EPT
[D] Mech TvZ; the new trend - Page 2
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JollYRoGeR
Sweden342 Posts
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axel
France385 Posts
On January 05 2009 12:05 TaDa1. wrote: it's because of new map. Try mech on luna and see how successful you will get. he said it all , quicly , smartly and simply. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote: What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before? I actually think that only now do progamers have perfect multitask and mechanics to be able to build an entire strategy leaning on their ability to fight 1 vulture vs up to like 8 lings. And it's the reason why they use bunker rush to force low econ game i.e. lings. Nowadays sick vult micro is basic knowledge and if you can force the zerg to stay on lower tech tree for a bit, you'll go for it. All modern insane multitasking skills enable the players to do things that weren't so viable a couple of years ago. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
The good thing about this game is that it keeps on having that extra unknown or undiscovered areas in it. | ||
Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On January 05 2009 11:35 Ideas wrote: What I don't understand is why mech is so popular all of a sudden. Most of the time they aren't even doing the fantasy build. Is it the early vulture harass that terrens just never thought of before? I believe it's because defending your nat from muta harass with mnm on Tears of the Moon and Byzantium (the two maps where terrans have been consistently meching) is near impossible - you need goliaths to not get completely wrecked by a competent zerg's muta harass. The architecture of those two maps make it much more suitable for meching than other maps with hard to defend nats (original blue storm). edit: some data... tears of the moon overall tvz: 2-1 terran mechs: 3 (2-1) terran non mechs: 0 (0-0) byzantium II overall tvz: 10-9 terran mechs: 5 (2-3) terran non mechs: 11 (7-4) other: (flash vs yellow, jaedong vs upmagic, calm vs frozean) 3 (1-2) well that was inconclusive | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 06 2009 00:07 Infinity.SkyLark wrote: By the time the mine pops out, and the zergling comes to contact with it, the zergling has 2-3 hits to land to the mine before it explodes, I guess that wouldn't be enough time for the lings to defuse mines. That's why they use hydras and goons to clear mines. he meant sacrificing 1 ling at a time to get rid of the mines, then rush in with hydralisks. well if the terran can play he will have 2 vult to snipe each ling before draging up the mine. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote: Its imo, the zergs innefectiveness early game. Failure to secure a 3rd and 4th bases because of mines and whatever. Failure to secure the nat, like in that frozean vs ...whoever game of a day ago; the zerg was totally lost from the point a single vulture completely nullified the zergs natural. Its imo, just another variation of an "old" strat which has been recently brought up again and zergs are too used to playing these drone hungry openings with late or even nonexistent sunkens and which depend on speedlings for early game safety, that they are having trouble finding the solution in how to defend apparently 1 base terran effectively and then push out into a very heavy macro mode. Midgame/lategame is not a problem because "metal is too strong" or whatever you want, its because early game is so much more important vs these kinds of terrans and zergs are just playing it innefectively. A 3 hatch lair (for the ovie speed) -> hydra -> 2 more expos ->whatever has been working vs metal these last 10 years should do perfectly fine and should regain map control very early in the game allowing the zerg to expand asap. Its almost the same as a build vs protoss that is like immune to harass. The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would. The "forced early sunken" thing. Well the zerg is forced to build an early sunken if the terran goes 1 rax -> gas, because he should be either expecting an early vulture or an early minigroup of mnm. Both require an early sunken. Besides, a fast factory opening depends on the map, a single sunken is not able to defend the ramp and the whole nat from even a single vulture in maps like rush hour 3, tears of the moon and that chupung...whatever the hell map. And for all you people talking about lurkers. If the zerg believes he is forced to get lurkers to delay the terran push, you know he totally fucked up early game. Lurkers are awful vs mech. If a zerg is going heavy on lurkers and zerglings instead of making mutalisks, *cough hyvaa cough*, then you know he sucks. If a zerg tries a hydralurker drop vs a metal terran, its do or die. Also, Ideas, stop with the 1 liners. Hyvaa won the game against frozean. | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
im thinking lurkerling and maybe ultraling (countered with tank/gol + mines) but am not experienced in this at all | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Because frozean went into "meh" mode after his push was bound to destroy every zerg expo but his nat. He lost like a newbie to some half assed counter. The lurkerling heavy mode that hyvaa went afterwards just helped to rub that in. Sad day for terran. | ||
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execute]
United States1 Post
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
