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Note: This post discusses events in recent games; if you don’t want to be spoiled, read this post later (but be sure to read it).
Another note: I am a D- zerg player. Anything I say about timing should be taken with 30-40 grains of salt and a shot of tequila.
We've all seen the recent trends in TvZ. Terran metal. At first I thought it was just a fad, but it has become apparent that is something more. The bane of protoss, and now zerg as well. I'd like to make this thread in order to provide a place to discuss aspects of this type of game. I will mostly discuss it from a zerg perspective, because I’m a zerg player. Let's start with a description of what we've all been seeing a lot of recently:
There are a couple common openings. One is an early rax (8 rax I think) leading into a bunker rush. Usually, the terran commits only a few SCV's to the bunker rush, often only one or two; the purpose is to wound, not to kill. Also possible is an early wallin, so that terran can spend only a few resources on defense while teching quickly. For both, the idea is the same; tech as fast as possible, while preventing damage to yourself either through aggressive or defensive play. I will start with a discussion of the bunker rush games.
The bunker rush doesn’t win the game, because terran doesn’t commit to it. During the bunker rush, a factory is built at the terran main. With incoming vultures, zerg is forced to make a sunken at his nat. However, before the first vulture comes out, zerg usually has a timing window where T has a very few marines to guard his main base, and Z has 6-10 zerglings. So far, we have not seen anybody take advantage of this opportunity, because T knows his weakness, and blocks his ramp with 3-4 SCV's, and one or two marines.
Zergs have attacked this before, but it has never won the game by itself:
 Canata vs.  Jaedong on Destination (Winners game, MST group 11)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
EffOrt vs. Flash on Destination (Ace match in proleague)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
The zergs trying to break the terrans front ramp have had limited success, but they also have not expended very many resources on trying to utilize this timing window. It is possible that an all in zergling attack directly after the bunker rush could break the T's front and win the game. Since no pro zergs have tried this as of yet, I don't know if it will work. Since I suck at starcraft, I can't test it for myself with any reliability (I'd have lost to the bunker rush).
If the zerg does not try to break terran's front with zerglings, they still have the same window of terran weakness, but they can instead use it to pump drones. If the zerg commits to this route, he will need to get a sunk at his natural to defend against the first vulture, and a hydralisk den as well. Either will do, but it is safest to have both.
Games where the zerg has done this include:
Flash vs. maGma on Tears of the Moon (OSL group F game 1)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
fOrGG vs. Calm on Rush Hour 3 (3 set in proleague)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
If instead of a bunker rush, terran walls in, zerg will have a better economy. However, so will terran. The main difference is that zergling aggression against terran will have a much lower likely hood of success (i.e. pretty much zero).
Games where the terran has done this include:
go.go vs. FireFist on Tears of the Moon (OSL group C game 1)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
Flash vs. maGma on Medusa (OSL group F game 2)
+ Show Spoiler [Embedded VOD] +
After any early bunker shenanigans, the game will follow a fairly set route. The first vulture will be out for terran, and zerg will need more than just zerglings to defend. At a minimum, a single sunken colony is required (or hydralisks, but that requires more tech). So far, all zergs have opted for a single sunken colony and a hydralisk den. Driving off the first vulture is a good thing for zerg (yay for obvious understatements). Even if the first vulture is driven off, the zerg will have to briefly forfeit map control, first because of the threat of a vulture backstab , and later because spider mine research will be done, and hydralisks can’t move across the map without help.
Before I continue with my tiresome description of what we already know, I would like to toss in a bit of theorycrafting. At this point in the game, terran is too mineral-hungry to produce marines, because his natural should be going up. I believe that if zerg places an additional sunken colony or two, his natural would be sufficiently defended, and zerg could attack the terran main before mines are researched and tanks come out. With a hydraling attack, zerg could possibly break terrans ramp.
Another possibility is a one hatch mutalisk rush. Clearly, this is a do-or-die build, but I think that the timing would be good enough to deal a lot of damage before the first goliaths come out. This would also depend on whether you had been mining gas previously. While I don’t know the timing for 1 hatch muta against metal, my intuition tells me that if you don’t begin mining gas early, don’t bother to try. That’s what my intuition tells me anyway. My intellect tells me that I should encourage you all to try it, and then post replays, to see if it works.
