EPTSo is it worth the investment to get a queen and 7 scourge solely for the purpose of infesting a CC when they lift?
Is it worth it to scourge and infest CCs?
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
So is it worth the investment to get a queen and 7 scourge solely for the purpose of infesting a CC when they lift? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
you can either get used to including hydralisks in your standing army, or focus on killing all of the scvs it's definitely not worth the investment in scourge and a queen don't throw the word 'imba' around | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 28 2009 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes, if you can infest it using 8 scourge its worth it no question about it. maybe for coolness but if the game is close enough that he's worrying about the cc living or dying he really shoudnt be spending 400 gas on things that suicide into a building with 1500hp there's also the larva factor, and the effect those used-up scourge have on the terran's aggressiveness every once in a blue moon i see a zerg do this to me, and it's an instant reaction to move the fuck out and raze some shit with my now MUCH safer vessels | ||
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 28 2009 22:32 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: maybe for coolness but if the game is close enough that he's worrying about the cc living or dying he really shoudnt be spending 400 gas on things that suicide into a building with 1500hp there's also the larva factor, and the effect those used-up scourge have on the terran's aggressiveness every once in a blue moon i see a zerg do this to me, and it's an instant reaction to move the fuck out and raze some shit with my now MUCH safer vessels But it only takes 7 scourge at most, which is just 300 gas. You don't think thats offset by the terran losing 400 mins and all the lost mining? | ||
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stanley_
United States816 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 28 2009 23:45 stanley_ wrote: Only when you aren't behind in unit count. What does unit count have to do with this? | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
But it only takes 7 scourge at most, which is just 300 gas. You don't think thats offset by the terran losing 400 mins and all the lost mining? Yeah, I never thought of that. It takes 7 scourge AT THE MOST. That means usually, your lings and lurks do enough damage to the CC that it only takes 2-3 more scourge to bring it down to 750 hp. | ||
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 28 2009 23:45 sixghost wrote: But it only takes 7 scourge at most, which is just 300 gas. You don't think thats offset by the terran losing 400 mins and all the lost mining? assuming 6 scourge (654 damage to a cc, so you need 96 damage from another source before you can infest [i think the required hp is <750?]) and 1 queen, that's 400 gas why you'd make a queen for the sole purpose of infesting a cc you just smashed 6 scourge into, i don't know this is not a cost-effective way of hitting a terran's expansion. you are better off letting the cc live, focusing on the scvs, not making a queen, and using those six scourge to kill vessels | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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LordWeird
United States3411 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: You're assume those 6 scourge would even do anything later in the game. And what else would be to point of having the queen? I'm arguing that this is a way to deal definate damage to a terran. Half the time when you attack a T's expo they just lift the CC and the scvs run away losing maybe 3-4 while the T comes back to clean up the lings and goes right back to mining.assuming 6 scourge (654 damage to a cc, so you need 96 damage from another source before you can infest [i think the required hp is <750?]) and 1 queen, that's 400 gas why you'd make a queen for the sole purpose of infesting a cc you just smashed 6 scourge into, i don't know this is not a cost-effective way of hitting a terran's expansion. you are better off letting the cc live, focusing on the scvs, not making a queen, and using those six scourge to kill vessels Sure if you could guarentee those 6 scourge would kill 3 vessels later on in the game, then no it's not a good use of the money, but realisitically 50% of scourges never do anything but get shreaded by mnm, and knowing that you are looking to do this, what is stopping you from just not making 1 extra ultra or lurker, and making 6 more scourges to replace these. This take away one of T's greatest strengths, and doesnt cost way too much. And hydras? What? | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:05 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: assuming 6 scourge (654 damage to a cc, so you need 96 damage from another source before you can infest [i think the required hp is <750?]) and 1 queen, that's 400 gas why you'd make a queen for the sole purpose of infesting a cc you just smashed 6 scourge into, i don't know this is not a cost-effective way of hitting a terran's expansion. you are better off letting the cc live, focusing on the scvs, not making a queen, and using those six scourge to kill vessels Ensnaring the SCV's would be a much more cost-efficient way to ruin their economy, but this should only be if you're fucking with the Terran, not serious. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
