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On March 04 2009 14:36 Tom Phoenix wrote:While I admire your ingenuity, I just do not see this being all that beneficial. In order for your deception to work, your opponent must scout you out at an exact moment since otherwise he will either see through your scheme by seeing the attacking Zerglings or the Spire will finish morphing. Basically, it relies too much on chance to be a credible method. A worthy effort, but ultimately not worth it. Sort of like my idea how Hydra/Lurker could potentially be viable in ZvZ, only to find out it is already a well established strategy. 
What is the drawback? That they runby and get your 1/2 hp spire where they wouldn't a full hp one? Very unlikely. Usually runbys are either game ending, or complete failures, depending on the z's level of defense. In my view, this trick is low risk, medium reward, and could be executed in the majority of tvz's.
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Wow, I love this idea. I'm totally going to try this, will PM replay if it works haha.
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Braavos36402 Posts
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha
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On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha
No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
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On March 04 2009 15:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
He'll never see it coming.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On March 04 2009 15:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
or you could fake fake fake fake delayed spire, which is an ordinary spire.
...i think.
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Wow ingenious...props to you
I really hope this will reach the ears and eyes of Zerg progamers
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This is brilliant. Great job.
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On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this.
sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is?
right
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On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right
If players don't necessarily know each other, like on ICCUP, they could not be sure of the exact level of the opponent and could easily believe that the spire was late. Also, if the Terran pressures the Zerg before the spire goes up, he could think that he delayed the spire by forcing additional ling production.
The advantage for Z of having no turrets in T's base(s) for ten seconds is considerable. This idea cannot always work, but surely it can sometimes. Our attitude should not be to beat down innovative thought and feel like it is below us. Instead, we should figure out how this can be used to improve builds/play mindgames.
For example, is it possible to do a 2 hatch build and pretend it is 3 hatch using this on certain maps? Probably not. But imagine if someone could figure out how to do something of that nature. It would be awesome. Writing off something you have never thought of before so quickly is counter-productive.
Ok guys, let's figure out ways we can make this thing work, test them then post the results.
If you think this is shit, then you should prove it as well!
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'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
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On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
Fair enough.
I think that with some of the enthusiasm displayed in this thread, efforts will definitely made to see if/when/how this could be viable.
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On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right
If it gets you even one win, then it's a lot more viable than you've made it out to be.
To reply specifically to what you just wrote, isn't the idea of this BO to take advantage of a guy who does know standard muta timing and likes to cut corners on turret timing? If he's good enough to competently do both, then scouting a delayed spire would alert him to the fact that his opponent has missed standard muta timing and that he can delay his turrets just a bit more, no?
On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
If the zerg tries to use this "redtooth" trick, and gets his sunkens busted enough to allow a runby, he probably deserves the lose the game, doesn't he?
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im gonna cancel my spire at the last minute, and use the money to make more drones. he will have wasted all that money on missle turrets. its just the plain fake spire trick.
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Well you can use this trick with sunkens too. Let sunken attack spire instead of lings but you need extra sunken to be it effective, as you attack another sunken. Terran might think you are just removing one useless sunken to not block future lurkers etc (he hears sound).
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On March 04 2009 12:29 AttackZerg wrote:
btw I never used a progress bar before.
I click on the hp, and know exactly how far along a build is .... I've always timed things that way.
Progress bars? Which progress bars? :-)
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I think if the terran scans you while your lings are attacking the spire he will just lol hard.
Really bad idea vs a protoss player. Especially if he wants to make some kind of +1 speed rush with a run-by to your main.
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On March 04 2009 14:46 AttackZerg wrote:I have yet to play a terran on iccup that didn't scan my spire either at 60% 80% or just completed.
And yet, which one of those three it is makes a huge difference as far as this deception is concerned. That is precisely my point. It is basically a gamble when the scan will occur beacuse the timing is relative. It is just far too easy for the scan to come too early or too late for this to work.
Alphafuzard, my point was that it is not worth the effort since it is unlikely to pay off. Even if it is a small trick, it is still one of the many things that weight down upon your already streched multitasking since it requires your attention. In my eyes, it is a low risk, unlikely reward and your time is better spent on macromanagement.
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On March 04 2009 17:03 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right If it gets you even one win, then it's a lot more viable than you've made it out to be. To reply specifically to what you just wrote, isn't the idea of this BO to take advantage of a guy who does know standard muta timing and likes to cut corners on turret timing? If he's good enough to competently do both, then scouting a delayed spire would alert him to the fact that his opponent has missed standard muta timing and that he can delay his turrets just a bit more, no? no people who dont know standard muta timing are the ones who depend on scanning tech for turret timing. those who do just use the first scans to check for lurkers or fast hive/evolve and drone count. Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about. If the zerg tries to use this "redtooth" trick, and gets his sunkens busted enough to allow a runby, he probably deserves the lose the game, doesn't he?
losing a group of mmf earlyish game is a pretty big blow to terran. there are plenty of games where you can run in and kill a few drones or force a group of lings or something, but still lose all your mmf, and so be in pretty equal shape. getting past their sunken line isnt autowin.
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Normally my pride would limit me in a situation like this, trying to diminish this in some way or tell myself that I too could come up with such an idea.
That being said, this is simply too freaking creative for me to diminish in any way. Though I could bring up things like turret timings at higher levels and that it's a 1/20 chance of actually working the way intended really(at like, D rank)... But honestly, There is no reason not to do this. There's no downside. Even if you're caught in the act with lings, even if he watches you as you do it, he will only have a rough estimation of the progress of the spire and nothing more. Someone should find out the exact amount of lings to keep the HP of the spire stagnant. That would be brilliant.
I will probably use the term "redtooth" at some point, maybe in a vod.
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EPT