Anyway, assuming that zerg plays a defensive early game, it will enter a new phase: the terran will have several vultures, mines will be researched, and overlord speed will not yet be completed. Zerg can't afford to attack terran, because of the risk of losing hydralisks to mines. Additionally, the zerg expansion will be significantly delayed, because of the roving vultures.
Zerg can clear a few mines with slow overlords, but often not enough to enable an offensive. Unless you plan for it, and string out overlords along a path to terrans base. Perhaps making extra overlords would be the correct choice in this circumstance, for the purpose of early minesweeping
While that is happening, terran has been researching siege, getting his first tank, and has his natural. Once the first tank with siege comes out, terran has a lot more time to do whatever he wishes. However, he is still vulnerable against mutalisks. Because of this, terrans usually put down their armory at about the same time as their second factory, and begin early production of goliaths.
By this point, there is too much variation to speak in specifics. Generally, there may be other weak points in the terran build, such as when the terran gets scan, engineering bays, and additional factories. The academy and engineering bay can come quickly after the armory and second factory, which defend against lurkers, but will also mean that the terran has less of a ground army. There is also a point where terran adds 2-3 extra factories, usually after the ebay and scanner. Perhaps that weak point can be exploited with a hydra/muta timing push. Also, since the build is gas-intensive, science vessels come late.
Overall, the mech trend has shown itself to be a very strong build, and a viable alternative to SK terran. What to expect varies with map; on Destination and the new OSL map Tears of the Moon, mech is common. Both maps have seen plenty of proxy barracks while Medusa has seen more wallins.
Generally speaking, the metal build seems to be fragile and defensive in the early game, but is very powerful in late game. Because of this, I think that the proper response is either aggressive play by zerg, or mass expansions. The vultures help prevent mass expanding, so I think aggression could be the only choice against a good player.
Like I said in the beginning, this was written with a mostly zerg perspective (ok, entirely). I would welcome a terran perspective on this. I would also welcome replays from someone who has tried out my theories. What are your thoughts?
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or just watch EffOrt vs fantasy
I'm pretty sure Effort goes 12 hatch, 14/15 pool into timing push before the stargate comes up...
ill have to look it up
But with your comment on early zerg aggressivness i will have to wholeheartedly agree. The T metal push is strongest mid- late game. But there is a HUGEEE PROBLEM with HUGEFUCKINGMETALARMIES. Mobility.
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What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
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On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
no its just fun to try something that can 1a2a3a instead of 1t2t3t1a2a3a...
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On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
its the concept of using different builds to keep zerg at low econ + few bases that has revolutionized the matchup i believe... not sure though since i dont know much about mech vs z years ago..
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I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran.
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On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran.
So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st?
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I also think it's because the new maps, especially destination, encourage mech play. It's very hard to flank a terran on destination because of the bridges. And when the Terran pushes it's extremely hard to stop.
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it's because of new map. Try mech on luna and see how successful you will get.
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On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st?
Yes.
Yes it has.
+ Show Spoiler +on a more serious note, i think the terrans have gotten close before with vult pressure into 2port wraith and similar builds, but they never really combined true good early prssure with a golitank followup until recently
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Im amazed as to how powerful this build is mid game and how vulnerable it is early game.
I never knew how effective that ball of Goliaths can be against Zerg, i guess its because they negate the map control that the Mutas give to the Zerg by allowing the Terran to actually being able to leave his base, plus the mines really restrict the Zerg movements even after speed overlords enter the scene, because they always need an overlord with each army and with a bunch of Goliaths running around and killing them that might be hard at some points, so any mistake by the Zerg can cause a mine to go off and take a lot of units. And adding up the fact that speed Vultures really hurt the ability of the Zerg to expand in the early middle game, because even if their harass is not vey effective it still forces them to mass sunk to defend expansions.