its not worth doing if you're behind on unit count and you desperately need those 6 scourge to defend against a counter, and you shouldnt build scourge with the intention of scourging the cc that is inevitably going to be lifted off. but, a not all that uncommon scenario is that say, its a game on python, you're 9, terran 12, you have an exp at 6 and he has his main+natural, he moves out with his units to try to take out your 6 exp then you backstab with lurker ling, he has enough to defend the ramp but not the exp, sends home scvs immediately and liftoffs almost immediately before sending home the units that were out. in this scenario, if you have 6 scourge and a queen, it is most definitely worth taking the cc.. you end up cutting his income in half for a significant period of time. its not worth it if you're really low on money (say, you went 3 hatch defiler rush with lurker ling and you're basically just going allin with one attack), in this case you're building scourge to take care of vessels /dropships, and because you are going allin, whether his expansion cc lives or dies isnt important- if he lives, he kills you anyway. | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
Cost of Queen's Den: 150 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Queen: 100 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Command Center: 400 Minerals Watching tears of humiliation swell up, overflow, and freely stream down the creases of his agonized expression as his head crunches softly against his keyboard and the last echoes of his intense button mashing micro resonate and fade into oblivion; Hearing the three Korean commentators of fate chant the most dreaded two letters of the alphabet, terminating your opponents final contract; Smelling the sweet scent of Korean school-girls gone wild as they all uncontrollably climax in unison and the green scourge juices splashes against his flaming command center at your single effortless mouse click. ..... Priceless --- Except you're not a Korean pro gamer playing for show on live TV  | ||
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Vex
Ireland454 Posts
at this point, the terran expansion gets hurt, your way ahead, youv'e dont alot of damage to his army to get this far, so chances of a counter are slim, dont worry about larva. you have a queen. which means your ready to hive tech since you've bought this much time. mayb even an xpo losing a CC like that is great for you, you'l also have a full HP cc to float back and either scout, or make something that will keep him on his toes for a while. at the cost of all that gas, during the time of the attack, and the aftermath, you'l have paid for this and taken a valuable asset to the terran. its a Great idea in my view. i might even start using it :D hide your queen though.. | ||
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Vex
Ireland454 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:34 Railxp wrote: Cost of 6 Scourge: 75 Minerals, 225 Gas Cost of Queen's Den: 150 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Queen: 100 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Command Center: 400 Minerals Watching tears of humiliation swell up, overflow, and freely stream down the creases of his agonized expression as his head crunches softly against his keyboard and the last echoes of his intense button mashing micro resonate and fade into oblivion; Hearing the three Korean commentators of fate chant the most dreaded two letters of the alphabet, terminating your opponents final contract; Smelling the sweet scent of Korean school-girls gone wild as they all uncontrollably climax in unison and the green scourge juices splashes against his flaming command center at your single effortless mouse click. ..... Priceless --- Except you're not a Korean pro gamer playing for show on live TV i disagree with your synopsis, but that post is fucking gold. im now your fan. ROFL :D <3 edit: and from a chinese guy too your english is outstanding :D | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
Definately do it, I do it too | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
Depends a lot how many bases the terran has, and how far from each other they are. If, let say, terran is mined out in his main and half dry in his natural, yes it worth to spend this gas on his expo, cuz you cut half of his income plus you probably delay him in the long run from taking his fourth. Depends also a lot of how your own econ is at this moment, and his vessel count. Maybe not worth to waste scourges if he has a huge vessel cloud. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
However, if : 1. T is playing 1 base, or he has only one base left mining because his other bases are depleted, then do it. The time it takes him to get a new cc up/over is the time he is not mining/producing at all. 2. If the cc is already damaged from your attacks + you already have a queen around, and it only takes a few scourge to finish the job, it's worth it. In late game I usually make 1-2 queens for such opportunities, not for the purpose of scourge combos, but just in case if his cc is damaged, there is the option of gosu infestation available. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
youre not really talking about destroying the command center, youre talking about infesting it. if you wanna do that, that is another story. dont crash scourge into a CC. youre talking about trading 100 minerals and 300 gas for a CC. now the cost of youre queen. now you gotta defend this thing to use it? hydras cost less, can kill if it lifts. save your scourge for dropships. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
Terran has map control and is constantly agressive. The most you can do about his third is usually sneak a small group of cracks there and maybe kill 3-4 scvs before the terrans next rally wave arrive/the scvs run If you can _kill_ the cc in this situation it sounds totally worth it, even if it's 5-6 scourges and a queen. It will essentially leave him with no mining base at all, and the lack of mm reenforciments for a short whil might give you the window you need to drone a bit and turn the tide. | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
On January 28 2009 23:39 tdotkrayz wrote: Wow, some conflicting views here. Not sure who to trust. On January 28 2009 22:30 Chill wrote: No. Trust Chill. Look at that confidence! | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
