and he doesn't even hotkey any other nexuses other than the main (4). What he does is do 4p then F key to some natural or some other expo, click the nexus and press p. This was really hard to get used to but eventually, with a lot of practice against computers, it just felt a lot smoother. Your mouse is always on the screen so you move your right hand a bit less, but this also forces you to actually move your screen to your main and natural expansions from time to time. And since you already have F keys set up it's easier to maynard workers and dodge harass. Now that I don't use hotkeys 5 or 6 for nexuses I use them for gateways instead. I know stork's rallying method is to do control 5 6 7 8 9 sometimes 0 (stork uses 0 for robo) for 5/6 different gateways then do 5 right click 6 right click etc. on the ground somewhere else. Using F keys instead of hotkeys for my expansions allow me to do that, and now I actually use all 10 hotkeys.
I am debating to change my probe production like Bisu too. How long exactly did it take you? I seem to be making almost no progress whatsoever although sometimes I can feel the smoothness and awsomeness of using F keys
Can someone second the Bisu thing? Or at least link me a video of him doing it? I don't watch FPvods.
But... it seems like something worth putting 50 or so games into to try out
Hmmm. Let me get out my keyboard...
So what would be? Pinky on fkeys, pointer on p? Thumb would still be able to stick on alt. And its faster down from the fkeys to macro position than from my "econ" position... Easier to build gateways too. Left side of the keyboard is easier to get too...
Nearly everything is faster. But not probes 0p9p is faster than f2 click p. Could you compensate by starting probe 2 faster.... probes are the most important unit in the game... I'm definitely going to try this out though.Now that I understand it a bit better.
at ~6:57 he does it very quickly and every time he makes a probe in the natural after that he does it. you can tell since he always click on the nexus and sets a rally point probably with a right click. also if you look at his replays he doesn't have hotkeys for any nexuses other than his main.
anyway i don't know which F key Bisu actually uses for his natural. but the way I do it is I use my middle finger for F2 and I do 4 (index) p (index) f2 (middle) click nexus, p (index) then go back to home position. Yeah there is the back and forth motion but it forces your hand to move around which is good i think!
Edit: Okay and I use F2 not because it's just F2 but because my middle finger is only a stretch away from that key when I'm at resting position (index at 4). I think that's what I was thinking. Also my second expansion would be F3 using my index finger which feels pretty natural as well.
Also try avoid using your pinky to hit the F keys after your index is already on P. I did this when I tried it out the first time but it felt very unnatural and less accurate, and it brings your hand out of position. Now I just do the back and forth thing mentioned above, and start the probes a little earlier. It took about maybe a week or more trying this out in single player and I dunno, it just feels pretty good now :D
On April 25 2009 05:06 Chill wrote: I disagree with the majority of your positions. Ring on 1 and pinky on a seems incredible jammed, especially if you are trying to line up middle and index as well.
Also, refering to it as your "retard" finger surely kills a lot of your credibility.
Oh it is jammed. And it takes time to get used. But I think it's fastest.
How do you 1a2a3a? I'm not sure if it's the best way. And I'd like to learn.
Edit:
copy paste, fine retard, replace w/ ring...
how many credibility points do i get? 100k? ??????
oh yeah, you kill your credibility by using passive sentences. Surely. And I am kidding. And I am really interested in you explaining why your 1a2a3a is faster. As you are a better player than me (though that doesn't neccesarily mean a better hker) And if you disagree with the majority of my positions, explain why you disagree with them!
All your stances have your hand contorted in strange positions. It may be the most efficient way to perform that one task, but curling your hand into that position every time you want to 1a2a3a is going to be very inefficient and cause a lot of errors.
(1) Middle (a) Ring (2) Middle (a) Ring (3) Middle/Index (a) Ring (4) Middle/Index (a) Pinky/Ring
This allows you to leave your hand perfectly flat. It may be slightly slower than your stance, but I don't have to twist my wrist around to tuck my pinky down to a - a huge plus.
Similarly look how you have your economy stance set up. I either need to curl my thumb around to rest my knuckle on alt, or twist my wrist (in the other direction from before) to get my thumb there.
(8) Ring (p) Index (9) Ring/Middle (p) Index (9) Middle (p) Index
This allowed you to again leave your hand flat. Further, you are rarely going to be doing 8p9p0p, so there's no point in making a stance that designs your hand to fit on 89 and 0 simulataneously. Ring/Middle on 90 is good enough and leaves your hand flat.
Your macro stance is fine.
(4) Middle (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (5) Middle (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (6) Index (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (7) Index (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index
The key theme of your guide is to keep your thumb on alt all game, but you never explain why. Alt is rarely used in StarCraft, nevermind right alt. Why is it so pivotal to keep my thumb here? Trying to 1a2a3a while having my thumb stretched out like this tenses my fingers and makes them slower. I see no advantage to stretching my hand out while trying to do this.
