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The Fake Delayed Spire
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The Prologue
Before you go: "tl;dr", "wtf is this bull", "omg he named it after himself", "there is no such thing as a fake delayed spire", "Chill destroy this kid!", please at least read the section labeled The Idea. If you read anything, please read that section. I have done a cursory search and did not find any thread that talked about this idea and quickly read through the "Strategy Forum Guidelines" so that Chill won't destroy me. I have hope for this idea and believe it has at least some potential. It is a little long but I tried to be as detailed as possible. Then again, there is an equal chance of it failing epically. Alright let's get started.
The Introduction
As a high school senior already accepted into college, I have nothing to do nowadays. I spend my time juggling TL Mafia, ICCup, and watching new and old ProSC VODs. My latest delve into TLPD's "Individual League" gamelists led me to an old match between Jaedong and Light. While I was watching, Light scanned Jaedong's base to find out how far his spire had progressed and saw a half completed spire with a few idle zerglings around it. Then the thought occurred to me - What if Jaedong tricked Light into thinking his timing was different? The "Fake Delayed Spire" idea was born.
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The Idea
Yes. The banner shows it all. A Zerg player actually has the capability to manipulate the HP of his Spire to show anything he wants it to regardless of the progress of the building process. Many Terran players use their maphacks comsats to check out the progress of the Spire and place turrets accordingly. By using units (probably Zerglings) to attack your own Spire, you are able to manipulate the HP of the Spire and have it broadcast false information. This could severely throw off the opponents timing when they see a Spire that looks only half-done but is in fact almost complete. By the time the next scan comes around, it'll already be too late.
Note: If this is the only thing you read, you understand, and you wish to participate in the discussion, please check out The Feedback section first. There have been a lot of things mentioned and it's annoying to see the same thing repeated again and again.
The Condition
There are a few conditions that make this theorycraft work:
- The Terran will scan your base and check the HP of the Spire to determine how far it has progressed.
- The Zerg Player is able to attack its own Spire and throw off the Terran's timing.
- There is no evidence that the Zerg player altered the Spire's HP.
The Detailed Argument
The key to this strategy hinges around the inherent nature of the Zerg building. Terran buildings show its "building" progress by adding more pieces to a basic structure until it eventually resembles the actually building. Protoss buildings create a blue warping ball that only resembles the final building when it completes warping. Zergs have a third way of morphing in their buildings by first having a basic "blob" that turns into a more advanced "blob" around ~1/3 of the way through the building time (Sorry but "blob" is the best word I could think of to describe the Zerg building. With any rudimentary knowledge about Starcraft, you would understand what I mean). All three of the buildings also have ways to show that they are taking damage - Protoss and Terran showing fires colored blue and red respectively, Zerg showing a bleeding building. However, unfinished buildings do not show any sign of damage.
As mentioned before, in a standard game the Terran would scan the Zerg base to check the progress of the Spire. Because Zerg buildings only have two stages - the lesser "blob" and the greater "blob" (as opposed to Terran buildings which have many stages of "progress"), it is beneficial for the Terran to actually click on the Zerg Spire and check how far along it is.
The Zerg player (using idle zerglings) may attack its own building and drastically reduce the HP of the Spire. The Terran player, in turn, checks the HP of the Spire and sees that it is not that far along (e.g. 300 HP or only half way done) when in fact the Spire is much farther along than initially perceived. Because of the inherent nature of buildings in progress in Starcraft, the damaged Spire will not show any sign of having taken damage. The Terran, assuming the Spire is not close to being finished, will take the standard course of delaying turrets until as late as possible, during which the Zerg's Spire would finish and a group of mutalisks fly to the Terran's base without him (or her if this gets used against Tossgirl) being prepared.
Being so shocked by the arrival of mutalisks without the Zerg even having a completed Spire, the Terran gets angry and becomes BM while exiting the game without saying GG.
The Pictures
The following are pictures to show just what I am talking about. They show two Spires, one (on the right) will be left unaltered. The other (on the left) will show a Spire with the technique being used on it. Pay special attention to the progress of the Spire (shown by the progress bar) and the health the Spire has.
+ Show Spoiler [Spires at Stage One] +Nothing much. Notice how the "blob" appears, signifying that the Spire just started building. The Spire evolves into a greater "blob" at around 200 HP (or 1/3 of the full building health). Question: Does this apply to all Zerg buildings? Both Spires are still early off in their building time. The good stuff. The Spire on the left had the technique used on it. On the right is the unaltered Spire. Notice how the left Spire does not have its health drop below 200 because it would need to be a lesser "blob" if it was under 200. The Terran, seeing the seemingly normal Spire at 200 HP, would think that it was still early. Notice the similarities despite the fact that one Spire is ~20 seconds further along than the other. In ~3 seconds (with 6 Zerglings) you mask the actual timing of the Spire. No bleeding (until the buildings are actually finished of course), no progress bar over the building alerting the opponent, no nothing. Awesome.
The Forseeable Downfalls
- The Zerg player cannot perfectly predict when the Terran will scan.
- If the Terran sees Zerglings near your Spire (or a lack of Zerglings directly outside his natural) he may know what's up.
- The Terran player may not click (or may not even comsat) your Spire and just build turrets regardless.
- When a Terran scans, counting the amount of larva you have would probably indicate how far along your Spire actually is. (idea first pointed out by AnOth3rDAy). A potential counter is by making your spire as far away from your Hatchery as possible (probably need to make a creep or something somewhere) so that the Terran would need to waste another scan to check your larvae count. That would remove the "no drawback" factor, though.
The Other Applications
- This same method can be used against Protoss by showing a scouting probe or corsair an altered Spire. The corsair would start attacking your overlord and not realize that you are so close to morphing in scourge and lose his corsair.
- You can alter other Zerg buildings such as hydralisk dens. Starcraft puts a high emphasis on very precise timings and just basing your timings on false information could cause a loss.
- You could fake this technique and just have Zerglings standing adjacent to the Spire. The Terran might overreact and build his turrets much too early, thereby decreasing the number of SCVs and other units he makes and thereby decreasing his efficiency. It'll all just be a big mindgame.
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The Feedback (indented means they add to the strategic factor)
+ Show Spoiler [Feedback, Ideas, Epic Proclamations] +Chill, the killer of strategy noobs, thinks this is a good idea il0seonpurpose wants to point out that the pictures are exaggerated. I agree. AttackZerg vows to use it in every game from now. Chill points out there is nothing to lose. Zortch agrees. randombum thinks we should hide the zergling. Archaic proposes using this on a hydralisk den. Conquest101 says maybe a 9 pool in PvZ? ShaLLoW[baY] tries to find a use for using this in ZvZ. IdrA recalls a time when he had a heart. He now lives to ruin other people's dreams. Pieguy314 thinks this is the best thing in history. I disagree. There are things better then this. Pizza and laser tag are two examples. AnOth3rDAy points out that the larva near the hatcheries gives the Spire timing away. pertzergling wants to note that this would be more applicable on some maps. Smorrie becomes the first person to try this out and report back! Report: Epic Fail. Maybe his opponents were too gosu?
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This is an amazing idea. I have to try it!
EDIT: one problem I see is that the zerglings you use might be needed elsewhere at the time, since during the time before the spire finishes zerg is most vulnerable.
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Calgary25980 Posts
You don't need a two paragraph disclaimer telling me not to close something. I'm not retarded.
Reading...
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
This is an exceedingly clever idea. If nothing else you deserve credit for the most original piece of theorycraft I've seen in a while.
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Calgary25980 Posts
This is incredible. Not only have I never thought about something like this, I've never heard ANYONE think about it. Definitely viable. Great idea!
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At lower levels, the terran can expect mutas even without scanning, and chances are he will scan and see your lings. I would recommend to do this when your spire's in your main, because if the terran gets a few marines and a tank in your natural, that spire's going to die so much faster.
Usually I would scan to see when to expect mutas, because some BOs incorporate turrets in them anyway.
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That's really creative, but I'm sure it would have little effect most of the time. When it does work though it could yield some advantage. I'd laugh if you were playing unknowingly vs 2 port wraith rush and he kills your spire with 4 wraiths or something.
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This would actually work on better players more often since they usually have a better grasp of timing according to spire health. But the only two timings for spire builds in TvZ are 2 hatch and 3 hatch but that's usually scouted by their SCVs?
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I just want to say that this is friggin genius. I don't think pro's know of this. It's really nice to see that even after 10 years there is still innovation in sc.
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definitely a neat idea, ill keep an eye on this thread to see if it takes off.
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It's a really nice idea but most decent terrans/tosses would know the progress, you sorta exaggerated your pictures, the spires only having 220 hp when almost finished. But otherwise yeah it should be awesome
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your post rocks but honestly, just, honestly. i dont think its worth it. HOWEVER, if you just play with the same person, do the same fucking build over and over AND THEN change it up, then yes, you can add in the surprise factor and buttfuck him, but of course, this depends on his scouting and whatnot.
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Wow.
I am not lying when I say that this is 100% going to be used by me sometimes for the rest of my broodwar career.
I had no idea!
wow!
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Wow. Really cool. I've kind of thought of damaging to delay, but i couldn't think of an application, which is of course, where the actual innovation is involved.
You are brilliant. Not only is it a neat tactic, I think it is a tactic that is MOST effective at a high level.
edit: I love how you promote your name so much XD...someone really wants to go down in history
edit 2: I also think this is very effective around C to A- level where timings are very sensitive, but not like the pros who time their builds out exactly.
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lol this is similar to the thing where the zerg kills the gas after he gets speed.
+1
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In my opinion this is not so great.
When I (Terran) scan a morphing zerg building I'm going to click on it to see what it is, and then I'm going to check the progress bar since I'm basically looking directly at it already.
Therefore all you've done is made your spire easier to kill 
Do better players just ignore the progress bar? lol... I think it is a nice idea, but in practice it won't fool so many people.
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There is no progress bar for enemy buildings.
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On March 04 2009 11:55 conCentrate9 wrote:
There is no progress bar for enemy buildings.
OHH SNAP
Actually I never knew that
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whattt
This is frigging great. Take that terrans and toss. Time to let the mind games begin 
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Calgary25980 Posts
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...!
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the only disadvantage is when you are in the lower rankings of iccup and what not, i think most terrans would just react seeing a spire and put up turrets. as you get into higher level plays, i think this really fucks with the mind games alot more.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2009 11:53 )HyPe( wrote:In my opinion this is not so great. When I (Terran) scan a morphing zerg building I'm going to click on it to see what it is, and then I'm going to check the progress bar since I'm basically looking directly at it already. Therefore all you've done is made your spire easier to kill Do better players just ignore the progress bar? lol... I think it is a nice idea, but in practice it won't fool so many people.
lol
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On March 04 2009 11:53 )HyPe( wrote:In my opinion this is not so great. When I (Terran) scan a morphing zerg building I'm going to click on it to see what it is, and then I'm going to check the progress bar since I'm basically looking directly at it already. Therefore all you've done is made your spire easier to kill Do better players just ignore the progress bar? lol... I think it is a nice idea, but in practice it won't fool so many people.
someone maphacks.....
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On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...!
except for that dratted wraith build. Also if you varied how much you damaged the buildings you could throw off any "expected" delays
edit: truthfully, that is my biggest worry, and only negative thing i can really think of. For a quick wraith build you put yourself at risk.
