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On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread.
i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine??
zerglings
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In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
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On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote:
In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta.
Not.
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On July 30 2008 14:14 bubblegumbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote:
In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear. Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta. Not. Yeah, because no one uses lings in zvz.
Not.
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pure mass hydras (yes i mean mass hydras, around like 70 hydras[fastest style]) will kill anything ZvZ
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EXCEPT 80 HYDRAS LOL
sry t.t
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hydras are good zvz but people just want fast wins so they go muta/ling...
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they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
Works very well.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On July 30 2008 06:30 Nitrogen23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread.
i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine?? zerglings
Very wrong. All gas goes to Mutalisks and extra minerals go to Drones and expansions until you approach the timing he's going to move out. Mutalisks provide map control and make your opponent defend two places at once. Zerglings are a fantastic support unit but are usless alone against a Hydralisk blob.
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote:
In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
... Early lurkers as the Hydra player or the Mutalisk player? Either way it's ridiculous. The Mutalisk player has Mutalisks, and the Hydralisk player can't move out because you have Mutalisks. If you try to get a third base using Hydras you're going to get one of your base cracked by his entire army. This advice makes little sense.
On July 30 2008 17:01 OmgIRok wrote:
pure mass hydras (yes i mean mass hydras, around like 70 hydras[fastest style]) will kill anything ZvZ
This is retarded.
On July 30 2008 19:32 Stimpacked wrote:
hydras are good zvz but people just want fast wins so they go muta/ling...
WOW GREAT THANKS FOR BRINGING SUCH GREAT CONVERSATIONS TO THE STRATEGY FORUM. Look, people are saying Hydralisks suck ZvZ for the most part. So if you want to take the position that they don't entirely such, the onus is on you to explain why they are good. Don't hit and run ("Hydras are great people are just lazy" and then never post again in the thread).
For example, to counter your point, I would say that 98% of the last Zerg VS Zerg matches at the progamer level were played with MutaLing, where the is no reward for winning quickly. Now, it's on you to retort that.
On July 30 2008 22:27 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
Works very well.
I king of agree. To have any chance of Hydras working you need to open somewhat greedy to establish an extra base much before your opponent normally would.
Stop douching up the strategy forum with your hit and run comments. Defend your position with logic or experience or even theories. You can't take a wild position and then describe it as if it's canon and move on.
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On July 30 2008 15:32 Blind wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 14:14 bubblegumbo wrote:On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote:
In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear. Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta. Not. Yeah, because no one uses lings in zvz. Not.
What do you think the mutas are there for, idiot.
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United States17042 Posts
It's tough to go hydra or even lurker in zvz. Hydras tend to get eaten by someone with good muta control (picking off hydra as they move around). Not only that, but hydra don't provide map control, and you're stuck trying to defend your main/nat mineral line.
Muta give you map control, and allow you to prevent your opponent from moving out by harassing their mineral lines when they try to move out. They also kill lurkers and zerglings no sweat 
Let's say for the sake of argument that you get enough hydras to defend both your main and nat. (probably ~12). You still haven't moved out, but you didn't build any static defense either. For the same cost in minerals (it costs about 600 more gas though for anyone who wants to counter the argument) you get 9 muta. 9 muta with control >> 12 hydras used to defend mineral and natural line.
Looking at 9 muta vs 12 hydra further, 9 muta have 1k hit points total if I remember correctly, and 12 hydra have 960 hitpoints total. Hydra have about the same range as microed muta if I remember correctly.
In summary, the speed and map control that 9 muta give you are are such large advantages that it's almost impossible to justify (at least at the pro level where muta micro is a given) going hydra.
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Wait, who says you don't build any static defense?
If you skip static defense I don't see how you'd hold the Mutas anyways, unless you opted for REALLY fast Hydralisks.
I know I am basing this off of just one game (Satanik vs. Lowely), but I've hardly ever seen Hydras actually used in ZvZ, I would be interested in seeing more replays of it though. Satanik timed his Evolution Chamber to be done about the time that Lowely's Spire is done, giving him time to get 2 Spores per mineral line. Also worth it to note that he didn't even get his gas until 8 minutes in.
I'm not going to argue it at a pro level, since I think that anyone who tried it at a pro level would get absolutely destroyed I'd assume.