On January 28 2009 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes, if you can infest it using 8 scourge its worth it no question about it. lol | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On January 29 2009 08:53 Archaic wrote: Trust Chill. Look at that confidence! But Drone is the resident Queen expert. Strategy forum mod vs Queen Expert. I'd go with the queen expert in this case. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 28 2009 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes, if you can infest it using 8 scourge its worth it no question about it. thats 300 for scourge 100 for queen and 100 for nest (assuming its mid game and your'e not going tier 3 yet) 500 gas total. that's like 4 extra lurkers or something. I dunno, if its better but hey it's worth trying a bunch of games to see how it does. I believe you need 6xx HP to infest, I'm gonna go find out right now. no its 750 so actually dependng on how much damage ur ground units do to the CC before it lives you only need 6-7 scourge If you did a good amount, 100+ obviously less socurge. This could totally be effective if calculated properly. But you also have to take into account the larva and time you need to put this into effect as well as the time lost from a terran CC being taken. The time when this would be most effective is if you break into a nat or 3rd terran base, if you have smashed this base you are effectively winning already anyways. CC takes 120 to build Q nest takes 60 larvas take 20 to spawn Q takes 50 to pop So i guess it depends on how saturated the minerals are and how much RpM the T is collecting to see if its worth it. | ||
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GrimAngel
United States416 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:34 Railxp wrote: Cost of 6 Scourge: 75 Minerals, 225 Gas Cost of Queen's Den: 150 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Queen: 100 Minerals, 100 Gas Cost of Command Center: 400 Minerals Watching tears of humiliation swell up, overflow, and freely stream down the creases of his agonized expression as his head crunches softly against his keyboard and the last echoes of his intense button mashing micro resonate and fade into oblivion; Hearing the three Korean commentators of fate chant the most dreaded two letters of the alphabet, terminating your opponents final contract; Smelling the sweet scent of Korean school-girls gone wild as they all uncontrollably climax in unison and the green scourge juices splashes against his flaming command center at your single effortless mouse click. ..... Priceless --- Except you're not a Korean pro gamer playing for show on live TV lmao, oh man, your post made my day  | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: well ok I always have a queen, so for me this is merely investing 6-8 scourge its not worth doing if you're behind on unit count and you desperately need those 6 scourge to defend against a counter, and you shouldnt build scourge with the intention of scourging the cc that is inevitably going to be lifted off. but, a not all that uncommon scenario is that say, its a game on python, you're 9, terran 12, you have an exp at 6 and he has his main+natural, he moves out with his units to try to take out your 6 exp then you backstab with lurker ling, he has enough to defend the ramp but not the exp, sends home scvs immediately and liftoffs almost immediately before sending home the units that were out. in this scenario, if you have 6 scourge and a queen, it is most definitely worth taking the cc.. you end up cutting his income in half for a significant period of time. its not worth it if you're really low on money (say, you went 3 hatch defiler rush with lurker ling and you're basically just going allin with one attack), in this case you're building scourge to take care of vessels /dropships, and because you are going allin, whether his expansion cc lives or dies isnt important- if he lives, he kills you anyway. yeah, if you're in a good position, you have the scourge to spare, and you have queen... definitely do it. it's fucking cool. that doesnt mean it's cost-effective or even a 'better' method of killing an expansion than other things | ||
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Ido
Germany661 Posts
 apart from that, he loses a lot of mining time - so yes, i think in many situations it can be good. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
However, if you REALLY need to kill that CC, you have a queen, and some scourge floating around, then sure, I guess it's an option. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 10:10 PH wrote: So...I think everyone will agree...in general, don't do it, and don't be stupid enough to PLAN to do something like this. However, if you REALLY need to kill that CC, you have a queen, and some scourge floating around, then sure, I guess it's an option. How can this ever happen if you don't plan on doing it? You don't end up with 8 idle scourge and a queen laying around a lifted CC by accident. | ||
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potchip
Australia260 Posts
Ask yourself this question: Will I be able to force a lift in the first place if I'm 500 gas short on army? Here I assume the lift is caused by a combination of ling and lurk, I mean if you somehow forced a lift in mid game when you can get scourges/queens with pure lings, that cc is virtually unprotected. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 29 2009 11:50 n.DieJokes wrote: Whats this about hydras like a "good player"? I never once played a ZvT (vMnM) and thought damn, some hydras really would have been awesome then. Side note, why would anyone go hydra lurk vs terran? How is that even possible, your spending as much gas as you are minerals, it must be lurk/hydra/ling right? And if your doing that whats the point of including the hydras? hydralurk is a viable option vs SK terran. You could argue that late game Terran has 3/3 upgrades but plagued marines are easier for hydras to kill than cracklings imo. Heavy defiler usage + hydralurk. If you have apm to spare, add queen for ensnare and all this infestion comes to you at zero cost | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 29 2009 11:52 koreasilver wrote: hydralurk can be very effective against terran if they're not going tank heavy. True. Hydralurk with plague when you play SK terran can be really scary. | ||