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On March 04 2009 11:58 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:53 )HyPe( wrote:In my opinion this is not so great. When I (Terran) scan a morphing zerg building I'm going to click on it to see what it is, and then I'm going to check the progress bar since I'm basically looking directly at it already. Therefore all you've done is made your spire easier to kill Do better players just ignore the progress bar? lol... I think it is a nice idea, but in practice it won't fool so many people. lol You're right. I suck at Starcraft and you have just foiled all my plans. I am mostly making this post so that I have your quote forever locked away from your editing powers. As for everybody else, keep the feedback coming (even if it is negative, just don't be an idiot like that dude). I am actually quite excited as to how this will impact the community. AttackZerg has already vowed to use this every time so we'll see how it goes.
Haha well I've really been shown up haven't I ^^;;
I haven't played starcraft for awhile so I guess I've forgotten that the progress bar doesn't show. I wasn't meaning to put you down or anything, but I guess that I can only admit that I was wrong
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woot taking it in stride hype!
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My only question is when would you try to hit the spire? You can't do it constantly because you cannot risk attacking the spire during a scan.
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On March 04 2009 11:53 )HyPe( wrote:In my opinion this is not so great. When I (Terran) scan a morphing zerg building I'm going to click on it to see what it is, and then I'm going to check the progress bar since I'm basically looking directly at it already. Therefore all you've done is made your spire easier to kill Do better players just ignore the progress bar? lol... I think it is a nice idea, but in practice it won't fool so many people.
hero troll!
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Another way to do it is to just have one zergling hiding on the top middle of the spire (where that appendage looking thing sticks out), and have it attack the spire when its about 350-400 life. It will then proceed to stay around 350-400 life (going down slowly). Allowing you to run your other 5 zerglings around doing w/e and the terran cannot see the zergling easily. (you have to be specifically looking for that itty-bitty zergling tail that sticks out).
This could help you use it practically and not have to watch it too much. Although I think the zergling attack sound would give it away to a terran who has seen this, but for pure visuals the zergling is well hidden.
Nonetheless, great idea redtooth, if nothing else this can throw just a tad bit more confusion into zvt.
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On March 04 2009 12:08 Qatol wrote:
My only question is when would you try to hit the spire? You can't do it constantly because you cannot risk attacking the spire during a scan.
Sure you can.
The beauty of this is that it isn't integral to the build.
You can do a super standard 3-hatch muta build and throw in this trick.
If he doesn't see you doing it you may gain an advantage. If he does see it you probably don't gain an advantage, but you lose almost nothing.
I agree that it is better to not get scanned while attacking the spire, but one can certainly risk it.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2009 12:02 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...! except for that dratted wraith build. Also if you varied how much you damaged the buildings you could throw off any "expected" delays edit: truthfully, that is my biggest worry, and only negative thing i can really think of. For a quick wraith build you put yourself at risk.
how many times do you play vs quick wraith? O_o if you cant figure out hes going quick wraith by there being no fe you shouldnt be using this anyways.
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On March 04 2009 11:43 Raithed wrote:
your post rocks but honestly, just, honestly. i dont think its worth it. HOWEVER, if you just play with the same person, do the same fucking build over and over AND THEN change it up, then yes, you can add in the surprise factor and buttfuck him, but of course, this depends on his scouting and whatnot.
raithed said it was bad, it must be good
i'll try this out sometime~
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Really nice idea, good job.
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Starcraft is the greatest rts game ever made because innovations like THIS are possible. Spectacular idea, I'd like to see it in action.
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O_O... I'm going to go redtooth my hydralisk den vs my friend in ZvT. Oh, look at that, you just got the act synonymous with your name.
Epic, genius, and amazing. Props!
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btw I never used a progress bar before.
I click on the hp, and know exactly how far along a build is .... I've always timed things that way.
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On March 04 2009 12:14 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 12:02 DamageControL wrote:On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...! except for that dratted wraith build. Also if you varied how much you damaged the buildings you could throw off any "expected" delays edit: truthfully, that is my biggest worry, and only negative thing i can really think of. For a quick wraith build you put yourself at risk. how many times do you play vs quick wraith? O_o if you cant figure out hes going quick wraith by there being no fe you shouldnt be using this anyways.
or it could be three rax or metal....well i guess those both neutralize muta.
edit: also i'm toss. So i'm uncertain about any other one-base strats muta could be good against
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lol...
pretty good idea... i guess...terrans should really know the timings by heart without scanning though... and know about when to put turrets even without scan.
if you dont, you should try to.
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On March 04 2009 12:29 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 12:14 Chill wrote:On March 04 2009 12:02 DamageControL wrote:On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...! except for that dratted wraith build. Also if you varied how much you damaged the buildings you could throw off any "expected" delays edit: truthfully, that is my biggest worry, and only negative thing i can really think of. For a quick wraith build you put yourself at risk. how many times do you play vs quick wraith? O_o if you cant figure out hes going quick wraith by there being no fe you shouldnt be using this anyways. or it could be three rax or metal....well i guess those both neutralize muta. edit: also i'm toss. So i'm uncertain about any other one-base strats muta could be good against
There is no 1 base strategy terran or toss have that completely nurf the use of mutas.
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On March 04 2009 12:30 ramen247 wrote:
lol...
pretty good idea... i guess...terrans should really know the timings by heart without scanning though... and know about when to put turrets even without scan.
if you dont, you should try to.
This can easily be countered by throwing down a hydralisk den. Hydralisk dens are cheap, and cost very little gas so they don't throw off 3 hatch mutalisk timing that much. Place down a hydra den, redtooth your spire, and the terran will think you went 3 hatch lurker with spire for scourge.
I do have to note that in the situation of faking 3 hatch muta: The Terran can count your larvae... But the idea still stands for other vital buildings.
EDIT: Recommended thread imo.
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seems like could work on a lower level, but im sure pros know exactly when to scan to see the spire finish
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Oh man, this is pretty cool. Here's a question: anyway to work something like this into pool timing vs Protoss to make toss Nexus before forge and screw them over? Like have 1 or 2 drones attacking it until your lord sees probe come in, than the toss sees what he thinks is a just started pool and a hidden hatch? Goes Nexus first, gets owned (or worse case, is forced to cancel nexus and put cannons if he already went forge). Drone count and stuff would mess that up, unless 9 hatch at hidden expo, 9 pool is a viable build <.<.
I dunno, random theorycrafting, someone figure something good out.
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On March 04 2009 12:39 Conquest101 wrote:
Oh man, this is pretty cool. Here's a question: anyway to work something like this into pool timing vs Protoss to make toss Nexus before forge and screw them over? Like have 1 or 2 drones attacking it until your lord sees probe come in, than the toss sees what he thinks is a just started pool and a hidden hatch? Goes Nexus first, gets owned (or worse case, is forced to cancel nexus and put cannons if he already went forge). Drone count and stuff would mess that up, unless 9 hatch at hidden expo, 9 pool is a viable build <.<.
I dunno, random theorycrafting, someone figure something good out.
With toss and the pool i don't think it will work because drone count is everything early game.
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On March 04 2009 12:34 ZidaneTribal wrote:
seems like could work on a lower level, but im sure pros know exactly when to scan to see the spire finish
Agreed. This won't work at D or at pro level, but in between...there's potential.
This is such a sick idea.
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On March 04 2009 11:24 redtooth wrote:
- If this strategy becomes known, you could Fake Fake Delayed Spire and just have Zerglings standing adjacent to the Spire. The Terran might overreact and build his turrets much to early, thereby decreasing the number of SCVs and other units he makes and thereby decreasing his efficiency. It'll all just be a mindgame.
Oh man, this was exactly what I was thinking of! Make him think you're faking a delayed spire when you actually are doing a delayed spire
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fuck as if zerg timings werent gay enough already in pvz  (((
/cry redtooth'd buildings
Nice idea though, even if its gonna fuck with my toss.
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On March 04 2009 12:39 Conquest101 wrote:
Oh man, this is pretty cool. Here's a question: anyway to work something like this into pool timing vs Protoss to make toss Nexus before forge and screw them over? Like have 1 or 2 drones attacking it until your lord sees probe come in, than the toss sees what he thinks is a just started pool and a hidden hatch? Goes Nexus first, gets owned (or worse case, is forced to cancel nexus and put cannons if he already went forge). Drone count and stuff would mess that up, unless 9 hatch at hidden expo, 9 pool is a viable build <.<.
I dunno, random theorycrafting, someone figure something good out.
it's not worth it to cut production just to attack your own building (lol) and plus it would take a ridiculously long time for the drone to do noticeable damage on the pool and the probe would probably have scouted it by then. The pros of OP's idea is that most Zs are going to have at least 6 lings anyways which aren't going to be doing anything during that point of the game so you're not sacrificing anything by attacking the spire with the lings. Of course there's always the risk of the T scanning while you're attacking your spire or you accidentally destroying the spire... But this is actually an extremely clever tactic that would really throw off high-level Ts who get cocky and make turrets in the extreeeeeeeeemely last second .
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On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...!
what if terran runs in and kills the spire right before it finishes and due to lack of hp, the last marine fires its shot as it diess
D:
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On March 04 2009 13:07 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 12:01 Chill wrote:
You guys are being silly. Of course it's not going to work most of the time. But most Z's make 6 lings. After the FE is secure, what do you do with them?
That's the point, there's no downside. There's no reason NOT to do this...! what if terran runs in and kills the spire right before it finishes and due to lack of hp, the last marine fires its shot as it diess D:
What if your opponent switched race to Zerg at the last second and 4pools you?
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i think this is a really good idea and really creative. but a problem might be that it makes the spire easier to pick off by the terran with a drop or somethin?
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great idea :D
it can definitely be used at high levels, but at low levels when people have a lesser sense of the exact timing, it might not be as useful.
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This can be very useful C+ and above 
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I'm mulling over some possibilities with regards to redtoothing your Spawning Pool in ZvZ to feign a 12pool when you really did a 9pool; it would require your opponent to not count your Drones but I'm sure every once in a while they wont notice that 2-3 are missing and will drone too hard to fight off your initial Zerglings.
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rofl @ accidentally killing your own spire
Op might wanna emphasize against this mistake. Spire gets built really slowly cuz it has low HP and large build time, so it's totally possible to kill your own spire. LOL. watch out
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On March 04 2009 12:48 onihunter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 12:34 ZidaneTribal wrote:
seems like could work on a lower level, but im sure pros know exactly when to scan to see the spire finish Agreed. This won't work at D or at pro level, but in between...there's potential. This is such a sick idea.
This idea is more viable at the pro level than any other IMO.
The only level I don't see this ever working at is mine (D)
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On March 04 2009 13:24 StRyKeR wrote:
rofl @ accidentally killing your own spire
Op might wanna emphasize against this mistake. Spire gets built really slowly cuz it has low HP and large build time, so it's totally possible to kill your own spire. LOL. watch out
if you're at the level where you might accidentally kill your own spire while intentionally lowering its hp, you are not at the level where doing this trick is relevant to your play
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16987 Posts
Honestly, when I first saw that you were going to name something after yourself, I was getting ready to flame away, but I actually read the OP and it's a very ingenious idea.
I fully support redtoothing
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lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing.
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On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing.
What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to.