And from what i have seen, the Zerg mid game army just get raped by metal, Lurkers are just not effective without Swarm, lings have a lot more troube because of the high armor of the mech units and when the Goliaths get a couple of upgrades, the Mutas are just gonna go out to die.
So mass Hydras seem like the best choice, but still, an army with mass Goliaths, a few tanks in the rear and some Vultures placing mines close to the Hydras during the engagement seems really effective.
By late game i think things get a lot harder for the Terran, because Metal is just as vulnerable to swarm and plague is just devastating against mech and because there will be no more Mutas, Goliaths will be less useful and the Terran is gonna have less gas for Vessels that if he had gone SK, making it really hard to deal with Ultras and even Lurkers under swarm.
But the thing is that this build puts so much pressure in the Zerg in the mid game, that is hard to make the transition to Hive tech without getting overrun, unless the Zerg gets a solid advantage over the Terran.
But the weak point of this build is, without a doubt, the early game, because there is an insane timing window before mines come out where a Hydra break would just rape a Terran that has expanded.
Of course this is really map dependant, i dont really know what makes Destination so ideal to use this (maybe the bridges?).
I dont play Zerg nor Terran, so i maybe be completly wrong about everything, all i know is that this new play style is resulting in some really entertaining pro games and that is all i need to like it.
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On January 05 2009 12:15 CrimsonLotus wrote:
Im amazed as to how powerful this build is mid game and how vulnerable it is early game.
I never knew how effective that ball of Goliaths can be against Zerg, i guess its because they negate the map control that the Mutas give to the Zerg by allowing the Terran to actually being able to leave his base, plus the mines really restrict the Zerg movements even after speed overlords enter the scene, because they always need an overlord with each army and with a bunch of Goliaths running around and killing them that might be hard at some points, so any mistake by the Zerg can cause a mine to go off and take a lot of units. And adding up the fact that speed Vultures really hurt the ability of the Zerg to expand in the early middle game, because even if their harass is not vey effective it still forces them to mass sunk to defend expansions.
And from what i have seen, the Zerg mid game army just get raped by metal, Lurkers are just not effective without Swarm, lings have a lot more troube because of the high armor of the mech units and when the Goliaths get a couple of upgrades, the Mutas are just gonna go out to die.
So mass Hydras seem like the best choice, but still, an army with mass Goliaths, a few tanks in the rear and some Vultures placing mines close to the Hydras during the engagement seems really effective.
By late game i think things get a lot harder for the Terran, because Metal is just as vulnerable to swarm and plague is just devastating against mech and because there will be no more Mutas, Goliaths will be less useful and the Terran is gonna have less gas for Vessels that if he had gone SK, making it really hard to deal with Ultras and even Lurkers under swarm.
But the thing is that this build puts so much pressure in the Zerg in the mid game, that is hard to make the transition to Hive tech without getting overrun, unless the Zerg gets a solid advantage over the Terran.
But the weak point of this build is, without a doubt, the early game, because there is an insane timing window before mines come out where a Hydra break would just rape a Terran that has expanded.
Of course this is really map dependant, i dont really know what makes Destination so ideal to use this (maybe the bridges?).
I dont play Zerg nor Terran, so i maybe be completly wrong about everything, all i know is that this new play style is resulting in some really entertaining pro games and that is all i need to like it.
You really prefer to watch mech in TvZ instead of SK terren? :O
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I just want to say you analysis of the new Terran trend is amazing, you should do ones covering ZvP and ZvZ as well!
Along the lines of early pressure, I think 9 pool counter this build really well?
If you didn't you just have to expand and use terran's mobility against themselves. Approach mech, the same way protoss approaches it. Try to contain terran with hydras, and then the terran moves out, keep pressure and pulling back until you can flank. However with the new maps, it is extremely difficult to flank, making mech really strong.
You can also try a large drop in terran's main when they're mobilizing and moving out. They're going to have to decide whether or not to save their main or commit all in to destroying you.