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dyos
United States108 Posts
Complications: 1. Larvae and resource usage. Why not spend it on lurks? 2. Turrets. Most terran put up turrets around their main and natural. They might around their 3rd. 3. Planning. This requires a strategic plan. You can't just run your army around the map. The terran will be at your door in either a blob, or everywhere on the map. You must somehow sneak an army LARGE enough to take down his rallied units, all the while successfully defending his field units. 4. Travel time. If you don't have the scourges on hand, that means you have to make some. At this point, the terran has lifted his CC to where his marines are, starting to resecure his base, or retreating his army. Your scourges must dodge his army, all the while your attacking units have to be kept alive. Terrans will try to retake their mining base ASAP. If you can do it, sure why not? It's not as simple as just scourge right click CC, queen invest and thats why you don't see it happening. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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404.Nintu
Canada1723 Posts
It depends entirely on... dozens of different variables. The quick answer is: There isn't a Yes or No answer to this question. Sometimes it's worth it. Just like how if you SK Terran and deny zerg a third gas you can trade vessels for scourge and come out on top. Resources, positioning, time, army size, strategy.. It just depends. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On January 29 2009 12:17 koreasilver wrote: I've been trying to figure out a solid build for hydralurk once I started playing on iCCup, but then mech terran flew in out of nowhere and so far I've only had the opportunity to use hydralurk once this season. It worked for the game, but the player was worse than me so it didn't satisfy me at all. look for the in_Dove vs type-b[s.g] series, he uses hydralurk really really well in all of them | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 12:28 Cloud wrote: Dont use hydralurk unless you suck balls at scourging vessels. Hydralisks are inferior to zerglings and you will only be able to use your army defensively until you reach hive. A SK terran can hold his ground perfectly fine vs a lair hydralurk zerg. Well, what I've been thinking of is to use lurkerling then switch to hydralurk after defilers if the terran is using sk terran. I just wish terrans would start going traditional TvZ again so I can experiment. 8/10 of the ZvTs I play nowadays is against mech. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 12:39 NoobsOfWrath wrote: look for the in_Dove vs type-b[s.g] series, he uses hydralurk really really well in all of them Where can I find the series? | ||
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renegade_zerg
Korea (South)525 Posts
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
worth -100 pts imo (boxer would do it) | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
what is the value of having this unit added to your army? wouldnt dropping a shit ton of them on siege/bunker durring a groud assault rule ass? is the sac of resources worth it if you can use this unit really well? "live for the swarm!!!!" | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:24 cUrsOr wrote: is it just me or has this whole 3 pages of posts not even mentioned the unit "Infested Terran"? what is the value of having this unit added to your army? wouldnt dropping a shit ton of them on siege/bunker durring a groud assault rule ass? is the sac of resources worth it if you can use this unit really well? "live for the swarm!!!!" I don't think i've ever seen them in game, but it's generally been decided (I think) that infested T takes way way too much gas. | ||
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
On January 29 2009 11:07 Loanshark wrote: If this thread gets closed it'll be tdotkrayz's 7th closed thread visible from the current list What's that supposed to mean? I make lots of shitty posts okay? I'm still learning. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
If I was the type of player who uses queens for ensnare or parasite or whatever anyway, I would definitely use it to infest the CC IF it was already in infestation life (66.6% or lower or whatever, [yellow health?]). But I wouldn't build extra scourges with the intent of suiciding them into the CC like that. I would carry a few hydras in my army and try to do as much damage to the CC before his army comes to clean up the mess(if he can at all). And if in that time my hydras do enough damage where I can infest it great, if not, then too bad. Really I don't see why it wouldn't be worth it if this is late game and you have swarm. He comes to save his base, you swarm with ultraling or lurkerling or whatever and you should be able to do enough damage to his CC so that you can infest it. Summary: If I don't need to build the extra scourges(aside from killing off vessels) then it is worth carrying a few hydras and a queen. I don't think it is viable to force him to temporarily liftoff his CC so you can scourge it and infest it before his main army which can obviously save his CC in time otherwise arrives. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