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Hmm...this is actually pretty neat. I love little tricks like these that screw around with your opponent's mind.
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never mind
redtooth is weird
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On March 04 2009 13:26 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 13:24 StRyKeR wrote:
rofl @ accidentally killing your own spire
Op might wanna emphasize against this mistake. Spire gets built really slowly cuz it has low HP and large build time, so it's totally possible to kill your own spire. LOL. watch out if you're at the level where you might accidentally kill your own spire while intentionally lowering its hp, you are not at the level where doing this trick is relevant to your play
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=25706
#5
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United States3824 Posts
redtooth, hats off to you for actually theorycrafting something legitimate. Everyone else has something to learn from your ingenuity.
Also, to the skeptics, find me a Terran who can successfully break Zerg's natural while mutalisks are out.
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Wow that is so great. I'm so gonna have to try using that!
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Pretty sweet idea, and like Chill said there is really no reason not to do it. If you get caught by the scan then oh well no loss, but if you don't you could have earned valuable seconds before the first turrets go up.
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LOL i'm gonna go try this in iccup right now
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i love how you named it after yourself
this thread made me smile
i'm a redtooth fan
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Post your replays if you do try this, guys.
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love the updates to the OP lol (especially the dream)
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On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to.
eh
sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire?
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On March 04 2009 14:30 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? If they reach your spire tucked away in the main base, aren't you basically dead anyways? Unless you are saying the T charges straight into your main and starts whailing on the Spire. Then they lose their army in exchange for the Z losing his Spire. Besides, I specifically mentioned that the Spire should have at least 200 HP. Gosh Idra, go read the article. And stop ruining my fantasy that I changed the competitive SC world.
200, 100, dies in 5 seconds to a handful of mm. hardly a difference. and no half the time you make it into the zergs main its cuz you're running the remainder of your units away from lings or the last sunken or trying to do damage before the mutas pop. normal circumstances you get a handful of drones and then your opponent pumps 3 hat muta at your base which now has significantly less mm defending it. given muta micro that can do serious damage to the terran alot of the time.
now if they do what you suggest they suddenly lose their spire and have 11 mutas max, which isnt likely to do damage and will not be able to control a timing attack to take out your 3rd gas. at low levels it might be fine but amongst competent players its not gonna accomplish anything and it could very well cost you the game. its a cute idea, but its not a good idea.
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While I admire your ingenuity, I just do not see this being all that beneficial. In order for your deception to work, your opponent must scout you out at an exact moment since otherwise he will either see through your scheme by seeing the attacking Zerglings or the Spire will finish morphing. Basically, it relies too much on chance to be a credible method.
A worthy effort, but ultimately not worth it. Sort of like my idea how Hydra/Lurker could potentially be viable in ZvZ, only to find out it is already a well established strategy.
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Dude I just read the OP and my mind is blown. I mean, i'm pretty blown first of all, but this idea is just... phenomenal. This is pure ingenuity and creativity and is the reason starcraft is the best game after 10+ years. I LOVE STARCFRAFT
On topic more: This is something I'd only want to do once in very many games, simply because after people see it once, they will never fall for it again.
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if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea
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you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding!
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[QUOTE]On March 04 2009 14:36 Tom Phoenix wrote:
While I admire your ingenuity, I just do not see this being all that beneficial. In order for your deception to work, your opponent must scout you out at an exact moment QUOTE]
I have yet to play a terran on iccup that didn't scan my spire either at 60% 80% or just completed.
The first too have a potential payoff .....
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I could just see someone doing a scv runby into your base and killing your 100 hitpoint spire with like 3 scvs lol. Jokes aside, weakening your spire for 15 seconds extra time sounds incredibly stupid considering all it would take is a dropship of mnm, a few wraiths or even a vulture runby and you'd be out a spire and instant gg-ed for lack of any effective tech. (unless of course you have AMAZING ling micro)
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Possibly the best thing I have ever seen in the history of mankind.
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F91, if you ever get a chance to play IdrA again you must try this.
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On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire?
This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C.
None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner.
Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this.
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On March 04 2009 14:50 Ramsing wrote:
I could just see someone doing a scv runby into your base and killing your 100 hitpoint spire with like 3 scvs lol. Jokes aside, weakening your spire for 15 seconds extra time sounds incredibly stupid considering all it would take is a dropship of mnm, a few wraiths or even a vulture runby and you'd be out a spire and instant gg-ed for lack of any effective tech. (unless of course you have AMAZING ling micro)
If you don't have the forces to defend your main from a runby or drop long enough for your spire to be taken down, then you're dead anyway. People who do this trick will know to have an overlord placed to catch drops.
The truth is that in most cases, no one ever gets near your spire mid game. This trick should not always be done, but in many cases it provides a possible benifit with an unlikely drawback.
Just because something doesn't always work, it doesn't make it a bad idea. Doing the extractor trick to get an extra drone sucks if you are doing 12 hatch, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. It's just the wrong time to do it. The same kind of logic applies to this.
EDIT spelling
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On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea
if you want people to listen you at all you should get off your high horse.
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Pretty neat but I think I'm just going to continue to fake fake delay spire.
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On March 04 2009 14:36 Tom Phoenix wrote:While I admire your ingenuity, I just do not see this being all that beneficial. In order for your deception to work, your opponent must scout you out at an exact moment since otherwise he will either see through your scheme by seeing the attacking Zerglings or the Spire will finish morphing. Basically, it relies too much on chance to be a credible method. A worthy effort, but ultimately not worth it. Sort of like my idea how Hydra/Lurker could potentially be viable in ZvZ, only to find out it is already a well established strategy.
What is the drawback? That they runby and get your 1/2 hp spire where they wouldn't a full hp one? Very unlikely. Usually runbys are either game ending, or complete failures, depending on the z's level of defense. In my view, this trick is low risk, medium reward, and could be executed in the majority of tvz's.
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Wow, I love this idea. I'm totally going to try this, will PM replay if it works haha.
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Braavos36375 Posts
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha
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On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha
No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
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On March 04 2009 15:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
He'll never see it coming.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On March 04 2009 15:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:15 Hot_Bid wrote:
lol what is fake fake delayed spire? making it actually late? hahaha No, having lings around, maybe attack for a second as soon as he scans, to make it look like you are doing the trick.
or you could fake fake fake fake delayed spire, which is an ordinary spire.
...i think.
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Wow ingenious...props to you
I really hope this will reach the ears and eyes of Zerg progamers
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This is brilliant. Great job.
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On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this.
sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is?
right
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On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right
If players don't necessarily know each other, like on ICCUP, they could not be sure of the exact level of the opponent and could easily believe that the spire was late. Also, if the Terran pressures the Zerg before the spire goes up, he could think that he delayed the spire by forcing additional ling production.
The advantage for Z of having no turrets in T's base(s) for ten seconds is considerable. This idea cannot always work, but surely it can sometimes. Our attitude should not be to beat down innovative thought and feel like it is below us. Instead, we should figure out how this can be used to improve builds/play mindgames.
For example, is it possible to do a 2 hatch build and pretend it is 3 hatch using this on certain maps? Probably not. But imagine if someone could figure out how to do something of that nature. It would be awesome. Writing off something you have never thought of before so quickly is counter-productive.
Ok guys, let's figure out ways we can make this thing work, test them then post the results.
If you think this is shit, then you should prove it as well!
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'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
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On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
Fair enough.
I think that with some of the enthusiasm displayed in this thread, efforts will definitely made to see if/when/how this could be viable.
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On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right
If it gets you even one win, then it's a lot more viable than you've made it out to be.
To reply specifically to what you just wrote, isn't the idea of this BO to take advantage of a guy who does know standard muta timing and likes to cut corners on turret timing? If he's good enough to competently do both, then scouting a delayed spire would alert him to the fact that his opponent has missed standard muta timing and that he can delay his turrets just a bit more, no?
On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about.
If the zerg tries to use this "redtooth" trick, and gets his sunkens busted enough to allow a runby, he probably deserves the lose the game, doesn't he?
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im gonna cancel my spire at the last minute, and use the money to make more drones. he will have wasted all that money on missle turrets. its just the plain fake spire trick.
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Well you can use this trick with sunkens too. Let sunken attack spire instead of lings but you need extra sunken to be it effective, as you attack another sunken. Terran might think you are just removing one useless sunken to not block future lurkers etc (he hears sound).
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On March 04 2009 12:29 AttackZerg wrote:
btw I never used a progress bar before.
I click on the hp, and know exactly how far along a build is .... I've always timed things that way.
Progress bars? Which progress bars? :-)
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I think if the terran scans you while your lings are attacking the spire he will just lol hard.
Really bad idea vs a protoss player. Especially if he wants to make some kind of +1 speed rush with a run-by to your main.
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On March 04 2009 14:46 AttackZerg wrote:I have yet to play a terran on iccup that didn't scan my spire either at 60% 80% or just completed.
And yet, which one of those three it is makes a huge difference as far as this deception is concerned. That is precisely my point. It is basically a gamble when the scan will occur beacuse the timing is relative. It is just far too easy for the scan to come too early or too late for this to work.
Alphafuzard, my point was that it is not worth the effort since it is unlikely to pay off. Even if it is a small trick, it is still one of the many things that weight down upon your already streched multitasking since it requires your attention. In my eyes, it is a low risk, unlikely reward and your time is better spent on macromanagement.
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On March 04 2009 17:03 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 15:56 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 14:55 PH wrote:On March 04 2009 14:27 IdrA wrote:On March 04 2009 13:50 iratepornstar wrote:On March 04 2009 13:37 IdrA wrote:
lol
thats cute
wont work vs koreans though, half of them dont even bother getting scanners till 50 if they see you open 3 hatch, they just know the muta timing. What about the other half? Honestly, if it works once out of 50 times it's worth it, and as Chill said there's no reason not to. eh sunken bust and as you're cleaning up the mmf they hit your 100 hp spire? This strat was posted on teamliquid. The majority of people replying here at between D and A ranks on iccup, with the vast majority being D/C. None of us are progamers. I really don't remember him saying anything about this being used at the top levels of play except in a joking manner. Get over it. It's an interesting idea, it's a cute idea, and it has fewer drawbacks than you make it out to. That situation you described doesn't happen often enough to warrant completely discounting this. sunken busts and runby dont happen often enough to warrant discounting a strategy that *might* buy you a few seconds if you get someone who is at just the right level where he tries to cut corners on turret timing, but also does not know what standard muta timing is? right If it gets you even one win, then it's a lot more viable than you've made it out to be. To reply specifically to what you just wrote, isn't the idea of this BO to take advantage of a guy who does know standard muta timing and likes to cut corners on turret timing? If he's good enough to competently do both, then scouting a delayed spire would alert him to the fact that his opponent has missed standard muta timing and that he can delay his turrets just a bit more, no? no people who dont know standard muta timing are the ones who depend on scanning tech for turret timing. those who do just use the first scans to check for lurkers or fast hive/evolve and drone count. Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 16:32 IdrA wrote:
'if xyz then it might work some of the time'
'if terran uses a common tactic zerg very well may get a free loss because of doing this'
its fine to say it would be good if someone could figure out somethin great, but until they do theres not much to talk about. If the zerg tries to use this "redtooth" trick, and gets his sunkens busted enough to allow a runby, he probably deserves the lose the game, doesn't he?
losing a group of mmf earlyish game is a pretty big blow to terran. there are plenty of games where you can run in and kill a few drones or force a group of lings or something, but still lose all your mmf, and so be in pretty equal shape. getting past their sunken line isnt autowin.