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Its imo, the zergs innefectiveness early game. Failure to secure a 3rd and 4th bases because of mines and whatever. Failure to secure the nat, like in that frozean vs ...whoever game of a day ago; the zerg was totally lost from the point a single vulture completely nullified the zergs natural. Its imo, just another variation of an "old" strat which has been recently brought up again and zergs are too used to playing these drone hungry openings with late or even nonexistent sunkens and which depend on speedlings for early game safety, that they are having trouble finding the solution in how to defend apparently 1 base terran effectively and then push out into a very heavy macro mode.
Midgame/lategame is not a problem because "metal is too strong" or whatever you want, its because early game is so much more important vs these kinds of terrans and zergs are just playing it innefectively. A 3 hatch lair (for the ovie speed) -> hydra -> 2 more expos ->whatever has been working vs metal these last 10 years should do perfectly fine and should regain map control very early in the game allowing the zerg to expand asap. Its almost the same as a build vs protoss that is like immune to harass.
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
The "forced early sunken" thing. Well the zerg is forced to build an early sunken if the terran goes 1 rax -> gas, because he should be either expecting an early vulture or an early minigroup of mnm. Both require an early sunken. Besides, a fast factory opening depends on the map, a single sunken is not able to defend the ramp and the whole nat from even a single vulture in maps like rush hour 3, tears of the moon and that chupung...whatever the hell map.
And for all you people talking about lurkers. If the zerg believes he is forced to get lurkers to delay the terran push, you know he totally fucked up early game. Lurkers are awful vs mech. If a zerg is going heavy on lurkers and zerglings instead of making mutalisks, *cough hyvaa cough*, then you know he sucks. If a zerg tries a hydralurker drop vs a metal terran, its do or die.
Also, Ideas, stop with the 1 liners.
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a well defended early 3rd expo for zerg should work fine limit the damage to the early vults and i bet you should do fine. Mass muta is better than mass hydra or you can mix both with upgrades offcourse.
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I've been thinking about these metal builds. I'm thinking mainly the hyuk vs lomo game.
Basically, to protect your economy early game you need 2 sunken colonies to fully protect your natural and 2 hydras to block your ramp, alternatively 1 sunk and more hydras. 1 sunken is enough to scare away normal vulture harassers, so you're probably better off building more hydra. You have to make sure the sunken(s) protect your blocked ramp as well as the drones. There is a very unlikely scenario where the Terran can bust your ramp block by planting spider mines near your hydras, however if you have a sunk there that shouldn't be a problem.
Your economy is not safe yet! There is the possibility of dropships! Ideally you would scout and see if the Terran teched there, but that is not always an option. You should, against metal, to have your ovies around the map guarding possible drop routes. The Terran doesn't have control of the air space until he moves out with his goliaths, so you can keep your ovies around. You should be able to clean any drops as long as you have 1 sunken in the mineral line of your main and some hydras, you also need ovies for detecting mines. Ideally, you would use burrow to avoid all drone losses.
If the Terran has dropped you then that means he has a very low goliath count. This means you must go muta and bring some scourge with you. Why scourge? Because the Terran has a Starport and an Armory. He is likely to build a valkyrie in hopes of scaring away mutalisks. You have to have faith at this moment and must barge right in and scourge the Valkyrie. If you can kill the Valkyrie, you have the game as your superior mutalisk numbers overwhelm the goliaths.
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The best thing what come along with metal(mechanic)-build is Terran got another option.
Zerg couldn't come over MnM+Tank+Vessel yet.
But they got another challenges like BC(FBH), Metal-builds.
That's the problem.
Smart Terran player like FBH, Flash, UpMagic can playing around with Zerg easily.
Additionally, mechanic-units are easy to control than bionic-units.
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On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
the counter to mech has always been from the zerg's perspective: "well I know hes going to take a long time to push out safely, and I know I'm going to need a ton of gas, a ton of units and a ton of upgrades" so really if you look at old mech builds, the zerg would take a quick third and just go with fairly light muta harass while he tried to take advantage of his map control and build up.
But the vultures + mines means first that the zerg cant send out lone drones to make expansions. He also cant really send out hydras to defend the new expansion for two reasons: one, they'll get chewed up by mines, and two if a dropship follows up he is going to be stretched super thin.