should be in the replay on gg.net, maybe here, reps.ru, etc | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:30 Liquid`Drone wrote: well ok I always have a queen, so for me this is merely investing 6-8 scourge Eri, you're the fucking king. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:53 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also, I'd like to add that it's 800 mins, because he loses a 400 mineral building and has to replace it before he has an expo again, so he pays twice. And you don't always have to invest 6-8 scourge either. Unless he is really good for this I don't see many Terran players lift their CC until it is in red/yellow health, so often there is no need for any scourges, just a queen. It's situational. The thread can basically be answered by "Sometimes yes, sometimes no" and then descriptions of when it's 'yes' and when it's 'no'. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:47 NoobsOfWrath wrote: should be in the replay on gg.net, maybe here, reps.ru, etc Hmm, I'll look around after my midterms pass by. Thanks for mentioning the series though, I'll definitely look at them. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 13:24 cUrsOr wrote: is it just me or has this whole 3 pages of posts not even mentioned the unit "Infested Terran"? what is the value of having this unit added to your army? wouldnt dropping a shit ton of them on siege/bunker durring a groud assault rule ass? is the sac of resources worth it if you can use this unit really well? "live for the swarm!!!!" Pretty unviable as they aren't cheap and because of how weak they are they usually die before killing anything. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On January 29 2009 14:00 koreasilver wrote: Pretty unviable as they aren't cheap and because of how weak they are they usually die before killing anything. Well they do run pretty fast. Yes marines stimmed would pick them off first usually but that is what DS is for. I would use them... | ||
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tdotkrayz
United States136 Posts
On January 29 2009 14:15 Grobyc wrote: Well they do run pretty fast. Yes marines stimmed would pick them off first usually but that is what DS is for. I would use them... What about putting them inside overlords and literally transforming the overlord into a carpet bomber? Imagine the chaos! 2-3 overlords raid a terran base and take out all the supply depots! | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 29 2009 14:40 Liquid`Drone wrote: infesteds are not worth it, their sole purpose is humiliation I disagree, 100 minerals 50 gas is not a bad price for 500 splash damage. As someone mentioned, you can use ovies to drop them in T's base. If you have the apm, you can do 3 different ovie drops at the same time with 1 infested in each on his scv line (assuming you get safely through) Thats 3 infested (300 minerals 150 gas) for at least 20+ SCVs killed. Or you could combine it with Swarm to engage his main army...the splash damage just rapes marines | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
infested rape at taking out CC. Something I found out the otherday as I used queens and got an infested terran... if you use the attack command queue, they automatically self detonate upon reaching their location... and since the splash dmg hits your own units, that WAS NOT cool. ultralisk insta kill | ||
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
king of queens first of all, why would your opponent lift his cc? because its under attack. if you're just using zerglings, then the cc is free. but wouldn't you have hydras or mutas there as well? unless you're specifically attacking a weakly guarded expansion with only lings and have scourges prepared to bomb the floating cc. normally when i have a queen available i'm able to damage the cc enough without having to resort to using scourges. if you're so ahead that investing 6-8 scourges is np, then by all means go for it. otherwise, use a more cost effective way to pimpest play. edit: On January 29 2009 16:58 FabledIntegral wrote: if you use the attack command queue, they automatically self detonate upon reaching their location.. patrol (or right click) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
On January 29 2009 16:07 AzureEye wrote: I disagree, 100 minerals 50 gas is not a bad price for 500 splash damage. As someone mentioned, you can use ovies to drop them in T's base. If you have the apm, you can do 3 different ovie drops at the same time with 1 infested in each on his scv line (assuming you get safely through) Thats 3 infested (300 minerals 150 gas) for at least 20+ SCVs killed. Or you could combine it with Swarm to engage his main army...the splash damage just rapes marines yes because you can just "do" this I honestly might be the player to infest the most ccs ever. ive built infesteds in more than 100 different games. ive tried to do all kinds of cute shit with them, with swarm, scv drops, supply depot drops, etc. in something like 5% of the time ive built them, its been worth it. ive had games where I built 29 infesteds and killed something like 14 marines and 2 tanks with them. | ||
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Forgottenfrog
United States1268 Posts
On January 29 2009 15:03 ghermination wrote: I've actually never seen a progame where infesteds were used. But still, It'd be cool. (Does anyone actually have a VOD of infesteds being used?) [Red]Nada vs Chojja Ace match Proleague + Show Spoiler + | ||
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wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On January 29 2009 17:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because you can just "do" this I honestly might be the player to infest the most ccs ever. ive built infesteds in more than 100 different games. ive tried to do all kinds of cute shit with them, with swarm, scv drops, supply depot drops, etc. in something like 5% of the time ive built them, its been worth it. ive had games where I built 29 infesteds and killed something like 14 marines and 2 tanks with them. thanks man, interesting to know. i was trying to imagine Infested Terran with Ling and Ultra under a Dark Swarm. if i ever get teh chance ill use it. but i can only imagine it being against a player youre already significantly defeating and are just using them to ground him into dirt. who knows though | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
