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On March 28 2009 12:35 MaRiNe23 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I just have three questions:
1) When you scout the protoss doing the gay zealot into dragoon range strategy how do YOU micro vs the zealot to not lose any rines if you have 3 marines at that point. For me I hold position one marine in the crack between the CC and barrax where the zeal don't fit and micro with the other two marines. Other times however the toss jsut keeps on right clicking his zeal till it's RIGHT next to my rine and attack then right click past rine again and repeats and the whole time I'm trying to circle around my base to get far enough in range to micro vs gthe zealot when it's not right next to my rines. This is how I do it but if there is a better way then taht would be helpful. Mainly vs korean protosses who know how to micro and gets as close to the marines as possible before attacking. And I know that you already know how much of an effect losing rines has when you're doing an FD build. Sorry that was alot longer than expected.
2) I don't know if you seen jf vs never on destination but jf basically does one gate proxy at his natural expo then gas rushes him. So the entire early game never is microing his azz off trying to defend the continuous zeal pressure and had to make 2 rax in to marine medic. He did eventually win but is there a "solid counter" that you do vs this or do u have to micro ur marines the best way possible while getting a bunker up into marine medic?
3) My most important question - Is there ever a point where you stop making scvs? Before you answer let me tell you what I know for sure. I know that in tvz for example you constantly produce scvs,marines,depots up till the muta harrass into lurker transition timing. But once you get ur vessel and have 1-5 units hotkeyed and moving out, I just feel that it greatly disrupts with my multitasking when at that point in the game in tvz, i need to be scanning for where his army,iridating,siegeing tanks+stimming at perfect timing+macroing making more barrax and depots and rines that build fast as heck. And I know this is from macroing bad but even when I stop producing scvs MID GAME i can still have up to 2k some games.So in my mind I always thought halting scvs mid game in tvz was okay. I play vs lots of good zergs and I never had a problem with a steady flow of income but rather having so much income(like 2k even)that I can't spend even when i stopped making scvs at that point. I hope I made everything as clear as possible and sorry it's so long. Thx ^^
Marine23:
Sorry that I haven't answered your question earlier, i forgot about it and I've been rather busy the last week, hence not so much updates etc, hope that will change now unless i have work tomorrow of which im not sure yet.
1. I think I explain how to micro vs zealots in the TvP General Tip VOD.
If there is an open area you need to walk away with the target of the zealot while letting the other chose, and if he sets a new target move that one and let the others shoot. This can be pretty hard sometimes, specially with lag issues.
If the fight occurs in a ramp position simply put an scv or two to block the zealot.
When the fight occurs in your base you need to take full advantage of your buildingplacement. Usually you will have 2-3 marines when his first zealot arrives. Dont keep one marine hold pos or whatever in the middle of the narrow passage.
Grag all the marines and target fire the zealot. When he moves towards you, run all of them through the passage until they are all out of range from his attack, then fire again, he will have to run back to not get fired on. Then you move out when he runs away and follow him to fire again, he will yet again try to kill your marines and you just repeat this movement until you have killed his unit or your tank pops out.
2. There is no "solid counter" to this.
You can cut one scv in the middle of producing if its obvious that he's going to steal the gas and take the gas before he can steal it, then cancel with the scvb and go back to minerals for a while before finnishing the refinary.
You can take 5 scv and attack the assimilator and then make refinary, this will give you a slight advantage but vs a lesser player its always good to do this. Just remember that you shall not kill the assimilator if his probe is close by because then he might re-build it before you can place a refinary.
You can proxy a rax and let him take the gas, produce marines from both barracks and scout his main with an scv. When you have aprox 6-10 marines pull all scvs and marines and attack his main. Good micro will win you many games.
3. There is not a time when you should stop producing scvs, but rather a situation.
For example if his muta harass was effective, killing alot of scvs, you shouldn't stop producing scvs at the normal timing.
Desicions on SCV production are made for various reasons;
- Cutting, You have a saturated base. Enough scvs, more scvs will not give you greater income.
- Cutting, You are cutting scvs to execute a timing attack or strategy. This will give you a greater economy for a moment since you are not putting any minerals into making scvs.
- Cutting, You need extra suply for units rather than scvs.
- Producing, you need to establish an economy(obiously)
- Producing, you can continue producing scvs on an already saturated base if you have plans of taking another expansion soon. This way when you transfer them, you will have both bases well saturated faster.