If zerg is already stuck at 2 maybe 3 bases, drones being lost really really really hurt when it comes to defending against the push
really its the threat of the vulture drop that is really hard to deal with.
also the mines keep the zerg in his base. This keeps the terran safe early game (he doesnt even have to float build his nat cc) and it really does not allow zerg to set up a flank without overlord speed.
and mutas and hydras not able to flank and advancing into range golis and sieged tanks already in formation?
not going to happen.
Zerg need to work on stopping the drop, find some way to take more bases and threaten/harass the terran before the big push. Right now, thats not happening, and to be honest its difficult to see what the zergs can do differently to prevent that.
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From what i have watched so far, early vulture says little about the use of metal build from Terran. FBH in the match against JD also went fast factory and vulture but then he switched back to standard Mnm with fast vessel. While early vulture also leads to the build of 2 starports wraith as Lomo usally did, Canata in his two current games used mass vul trying to harm Z's economy and prevent Z from expansion, Fantasy uses dropship to make the sunken not effective in defending.
But I agree that it is vulture (not bunker rush) that changes the mech build playstyle these days, because I could only see the fast armory+gols previously to defend against fast muta, especially when it was refined by Flash on Katrina. And in most of the games recently, Z always countered with hydra
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On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st?
did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes.
But seriously, not to come off as cocky, i think players can discover new things even after 10 years that might revolutionize the use of some units, even if after its done its painfully obvious.
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trek always did a metalbuild on chow chow during wcg 
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On January 05 2009 12:05 TaDa1. wrote:
it's because of new map. Try mech on luna and see how successful you will get.
he said it all , quicly , smartly and simply.
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The OP said that Terran usually follow up the vultures with a tank and get a late enbay but that's not true for all games. Most of the games when zerg does mutas terran will just make armory and enbay at the same time, making gols instead of tanks and leaving absolutely 0 weakness vs mutalisk. The mutas will enter the terran base and find 4-6 goliaths with 2-3 turrets at every possible harass site. Gols will most likely have range aswell. This is for a 2 hatch or 3 hatch muta build ofcourse. The only time you do the tank first and delay your enbay is vs obvious hydra all in like the Flash vs Magma game. It'd just be stupid to follow that up with fast gols and enbay.
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On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
I actually think that only now do progamers have perfect multitask and mechanics to be able to build an entire strategy leaning on their ability to fight 1 vulture vs up to like 8 lings. And it's the reason why they use bunker rush to force low econ game i.e. lings.
Nowadays sick vult micro is basic knowledge and if you can force the zerg to stay on lower tech tree for a bit, you'll go for it.
All modern insane multitasking skills enable the players to do things that weren't so viable a couple of years ago.
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It's actually funny, it took 10 years for terran to use mech in TvZ and 10 years for Zerg to realize that queens have ensnare. What will we see for the next couple of years? Mass medics for restoration in TvZ? Yes Please.
The good thing about this game is that it keeps on having that extra unknown or undiscovered areas in it.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
About an early Zerg push, it puzzles me that zergs in the quotes games dont send a couple of lings along to clear up the mines. Am I missing something?
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By the time the mine pops out, and the zergling comes to contact with it, the zergling has 2-3 hits to land to the mine before it explodes, I guess that wouldn't be enough time for the lings to defuse mines. That's why they use hydras and goons to clear mines.
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On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before?
I believe it's because defending your nat from muta harass with mnm on Tears of the Moon and Byzantium (the two maps where terrans have been consistently meching) is near impossible - you need goliaths to not get completely wrecked by a competent zerg's muta harass. The architecture of those two maps make it much more suitable for meching than other maps with hard to defend nats (original blue storm).
edit: some data...
tears of the moon
overall tvz: 2-1
terran mechs: 3 (2-1)
terran non mechs: 0 (0-0)
byzantium II
overall tvz: 10-9
terran mechs: 5 (2-3)
terran non mechs: 11 (7-4)
other: (flash vs yellow, jaedong vs upmagic, calm vs frozean) 3 (1-2)
well that was inconclusive
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On January 06 2009 00:07 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
By the time the mine pops out, and the zergling comes to contact with it, the zergling has 2-3 hits to land to the mine before it explodes, I guess that wouldn't be enough time for the lings to defuse mines. That's why they use hydras and goons to clear mines.
he meant sacrificing 1 ling at a time to get rid of the mines, then rush in with hydralisks.
well if the terran can play he will have 2 vult to snipe each ling before draging up the mine.