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Normally my pride would limit me in a situation like this, trying to diminish this in some way or tell myself that I too could come up with such an idea.
That being said, this is simply too freaking creative for me to diminish in any way. Though I could bring up things like turret timings at higher levels and that it's a 1/20 chance of actually working the way intended really(at like, D rank)... But honestly, There is no reason not to do this. There's no downside. Even if you're caught in the act with lings, even if he watches you as you do it, he will only have a rough estimation of the progress of the spire and nothing more. Someone should find out the exact amount of lings to keep the HP of the spire stagnant. That would be brilliant.
I will probably use the term "redtooth" at some point, maybe in a vod.
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On March 04 2009 11:24 redtooth wrote:
The Forseeable Downfalls
- The Zerg player can not perfectly predict when the Terran will scan.
- If the Terran sees Zerglings near your Spire (or a lack of Zerglings directly outside his natural) he may know what's up (only if this becomes prominent... I may be getting ahead of myself here).
Hide the zerglings under an overlord and the terran might not notice it. However, if you attacking the spire during the scan, the terran may still hear the attacking sound effects and be suspicious of whats happening.
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i wonder if redtooth is secretly a terran player who wishes his iccup zerg opponents start killing the spire (or at least damage it) for him.
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Great, original, and hilarious idea. Can't wait to see some replays of people trying this.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
When I first read it I went "yeah and what if he scans seeing your lings attack the spire?" He might figure out what you're up to and you'll have a damaged spire and in some builds this might well trigger a sunken bust into spire snipe. But you say 6 lings get it down to 200 in 3 seconds so I imagine 12 lings will get it down in 1,5 (though Chill mentioned he only has 6 lings) which makes it so completely viable. I've read all the comments and love the enthusiasm. I can also imagine that IF this takes off and Terran players do get turrets up earlier because of this then, if you position your lings around the spire and he scans early a cancel and going fast lurker instead becomes even more viable. On the other hand, I JUST figured out how to time turrets depending on scanned-spire hp so I'm not happy with this at all t.t Anyway, this requires replays (preferably IdrA vs F91).
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
hahaha om gthis is best idea EVERRRRRR
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This is very clever and original and I appreciate the effort you put into the OP.
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maybe you could get a win due his falling off his chair after scaning your base only to see zerglings attacking their own spire.
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useless strategy 'cause good terrans always scan and start turret when spire is ended up...
I explain it better... if terran scouts 2 hatch well, his scan timing is at about 5 min so he will scan at about 5:30 min when spire is over... same thing if terran scouts 3 hatch... his scan build timing would be at about 6 min and his scan at (always about) 6:30 min... never seen a good terran scans and starts turret when spire is half or 3/4 done...
just look at some good TvZ replay for check the timing of T's first scan and when he starts turrets...
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On March 04 2009 19:20 NrG.Vincent wrote:
useless strategy 'cause good terrans always scan and start turret when spire is ended not when it is 1/2 or 3/4 done
But that's the thing isn't it. When they scan and see it's at, say, 390 of 700 hp they know that it will be finished in ~40 seconds (13 seconds per 100 hp Spire) and put turrets up then. Now, if the spire has been REDTOOTHED this will throw their timing off. + Show Spoiler +God why am I even replying... GO READ THE OP YOU SCRUB
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On March 04 2009 12:15 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 11:43 Raithed wrote:
your post rocks but honestly, just, honestly. i dont think its worth it. HOWEVER, if you just play with the same person, do the same fucking build over and over AND THEN change it up, then yes, you can add in the surprise factor and buttfuck him, but of course, this depends on his scouting and whatnot. raithed said it was bad, it must be good i'll try this out sometime~
lololol
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On March 04 2009 19:23 Pholon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 19:20 NrG.Vincent wrote:
useless strategy 'cause good terrans always scan and start turret when spire is ended not when it is 1/2 or 3/4 done But that's the thing isn't it. When they scan and see it's at, say, 390 of 700 hp they know that it will be finished in ~40 seconds (13 seconds per 100 hp Spire) and put turrets up then. Now, if the spire has been REDTOOTHED this will throw their timing off. + Show Spoiler +God why am I even replying... GO READ THE OP YOU SCRUB
rotfl wtf are you saying? terran starts build turrets 1:20 min before mutas come? did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
come on guys this strategy is nice but useless... terran scans when spire is OVER and the picture shows a spire and not a "blob"... just watch at some Flash's TvZ and his scan timing...
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This is a great Idea. Yet one more thing to mix in to try and fool the terran.
A tip for the terrans who would face anything like this is, you don't actually only look at the spire while scanning the zerg. Check for the larvas. If his spire is far from done and he has saved 3 larvas from each hatchery than something is up.
When i play nowadays i mostly look at the larvas to find out the timing of his mutalisks.
However I'm sure this will work alot until people know it exists.
Vincent. While often its true that terran scans when spire is finnished there are many games where the scan will be too early depending on lots of different things, such as denied scouting etc.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On March 04 2009 19:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However I'm sure this will work alot until people know it exists.
And after that it will leave people guessing (depending on larva-respawn timing I guess)
On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 19:23 Pholon wrote:On March 04 2009 19:20 NrG.Vincent wrote:
useless strategy 'cause good terrans always scan and start turret when spire is ended not when it is 1/2 or 3/4 done But that's the thing isn't it. When they scan and see it's at, say, 390 of 700 hp they know that it will be finished in ~40 seconds (13 seconds per 100 hp Spire) and put turrets up then. Now, if the spire has been REDTOOTHED this will throw their timing off. + Show Spoiler +God why am I even replying... GO READ THE OP YOU SCRUB rotfl wtf are you saying? terran starts build turrets 1:20 min before mutas come? did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
No that's not what I am saying and yes I do know that. Please think about it for a while before posting kthx.
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On March 04 2009 19:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
This is a great Idea. Yet one more thing to mix in to try and fool the terran.
A tip for the terrans who would face anything like this is, you don't actually only look at the spire while scanning the zerg. Check for the larvas. If his spire is far from done and he has saved 3 larvas from each hatchery than something is up.
When i play nowadays i mostly look at the larvas to find out the timing of his mutalisks.
However I'm sure this will work alot until people know it exists.
Vincent. While often its true that terran scans when spire is finnished there are many games where the scan will be too early depending on lots of different things, such as denied scouting etc.
yes its true but as you said a good terran doesnt check only the spire's hp but the saved larvas amount too 'cause of the fake spire->lurker start or something like this... well this is 'cause this strat is useless... a good timing terran finish his turret 5 seconds before mutas comes not when spire is 2/3 completed...
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On March 04 2009 19:58 Pholon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 19:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However I'm sure this will work alot until people know it exists. And after that it will leave people guessing (depending on larva-respawn timing I guess) Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:On March 04 2009 19:23 Pholon wrote:On March 04 2009 19:20 NrG.Vincent wrote:
useless strategy 'cause good terrans always scan and start turret when spire is ended not when it is 1/2 or 3/4 done But that's the thing isn't it. When they scan and see it's at, say, 390 of 700 hp they know that it will be finished in ~40 seconds (13 seconds per 100 hp Spire) and put turrets up then. Now, if the spire has been REDTOOTHED this will throw their timing off. + Show Spoiler +God why am I even replying... GO READ THE OP YOU SCRUB rotfl wtf are you saying? terran starts build turrets 1:20 min before mutas come? did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs? No that's not what I am saying and yes I do know that. Please think about it for a while before posting kthx.
sorry guy you dont understand nothing of TvZ timing... stop talking about something unknown to you then, tnx
you will see that every c/c+ or more ranked terran will agree with me
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Wow great idea i still dont get it why ppl think this is only usefull in zvt i think zvp timings would be much more usefull then zvt.
Toss scouts you with sair and see spire half done and doing some harras and out of nowhere 8 muta 1 scourge pop out while he still think he is safe with no cannons in base
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United States7166 Posts
On March 04 2009 11:45 AttackZerg wrote:
Wow.
I am not lying when I say that this is 100% going to be used by me sometimes for the rest of my broodwar career.
I had no idea!
wow!
SEEEEEEERIOUSLY how the hell has this remained unknown? SO GOOD OMG
i cannot wait till i see the first time its used in a pro game
hopefully saved for use by savior or jaedong in a final series!
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Belgium9947 Posts
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Insane that new strategies are still made up, but I think progamers have thought of this. The reason why it's not used is that good terran players have the right timing when they scan so that the scan hits almost exactly when the spire finishes. It will only work at low levels.
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What if you use this along with something like a 12gas timing for super fast mutas, but fake that the spire is out at a standard timing? ^_^
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Well I would be still suspicious about 2-3 larva idling near main hatchery when terran scans.
But you can still fake even vs good terrans, just start your spire little bit later. When they scan time when it should be done its not done (you already damaged it), still win win situation.
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On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:
did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
Mr tvz timing should start playing on fastest instead of normal game speed, because it definitely doesnt take mutas 40 seconds to spawn.
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I heard someone saying something about 2port wraith. I would laugh so hard if a zerg did this and then faced 2port wraiths.
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On March 04 2009 21:40 Jonteman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:
did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
Mr tvz timing should start playing on fastest instead of normal game speed, because it definitely doesnt take mutas 40 seconds to spawn.
25 game seconds it is. Though I think he took the flight time in account, hence around 40.
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I will use it every game too!
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On March 04 2009 21:44 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 21:40 Jonteman wrote:On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:
did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
Mr tvz timing should start playing on fastest instead of normal game speed, because it definitely doesnt take mutas 40 seconds to spawn. 25 game seconds it is. Though I think he took the flight time in account, hence around 40.
yes of course... 40 seconds before that mutas attacks after that spire morphed up...
On March 04 2009 21:32 Zoler wrote:
Insane that new strategies are still made up, but I think progamers have thought of this. The reason why it's not used is that good terran players have the right timing when they scan so that the scan hits almost exactly when the spire finishes. It will only work at low levels.
I said the same thing
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Pfff OP is very concerned with his name getting attached to the move...while it is good theorycraft, let's first see if it has any practical use, i doubt it. Then we'll see about the name.
Since the building time of a spire is 75 secs, 4/6 of that (needs to be over 200hp) is 50 secs of time window. But that's when he scans at 600 and you got it exactly down to 200. Now take away 8 secs for the duration of comsat, he can't see the spire morphing in, and you're left with 42. Also, take away the time it takes 6 lings to do 400 hp of damage (although you can't do all the damage in 1 go, but let's say you can), which is about 6 seconds. Now you're left with 36 seconds in which the terran should scan you. That's not a huge time period.
That is the absolute best situation. But Terran will not always scan at the right moment. He can scan at any time the spire is building. If he scans it while the spire should be at 300 hp, the difference is only 1/4 x 50 is 12 seconds. The later he scans, the better things will be for you. Downsides:
- You need to keep your lings in your base.
- You need to micro to keep the HP of the spire as close to 200 as possible.
- You need to spot a scan as you can't attack the spire for the next 8 seconds.
- You will be left with a weaker spire at the end.
- You must have eliminated scouts from your base.