If you have more questions feel free to ask.
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ok idont ive might of missed it or forgot in if you said it in your 2hatch counter build but whaat do you do when zergs goes 2hathc lurk?play defencefly?if you come out he can drop lurker and ..... you obviously cant mass rines cuz lurkers will kill it if he contains so you just continue with 9min push but faster 3rd rax ?
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On April 01 2009 06:48 ZzZzAnG wrote:
ok idont ive might of missed it or forgot in if you said it in your 2hatch counter build but whaat do you do when zergs goes 2hathc lurk?play defencefly?if you come out he can drop lurker and ..... you obviously cant mass rines cuz lurkers will kill it if he contains so you just continue with 9min push but faster 3rd rax ?
Check the FAQ. 9minpush -> by the bottom.
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That was great, its just.. You didnt explain the build orders. I was a little disappointed when there were these nice strats to go with these nice BOs but the BOs arent there.
Yes, I searched a-yu-mi.
also.. Where are your vods?
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I don't know if someone already said this, but for all the Zergs that said things similar to "I wish there was a Zerg teacher like this" or something along those lines, Ahzz's guide is pretty damn good.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73314
It's kinda out of date I suppose, so it lacks some of the more recent builds, but there's tons of great stuff in there.
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Hey
I love what you're doing in this thread, but so far, it's all been about BOs and counters.
Could you explain some basic and crucial strategies/tactics that Terrans need to master to win games and to come back from lost games? Mechanics can only take you so far vs a player with equal mechanics...like could you outline the basics of superior play?
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RaptuhJeezus:
There is a link in the OP to Stylish's FPVods. There you can find all the buildorders to all the strategies (most of them anyway). This is just the complimentary thread where i compile alot of questions that I've answered in that thread basically.
Links to VODs arent working atm, because filefront shut down. I will re-link the VODs as soon as possible.
ImBlind:
The main issue im trying to accomplish is to give you something to work on. Buildorders and tips of how to get better at decisionmaking and mechanics overall. Remember that its not really important to win games. As long as you increase your skill the winning will increase over time.
I suppose you're looking for something like Day[9] is talking about in his podcasts?
I have thought of making some VODs about how to generally improve and take advantage of a situation etc, I guess they will be up soon enough^^ So be patient.
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On April 01 2009 15:37 StylishVODs wrote:
ImBlind:
The main issue im trying to accomplish is to give you something to work on. Buildorders and tips of how to get better at decisionmaking and mechanics overall. Remember that its not really important to win games. As long as you increase your skill the winning will increase over time.
I suppose you're looking for something like Day[9] is talking about in his podcasts?
I have thought of making some VODs about how to generally improve and take advantage of a situation etc, I guess they will be up soon enough^^ So be patient.
Kk
I have played a little less than 20 legit late game TvZs, TvTs, and TvPs. I have thrown away almost all my late games because i don't know what to do compared to mid game.
I guess what im asking about is how to play late game in general compared to mid game. I usually move out with an army in all MUs with the mentality that I'm going to kill their expo or secure my own expo. Then after that, its the same thing all over again.
I am delaying all my games to late game on purpose to practice what i am supposed to do...except what AM I supposed to do late game?
Im not asking about strategy regarding macro and "if...then" scenarios, but about the tactics that use micro and unit management to win the game. At my level, i can't win games with a single huge push; i need some sort of handicap or something that gives me an advantage before I exchange armies.
Plus, my push has so many inconsistencies that i can't really accomplish a successful 1hitKO with it...
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Yeah i get your point. I can try to give general tips etc, but if it were possible to tell people what to do in the lategame this game would be easy, and its not
The problem with giving tips lategame, specially general tips is that each game looks different and there are alot of things you could do.
"Seeing an opportunity and how to take advantage of it" is probably the best guide I can do for this.
I will try to do seomthing like that.
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I have a question stylish. I was watching tossgirl vs casey on gom just now and tastless kept saying that tossgirl should not have been sieging her tanks verse the lurkers casey had because he would just rush in and take out the tanks.
I have this exact same problem, when I have like 1-3 tanks I siege them and the zerg just rushes in. Is there a good time to siege up in zvt vs lurkers or lurkerling? How do you judge when you should or should not siege?
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Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range.
This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army.