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On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
Its imo, the zergs innefectiveness early game. Failure to secure a 3rd and 4th bases because of mines and whatever. Failure to secure the nat, like in that frozean vs ...whoever game of a day ago; the zerg was totally lost from the point a single vulture completely nullified the zergs natural. Its imo, just another variation of an "old" strat which has been recently brought up again and zergs are too used to playing these drone hungry openings with late or even nonexistent sunkens and which depend on speedlings for early game safety, that they are having trouble finding the solution in how to defend apparently 1 base terran effectively and then push out into a very heavy macro mode.
Midgame/lategame is not a problem because "metal is too strong" or whatever you want, its because early game is so much more important vs these kinds of terrans and zergs are just playing it innefectively. A 3 hatch lair (for the ovie speed) -> hydra -> 2 more expos ->whatever has been working vs metal these last 10 years should do perfectly fine and should regain map control very early in the game allowing the zerg to expand asap. Its almost the same as a build vs protoss that is like immune to harass.
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
The "forced early sunken" thing. Well the zerg is forced to build an early sunken if the terran goes 1 rax -> gas, because he should be either expecting an early vulture or an early minigroup of mnm. Both require an early sunken. Besides, a fast factory opening depends on the map, a single sunken is not able to defend the ramp and the whole nat from even a single vulture in maps like rush hour 3, tears of the moon and that chupung...whatever the hell map.
And for all you people talking about lurkers. If the zerg believes he is forced to get lurkers to delay the terran push, you know he totally fucked up early game. Lurkers are awful vs mech. If a zerg is going heavy on lurkers and zerglings instead of making mutalisks, *cough hyvaa cough*, then you know he sucks. If a zerg tries a hydralurker drop vs a metal terran, its do or die.
Also, Ideas, stop with the 1 liners.
Hyvaa won the game against frozean.
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just a small question, other than playing on maps with difficult-to-defend-against-muta bases when is a good time to use mech as a counterstrat?
im thinking lurkerling and maybe ultraling (countered with tank/gol + mines) but am not experienced in this at all
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On January 06 2009 02:01 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
Its imo, the zergs innefectiveness early game. Failure to secure a 3rd and 4th bases because of mines and whatever. Failure to secure the nat, like in that frozean vs ...whoever game of a day ago; the zerg was totally lost from the point a single vulture completely nullified the zergs natural. Its imo, just another variation of an "old" strat which has been recently brought up again and zergs are too used to playing these drone hungry openings with late or even nonexistent sunkens and which depend on speedlings for early game safety, that they are having trouble finding the solution in how to defend apparently 1 base terran effectively and then push out into a very heavy macro mode.
Midgame/lategame is not a problem because "metal is too strong" or whatever you want, its because early game is so much more important vs these kinds of terrans and zergs are just playing it innefectively. A 3 hatch lair (for the ovie speed) -> hydra -> 2 more expos ->whatever has been working vs metal these last 10 years should do perfectly fine and should regain map control very early in the game allowing the zerg to expand asap. Its almost the same as a build vs protoss that is like immune to harass.
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
The "forced early sunken" thing. Well the zerg is forced to build an early sunken if the terran goes 1 rax -> gas, because he should be either expecting an early vulture or an early minigroup of mnm. Both require an early sunken. Besides, a fast factory opening depends on the map, a single sunken is not able to defend the ramp and the whole nat from even a single vulture in maps like rush hour 3, tears of the moon and that chupung...whatever the hell map.
And for all you people talking about lurkers. If the zerg believes he is forced to get lurkers to delay the terran push, you know he totally fucked up early game. Lurkers are awful vs mech. If a zerg is going heavy on lurkers and zerglings instead of making mutalisks, *cough hyvaa cough*, then you know he sucks. If a zerg tries a hydralurker drop vs a metal terran, its do or die.