If the Terran will put turrets up at that very latest moment, this move may prove useful. But oftentimes he'll get them 15 seconds early and that will make the move have a limited chance of success. I'd rather compare it to the 10/9 drone trick, useful in some odd cases but not standard practice. And that move doesn't carry the name of it's creator either, LoL.
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On March 04 2009 22:08 NrG.Vincent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 21:44 ZerG~LegenD wrote:On March 04 2009 21:40 Jonteman wrote:On March 04 2009 19:30 NrG.Vincent wrote:
did you know that mutas requires 40 seconds for spawn from eggs?
Mr tvz timing should start playing on fastest instead of normal game speed, because it definitely doesnt take mutas 40 seconds to spawn. 25 game seconds it is. Though I think he took the flight time in account, hence around 40. yes of course... 40 seconds before that mutas attacks after that spire morphed up... Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 21:32 Zoler wrote:
Insane that new strategies are still made up, but I think progamers have thought of this. The reason why it's not used is that good terran players have the right timing when they scan so that the scan hits almost exactly when the spire finishes. It will only work at low levels. I said the same thing
...but if they mess their timing up at all and don't see it complete, or just miss seeing it complete (matter of seconds, right?), they're going to be confused.
And the point is, this isn't exactly a big RISK. You're not all-in or anything. You're not sacrificing eco, production, etc.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
You gotta say though, "Man, I redtoothed my spire the other day and raped this Terran on ICCup" has a ring to it :p You raise some good issues but I'm not sure I agree with the 8 second scan window since Ts wont spend all of that gazing at the spire (though they might hear the lings attack it if the window is still up but out of vision - not sure about this)
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It might work at high level, but unforunately i wont benefit too much from it, but a player who has insane mutamicro can immensly benefit from the fact that the turrets gonna be delayed just a bit
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LOL.
Honestly it was my first reaction to this thread, but in reality this is a really good idea. As a terran that knows proper turret timing, if I scan my opponent and see a spire that is 25 seconds late I'm going to put my turrets up late too. I think this could really mess up a terran, but I would only use it on maps like destination, othello, or medusa where there are areas that are difficult to get turrets up/rebuild them so that you can really reap the benefits from late turrets. The only beef I have with it is...
1. I usually scan a zerg around 100-200 hp spire, so unless a terran scans you at the perfect spire timing when its 200+ hp behind its not gonna do anything.
2. AFAIK zerglings are good for scouting information against T. If you are fucking around with your spire and not getting optimal map vision it seems to me you are putting yourself at a high risk of getting sunken broken.
3. You're probably fucked if he goes 1 base dropship and kills it..
All in all though it seems like it would help in a standard game, but in reality all you are doing is helping terrans learn perfect turret timing . It may win you a game or two though.
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On March 04 2009 12:39 Conquest101 wrote:
Oh man, this is pretty cool. Here's a question: anyway to work something like this into pool timing vs Protoss to make toss Nexus before forge and screw them over? Like have 1 or 2 drones attacking it until your lord sees probe come in, than the toss sees what he thinks is a just started pool and a hidden hatch? Goes Nexus first, gets owned (or worse case, is forced to cancel nexus and put cannons if he already went forge). Drone count and stuff would mess that up, unless 9 hatch at hidden expo, 9 pool is a viable build <.<.
I dunno, random theorycrafting, someone figure something good out.
I see 3 problems with this.
1. You're wasting 2 drones attacking your own pool instead of mining minerals. The idea in the OP doesn't sacrifice anything to do the build. Yours does.
2. Even D players have a pretty firm grasp on timing in early game, along with drone count.
3. It will only be applicable against FE.
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This move should banned. PvZ timings are hard enough as it is.
I'm the type of guy who would get utterly raped by a move like this. If I see a spire at 200 HP, I'll delay my cannons a bit, and if the mutas come before the cannons are done, it's usually GG from me.
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Slightly OT but now we can see why IdrA never does anything creative, innovative, or slightly clever plays in his games - and still lose every tourney he's been in.
And now he's trying to destroy creative play altogether just because he can't! 
some sad shit
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2009 23:56 chiam_ace wrote:Slightly OT but now we can see why IdrA never does anything creative, innovative, or slightly clever plays in his games - and still lose every tourney he's been in. And now he's trying to destroy creative play altogether just because he can't! some sad shit
where did this come from? furthermore, what the fuck are you talking about?
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On March 05 2009 00:16 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 23:56 chiam_ace wrote:Slightly OT but now we can see why IdrA never does anything creative, innovative, or slightly clever plays in his games - and still lose every tourney he's been in. And now he's trying to destroy creative play altogether just because he can't! some sad shit where did this come from? furthermore, what the fuck are you talking about?
From a few pages back.
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honestly a lot of people are saying this is very situational... and it is, but the thing is there are pretty much no drawbacks and even the smallest advantage it yields will make it worthwhile, it won't work very often but it will sometimes
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Waiting to see a rep of this in action! Any pros plx, who can post their rep?? Seen many good players saying they will try this out.
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what if terran catches you attacking your spire?
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United States7166 Posts
then he prolly thinks you're batshit insane
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United States7166 Posts
On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea
On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding!
why is there insulting going on in this thread
doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this
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Hi
I didnt read the 8 pages(i read all the main topic though) but :
I'm pretty noob but what if the terran proxies the zerg, the zerg doesnt know he proxied and the terran kills the spire that has only 1/3 of her HP xD ? (read the italic part again)
But this is very interesting, but I assume that will be only useful on B/A matches... Not in D/D+ like me obviously o_o !
HF~~
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On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this
Agreed.
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I think less people got the spire timing down against two hatch, hence it should be easier to get away with it if you're doing a two hatch. Though you have to do it the macro way with a quick third instead of an early speedling break.
Vincent's making a pretty good point, don't just brush it off. Most good terrans know their timings anyway, which makes it more useful at lower level. However, lower level zergs are less likely to benefit from the advantage as their muta micro is worse.
Also, very many zvt builds requires you to have your group of lings out in the field, all the time, which efficiently prevents you from redtoothing. If you don't use ling builds that no problem of course.
Lastly I'd like to say that this is probably the coolest original idea I've ever read about in the strategy forum, even if it'll rarely work.
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On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed.
Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history
also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I'm going to start calling this move The Idra out of spite
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I personally think it's a great idea (there's a tag [I] next to the title, it's not like we should all use it). It's been said to have a low risk/medium reward, which is true. Even if they scan your spire next to your hatchery, you can keep making units from your main while saving larva from your other hatches. You can also hotkey your zerglings and click s if you hear him scan. As long as there aren't too many lings next to the spire it wouldn't be suspicious.
There are all kinds of different ways you can try to implement this tactic in practice, and this thread is only providing us with the general idea. It's up to each person to decide if they want to use it or not.
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Anything that adds an element of uncertainty to your timing, especially when it's practically for free, is a good thing. It's more something that benefits the zerg race as a whole. If this becomes more popular, then when terrans DO scout a late spire, he might think you're faking him out and build turrets before he needs to.
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On March 05 2009 04:39 redtooth wrote:
to vincent: lol don't try to play off the "yeah I said 40 seconds because the muta's will be flying to the base duh" crap. we know you are stupid, just don't make yourself look stupider. maybe we'll heed your professional advice at that point.
I dont understand why you are starting to insult me now but nvm, you can't hurt me... anyway as I said: a good terran with a good timing always scans when spire is done or mutas are morphing from eggs 'cause he needs only few seconds for builds turrets... this strategy will never works and zerglings are important for other things (harrass/scout) instead of attack the spire... for example if you don't use zlings for scout costantly the terran army he can easily walks on you with the A-Yu-Mi strategy... sorry but you can just say good bye to your fame and glory's dreams
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On March 05 2009 02:15 Lapynou wrote:
Hi
I didnt read the 8 pages(i read all the main topic though) but :
I'm pretty noob but what if the terran proxies the zerg, the zerg doesnt know he proxied and the terran kills the spire that has only 1/3 of her HP xD ? (read the italic part again)
But this is very interesting, but I assume that will be only useful on B/A matches... Not in D/D+ like me obviously o_o !
HF~~
The only problem is, why would he proxy and wait until the spire is up to attack?
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On March 05 2009 06:07 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy. Man I was really joking about being in SC history. As cool as SC is, it's not like I can go up to anyone I know in real life and go "Do you know redtoothing? I invented it!" And as for being defensive, it's natural I'm going to defend this technique (and myself in the process) because I created it. I mean it's my brainchild after all and I would love for it to succeed whether I get credited in the end or not. I guess I took the whole "redtoothing" thing a step too far (was trying to keep the idea fun in the process) but I honestly did get frustrated when people just continually bash the idea without having tried it, using arguments that were mentioned a million times before. They seemed more intent on shutting down the idea than considering it (the guy who said something about the progress bar being a prime example, Vincent and his sexy timings another). Put yourself in my situation, I'm sure you would have felt similar even if it wasn't as extreme as I felt it. So please try to understand. Your being overly defensive and snapping at people too much...
Your not fully considering all the objections, and you MADE this idea without trying it first so don't get mad at those who bash it without trying it.
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mmhmm
everybody likes bashing new idea for kicks on forums everywhere.
just wait it out and if a pro tries it and wins everybody will shut up.
i think it's a pretty good idea until it's been seen once or twice. because Terran's will just start putting down turrets when they see the spire at anywhere above 150 since no zerg will take its hp any lower.
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Someone should make a translation to Korean and post it to Fomos. The way that other guides have been translated the other way around ^_^. Get the idea out there for pro-gamers (and korean crazy ass good ones) to play with. I am eagerly awaiting WL VOD's where (fake) fake delayed spires are used (or any other redtoothing strategies).
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Netherlands6142 Posts
No. Why don't they do that now? Because they want to put them up as late as possible. So you're not gonna oppsite-of-delay (can't think of the word) the turrets because he might be redtoothing since he might not be. It will be confusing still.
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Tried this three times vs different opponents. It didn't turn out effective for me in all 3 games. I got scanned in the act twice, and one game an scv scouted my spire when I just put it up and it never got scanned anymore after that.
Blocking off any scv's from scouting your base is crucial. I also think the odds that you'll be scanned while 'delaying' your spire are bigger than your opponent actually scanning when your lings are done with the job. Next to that I found myself being scared of destroying my spire, which made me focus on it so much that my eco got slightly 'hurt' from it.
Personally I don't think it's really worth it and won't be trying this again. Would be great to see someone using this effectively.
A+ class theory crafting tho
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As long as this is the fake delayed spire thread, I'll bring up the Lonely Fake Delayed Spire build (if it doesn't exist already).
It only works on maps with neutral creep like Colosseum. Pretty straightforward; works best at non-diagonal spawns. Normal lair timing, then start your proxy spire at the diagonal-from-terran base (the lonely spire!). When it's 40-60% done or so, you start your fake (2nd) spire at an easily scannable location in your main. When the proxy spire finishes, you cancel your fake spire and make your mutas. In this build, you not only have the advantage of the spire appearing correctly in the build animation (if the terran knows the stages), but you have him confused if he scans before you started the 2nd spire, perhaps wasting another scan trying to find it. You also have the great disadvantage of losing your proxy spire if he scouts it for some reason. At that point the build becomes the Lonely fake fake delayed spire build, since your 2nd spire becomes your actual, delayed spire!