Agaisnt the terran that goes 1rax -> 1factory -> quick 1 starport. Standard 3 hatch tech, place 3rd hatch at natural --> 4 lings early to kill scout --> Wall with early den + sunken + a few lings and hydras @ Natural --> 4 lings and 4 hydras + sunk in main to cover. Spire ASAP as lair is done. Vultures can't get in due to block, so he'll resort to vulture drop, in which you rape his harass. Gather mutalisks, push out of your natural with slow ovies and a few hydras and then proceed to rape his base with a Mutaling force. + Show Spoiler + Get the korean announcer to scream GG!!!! with his hyper aggressive high pitched voice. Analysis: While many may pass this off as a "good" build. I still think it's pretty cheesy. If your early game harass does not do any damage, Zerg suddenly has 2 bases to 1 on you, with mass mutalisks coming your way. At this point, Zerg can rape you with his mutaling force or he could contain you with mutaling while he double expos. As long as you don't allow terran's harass to work or let him become to massive, you should be in a better position in the midgame. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
On January 05 2009 13:33 Cloud wrote: The bunker rush is definitely not a factor in this build. Terran can open with 8 rax and if it succeeds he can the go whatever, mech doesnt take advantage of the damage done any more than a standard terran build would. I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On January 05 2009 11:41 ramen247 wrote: no its just fun to try something that can 1a2a3a instead of 1t2t3t1a2a3a... you mean 1a2a3a4a5a1t2t3t4t | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On January 06 2009 05:24 GeneralStan wrote: I disagree here. I think the bunker rush is a nice new wr inkle in the build. Because Terran is planning to go mech, the investment in a bunker rush is less since they don't lose future troop producting by proxying the barracks (they also gain a useful high hp scout after the rush is concluded). It is another factor to throw the zerg off balance, and it requires a different and earlier set of counters to respond to (ie lings and pulling drones, both of which greatly hinder Zerg's economy compared to pumping drones like they can against a simple vulture rush. The fact that it is an inexpensive gambit to which the zerg MUST respond, while the Terran continues their mech build order really makes the coming vulture harass much more effective. This in turn allows Terran to control the map despite the inherently defensive nature of early game mech. This bunker rush into fast factory is not a new thing. It was usually followed by a vulture and then 2 starport wraith. Or instead of making a factory it would be followed by a mnm sunken break. Or on andromeda (i think) for example, the terran would 8 rax at his nat and the map actually allowed him to wall at his choke, making him immune to any ling retaliation; the 8 rax would then be followed by a fast expo and then standard terran. As i said, the bunker rush is not paramount. Some maps simply allow for better proxies because of the ammount of buildable terrain in the middle or in other positions close to the nats which are not commonly scouted. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
On January 05 2009 11:49 Ideas wrote: So basically it took 10 years for Terren to figure out mech works vs Z if you actually pressure the Z 1st? 10 years ? It has been used before.. I can think of one game already in 2003.. 2003_2rd_TG/TGstarfinal_1201_1r_1b_200k_iloveoov_vs_Yellow_1.wmv/ , u can get it in vods MSL all finals section. People are just constantly trying new things and since maps do change a lot, i guess that is the reason we see mech more, and i am happy to see that.. | ||
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Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
On January 05 2009 12:11 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: + Show Spoiler + on a more serious note, i think the terrans have gotten close before with vult pressure into 2port wraith and similar builds, but they never really combined true good early prssure with a golitank followup until recently Again untrue.. see my post up , and this is just one game i cant think of, since i havent watch sc years ago.. there are prob. much more games with mech..Unless 6 years is recently for you.. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On January 05 2009 20:33 AnOth3rDAy wrote: did it really take like 8 years for protoss to figure out u can use corsair dt to prevent zerg from overextending himself? I think yes. Actually, it didn't. Corsair / dt builds have been around for a long, long time. The main purpose of sair/dt back then was to get your natural expansion up, since corsairs would chase away the first slow overlords and zerg can't attack your nat if you have dts guarding it. As an added bonus, you could scout with the sair and sneak dts around and delay zerg expansions. The build was an answer to one of the biggest problems pvz back then: how the hell do you get your natural expansion up with the threat of 3 hatch builds, mutas, and lurkers, especially when you have no idea what the zerg is doing? However, the build used to be crushed by 3 hatch speed hydra/ speed ol openings into lurker contain. That is, until Bisu popularized his tweaked FE build, which basically skips the whole problem of getting the natural expansion up that protoss used to have against zerg AND weakens the zerg with sairs, all the while knowing exactly what the zerg is teching and where the zerg is expanding. Doing FE used to be risky business, especially on older maps like LT, but nowadays protoss players have gotten quite skilled at deflecting zerg attacks especially since newer maps make it easier. | ||
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