Also, Ideas, stop with the 1 liners. Hyvaa won the game against frozean.
Because frozean went into "meh" mode after his push was bound to destroy every zerg expo but his nat. He lost like a newbie to some half assed counter. The lurkerling heavy mode that hyvaa went afterwards just helped to rub that in. Sad day for terran.
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but isnt mm rush still most effective against z?
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+ Show Spoiler +
Agaisnt the terran that goes 1rax -> 1factory -> quick 1 starport.
Standard 3 hatch tech, place 3rd hatch at natural -->
4 lings early to kill scout -->
Wall with early den + sunken + a few lings and hydras @ Natural -->
4 lings and 4 hydras + sunk in main to cover.
Spire ASAP as lair is done.
Vultures can't get in due to block, so he'll resort to vulture drop, in which you rape his harass.
Gather mutalisks, push out of your natural with slow ovies and a few hydras and then proceed to rape his base with a Mutaling force.
+ Show Spoiler +Get the korean announcer to scream GG!!!! with his hyper aggressive high pitched voice.
Analysis:
While many may pass this off as a "good" build. I still think it's pretty cheesy. If your early game harass does not do any damage, Zerg suddenly has 2 bases to 1 on you, with mass mutalisks coming your way. At this point, Zerg can rape you with his mutaling force or he could contain you with mutaling while he double expos. As long as you don't allow terran's harass to work or let him become to massive, you should be in a better position in the midgame.
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On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush.
The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech.
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On January 05 2009 11:41 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote:
What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before? no its just fun to try something that can 1a2a3a instead of 1t2t3t1a2a3a...
you mean 1a2a3a4a5a1t2t3t4t
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You stim before you attack and youre forgetting the medics as well, but stfu with that already please.
On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech.
This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran.
As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted.
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On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st?
10 years ? It has been used before.. I can think of one game already in 2003..
2003_2rd_TG/TGstarfinal_1201_1r_1b_200k_iloveoov_vs_Yellow_1.wmv/ , u can get it in vods MSL all finals section.
People are just constantly trying new things and since maps do change a lot, i guess that is the reason we see mech more, and i am happy to see that..
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On January 05 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +on a more serious note, i think the terrans have gotten close before with vult pressure into 2port wraith and similar builds, but they never really combined true good early prssure with a golitank followup until recently
Again untrue.. see my post up , and this is just one game i cant think of, since i havent watch sc years ago.. there are prob. much more games with mech..
Unless 6 years is recently for you..
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On January 05 2009 20:33 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes.
Actually, it didn't. Corsair / dt builds have been around for a long, long time. The main purpose of sair/dt back then was to get your natural expansion up, since corsairs would chase away the first slow overlords and zerg can't attack your nat if you have dts guarding it. As an added bonus, you could scout with the sair and sneak dts around and delay zerg expansions. The build was an answer to one of the biggest problems pvz back then: how the hell do you get your natural expansion up with the threat of 3 hatch builds, mutas, and lurkers, especially when you have no idea what the zerg is doing? However, the build used to be crushed by 3 hatch speed hydra/ speed ol openings into lurker contain.
That is, until Bisu popularized his tweaked FE build, which basically skips the whole problem of getting the natural expansion up that protoss used to have against zerg AND weakens the zerg with sairs, all the while knowing exactly what the zerg is teching and where the zerg is expanding. Doing FE used to be risky business, especially on older maps like LT, but nowadays protoss players have gotten quite skilled at deflecting zerg attacks especially since newer maps make it easier.
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On January 06 2009 05:50 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote:On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran. As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted.
You're describing two very different game patterns than what we've been seeing recently. When you can use the 8 rax both to wall and bunker rush, then it transfers very nicely into a standard terran play because you can continue to pump marines from it, leading to your medic and marine midgame army, rather than having to reinvest in another rax in the middle of the map.