There is no risk, however, of your opponent scanning lings attacking your spire or noticing the health bar doesn't match the build animation. There is the added drawback of the 2nd spire drone not mining for a minute, plus the 25% lost in canceling it. You will also eventually lose your spire unless you expand there next with lurkers and maintain map control. Should work at D/D+ level when they don't have the timings down, and assume you don't either, but also for some reason they don't play super safe and make turrets 2 minutes early.
Another possible addition is to make a hydra den in your main so they at least scan something in the time in between lair completes and 2nd spire begins morphing. Making your natural hatch your lair might help offset the need for this by possibly hiding your lair timing.
I should also note that I have no idea how different zvt builds are on Colosseum, so this might be even more useless than it at first glance appears.
+ Show Spoiler +I just wanted to post what I thought this thread would be about. If anyone actually tries this strat, I of course take full credit for your loss/win
OH! If you want to REALLY confuse them, cancel the 2nd spire if you see them scan it, then type something like "shit!" He'll think you really messed up, and won't make any turrets at all!
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Sorry LonelyMargarita, but that's just horrible It'd be a waste of your precious gas & minerals.
Also, this 'trick' already exists by building a den & spire, confusing your opponent whether you're going mutas or lurks.
There's no reason to ever build 2 spires, except if you want to dual grade your mutas. I doubt that's actually viable in a serious game though.
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This idea is complete bullshit...wont win you a single game, neither against a newbie, cause he wont even notice the spire beeing hp-reduced(btw your word for it sux too) nor against a decent player, who first has a good shot at seeing the lings attack the spire wth his first scan and second will place turrets in a proper timing anyways...so yeah if you get lucky his turrets finish like 15 seconds later than usual, this means they finish right in time to fend your mutas off, given he is no korean pro-gamer.No terran at D-B ranks will time his turrets perfect, so they most likely finish slightly BEFORE the mutas actually arrive...delayed spire means nothing to their timing, despite maybe delaying them for few seconds to get extra scvs or whatever...your mutas still wont do shit, as the turrets will come early enough to stop them, just as normal, but if you get droped your spire will just disappear from your base and you will left with the thought that you should have invested your apm better than on this rubbish,...
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I've been lurking on TL for a while, but I felt compelled to join just so I could post and say how totally awesome this idea is. Way to go redtooth!
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On March 05 2009 07:42 done wrote:
This idea is complete bullshit...wont win you a single game, neither against a newbie, cause he wont even notice the spire beeing hp-reduced(btw your word for it sux too) nor against a decent player, who first has a good shot at seeing the lings attack the spire wth his first scan and second will place turrets in a proper timing anyways...so yeah if you get lucky his turrets finish like 15 seconds later than usual, this means they finish right in time to fend your mutas off, given he is no korean pro-gamer.No terran at D-B ranks will time his turrets perfect, so they most likely finish slightly BEFORE the mutas actually arrive...delayed spire means nothing to their timing, despite maybe delaying them for few seconds to get extra scvs or whatever...your mutas still wont do shit, as the turrets will come early enough to stop them, just as normal, but if you get droped your spire will just disappear from your base and you will left with the thought that you should have invested your apm better than on this rubbish,...
hmm i think you should tone it down a little!
Just a hint if you wanna stick around ~
btw: I think this is really quite original.. Havent ever tried/seen it and I think well the chances of it working would be like 1%... But if it would work it'd go straight to pimpest plays #1 2009... awesome idea sure hope to see it sometime ^_^
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I might play some games as zerg just to try this out. Great idea man!
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On March 05 2009 07:26 Smorrie wrote:
Tried this three times vs different opponents. It didn't turn out effective for me in all 3 games. I got scanned in the act twice, and one game an scv scouted my spire when I just put it up and it never got scanned anymore after that.
This is nice, two random ICCup guys going "wtf is he doing" hehe. Seriously though, how many lings did you use? If 6 lings only need 3 seconds to get 400 hp off, the chances of this happening seem very slight.
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On March 05 2009 07:42 done wrote:
This idea is complete bullshit...wont win you a single game, neither against a newbie, cause he wont even notice the spire beeing hp-reduced(btw your word for it sux too) nor against a decent player, who first has a good shot at seeing the lings attack the spire wth his first scan and second will place turrets in a proper timing anyways...so yeah if you get lucky his turrets finish like 15 seconds later than usual, this means they finish right in time to fend your mutas off, given he is no korean pro-gamer.No terran at D-B ranks will time his turrets perfect, so they most likely finish slightly BEFORE the mutas actually arrive...delayed spire means nothing to their timing, despite maybe delaying them for few seconds to get extra scvs or whatever...your mutas still wont do shit, as the turrets will come early enough to stop them, just as normal, but if you get droped your spire will just disappear from your base and you will left with the thought that you should have invested your apm better than on this rubbish,...
As valid as your points are, it's generally better to come up with criticisms constructively. The OP was very modest and cautious in introducing this, so it's only gm to reproach his idea similarly.
Don't be an ass.
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On March 05 2009 00:29 chiam_ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 00:16 Chill wrote:On March 04 2009 23:56 chiam_ace wrote:Slightly OT but now we can see why IdrA never does anything creative, innovative, or slightly clever plays in his games - and still lose every tourney he's been in. And now he's trying to destroy creative play altogether just because he can't! some sad shit where did this come from? furthermore, what the fuck are you talking about? From a few pages back.
plz stfu. idra is a good player k? and how freakin creative can a pro terran get? i dont see many people bashing flash about not being creative. come to think of it...when has a terran been "creative" recently? no...proxies are not creative...
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On March 05 2009 07:40 Smorrie wrote:Sorry LonelyMargarita, but that's just horrible It'd be a waste of your precious gas & minerals. Also, this 'trick' already exists by building a den & spire, confusing your opponent whether you're going mutas or lurks. There's no reason to ever build 2 spires, except if you want to dual grade your mutas. I doubt that's actually viable in a serious game though.
Against mech, it's pretty standard to get dual spire to keep up in upgrades.
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On March 04 2009 13:43 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2009 13:20 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
I'm mulling over some possibilities with regards to redtoothing your Spawning Pool in ZvZ to feign a 12pool when you really did a 9pool; it would require your opponent to not count your Drones but I'm sure every once in a while they wont notice that 2-3 are missing and will drone too hard to fight off your initial Zerglings. If the enemy zerg isn't hanging over your base with an overlord (basically four player maps with a late scout) then you could theoretically redtooth your spire again and throw off his unit composition. For example: you have an earlier spire but he sees your redtooth'd spire and thinks your spire timings are the same. Chaos ensues.
The only potential downside to this is the high probability of them just killling your weakened Spire. In ZvZ it's a lot more likely than due to a ZvT runby or drop.
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I can see this working in a 2 hatch buid, especially if you make a lot of zerglings first, its not something common so its hard to find a terran that knows the precise timing of it.
Though 'redtoothing' just sounds gay, sorry.
But i would use it more often zvp than zvt for sure.
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@Pholon: Yeah.. I didn't use all 6 because in 2 cases I didn't have them and the one time I did I was too scared to use all 6 of them >.<
@Zyarktodt: You can hardly upgrade from 1 spire already at that point of the game
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On March 05 2009 09:23 Smorrie wrote:@ramen247: IdrA used to have a nickname on west called Creative)
no i didnt
skew used a name similar to that a while ago
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On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy.
are you kidding
try reading the context of those quotes. i explained what was wrong with his idea rationally with no insults and he gets all defensive and tries to make dumb jokes and blow it off.
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K this is getting ridiculous. If you like it use it. If you don't like it don't use it. Call it w/e you want (I will just use "fake spire" b/c that sounds better ).
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Silly redtooth, I didn't suggest doing this to a hydralisk den, I simply suggested to add a hydralisk den while doing this. It gives you a backup, and another chance to trick the Terran.
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On March 05 2009 09:48 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 09:23 Smorrie wrote:@ramen247: IdrA used to have a nickname on west called Creative) no i didnt skew used a name similar to that a while ago
Hm.. I always thought that was you (talking about 5~ years back or so..), but I guess I was wrong. I'll have to ask ret about that one ^_^
I think that creative) guy actually was artofglory.
edit: ok, that was skew indeed
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United States7166 Posts
On March 05 2009 09:50 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy. are you kidding try reading the context of those quotes. i explained what was wrong with his idea rationally with no insults and he gets all defensive and tries to make dumb jokes and blow it off.
stop trying to justify your poor behavior, your insults are too harsh and uncalled for. nobody else wants to read that, take it to PM if you must but seriously you need to just start posting better
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This would so work on me
I would scan a 1/2 spire instead of a 3/4 spire and think zerg messed up with his timing and think i can build turrets later and then his mutas come when my turrets are building.
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On March 05 2009 12:11 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 09:50 IdrA wrote:On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy. are you kidding try reading the context of those quotes. i explained what was wrong with his idea rationally with no insults and he gets all defensive and tries to make dumb jokes and blow it off. stop trying to justify your poor behavior, your insults are too harsh and uncalled for. nobody else wants to read that, take it to PM if you must but seriously you need to just start posting better
they really werent that harsh compared to other flames going around on this site...
like that time when 3/4 of tl.net was bitterly making fun of the chinese commentator... why were you there to defend the poor guy.
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Tried it earlier, didnt work.
Ill upload the replay if you want aswell, he knew the timings perfectly or turreted ahead of time because he doesnt scan me attacking, no lings near it and when he scans it,.ist at 200/600 hp.
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lmfao...i think the critics are turning out to be right...
ahahah...false alarm?
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On March 05 2009 12:11 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 09:50 IdrA wrote:On March 05 2009 05:03 DamageControL wrote:On March 05 2009 02:17 inlagdsil wrote:On March 05 2009 02:13 Zelniq wrote:On March 04 2009 14:38 IdrA wrote:
if you want people to listen to you it might help to stop being a douchebag
and to, you know, have a worthwhile idea On March 04 2009 14:42 IdrA wrote:
you're a failure at life and nobody will ever know or care about you or your ideas
just kidding! why is there insulting going on in this thread doesnt belong here people dont wanna read this Agreed. Yes, but the guy who wrote the post, while obviously intelligent, seems to be most interested in ensuring his name gets used in SC history also: He's very defensive and kinda pushy. are you kidding try reading the context of those quotes. i explained what was wrong with his idea rationally with no insults and he gets all defensive and tries to make dumb jokes and blow it off. stop trying to justify your poor behavior, your insults are too harsh and uncalled for. nobody else wants to read that, take it to PM if you must but seriously you need to just start posting better bit of a little girl arent you
btw slightly ironic that youve contributed nothing to this thread while i have and you're telling me to post better, no?
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Didn't read all posts sorry if this has been said but the green progress bar clearly shows the spire is nearly done, if you look you can tell it's about to come up, regardless of low hp.
You also depend on him scanning after you have dealt the damage, the lings have moved away and you are hoping his comsat runs out before the spire comes up. This is an incredibly narrow window of time.
It's a nice idea but I'm positive 99% of time will fail horribly.
Perhaps putting down 2nd spire at main/nat and hope he scans that one? Then cancel and pump muta from the spire that is up. I think this is a lot more likely to work....