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On July 30 2008 23:00 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 06:30 Nitrogen23 wrote:On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:
sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread.
i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine?? zerglings Very wrong. All gas goes to Mutalisks and extra minerals go to Drones and expansions until you approach the timing he's going to move out. Mutalisks provide map control and make your opponent defend two places at once. Zerglings are a fantastic support unit but are usless alone against a Hydralisk blob. Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote:
In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear. ... Early lurkers as the Hydra player or the Mutalisk player? Either way it's ridiculous. The Mutalisk player has Mutalisks, and the Hydralisk player can't move out because you have Mutalisks. If you try to get a third base using Hydras you're going to get one of your base cracked by his entire army. This advice makes little sense. Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 17:01 OmgIRok wrote:
pure mass hydras (yes i mean mass hydras, around like 70 hydras[fastest style]) will kill anything ZvZ This is retarded. Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 19:32 Stimpacked wrote:
hydras are good zvz but people just want fast wins so they go muta/ling... WOW GREAT THANKS FOR BRINGING SUCH GREAT CONVERSATIONS TO THE STRATEGY FORUM. Look, people are saying Hydralisks suck ZvZ for the most part. So if you want to take the position that they don't entirely such, the onus is on you to explain why they are good. Don't hit and run ("Hydras are great people are just lazy" and then never post again in the thread). For example, to counter your point, I would say that 98% of the last Zerg VS Zerg matches at the progamer level were played with MutaLing, where the is no reward for winning quickly. Now, it's on you to retort that. Show nested quote +On July 30 2008 22:27 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
Works very well. I king of agree. To have any chance of Hydras working you need to open somewhat greedy to establish an extra base much before your opponent normally would. <hr> Stop douching up the strategy forum with your hit and run comments. Defend your position with logic or experience or even theories. You can't take a wild position and then describe it as if it's canon and move on.
no offense chill but i've already posted the details earlier on this thread... yes you're right but if he is going pure mutas just put 2 spores more on you min line before you go out.. and plus your newly made hydras can help your spores if he tries to all-in counter attack your main... if the pros go muta/ling all the time maybe because they like faster offense than the defensive style... if the strat/build is rarely used it doesnt mean its not effective... well just my opinion.
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To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over. Not getting owned while you are turtling is the tricky part. You have to use a ton of spores in perfect positions. I've done this a few times and been successful. I usually lose if they break my turtle... Lurkers CAN be advantageous if they also go hydra in response to you doing it, it's kinda rare though.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote:
To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
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On July 31 2008 01:15 GoShox wrote:
Wait, who says you don't build any static defense?
If you skip static defense I don't see how you'd hold the Mutas anyways, unless you opted for REALLY fast Hydralisks.
I know I am basing this off of just one game (Satanik vs. Lowely), but I've hardly ever seen Hydras actually used in ZvZ, I would be interested in seeing more replays of it though. Satanik timed his Evolution Chamber to be done about the time that Lowely's Spire is done, giving him time to get 2 Spores per mineral line. Also worth it to note that he didn't even get his gas until 8 minutes in.
I'm not going to argue it at a pro level, since I think that anyone who tried it at a pro level would get absolutely destroyed I'd assume.
if you look at the video i posted a page or 2 ago (WCG 2007 highlights) i had that game in there.
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personally, i've never had any hydra BO succeed , unless ur already up another level against ur opponent ( him being the disadvantaged) and VICE VERSA ;
the only way to get hydra to work IMO, is if u FE into a ECO greedy build, works ok-ish, but u die like what 50% ? 9pool > fe 5pool> fe , hell i think 12pool speedlings could still rip you a new one,
for just... a chance to win? ( mutaling still wrecks, not to mention the ever so common LAN LATENCY muta micro )
or go for some ling all in which will put you ahead, but even then, why not just mutaling
tbh, this thread is going down in the gutters
wouldn't be surprised if it was closed soon O-o
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 31 2008 11:01 HeavOnEarth wrote:
personally, i've never had any hydra BO succeed , unless ur already up another level against ur opponent ( him being the disadvantaged) and VICE VERSA ;
the only way to get hydra to work IMO, is if u FE into a ECO greedy build, works ok-ish, but u die like what 50% ? 9pool > fe 5pool> fe , hell i think 12pool speedlings could still rip you a new one,
for just... a chance to win? ( mutaling still wrecks, not to mention the ever so common LAN LATENCY muta micro )
or go for some ling all in which will put you ahead, but even then, why not just mutaling
tbh, this thread is going down in the gutters
wouldn't be surprised if it was closed soon O-o
well... its still open.
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Hydras are the core of the ultimate late game zvz army supported by defilers, if you face hydras you add lurks and / or guards ( if you have enought gaz ) and if you face muta you add devs / queens.
The main problem is that this kind of situation almost never happen because hydra are usually badly owned early / midgame by mutaling because it is cheaper and faster and because contrarily to hydras mutas can harrass.
If you use hydras you have to be very defensive early and midgame because if you leave your base you will be countered by muts ( and you wont be able to afford 20 spores per base ). But on the other hand if you are too defensive your opponent will take a 3 gas and will pump mass mutas :/.
But yea if you can get to hive tech ( defilers ) / or a big blob of uppgraded hydras ( + not too behind in eco ) the muta guy is somewhat fucked ( like if hive tech in zvz is common lol and like if it is easy to not be behind in eco when you have no map control xD ).
Going hydra in ZvZ is a bit like going pure tank/ Goli + turrets in TvT. "technically" it is more effective but it is too slow to be always considered like a good choice. That is why people often use or open with vults / dropships / wraiths.
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On July 31 2008 04:45 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote:
To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over. I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
Then tell Day[9] he's an idiot.
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EPT