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On March 28 2009 20:49 Hundredth wrote:There's like not definitive TvT guides though ;o Anyway, for TvZ could you talk about micro when doing the 9 min push, for example when they flank you how do you rearrange your units etc and how you scout their army positioning. Here's a rep showing what I mean: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=9586The skill difference is pretty big (he's C I'm D) but I feel I kept level with him until he annihilated my push.
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Why in builds like the ayumi build (or w/e) do you save up then make 3 rax, rather than making each one asap? You'd get your marines out slightly faster then.
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Hundredth:
I want to utilize every scv as much as possible since its such an early game strategy. Making them one by one doesnt really matter since you will need to wait for 4 medics before you move out anyway.
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On April 01 2009 22:38 StylishVODs wrote:
Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range.
This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army.
cheers.
EDIT: Another question I have is about TvZ, the first upgrade I get is +1 attack when my ebay pops... but I find by around the time it finishes the game is going to start revolving around lurkers not mutas... so would it be better to get +1 armor first to stay alive longer vs lurkers?
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extracheez:
If he opens mutalisk i would get +1 attack first. +1 attack is good vs lurkers too and you never know if he's going to make a switch to lurkers, keep producing mutaling, teching to ultralisk or guardians or whatever.
So the answer is no, always start with +1 attack unless you know for sure that he's doing like 2hatch lurker. Vs 3hatch lurker +1 attack or defense, isn't that cruical.
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On April 02 2009 09:08 extracheez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2009 22:38 StylishVODs wrote:
Usually you want to siege up a few seconds before he decides to move in.
The only reason you shouldnt siege the tanks is if you need to push forward fast and not get delayed, or that zerg has too much units and will simply run you over if you aren't mobile.
Whenever zerg has overwhelming units you need to take advantage of that lurkers need to burrow before they can attack. When he runs in, shoot as much as you can and then move out of range.
This includes your tanks.
But generally, whenever you have an equally strong army or slightly less units you should use siegemode and dmatrix / spreadmicro to defeat a zerg army. cheers. EDIT: Another question I have is about TvZ, the first upgrade I get is +1 attack when my ebay pops... but I find by around the time it finishes the game is going to start revolving around lurkers not mutas... so would it be better to get +1 armor first to stay alive longer vs lurkers?
I think I can answer this one..I remember hearing TheMarine commentating on Bnet attack(can't remember which progamer right now at the top of hmy head)that if you're confident in your micro then you should upgrade +1 attack first and if not you should get the armor. For my personal preference I like getting +1 armor to reduce the amount of marines I lose and focus alittle less on the micro aspect vs the mutalisk micro. The +1 armor allows me to lose less marines to the hold position micro where if your marines are out of formation for some reason can lose 3+ marines in one shot.
There are builds that gets you the +1 as the mutas come into your base so you must not be doing the build order correctly. Otherwise, your last question just goes back to my first answer in that if your more comfortable with micro you should get the +1 attack first and vice versa. You're basically asking, "Because I won't have +1 atk or +1 armor by the time his mutalisks come, which upgrade do you recommend I get vs lurker?"
edit: ah stylish beat me to it lol. and thanx for the answer to my questions it really helped alot but I just didn't know "the most efficient way" to micro when a goon came with his one zealot which was the timing RIGHT before my 1st tank came out and i had about 4-5 marines rallied behind my supply+rax sim city vs zealot.
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just wanted to thank you stylish - this is a great guide.
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What's the optimal way to fight against a 2 base DT drop into fast arbiters (off 2 base)? I played a game where my opponent did this and I held off the DT harass moderately well but was unsure of how to follow up.
If I'm intending to get my third base early, do I still take it when the Protoss remains on 2 base for a while? Should I instead go up to 6 factories + port?
When should I push? Before arbiters come out? When I've got vessels, emp and a few goliaths while arbs are out?
How do I prepare for an early recall? What formation of turrets/mines around my base should I use?
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Russian Federation6 Posts
Hi there guys, sry for stupid question, i'm just new here so umm where can i find Stylish Vods? i downloaded a pack with 39 vods but donno where can i find other ones... If it is not hard please give me the link. Thx
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On April 03 2009 08:55 Pr0v0kat0r wrote:
Hi there guys, sry for stupid question, i'm just new here so umm where can i find Stylish Vods? i downloaded a pack with 39 vods but donno where can i find other ones... If it is not hard please give me the link. Thx
hey, here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770
welcome to TL :D
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EPT
