|
On January 06 2009 05:50 Cloud wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote:On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran. As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted.
You're describing two very different game patterns than what we've been seeing recently. When you can use the 8 rax both to wall and bunker rush, then it transfers very nicely into a standard terran play because you can continue to pump marines from it, leading to your medic and marine midgame army, rather than having to reinvest in another rax in the middle of the map.
But I'm refering to a rax in the middle for the map, with the intention of lifting and scouting, and producing no more marines in the game. The vulture --> wraith follow up has a problem in that it is even more vulnerable to a hydralisk tech change. Hydralisks are ideal counters to both vulture snad wraiths, so the harassment heavy style leads to an even more delayed push. In this new build, the vulture is followed up with ground units, namely tanks and goliaths that make hydralisks melt, allowing the terran to push much sooner (although they do lose the harassment posibilities of the wraith, but as zerg can't really mass expand against this build, they can afford to go without harassment since their economy is equal to the zerg anyway).
All in all, I think that the bunker rush, while not paramount to the build is a very nice touch that facilitates the early and midgame map control that is making this new mech build much more effective than old school mech.
|
Again, im saying that bunker rushes depend on the map. And after it succeeds you can go whatever. You dont need to bunker rush to go mech (otherwise it would majorly suck), nor does the bunker rush make it "new", nor does it necessarily multiply its effectiveness. The zerg will have already built a sunken and has lings to deal with your vulture. Just like an 8 rax on the choke of andromeda doesnt guarantee that you will have a more succesful FE than if you had just opened standard.
|
I think we agree more than we disagree, Cloud.
I'll I'm saying is that the bunker rush synergizes with this new mech build very well, for all the reasons discussed before. I think its a better synergy than a transition to standard play and better than vultures and wraiths.
|
Mech is just another fun option but SK terran will forever be in my heart.
|
mech with dropships :O wewt
|
On January 06 2009 06:28 GeneralStan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 05:50 Cloud wrote:On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote:On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote:
The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would.
I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran. As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted. You're describing two very different game patterns than what we've been seeing recently. When you can use the 8 rax both to wall and bunker rush, then it transfers very nicely into a standard terran play because you can continue to pump marines from it, leading to your medic and marine midgame army, rather than having to reinvest in another rax in the middle of the map. But I'm refering to a rax in the middle for the map, with the intention of lifting and scouting, and producing no more marines in the game. The vulture --> wraith follow up has a problem in that it is even more vulnerable to a hydralisk tech change. Hydralisks are ideal counters to both vulture snad wraiths, so the harassment heavy style leads to an even more delayed push. In this new build, the vulture is followed up with ground units, namely tanks and goliaths that make hydralisks melt, allowing the terran to push much sooner (although they do lose the harassment posibilities of the wraith, but as zerg can't really mass expand against this build, they can afford to go without harassment since their economy is equal to the zerg anyway). All in all, I think that the bunker rush, while not paramount to the build is a very nice touch that facilitates the early and midgame map control that is making this new mech build much more effective than old school mech.
I really agree with this post
|
|
|
I know mech might be the new trend, but I prefer going mnm still for TvZ. I mean c'mon there's already enough mech in TvPs and TvTs but in TvZ we can go mnm and firebats and stuff and it's always cool seeing some marine micro and protecting vessels and scourge action. That's just my little opinion.
|
On January 05 2009 20:33 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes. But seriously, not to come off as cocky, i think players can discover new things even after 10 years that might revolutionize the use of some units, even if after its done its painfully obvious.
8 years to realise dts and sairs were effective? nooo i think you're mistaken
|
An alternative would be the following:
Say it is a 2 player map like Destination or Chupung etc, and you are not confortable with playing against mech. You can force the terran to go mnm by stealing his gas with your 9th drone.
Just as Hoejja did against Canata today, he preacticed only against mnm, and sacrificed a bit of economy early on to make sure Canata wont go mech. Smart.
|
On January 05 2009 20:33 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote:On January 05 2009 11:46 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I think crippling the zerg or forcing low econ play with the bunk rush + vult opening or the quick vult drop after wallin of the fantasy build is to minimize the weakness of lack of mobility. If zerg isn't crippled, early to midgame mech has no power to stop it from expanding freely like a crazy. However, if zerg's econ is crippled early on and has to spend resources on defending and rebuilding drone counts, by the time the terran is ready to push out, zerg won't be nearly as strong as it would be if it were allowed to macro unhindered knowing it was facing a mobility-weak metal terran. So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes. But seriously, not to come off as cocky, i think players can discover new things even after 10 years that might revolutionize the use of some units, even if after its done its painfully obvious.
Well, there is somethiong else: a play style, or a build needs a looot of time to be refined by the best players in the world, tried out countless times etc etc etc etc...
It's not enough to have a good idea, you have to work on it.
Look at Fantasy, losing to EffOrt for no other reason that he hadn't think about this ugly mass ling all-in. New tendancies like sair in PvZ or Mech in TvZ have to do with trend, map pool, ad inspiration and dedication of few amazing players to the idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
