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On April 08 2009 13:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
what exactly does "disrupting the sim city of their builds" mean?
i thought "sim city" was just a cute label for when a player is careful to place their buildings effectively
I thought sim city was when you just focus on making a base and not actually have any strategy or competitive play. I think Tetris base is more like what you're talking about.
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ummmmmmmmmmmm what sim city is a term for placing buildings effectively
my kor friend also calls it simcity
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FE for protoss is a good example of sim city. The less probes you need to block the runby the better the simcity. Its just maximizing the effectiveness of the buildings. Gateways are used as a block, and for zealots. Forges for upgrades build cannons behind them. guard the area where probes or ramp is susceptible to zerg runby.
Or building a semi wall for terran using barracks supplies and factories. So zealots can't get the marine.
Whats tetris base?
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when i was talking about sim city i was referring to all of the exact probe and mineral / gas timings that the the fantasy build, protoss FE and all of that go buy. I figured that with some early game pressure or some aggression that you could screw this up and slow them down, and make them waste resources defending them selves. However everyone seems to think that this idea is idiotic, and i guess that is the general consensus. No use arguing with 4+ SC players that are better than me. My bad- i guess when you explain it like that, zerg simply cannot do anything early game unless it is an all in type of play.
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On April 08 2009 09:10 Zozma wrote:
I've read it explained like this:
The reason Terran and Protoss continue building workers is not to mine the base they have optimally, but to quickly maynard and gain the benefit from other bases they take.
Zerg players should just build as many drones as they need, and then use the hatcheries to build more drones when they take expansions.
Exactly. Worker saturation? Not a problem if you look at it from this point of view. When you start running out of gas after building mutas and lurks (tech switching), you need to be drone whoring at the bases you already have, while waiting on new expansions to come online. For example, you're expanding to your third sometime around the time mutas or lurks are coming out (even earlier if you didnt have to sunken whore), and after you make your first harassment army (9 muta), you set the rally point of your 3 hatches to the 3rd base, and pump drones to it. This saturates your 3rd much faster than building up a drone line from your 3rd base's hatchery alone (Just like when your main pumps drones to your natural, early game).
Stop ling whoring from all your hats when your gas runs out. Drone whore instead. If you can't use those lings that you're building right away (assault on their nat maybe?), building those lings were a waste. They could have been drones instead.
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There are a few points.
* As a mineral field is close to saturated, the marginal value of adding workers decreases. When mineral fields are fully saturated, adding workers adds no value.
* New mineral fields are farthest from saturated. They need an influx of many workers as soon as possible.
* When not enough army is produced, loss usually occurs.
* As a Zerg player, it's hard to keep track of how many drones were made.
Point #1 makes it not THAT important to add drones continuously after a certain threshold. Point #2 makes it helpful to whore drones immediately after an expansion goes up so you can immediately fill it. Terrans and Protosses need continuous production because they can't batch whore and fill an expo.
I think pros DO make drones throughout the game, but we never see that kind of thing during the game (it's not exactly exciting).
It is a helpful hint for me though. I batch-produce drones and batch-produce armies and never mix them because I find it hard to keep track of how many drones I have. My thought process is basically
"Take a look at field. Do I have enough?" -> Pump army.
"I don't have enough?" -> Pump drone.
It would take more thinking for me to continuously make drones. I'd have to redefine what I think is "enough", probably by subdividing it into finer intervals.
"Take a look at field. Do I have more than enough?" -> Pump army.
"A little under enough?" -> One drone, rest army.
"Not enough?" -> Half drone, half army.
"Not at all enough." -> All drone, no army.
This is a good idea which I'll have to work on.
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Ok first off, you got the 3 hatch muta part wrong. You dont need to do any damage at all to expand or even make drones, because you expand and start making drones even before your mutas have reached the terran and making lings or w/e at that point is most of the times a mistake. Regardless of what the terran has at that point he cant hurt you if you keep your muta numbers.
The rally point stuff is dumb, noone makes less drones because its uncomfortable to pick them off fighting units and making drones in a volley allows you to switch to a better rally point very easily.
And the make a drone every 20 seconds? This does happen whenever the zerg gets a new expo, that expo will be making drones only, with the exceptions of a pair of scourge or a single defiler or even other units because the player got too excited and made fightning units with that hotkey but generally, it will be making only drones even when the rest of the hatcheries are not and even when the opponent is rather aggressive, actually, only when the opponent is aggressive will you have less hatcheries than normal producing drones.
And zerg stops making drones once he sees his bases happily saturated, and he might do a volley of 3,6,9, depending on the number of drones hes lacking more than how safe he is from the opponent.