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On March 05 2009 15:47 Reason wrote:
Didn't read all posts sorry if this has been said but the green progress bar clearly shows the spire is nearly done, if you look you can tell it's about to come up, regardless of low hp.
You also depend on him scanning after you have dealt the damage, the lings have moved away and you are hoping his comsat runs out before the spire comes up. This is an incredibly narrow window of time.
It's a nice idea but I'm positive 99% of time will fail horribly.
Perhaps putting down 2nd spire at main/nat and hope he scans that one? Then cancel and pump muta from the spire that is up. I think this is a lot more likely to work....
if you read the posts you'd have realized that you can't see the progress bar on the opponents' buildings
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I really like this idea. It's not like you have anything to lose anyway.
Another good way to do this would be to place it in your natural near a sunken, you can attack it with the sunk instead
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Guys, seriously, stop bashing idra. He made a very good point. If the Terran is good enough to cur corners on turret timing, he's going to know the spire timing pretty well too, i.e. he will scan when the spire finishes.
However, like I said before, there's little that you could lose by attacking your spire with sunken/lings, so it's still a very cute idea
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In all honesty, spire is already a fragile building. If a T dropship lands on Z main and gets a chance to attack the spire, its dead either way whether it was initially damaged or not. And try to remember that the spire might have fully regenerated by the time T's dropship came.
I might not do this in ZvP because of suicidal speedlot run-ins and constant sair scouting but in ZvT, this is very beneficial
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This idea is pretty awesome, especially as the risk is not really that high - outside of spending some concentration and whatnot. [Putting it in the main should help against anyone killing it, but it is a risk to note]
How useful it is tho, I'm not sure. Despite the Idra hatred, I think he makes a good point as far as the timings are concerned for pros. It would be fun to try, and I'm hoping someone comes back with a funny replay about it or story from playing someone they knew [who was reasonable].
Even still, not even Idra could deny the idea was cute.
It's the kind of idea that makes you think of other uses for it, even if you come up with nothing in the end. haha
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On March 05 2009 15:56 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2009 15:47 Reason wrote:
Didn't read all posts sorry if this has been said but the green progress bar clearly shows the spire is nearly done, if you look you can tell it's about to come up, regardless of low hp.
You also depend on him scanning after you have dealt the damage, the lings have moved away and you are hoping his comsat runs out before the spire comes up. This is an incredibly narrow window of time.
It's a nice idea but I'm positive 99% of time will fail horribly.
Perhaps putting down 2nd spire at main/nat and hope he scans that one? Then cancel and pump muta from the spire that is up. I think this is a lot more likely to work.... if you read the posts you'd have realized that you can't see the progress bar on the opponents' buildings
GRrr
I apologise for getting it wrong.
Regardless the fact that you are hoping he scans in that window of time... I think this will never work. Your thoughts?
So it seems it almost certainly won't work but since you don't lose anything (unless he does certain build) you may as well try it. Neat idea I guess. =/
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Netherlands6142 Posts
I think people are discussing the Zerg side of the matter too much, while I think the topic brought it down, really, to a Terran's reaction to this. As for myself, I check the hp on a Spire to time turrets, but I am D+ (at most). Other people (IdrA about Koreans and Smurrie/arb about their respective opponents) say Terran gets turrets up at the exact time, regardless of hp of Spire when scanned. So maybe we can discuss how to make it viable the Terran is depending on Spire hp finishing at scan because he can't rely on normal timing.
Thing I can come up with is some kind up with is very zergling-heavy harrass in the beginning, leaving it open when you'll switch to muta/lurker. This won't work on ramp-maps ofc and delaying mutas for real will give T opportunity to get vessel out etc so I dunno. Just a thought.
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I don't think it would work simply because at higher up levels, progamer's know the exact timings of the spire and stuff and when they scan at a certain time, the spire should be at this much health, else something tricky is happening
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Yes yes yes, so try to think of what kind of move or situation would throw this timing off. Try n be constructive.
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I just tried it.. He called me a hacker
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To all of you trying out there, my guess is actually that this would work better perfectly executed on a pro-level. Thats where the turret timings are executed perfectly and thats where all seconds and small differation in information matters. A pro-gamer zerg might have the exact timing on when a scan will go off based on his view of the first medic or whatever and can time his "redtooth" in a way to fool the terran. Terran scans and suspects extra lings or something and will be extra careful.
A thinkable scenario is that he will be afraid to move out because he's scared that the zerg is doing mass lings before the spire (if zerg somehow can keep him from scouting with an scv) and thus the zerg can get hold of an expansion without having it preassured and in the best case get to terrans base befgore his turrets is up. This is probably executed best if you're doing some kind of 2hatchery build where the scans have to go off before the spire is out, because 2hatch lurker is very dangerous and the terran might want to move out with a small group in time to block zergs choke or whatever.
Combine this with dual tech like luxury vs leta, and other tricks and somehow the terran might actually get fooled.
I don't know yet but its possible.. most of the time though, terrans will not scan until the spire is finnished, but many things can happen during a starcraft game.
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I think a progamer terran is more likely to look at the drone count rather than the spire timing if he suspects mass lings. Speed before lair is what delays tech, and if he went speed first there is no reason to not attack before scans are up.
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On March 05 2009 22:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I think a progamer terran is more likely to look at the drone count rather than the spire timing if he suspects mass lings. Speed before lair is what delays tech, and if he went speed first there is no reason to not attack before scans are up.
yeah, but i guess mixed with dual tech or whatever it might set terran abit off and suspicious.
Alot of things can happen and while this might not be anything near revolutionary it could still work sometimes. Its an insteresting idea and has to develop before getting into use properly imo.
also why are you not on vent? ^^ haven't seen you in a while.
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this is like double mindfuck if zerg adds hidra den and delayed spire even some good players can be tricked with this
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i think the time window where you need the terran to scan is too small.
to be effective the terran has to scan when its above 90%.
Basically there is a time window of like ~ 10 seconds where the terran has to scan.
its very unlikely.........
then again you have nothing to lose^^
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This may work one time but I think is more likeable to not cause good T check the larva beside the spire, I mean he sees a spire with 200hp but see all the larvas being "save" zerg only save the larvas when he is about to use them so the first time a T see it he may not get what is going on, but from then he will not fail again to get it.
I do think this can work 1 time in the pro escene but onlye once, maybe in a final bo5 you can trick your opponent if he has never see it before, but never will work again, so I dont think it is a "revolution" or anything, just something you can do once in a lifetime, it depends on you to use it in the right time ^^.
Idra, I do think you have a point, the thread author is way to defensive about the idea and cant take a bad opinion about it, sad thing he only want/expect to receive good comments about it.
Is a cute idea, may work once, not more.
GL for those trying it, maybe I am wrong, what it really needs is to get tryed, redtooth as a suggestion you should try it yourself or look for a good zerg to try it for you several times and watch the results. Also stop the insults, just ignore them, will make a better thread.
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Wow dude this is a fantastic idea!
When I first read it, it brought a big smile to my face
Great job dude, it's always really fantastic to see creativity in the game after 11 years just like back in the Boxer era.
Serious kudos
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For those of you saying this will "fail horribly," please elaborate exactly what the risk is. So you have a weakened spire at worst, right?
The "fail horribly," then, it's really just that on the off chance he drops your main before your spire rejuvs a few hundred hit points, the spire will be easy to kill.
It's not like this is an all-in build or anything.
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My best guess is, the main detractors in this thread are jealous.
StarCraft has been played for so long, and has been so deeply analyzed that coming up with anything totally original, is quite feat indeed. I imagine jealousy from people who have desired to bring something new to the game, but just haven't.
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rofl?
great idea
...kinda sketch but i lovee the theory behind it
:D :D
redtooth-ing
cute
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The problem with the idea is not that it involves a great risk. The problem is that it is not worth doing despite the low risk. The chance of gaining anything from it is just too slim for it to be worth your time. And like with everything in life, time is a commodity.
This has nothing to do with whether or not the idea is innovative. Infact, I commend Redtooth for trying to be innovative since StarCraft is a game where new things can potentially come up even after more then a decade of existance. Heck, if this idea was at least somewhat feasible, I would have been among the first to use the expression "Redtoothed" since I am one of the few people who refer to 2-hatch Lurkers as the Cholera build. And who knows? Maybe one day Redtooth will think of an idea that has great practical implications. I just do not think this is the one.
The fact that the idea has not seen much success in practice also does not bode well for it`s future prospects.
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As with everything, it has a risk and a reward.
For example going FE, you sacrifice early game safety to come in with a stronger mid- and end-game.
The sacrifice here is time, and a weakened spire- in exchange for a very small chance that you can delay your oppenents MT by a small amount.
But the better the gammer, the less time it will take them. I'm sure a pro gammer could probably pull this off, only saccrificing about 2-5 seconds of game time.
Though, IMO, the prospect of someone scanning, and seeing you raping your own spire, makes it worth it.
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On March 05 2009 21:14 Patrio wrote:I just tried it.. He called me a hacker
See? Completely worth it.
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you have got a great bright mind out there, young fella, my congratulations, I can see you going very far in life!
i don't think what idra says about the timing of pros is true - just read his response in rekrul's thread about the scans, SC sense, etc and see how poor the kid's mind is.
this is just another trick in zerg's arsenal of tricks, so this will definitely contribute in TvZ's overall balance shifting a bit towards Z (read: if it's currently X vs 100 - x, it will become X + Eps)
if this becomes popular, then terrans may start investing to turrets more then they do it nowdays - like they see a normal delayed spire at 200 and start making their turrets in a hurry. pretty funny to me
good job!
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Very good idea imho, will give it a try a least !
But just a point : In any matchup, particulary in ZvZ, have a weaken spire can be a bit risky...
Ex : In ZvZ, if he succeds to sneak into your main some lings, he can kill the spire in few seconds and you can't do nothing whereas whit full life spire you have a bit more time to react and possibly kill his lings whit your mutas / lings.
Edit : Same goes whit Suicide Zealots in ZvP...
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On March 06 2009 06:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:See? Completely worth it.
ROFL
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On March 09 2009 07:39 Dewey101 wrote:
Very good idea imho, will give it a try a least !
But just a point : In any matchup, particulary in ZvZ, have a weaken spire can be a bit risky...
Ex : In ZvZ, if he succeds to sneak into your main some lings, he can kill the spire in few seconds and you can't do nothing whereas whit full life spire you have a bit more time to react and possibly kill his lings whit your mutas / lings.
Edit : Same goes whit Suicide Zealots in ZvP...
I don't see why you'd need to fake a delayed spire in zvz....
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12 pages of comments and still not even 1 single replay showing this in action and be some kind usefull, not even the OP has one replay showing the effeciency of this.
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I would release mine (where he called me a hacker) but Im a D player so its not worth it.
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On March 10 2009 19:01 Patrio wrote:
I would release mine (where he called me a hacker) but Im a D player so its not worth it.
I dont think any player above C+ rank would do that fake spire thing. (I could have said A just to be sure but ye you get my point, any good player wouldnt do this)
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thought the level of play must be high enough for him to know when to scan and also to cut back on turrettiming :/
i offraced 3 games and tried this, they didnt even scan my base so it didnt work.. i played on D level. Its impossible on D level coz terrans only turtle with turrets and bunkers no matter what you do;)
I guess abit higher rank is more doable, specially combined with 2hatch and dualtech.