But I'm refering to a rax in the middle for the map, with the intention of lifting and scouting, and producing no more marines in the game. The vulture --> wraith follow up has a problem in that it is even more vulnerable to a hydralisk tech change. Hydralisks are ideal counters to both vulture snad wraiths, so the harassment heavy style leads to an even more delayed push. In this new build, the vulture is followed up with ground units, namely tanks and goliaths that make hydralisks melt, allowing the terran to push much sooner (although they do lose the harassment posibilities of the wraith, but as zerg can't really mass expand against this build, they can afford to go without harassment since their economy is equal to the zerg anyway).
All in all, I think that the bunker rush, while not paramount to the build is a very nice touch that facilitates the early and midgame map control that is making this new mech build much more effective than old school mech.
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Again, im saying that bunker rushes depend on the map. And after it succeeds you can go whatever. You dont need to bunker rush to go mech (otherwise it would majorly suck), nor does the bunker rush make it "new", nor does it necessarily multiply its effectiveness. The zerg will have already built a sunken and has lings to deal with your vulture. Just like an 8 rax on the choke of andromeda doesnt guarantee that you will have a more succesful FE than if you had just opened standard.
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I think we agree more than we disagree, Cloud.
I'll I'm saying is that the bunker rush synergizes with this new mech build very well, for all the reasons discussed before. I think its a better synergy than a transition to standard play and better than vultures and wraiths.
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Mech is just another fun option but SK terran will forever be in my heart.
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mech with dropships :O wewt
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On January 06 2009 06:28 GeneralStan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 05:50 Cloud wrote:On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote:On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran. As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted. You're describing two very different game patterns than what we've been seeing recently. When you can use the 8 rax both to wall and bunker rush, then it transfers very nicely into a standard terran play because you can continue to pump marines from it, leading to your medic and marine midgame army, rather than having to reinvest in another rax in the middle of the map. But I'm refering to a rax in the middle for the map, with the intention of lifting and scouting, and producing no more marines in the game. The vulture --> wraith follow up has a problem in that it is even more vulnerable to a hydralisk tech change. Hydralisks are ideal counters to both vulture snad wraiths, so the harassment heavy style leads to an even more delayed push. In this new build, the vulture is followed up with ground units, namely tanks and goliaths that make hydralisks melt, allowing the terran to push much sooner (although they do lose the harassment posibilities of the wraith, but as zerg can't really mass expand against this build, they can afford to go without harassment since their economy is equal to the zerg anyway). All in all, I think that the bunker rush, while not paramount to the build is a very nice touch that facilitates the early and midgame map control that is making this new mech build much more effective than old school mech.
I really agree with this post
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I know mech might be the new trend, but I prefer going mnm still for TvZ. I mean c'mon there's already enough mech in TvPs and TvTs but in TvZ we can go mnm and firebats and stuff and it's always cool seeing some marine micro and protecting vessels and scourge action. That's just my little opinion.
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On January 05 2009 20:33 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes. But seriously, not to come off as cocky, i think players can discover new things even after 10 years that might revolutionize the use of some units, even if after its done its painfully obvious.
8 years to realise dts and sairs were effective? nooo i think you're mistaken
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An alternative would be the following:
Say it is a 2 player map like Destination or Chupung etc, and you are not confortable with playing against mech. You can force the terran to go mnm by stealing his gas with your 9th drone.
Just as Hoejja did against Canata today, he preacticed only against mnm, and sacrificed a bit of economy early on to make sure Canata wont go mech. Smart.
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On January 05 2009 20:33 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes. But seriously, not to come off as cocky, i think players can discover new things even after 10 years that might revolutionize the use of some units, even if after its done its painfully obvious.
Well, there is somethiong else: a play style, or a build needs a looot of time to be refined by the best players in the world, tried out countless times etc etc etc etc...
It's not enough to have a good idea, you have to work on it.
Look at Fantasy, losing to EffOrt for no other reason that he hadn't think about this ugly mass ling all-in. New tendancies like sair in PvZ or Mech in TvZ have to do with trend, map pool, ad inspiration and dedication of few amazing players to the idea.
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EPT