Further, many of your stances have the key finger being the pinky, and the ring being important as well. These fingers are closely connected and are the least mobile of your fingers. Try to move your ring quickly without moving your pinky. It's awkard. Your stances should center on middle and index, with the ring used when necessary.
Keeping your handle in a natural, flattened position will help you much more than memorizing these stances that require awkward twists.
On April 25 2009 05:06 Chill wrote: I disagree with the majority of your positions. Ring on 1 and pinky on a seems incredible jammed, especially if you are trying to line up middle and index as well.
Also, refering to it as your "retard" finger surely kills a lot of your credibility.
Oh it is jammed. And it takes time to get used. But I think it's fastest.
How do you 1a2a3a? I'm not sure if it's the best way. And I'd like to learn.
Edit:
copy paste, fine retard, replace w/ ring...
how many credibility points do i get? 100k? ??????
oh yeah, you kill your credibility by using passive sentences. Surely. And I am kidding. And I am really interested in you explaining why your 1a2a3a is faster. As you are a better player than me (though that doesn't neccesarily mean a better hker) And if you disagree with the majority of my positions, explain why you disagree with them!
All your stances have your hand contorted in strange positions. It may be the most efficient way to perform that one task, but curling your hand into that position every time you want to 1a2a3a is going to be very inefficient and cause a lot of errors.
(1) Middle (a) Ring (2) Middle (a) Ring (3) Middle/Index (a) Ring (4) Middle/Index (a) Pinky/Ring
This allows you to leave your hand perfectly flat. It may be slightly slower than your stance, but I don't have to twist my wrist around to tuck my pinky down to a - a huge plus.
Similarly look how you have your economy stance set up. I either need to curl my thumb around to rest my knuckle on alt, or twist my wrist (in the other direction from before) to get my thumb there.
(8) Ring (p) Index (9) Ring/Middle (p) Index (9) Middle (p) Index
This allowed you to again leave your hand flat. Further, you are rarely going to be doing 8p9p0p, so there's no point in making a stance that designs your hand to fit on 89 and 0 simulataneously. Ring/Middle on 90 is good enough and leaves your hand flat.
Your macro stance is fine.
(4) Middle (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (5) Middle (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (6) Index (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index (7) Index (z/d/t) pinky/ring/index
The key theme of your guide is to keep your thumb on alt all game, but you never explain why. Alt is rarely used in StarCraft, nevermind right alt. Why is it so pivotal to keep my thumb here? Trying to 1a2a3a while having my thumb stretched out like this tenses my fingers and makes them slower. I see no advantage to stretching my hand out while trying to do this.
Further, many of your stances have the key finger being the pinky, and the ring being important as well. These fingers are closely connected and are the least mobile of your fingers. Try to move your ring quickly without moving your pinky. It's awkard. Your stances should center on middle and index, with the ring used when necessary.
Keeping your handle in a natural, flattened position will help you much more than memorizing these stances that require awkward twists.
Thanks for the response. I understand you better now.
1) on 1a2a3a. I wonder. Do Zerg's have anything like pinky on d, ring on 4, middle on 5, pointer on 6 to mass goons? This is the same position as 1a2a3a, but a slightly smaller wrist angle. I would argue that my way is better, and equally accurate, after you practice it. And, after all, if you weren't willing to play worse now to get better later, you'd still be mouse onlying?
2) on economy. I completely and utterly disagree with you on this. First, you 0p9p8p constantly. Have you ever played PVT? You'll almost always get 3 expos, and you'll always hk them. Same for PVZ when you fast expo. Or do you mean you'll never 0p9p8p? You'll do that tons. And when you won't, you'll 0 hmm already probes, 9, yeah it needs one, 8, yeah you too.
Plus, it's not just for probe macro. You hk your scout to 8, and your rush units to 8. So early game AND late game it's useful.
But thumb dexterity? WTF. You don't play video games?! (kidding). If you're uncomfortable stretching to alt, how the heck to do you reach ctrl? Again, I think you're taking the easy way out. Not trying something different because something is more comfortable for you now.
3) On ALT. I explained by why alt was important. In brief, it's faster than double tapping. And your right thumb is almost always there. Or at least after a bit of training it can be without any difficult. So because it's faster than double tapping, why NOT do it. Plus it's a good pivot. And helps you find your stances. for 1a2a3a... that's a stretch. I just want your thumb near it so when you move back to macro or econ you slide it back naturally. I might've worded that a bit incorrectly.
Awkward stance? Awkward is pinky on b ring on g. Learn how to power clean, or do some wrist stretches... or something, because there's nothing inherently awkward about my stances. I think you're just haivng beginner's trouble.
or... just as possibly maybe our keyboards are different, or our hands are different.... hmmm how put your thumb on ctrl and reach left as far as you can with your pinky. What's the last number key you can hit easily (like you would go hmmm my hand is on the right side and I gotta hk some zerglings lets do it!), and what's the last key you can hit PERIOD.
Oh yeah, tip for being able to hit 1a2a3a fast like I said; make most of your passwords Qwe1Qwe1 :-)
EPT
