EPTAnd although the more hydra you have the stronger they are and certainly stronger than mutalisk speaking of cost per damage, but the lack of mobility and being easily countered by zerglings they aren't much good, except if you somehow mass them up and surprise the enemy zerg, but that won't happen in a serious game so....
[Q] ZvZ hydra VS muta - Page 5
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
And although the more hydra you have the stronger they are and certainly stronger than mutalisk speaking of cost per damage, but the lack of mobility and being easily countered by zerglings they aren't much good, except if you somehow mass them up and surprise the enemy zerg, but that won't happen in a serious game so.... | ||
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Vaul
New Zealand112 Posts
part1 http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=8VL-ImMi4J8 part2 http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=9MlfljeTzdY part3 http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=8_hHYEMH5bE part4 http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=ev_N3gELvjE On a personal note, I agree that going hydras in zvz gives your opponent an advantage, if they are accomplished enough to know how to capitalize on it. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
It's a bit more work to upload the 10mb replay, but I know I personally would appreciate an RWA format if it was not too much trouble. Thanks again for your contributions  | ||
Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
Posting "Hydras are better than Mutas" is retarded. Posting "I went 53-1" is retarded. Regardless, Day[9] doesn't back up your statement that "when you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over." That statement is retarded because there is literally no army in any matchup of StarCraft that is autowin. And if there were, it certainly isn't 40 Hydralisks in ZvZ. | ||
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Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
On August 01 2008 11:14 Chill wrote: Posting "Hydras are better than Mutas" is retarded. Posting "I went 53-1" is retarded. Regardless, Day[9] doesn't back up your statement that "when you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over." That statement is retarded because there is literally no army in any matchup of StarCraft that is autowin. And if there were, it certainly isn't 40 Hydralisks in ZvZ. Just ask him for a few of the many reps, I'm not gonna post 'em cause they aren't mine to do so. I'm sure I missed a detail or two, but all of that was the basic jist. Take some Tums and chill, your ID is very ironic. Yeah it's not autowin, but your chances are pretty good. If you made it that far and have that sort of setup, which seems to be consistent in his reps, it looks positive. Like I said, every time I have kept my defense strong enough to get to the 2-2 point, I've won most of the time. I seem to lose more if they counter with hydras themselves. EDIT: I don't care to argue. My point is that it IS POSSIBLE and can be done very well, like I've seen it. It's not good for a strategy forum to be narrow minded when these things can work. The poll isn't 99% useless to 1% not. It's almost 40% that say it's useful. This isn't the "how Chill plays forum", don't treat it like it is. Investigate some possibilities before you shut something down. You didn't even ask Day about it. | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
Basically you take an early expansion, ward off the initial harassment with either regular spire openings or evo with spores and sunks early on, "turtle" per say, and tech your hydra upgrades up far. Once you have a handful with a few hotkeys, you move out for the blow. However since there is that moment of passiveness, it is very easy for the other player to take up another 3rd gas expansion and mass up cumulatively further than you will, but there is an opening to attack when the 3rd gas expo is just starting or the income hasn't begun to pay off yet. Further examples of this can be found from an old game between satanik vs xiaozi: http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=746 Testie vs Mondragon on RH3 http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/5763 A more recent game on Blue storm: http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1032 I would disagree with anyone who says that hydras totally useless, if a zvz manages to get into a late game phase and both players have a wealthy gas heavy eco going, a deflier basically destroys the effective nature of mutas and hydras come into play to match with swarm and simply being more cost effective. I've also seen it happen on 815, between yellow and ggplay where they were absurdly far from each other and was not possible to have an easy secondary gas, so a slew of tech switching from muta to defliers and to hydras came into play. I couldn't find a Korean commentary version, so your going to have to deal with this crap English one :[ + Show Spoiler [ggplayvsyellow] + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2g7yGgTMY Also I would like to make note that I think it works/far more possible with lower levels such as amateur/foreigner simply because pros have a better understanding of the flow of zvz and crucial timing moments. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=42569 but that server went down so all links are a broken =/ | ||
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On August 01 2008 12:10 Quesadilla wrote: Yeah it's not autowin, but your chances are pretty good. If you made it that far and have that sort of setup, which seems to be consistent in his reps, it looks positive. Like I said, every time I have kept my defense strong enough to get to the 2-2 point, I've won most of the time. I seem to lose more if they counter with hydras themselves. That's fair. As I see it, it plays out exactly like Muta vs metal, except easier. Zerg gets Mutalisks out and expands, the other Zerg turtles for 10 minutes. Mutalisk Zerg takes 3 bases and amasses Mutalisks. The second Hydralisk Zerg moves out he loses his main, and Mutalisks Zerg turtles his remaining expo. EDIT: I don't care to argue. My point is that it IS POSSIBLE and can be done very well, like I've seen it. It's not good for a strategy forum to be narrow minded when these things can work. The poll isn't 99% useless to 1% not. It's almost 40% that say it's useful. This isn't the "how Chill plays forum", don't treat it like it is. Investigate some possibilities before you shut something down. You didn't even ask Day about it. Any strategy is possible. The point I'm asking is whether or not this is stronger than standard play in any situation. And my opinion is it's