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This is a really funky idea. Good work OP. A 10 year old game and people are still coming up with awesome new stuff. I love it.
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Good job OP!_! I think it is really worth, and may cause several headaches.
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Kind of late to the discussion, but i just wanted to point out that protoss builings wouldnt work, since the shileds would be depleted before you can get to the health part. A koean progamer should definetly use this once in a bo5 (jaedong, i'm looking at you) . It would be one of those boxer strategy; works once but never again, but it would be the most thrilling thing to watch ever..
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On March 10 2009 19:49 StylishVODs wrote:
thought the level of play must be high enough for him to know when to scan and also to cut back on turrettiming :/
i offraced 3 games and tried this, they didnt even scan my base so it didnt work.. i played on D level. Its impossible on D level coz terrans only turtle with turrets and bunkers no matter what you do;)
I guess abit higher rank is more doable, specially combined with 2hatch and dualtech.
Terrans are busy following your vods and putting up turrets at 64 supply no matter what :D
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Ou man great job! You completely revolutionized Starcraft!!! This strategy is a good strategy!
Couple this with Drone Micro
Introduction
As a teamliquid nerd i have time to think about new great strategies. In SC Games sometimes i have time for some additional micro. The Drone Micro idea was born.
The Idea
In some builds you are low on minerals at certain times. Especially if the enemy is doing some timing attack and you need more minerals build units to hold up the attack. If you can bare some micro at that time, use Drone Micro. Just send as much drones as you can back to the mineral patches by hand, use a shorter path than the AI would do. With that way, you can gather more minerals in less times.
The Possible Epic Fail
I never tried this strategy out. Beware of an epic fail.
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On March 13 2009 23:07 eci wrote:
Ou man great job! You completely revolutionized Starcraft!!! This strategy is a good strategy!
Couple this with Drone Micro
Introduction
As a teamliquid nerd i have time to think about new great strategies. In SC Games sometimes i have time for some additional micro. The Drone Micro idea was born.
The Idea
In some builds you are low on minerals at certain times. Especially if the enemy is doing some timing attack and you need more minerals build units to hold up the attack. If you can bare some micro at that time, use Drone Micro. Just send as much drones as you can back to the mineral patches by hand, use a shorter path than the AI would do. With that way, you can gather more minerals in less times.
The Possible Epic Fail
I never tried this strategy out. Beware of an epic fail.
A silly attempt at being smart, I guess... Pathetic... Just quit it, ok?
I like the idea of the delayed spire. It reminds of an article I read here about mind games. When Stork was playing against Flash and Stork said: Omg, I'm so gonna rape your armory build! Then he lost in under an hour to 3 timing pushes. That's when you know you're in someone's head.
This fake health of the spire I guess would work on levels where people might use mind games. On the low levels where like 90% of the guys (like me) are trying to follow up builds and time their buildings not to what they see but ny what they think they most probably are going to encounter (like I play PvZ and I have some scouting and I do believe the guy's going 3 hatch muta to some shit and I think I am safe to do the 4 gate 2 archon with +1 zeal push. Bu then the guy has done some lurker tech and expanded once more and he stops my push cold, etc, etc...) this is not gonna work.
But as stated before - it won't hurt you, it's cute, it's new and IF if does work it's gonna be so fun.
I am all over those new ideas/builds.
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should just be a little joke, to do a more serious comment: it is a good idea to think about the fake spire and faking/confusing the enemy in general, but after some considerations the fake spire technic is as _practical_ as the Drone Micro strategy
( btw: a few years ago, some semi pros REALLY used the drone micro strategy, i.e. stearing some drones manually in the first minute of the game, and you REALLY can gather more minerals ( similar to place pylons in the mineral lines to improve the path of the drones ) but is _very_ dangerous (if you make a mistake) and the benefits are roflcopter, see fake spire )
This all reminds me to a funny fake strategy of Boxer:
We are on a 4 Player Map, Boxer scouts his enemy first, then he sees the scouting peon of the enemy running towards his base, he LIFTs up his CC to the (i guess it was a mineral only) expension _behind_ his main, the enemy scouts it and thinks there is none, Boxer blocks the scouting peon at the ramp of another empty potential start position -> funny face a few minutes later after his enemy attacked the fake starting point, too bad boxer lost this game.
If anyone reminds of that match, please give a link, i wanna see it again!
PS: Of course, the joke was motivated by the strange initial "i wanna be epic post"-post
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16987 Posts
It was Boxer vs. Yellow on Blade Storm, I think. It was in one of the original SCL pimpest plays pages.
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Just saw this so sorry for the late reply, but this is an amazing idea :O
I mean, obviously it's not going to greatly impact gameplay, but it's still pretty awesome and I can't believe I've never thought about it
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this means you have to lay the spire earlier then usual right?cause you have to make it look like it's delayed
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hmm I propose this:
When your spire starts building, select one zergling to attack the spire, and then put an overlord over that ling. That way, even if a scan occurs, there will be no indication that the spire is being damaged because the overlord will cover the ling.
HOWEVER: I have not read the entire thread, and thus, do not know the timing on how to make the spire look like it has less health than it should. I do not know if one ling attacking the spire from the start of its morph will cause the spire to have ~200 health by its completion.
anyway, it's just a suggestion, and if this idea has already been suggested, then screw my lack of reading the entire thread ^^!~
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On March 19 2009 15:37 7c.nEptuNe wrote:
hmm I propose this:
When your spire starts building, select one zergling to attack the spire, and then put an overlord over that ling. That way, even if a scan occurs, there will be no indication that the spire is being damaged because the overlord will cover the ling.
HOWEVER: I have not read the entire thread, and thus, do not know the timing on how to make the spire look like it has less health than it should. I do not know if one ling attacking the spire from the start of its morph will cause the spire to have ~200 health by its completion.
anyway, it's just a suggestion, and if this idea has already been suggested, then screw my lack of reading the entire thread ^^!~
you can hear the zergling attacking it though
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The thing is stuff like this does work even in progaming. I remember a game ZvP where the Z made an extractor, collected 100 gas, killed the extractor, researched ling speed and killed the probe before speed was done. Toss must have been thinking - I am ok, no speedlings. And a few seconds later - BAM and you're dead.
We should never discourage innovative ideas.
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On March 19 2009 19:17 hymn wrote:
The thing is stuff like this does work even in progaming. I remember a game ZvP where the Z made an extractor, collected 100 gas, killed the extractor, researched ling speed and killed the probe before speed was done. Toss must have been thinking - I am ok, no speedlings. And a few seconds later - BAM and you're dead.
We should never discourage innovative ideas.
normally toss should have scouted the z gas in time unless they played on BGH or smth... Or Z went some super early gas build to pull it off before getting scouted, which will alter his build timing greatly and alert any good toss that somethings coming up. Its an all-in move, and a bad one at that.
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On March 19 2009 19:17 hymn wrote:
The thing is stuff like this does work even in progaming. I remember a game ZvP where the Z made an extractor, collected 100 gas, killed the extractor, researched ling speed and killed the probe before speed was done. Toss must have been thinking - I am ok, no speedlings. And a few seconds later - BAM and you're dead.
We should never discourage innovative ideas.
the game on zodiac?
he lost that because he couldnt kill the probe till he had ling speed
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On March 13 2009 23:35 hymn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2009 23:07 eci wrote:
Ou man great job! You completely revolutionized Starcraft!!! This strategy is a good strategy!
Couple this with Drone Micro
Introduction
As a teamliquid nerd i have time to think about new great strategies. In SC Games sometimes i have time for some additional micro. The Drone Micro idea was born.
The Idea
In some builds you are low on minerals at certain times. Especially if the enemy is doing some timing attack and you need more minerals build units to hold up the attack. If you can bare some micro at that time, use Drone Micro. Just send as much drones as you can back to the mineral patches by hand, use a shorter path than the AI would do. With that way, you can gather more minerals in less times.
The Possible Epic Fail
I never tried this strategy out. Beware of an epic fail. A silly attempt at being smart, I guess... Pathetic... Just quit it, ok?
Drone micro sucks. However, SCV micro actually is somewhat viable and it speeds up the minerals quite a bit. Especially during the spam period you can just send the SCVs to mine manually and you'll have like 16-24 minerals more than normal as you start your first depot. Pretty insignificant but if you'd just spam otherwise, why not?
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On March 19 2009 21:33 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2009 19:17 hymn wrote:
The thing is stuff like this does work even in progaming. I remember a game ZvP where the Z made an extractor, collected 100 gas, killed the extractor, researched ling speed and killed the probe before speed was done. Toss must have been thinking - I am ok, no speedlings. And a few seconds later - BAM and you're dead.
We should never discourage innovative ideas. the game on zodiac? he lost that because he couldnt kill the probe till he had ling speed
Was the z player flower in that game?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
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Random zerg theorycraft that I came up with, figured I'd just bump this instead of starting a new thread.
Misinformation can be a very powerful tool and this is just another example of it.
Say you want to hydra all-in while playing ZvP. If you want to succeed, you'll need to deny scouting information, since if they see you're doing a hydra all-in they can prepare for it and deflect it.
But what if instead, you allowed them to scout part of your base and appeared to be doing a standard build?
Specifically, how about allowing their scouting probe to see you put down a hydra den at the normal timing for it when you've already got one up? I am proposing a fake normally timed hydra-den to accompany a hydra all-in for ZvP.
Here is my thought process in terms of how this would optimally work:
- Do the normal build for the hydra all-in, but make sure you keep your hydras out of sight.
- Allow their scouting probe to make it to your natural, where it sees a hydra den being put down at a normal timing, then kill their probe (or deny it entrance into your base with a sunken) without using your hydras. Maybe a smart player is suspicious of you not denying his scout with your lings.
- The protoss player will think that you are playing a standard game and will not add defenses. When your attack comes he will be unprepared and you will run over him.
So if misinformation is so powerful, why don't terran players fake-mech by putting down two factories and then going bio? That is, what is so special about this particular idea? The reason no terrans put down two factories as a fake is that two factories is fucking expensive. A hydra den, on the other hand, is relatively inexpensive, and you might even be able to cancel it if you can get rid of the scouting probe quickly.
Think of it this way - the money you spend on the hydra den would otherwise be another hydra. If this works, you are basically giving up < 2 hydras to stop them from making more cannons; a good trade in my eyes.
Obviously this won't work on some levels of play as at lower levels your opponents might not be smart enough to scout or react properly. It's possible that a sunken is necessary to deny scouting if you can't rely on lings to get rid of the probe scout and that that sunken is so expensive that it weakens your attack too much.
It might be that no such timing window for this idea works. I am not a very good player, so I don't know whether this is the case.
This came to me as a combination of Luxury's comments about his 2hat hydra all-in of Best in WL playoffs and Leta's loss ( ) to Luxury in the 5set of their MSL series.
Anyone have thoughts as to whether this is viable? Has this already been thought of? I would love to see replays of toss players getting owned by this
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Is nobody responding because they're not reading it and I should make a new thread or is this idea just so incredibly brain damaged that I am now being ostracized?
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medium risk, no drawback strategy.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2rglw6w.png)
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2ywfuyb.png)
![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/fc5y61.png)
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/24cfvb5.png)
![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2duwb3t.png)
![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/206jwon.png)
![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/apk7yh.png)