But if you're really seeking improvement, doing everything textbook is the way to go and this wouldn't probably be recommended, so it's really up to your personal preferences it's fun being cute every once in a while | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:15 sixghost wrote: You're assume those 6 scourge would even do anything later in the game. And what else would be to point of having the queen? I'm arguing that this is a way to deal definate damage to a terran. Half the time when you attack a T's expo they just lift the CC and the scvs run away losing maybe 3-4 while the T comes back to clean up the lings and goes right back to mining. Sure if you could guarentee those 6 scourge would kill 3 vessels later on in the game, then no it's not a good use of the money, but realisitically 50% of scourges never do anything but get shreaded by mnm, and knowing that you are looking to do this, what is stopping you from just not making 1 extra ultra or lurker, and making 6 more scourges to replace these. This take away one of T's greatest strengths, and doesnt cost way too much. And hydras? What? Are you serious? 6 scourge wouldn't have anything to do in late game zvt? Are you a D- player? If you don't keep hydras with your army and you don't have scourge, vessels are going to rape the shit out of your lurkers, ultras, and defilers. ... sometimes scourge get shredded by mnm; this is due to bad scourge micro. You shouldn't be sending your scourge to their deaths when your opponents vessels are well guarded and his marines are preoccupied by your attack. Not to mention the fact that even if half of them are going to get shredded, that means half of them went off to kill vessels, where by the queen method none of them would have been killing vessels. As we saw in the chill tl attack ep, infested terrans don't really have enough health to be very useful because they'll just die to mnm before getting into range. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 22:01 cUrsOr wrote: thanks man, interesting to know. i was trying to imagine Infested Terran with Ling and Ultra under a Dark Swarm. if i ever get teh chance ill use it. but i can only imagine it being against a player youre already significantly defeating and are just using them to ground him into dirt. who knows though The Infested Terrans will just end up killing all your lings and ultras. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
i thought the splash dmg wouldnt hurt zerg units, kinna like a scarab. would be much better unit. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
Second of all, even if you have 6 scourges and a queen its not an "insta-infested-cc-no-risk-involved". If you aren't necessarily ahead and you just ran around with your army and harassed an expo to force him to lift, I'm fairly certain first thing Terran would have on his mind is either A. simply crush your main if possible or B. eradicate the threat at his expo (and if you don't have your scourges already at the expo waiting for him to lift then you're shit out of luck because marines will be there in an instant). Ultimately what I'm getting at here is you not only have to succeed at getting him to lift: you have to hit his expansion and hope its undefended or poorly defended or that your army can just walk over his and get to his expo (if that's the case just win the game and put the poor soul out of his misery). And if you make the scourge (assuming you didn't need them at the time for vessel control) and don't get the CC to lift, well at that time it's just a waste. If it is a close game etc and mineral counts are low but you happen to have the gas etc and the game is playing out something like you harass an expo he moves his army to defend it over and over again well then you could plan ahead, out smart him, and get the job done. Even if it doesn't necessary mean he's dead, perhaps he'll just leave because he's pissed he was made a mockery of. But if you ever did want to do the infest thing, something much more logical is just to make a queen. One (1). Cracklings bring CCs down pretty fast so odds are you'll be able to do enough damage to it before it lifts in order to infest it. ESPECIALLY if you keep the Terran's hands full with a diversion of sorts. Regardless, if you make a queen: make it somewhat worth while and don't just make its sole purpose to infest a CC at some point in the game. Use some parasites, ensnare maybe - if you use it well. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 29 2009 17:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because you can just "do" this I honestly might be the player to infest the most ccs ever. ive built infesteds in more than 100 different games. ive tried to do all kinds of cute shit with them, with swarm, scv drops, supply depot drops, etc. in something like 5% of the time ive built them, its been worth it. ive had games where I built 29 infesteds and killed something like 14 marines and 2 tanks with them. How about lord drops on the back of the army while you attack with ling/ultra. Think of it like zeal bombs. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 30 2009 01:40 koreasilver wrote: The Infested Terrans will just end up killing all your lings and ultras. Well instead you could just put 8 Infested terrans in an overlord and then send it into the terrans main and drop one by one so they auto-suicide on the nearest buildings :p | ||
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Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