So, i think you make this OP without really having a clear idea of what good zergs do in game.
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Are there like a thumb rule. I thought that maybe 12 minerals and 3 on gas per expo. that would meen for 3 hatch muta with 2 hatch in main 24-9 which is pretty much what you said and it is pretty easy to see how many you have too. Just select all on minerals and if all are selected and you have this like full bar you will know that you have enought. Dunno i really suck at this game but want to learn but sounds like it is pretty much close to what you said 
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I'm sure terran and protoss would have loved to be able to make army units out of their CCs and nexuses and scvs and probes out of their barrackses and gateways. Being able to switch back and forth between attacking units and drones is a huge advantage in terms of controlling timing, maximizing economy and making yourself hard to read.
You want units ready to fight exactly when they are needed. Either for when you need to defend against a strong attack or in order to make an attack that has some punch to it. Having the units ready before you need them gives you no clear advantage. As an example, you have 2 larva that come out of a hatchery in succession. You can either make 2 lings and a drone or you can make a drone then 2 lings. Making the drone first makes you able to mine with that drone 13 seconds extra. So it should be clear that getting that drone first is good if getting the lings immediately does not make up for the 13 seconds extra mining time.
Gradual increase in army is something that doesn't really help zerg when looking at how that would play out. Starting your muta harass with 3 mutas then gradually increasing numbers is not really a good option because they would hardly be more effective than a flock of no mutas are.
Your suggestion is more relevant when you ignore timing altogether and just make it your strategy to always make 1 unit for each unit he has, thus always having enough units to block his advances. In theory this is fine, but races will have different "natural" timings where some tech kicks in and the army is magically 10 times stronger. And if you blindly are just matching up your army to his, your army will be overpowered for its purpose at some times and underpowered at others.
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Interesting thread so far. Don't know how i missed it.
Before answering to the OP i'd like to point out a rule of thumb : always have at least 1,5 peons per mineral patch. You can build more up to 3 peons per mineral (i think ? Not sure cauz it's been a long time i've not made like 30 drones in only 1 base :p) but you really need to have a plan before making additionnal drones.
To op : I think you have already answered your own question. Most of the time we have 3 hatches pumping drones to a point where we need to make units to defend. And then we have another base which is constantly pumping drones aswell. The thing is, when we get an advantage in a point, you can easily pump drones from all hatches and transfer them to ur expand (and why not, making another expand. You can easily afford it).
However it's really interesting to know what are the pro and cons from making drones as the time go on. But i think we're just too used to build full attack units untill we have enough drones to pump from all hatcheries. If you need to tech, you can always makes like 3 or 5 drones to build for example a queen nest and let the others drones pumping more minerals.
Dunno really, i think it's just our own style.
At least we can be sure of 1 thing : The misrah's post is another way to change our zerg's style and it looks fun ! :p Gonna test it asap ~
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I think Z is all about timings.
You power drones and go economy for as long as you can. Then, at the last possible moment, you start going pure army to defend/attack.
It's inefficient to just be building one or two drones as you slowly build your army... Terrans and Protoss don't have a choice, because of the way their races work, but you do.
Here.
What's more valuable? Building 20 drones while the opponent can't attack you, and you can't attack your opponent, then building pure army when you know you'll need to prepare for attack/defence.
Or
Building probably 16 drones and army simultaneously over the same amount of time.
Zerg macro is simple. Power and expand when you think the opponent's next attack won't kill you. Build army otherwise. There is not point in building army when you cannot attack. It's inefficient to prepare for an attack before you have to. Therefore, rarely army and macro at the same time, unless you've made a mistake.
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You can make army and drones at the same time. For example, your army engaged the opponent's army and won the battle. You have 2 choices: to make more units and add additiional pressure or to add drones because you just won your recent battle.
It is important to pump drones at the beginning because any other unit won't do anything else other than force your opponent to add defense. In ZvZ however, it is a different story...
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the zerg after go unit production he make droness all time hwit the new hatrchery at the new expansion after the drone cont is don take another exp and this hatcheri will be unit poroduction hatchery and whyt the new only done and so on ...
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i dont see why zerg would produce units to give up economic advantage when the units produce isn't enough to do any damage, nor is it necessary to use as defense.
say its 5 min into game
instead of 10 drone,
you have 5 drone, 10 lings.
but 1 minute later, the person who power drones will be much richer. true not having lings allows them to be attacked, but thats a matter of timing. so if you know your opponent can't kill you in 5 minutes, why make those lings?
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EPT