not, backed up by the fact that no progamer ever does it, foreigners rarely do it, and the short strategic analysis I've done above. It's like going metal on Python vs Z; you can steal some games off weaker players, but you're making it harder on yourself. Day is free to give whatever analysis or evidence he wants. As is anyone else! | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Now, before you start thinking to yourself "Why is he wasting his time posting a Muta/Ling vs Hydra/Lurker guide, when we already know that Muta/Ling > Hydra/Ling." Go tell that to someone like 1st~Tsunami. Hydra/Lurker can be a viable option vs Muta/Ling, but I do not believe that it's better than Muta/Ling. Often enough it isn't the strategy itself, but it's the execution of that strategy that matters most. A person that has experience using a second rate strategy, will do much better than they will if they had used the best strategy having no experience ever using it. They have the timing, the knowledge, and know how to EXECUTE IT. From the old Fennec guide ( http://www.geocities.com/fennecthefox/StrategyPagePart12.html ) Although Tsunami seemed to steadfastly believe Hydras were better. I think right now it's favourable for progamers to use Muta Ling ZvZ because it's all they've ever used their whole StarCraft careers, and the quote above could be reversed to say the same thing. While it could be better, I think that it is perhaps unfair to say for certain one is better than the other, except for obvious facts like that no one can teach you hydra ZvZ, but everyone in progaming can tell you a million tricks in muta ZvZ. One is simply much more evolved and has shorter games than the epic hydra turtles. If you think about Tsunami's solutions for hydra ZvZ, he says to ensnare mutas attacking your base while you attack his, so that he can't come back to defend it in time... The decision making involved in hydra ZvZ to me would then seem apparently awkward compared to how one would normally view StarCraft. I just wish Tsunami still played SC so we could know what he could have been today | ||
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Elite]v[arine
United States264 Posts
On August 02 2008 03:12 PsycHOTemplar wrote: From the old Fennec guide ( http://www.geocities.com/fennecthefox/StrategyPagePart12.html ) Although Tsunami seemed to steadfastly believe Hydras were better. I think right now it's favourable for progamers to use Muta Ling ZvZ because it's all they've ever used their whole StarCraft careers, and the quote above could be reversed to say the same thing. While it could be better, I think that it is perhaps unfair to say for certain one is better than the other, except for obvious facts like that no one can teach you hydra ZvZ, but everyone in progaming can tell you a million tricks in muta ZvZ. One is simply much more evolved and has shorter games than the epic hydra turtles. If you think about Tsunami's solutions for hydra ZvZ, he says to ensnare mutas attacking your base while you attack his, so that he can't come back to defend it in time... The decision making involved in hydra ZvZ to me would then seem apparently awkward compared to how one would normally view StarCraft. I just wish Tsunami still played SC so we could know what he could have been today i read tsunami's guide a few times a while back, and i like his ideas. although, his builds are now outdated. edit: if someone were to create a new build for the newer maps and playing styles i think hydras would do perfectly fine. | ||
KwarK
United States44056 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Elite]v[arine
United States264 Posts
On August 02 2008 08:49 KissBlade wrote: Against modern players, the only way you can win with hydras over mutas is if you're clearly at a skill level higher than your opponent or your opponent has no idea how to react against it. The common argument against mutalisks on hydras is that spore colonies can stall mutas. This is totally false because you basically have to waste your eco putting up spores asap around the spire timing so you're already wasting drones, initiative advantage (which ZvZ is all about). Ok, so you've prevented the initial muta harrass. now what? Well you can't have too much intel because he can muta your overlords. so you're playing blind versus him effectively. So you have to sit in y our base and build up. During that time he's sitting in his base and building up. You can both expand at roughly the same rate, I'll grant that since hydra supported expension doesnt' fare terribly against mutas as long as you're not expanding retardedly far away but you essentially play the game from zero initiative at all times because the moment you move out to attack, you will see something like 10 sunkens sprout up + possible lurker tech and his clump of mutas /will/ demolish one of your expos before you can defend it. In other words, you have a lot more oppurtunities to slip up more than him. Your only hope is to somehow catch up to him in hive tech when you get defilers or queens, both of which are godsends for hydras but so will he and I REPEAT, once he reaches critical mass of mutas you WILL be losing expos. Add that all up and not to mention certain player's incredible finesse with muta control, going hydras is really just a strat you can only pull if you're desperately behind the spire game. thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol) | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7577 Posts
I haven't used this strategy once after the rapings I took at the b-/b level last season ... at that level I was murdered EVERY GAME .... | ||
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
On August 02 2008 11:10 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol) hydra/scourge thats good... with a good mix it can own muta/ling.. hehe gotta try it.. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On August 02 2008 17:50 Stimpacked wrote: hydra/scourge thats good... with a good mix it can own muta/ling.. hehe gotta try it.. i dont think you can afford hydra / scourge mid game. You need gas for more hydras, tech and ups. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On August 02 2008 11:10 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol) One muta beats one hydra straight up. But that's not the point, the point is the muta user has way more advantage than you do. If you ever went on offense against a good muta user, you'll know, zerglings aren't the threat against critical mass hydras, what pwns your mass is always last minute sunkens sprouting up with mutas to defend. Because eventually the mutalisk user WILL catch you on a mistake and force you to try to base trade. | ||
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