On January 30 2009 09:39 Amber[LighT] wrote: Well instead you could just put 8 Infested terrans in an overlord and then send it into the terrans main and drop one by one so they auto-suicide on the nearest buildings :p That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: First of all, if you get the CC to lift off odds are you did enough damage to the Terran without needing to waste gas/larva on scourge and a queen. Most Zergs nowadays make a queen or two for ensnare purposes in mid game anyway, Queens nest is built anyway because of hive, and most non-Progamer Terrans are usually too distracted to lift up the CC instantly (maybe after crackling lowers the life a bit) , only a few scourges are needed imo. Really depends on the situation but I think people are overexaggerating the cost of infestation really. On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: Second of all, even if you have 6 scourges and a queen its not an "insta-infested-cc-no-risk-involved". If you aren't necessarily ahead and you just ran around with your army and harassed an expo to force him to lift, I'm fairly certain first thing Terran would have on his mind is either A. simply crush your main if possible or B. eradicate the threat at his expo (and if you don't have your scourges already at the expo waiting for him to lift then you're shit out of luck because marines will be there in an instant). Infestation or not, if he has the power to crush Zerg's main, infestation is not going to change anything. Just because you took out a T's expo does not mean he is always able to retaliate, its very situational. On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: Ultimately what I'm getting at here is you not only have to succeed at getting him to lift: you have to hit his expansion and hope its undefended or poorly defended or that your army can just walk over his and get to his expo (if that's the case just win the game and put the poor soul out of his misery). And if you make the scourge (assuming you didn't need them at the time for vessel control) and don't get the CC to lift, well at that time it's just a waste. You DO realize that ultralings can take out a pretty well defended T expo right? Combine Dark Swarm with ultraling and T needs lots of vessels and a bigger army to eliminate the threat. Don't assume that just because Z has the strength to overrun a well defended T expo automatically means that he is strong enough to end the game. There are many many games when Z has a superior ground army (ultraling + plague + swarm) vs (sk Terran) but the amount of Vessels T has allows it to slowly take out the huge Z army by irradiate with its inferior ground army. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:28 Dgtl wrote: That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT If you infested a CC chances are you're doing much better than your opponent. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:47 AzureEye wrote: 1. Most Zergs nowadays make a queen or two for ensnare purposes in mid game anyway, Queens nest is built anyway because of hive, and most non-Progamer Terrans are usually too distracted to lift up the CC instantly (maybe after crackling lowers the life a bit) , only a few scourges are needed imo. Really depends on the situation but I think people are overexaggerating the cost of infestation really. 2. Infestation or not, if he has the power to crush Zerg's main, infestation is not going to change anything. Just because you took out a T's expo does not mean he is always able to retaliate, its very situational. 3. You DO realize that ultralings can take out a pretty well defended T expo right? Combine Dark Swarm with ultraling and T needs lots of vessels and a bigger army to eliminate the threat. Don't assume that just because Z has the strength to overrun a well defended T expo automatically means that he is strong enough to end the game. There are many many games when Z has a superior ground army (ultraling + plague + swarm) vs (sk Terran) but the amount of Vessels T has allows it to slowly take out the huge Z army by irradiate with its inferior ground army. 1. At the bottom of my original post I stated making a queen & using it for ensnare or parasite etc would be viable - don't just make the queen for the sole purpose of infesting a future maybe-will-be-damaged-enough command center. 2. & 3. If the Terran isn't able to retaliate or defend the expansion, why even bother scourging? The command center was lifted, if it was harmed significantly enough - sure, infest it if you have a queen. If it wasn't damaged that doesn't mean you need to go and waste scourges to completely eliminate an already disabled expansion. If it takes just a single scourge or two and you feel like you can spare them, fine use scourges on it. Like FakeSteve I think said on the first page, SCVs mainly what you want to destroy. If you got his expansion to lift, I'm sure you took out a nice chunk of SCVs, if not all, at the expansion. Originally my point was its not logical to waste scourges on a command center unless A. the Terran is heavily relying on that expansion and you must take it out at that specific moment or the Terran will come, clear the expansion of your units, and re establish the expansion or B. you are far ahead enough where a few scourges/larva can be wasted without consequence. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 30 2009 12:09 Amber[LighT] wrote: If you infested a CC chances are you're doing much better than your opponent. I don't think I can agree with this. I think people are assuming that infestation takes too much time, and T army will wipe out your forces at his expo before you start your infestation. You can infest a CC without taking too much time to do it. People here are saying that you need to wait for the 6 scourges to produce, but I'd have to disagree. Scourges are used by Z players to patrol to pick off dropships, and a few more scourges lying around here and there is very common, especially if the Vessels are well-protected with marines and Z is saving them for an opening chance to strike at those vessels. I can understand that infestation symbolizes humiliation in pro games but it is also cost effective, because when Z strikes T expo, they can just re-land the CC and return the SCVs. CC might cost 400 minerals but the time spent to build a new CC equals loss of heavy mining AND gas time. On January 30 2009 13:28 Star.Dj wrote: 2. & 3. If the Terran isn't able to retaliate or defend the expansion, why even bother scourging? The command center was lifted, if it was harmed significantly enough - sure, infest it if you have a queen. If it wasn't damaged that doesn't mean you need to go and waste scourges to completely eliminate an already disabled expansion. If it takes just a single scourge or two and you feel like you can spare them, fine use scourges on it. Like FakeSteve I think said on the first page, SCVs mainly what you want to destroy. If you got his expansion to lift, I'm sure you took out a nice chunk of SCVs, if not all, at the expansion. Originally my point was its not logical to waste scourges on a command center unless A. the Terran is heavily relying on that expansion and you must take it out at that specific moment or the Terran will come, clear the expansion of your units, and re establish the expansion or B. you are far ahead enough where a few scourges/larva can be wasted without consequence. Look at these two scenarios: Scenario A: Zerg attacks T expo with army, T moves all his SCVs to his main, which lings have a hard time picking off because lings are not ranged fighting SCVs as marines are to moving drones. T lifts expo because he doesn't want it destroyed and moves it into his base. Zerg army is either: eliminated or pulled back because T did a counter attack elsewhere, and Z needs the rest of his army to defend it. T puts CC back and his SCVs back to work and his expo is fully up and running again. Scenario B: Zerg attacks T expo with army, T moves all his SCVs to his main, etc. T lifts expo, but scourges come to wear down the life, and a queen quickly shows up to infest it. T loses CC, he loses mining time and gas time because he has to rebuild a completely new CC in its place. T spends 400 minerals in doing so. Z loses price of 6 scourges (225 gas, 75 minerals) and T has 1 expo less for 1.5 minutes. Fully operational T expo filled with SCVs can acquire more resources than what Z has spent in 1.5 minutes, not to mention the price of the CC | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:28 Dgtl wrote: That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT Finish your sentence so we can tell you why it's not impossible. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
thats 900/400 in one easily killed 200 hp unit (actually overlord with 8 infesteds is the most expensive unit/drop combination in the game! ) | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
just use the gas+min you could have used on queen+scourge and tech up to freakin hive for chrissake. 3/3 ultraling + swarm will rape anything T can or will send at you | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 22:53 -orb- wrote: Well thanks for the talking down to me, that's always fun. Read more carefully, I said, you are assuming those 6 scourge will do anything valuable, as in, actually hit the science vessels, not just fly in and get shreaded like a good % of scourge do. And who the fuck keep hydras in there army in zvt? Unless you have 10ish hydras they dont do shit to vessels before they just fly away.Are you serious? 6 scourge wouldn't have anything to do in late game zvt? Are you a D- player? If you don't keep hydras with your army and you don't have scourge, vessels are going to rape the shit out of your lurkers, ultras, and defilers. ... sometimes scourge get shredded by mnm; this is due to bad scourge micro. You shouldn't be sending your scourge to their deaths when your opponents vessels are well guarded and his marines are preoccupied by your attack. Not to mention the fact that even if half of them are going to get shredded, that means half of them went off to kill vessels, where by the queen method none of them would have been killing vessels. As we saw in the chill tl attack ep, infested terrans don't really have enough health to be very useful because they'll just die to mnm before getting into range. It's just 6 scourge, you are acting like I'm suggesting sending your entire army of scourge to kill the CC, its not hard to replace 6 scourge. And tell that to the pro's who still losing tons of scourge while trying to kill vessels in zvt. There's so much to do in late game zvt you cant make sure ur scourge hit 100% of the time, thats just a stupid thing to say. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 18:25 wurm wrote: If you're so intent on infesting his CC, just focus fire a bit with lings until he lifts, then plague the damn thing. You think sending 6scourge and a queen into a CC is not possible, but you suggest sneaking a defiler queen and lings into a terran expo and plaguing it? Plague would take so long to do enough damage, you dont think the terran will come kill your queen or repair the CC int he 30 seconds this would take to get the hp low enough? | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 31 2009 03:20 DreaM)XeRO wrote: screw it just use the gas+min you could have used on queen+scourge and tech up to freakin hive for chrissake. 3/3 ultraling + swarm will rape anything T can or will send at you No one is suggesting doing this before hive, I mainly do it once im already at hive and have a good supply of gas going. This isn't some every game thing, but when the opportunity presents itself, I think it's definately worth it. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17727 Posts
On January 29 2009 12:39 NoobsOfWrath wrote: look for the in_Dove vs type-b[s.g] series, he uses hydralurk really really well in all of them Im pretty sure its an old game like 2004-06? Dont use outdated reps as an example Its like saying 1 fact starport is overpowered and show a boxer replay from 2001;;. The game constactly evolves where the strats of today can be useless tomorrow. Hydra lurk isnt viable these days because you need a strong eco to start and because terran timing these days is so much better you're going to be rolled over before your eco kicks in. Terran will notice you going hydra lurk and switch to 2 fact. Also terran mechanics are so good these days terrans going sk can fight headon vs hydra lurk. Its viable until you meet decent terrans. If you're starting out it might be easier to control than lurk ling. On January 29 2009 00:06 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: or, you know, putting some hydras in your army like a good player I dont see good players put hydras in their army. Besides scourge to keep the vessel count down literally all zergs use 1-2 mutas to kill plagued vessels. | ||
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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