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I know Mutas are much more mobile and Hydras need upgrades to be more efficient but do you think...
Poll: Are Hydras useless in ZvZ?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No, they are worth trying
I know small numbers of Hydras are easily countered by Zerglings.
I know it's easier to switch to Mutas after 9 Pool and speedlings
But Hydras when upgraded (especially with +1 Carapace) can take care of Mutas and Zerglings (lings die before even reaching Hydras) to the point when Mutas have to tank for Zerglings so they can reach Hydras and eat them... so do you think they are worth trying?
Does anyone have any reps or links to VODs with high(er) level of Hydra vs Muta(ling)?
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Im sure some close position maps may benefit hydralisks slightly? Im ignorant on zvz so i really dont know.
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I'm not completely sure, but if a Zvz somehow turns into a long game, they can be useful. I played against a zerg who after a while put down base defenses and made it impossible for me to attack him without losing more than I would gain. I needed to keep him contained and went for hydra/lurker while keeping air superiority. This would not have worked against a better player.
So basically, in long games versus players who aren't too good, hydras will eventually come in handy.
I think I saw in another thread that with upgrades and when you reach a certain critical mass, they can be a good counter to a lot of mutas, but again, this only works late into the game, and you have to survive that long, which does require mutas. You can never forgo the spire, in my opinion.
I have never seen hydras in a pro game though, the games are short and too intense to make losing one drone and 100mins/50gas an acceptable price.
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On July 21 2008 00:57 Cloud wrote:
Im sure some close position maps may benefit hydralisks slightly? Im ignorant on zvz so i really dont know.
big maps with lots of bases are good for hydras
u don't want mutas to be able to hit ur mineral line and be able to get back to their own base in time to defend it
but.... hydras are always bad vs top opponents because money for money they will beat ur hydras with muta/ling with good flanks
unless u can build up a huge army, but generally by then they get lurkers
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i guess if you know the person is gonna 9poolspeed 1lair -> muta u can open 12pool into 3hatch hydra, which is ok otherwise mutaling just wastes hydra imo =/
u could try hydra scourge but ppl these days have teh jaedong micro :O
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try 3 hatch hydras on 1 base(applicable only if he did'nt FE as most zergs nowadays dont)... 1st go 9pool make 6 lings try to attack and see if he is FE, if not just return your lings to block ramp. make 2nd hatch near ramp and 3rd hatch as you have cash, get gas and make den... as den is building, non stop drones (roughly about 18, 2 in each min patch) power up as you can have advantage economically as he is teching up fast to mutas or maybe massing speedlings... as your overlord can see, if his making lot of lings put a sunk on choke and add lings to just to block ramp.. now as soon his spire is almost finished put up an evo put 1or2 spore on min line and 1 on choke(nver forget to replace your scouting overlord as it is about to die), and dont get carapace or hydra upgrade from evo coz you really need that gas for hydras you just relly on pure mass... as soon as den finishes upgrade range first coz your just gonna defend with your hydras... non stop hydras from then on... upgrade speed and attack when you have about 2 groups of hydras plus more comming from your rallying hatcheries... time your attack well like when he tries to expand to catch up... it works well for me because of the economic advantage you have early and the 3hatches you have... his gonna think he can overrun you by his mutas but scattering your hydras near spores his not gonna do anything... then go out in time and just run him over... his reaction is either to non stop massing muta/ling or expand but right when he expands attack him and GG... muta ling cannot do anything from this build trust me just stick your hydras together and micro... its very effective for me at d+/c-/c levels... hope it helps.
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I wanted to write a guide on how to hydra ZvZ, but I decided I really wasn't good enough that anyone would care... I got about halfway thru it, and just went looking for it in my folders, but I can't seem to locate it... It's just based off what I saw Satanik do at WCG 2006 (?), so you can study his replays and ask yourself why it worked so well. It's just too bad Satanik never got to test his ZvZ against pros... He annihilated any foreign ZvZ with ease though (who presumably weren't complete jokes if they made it to WCG).
Well what do you know, I found it. It's just the detailed outline of the build.
+ Show Spoiler +Over pool
Drone till 11
Hatchery at nat
Zerglings till 15
Hatchery at 15
Zergling till 17
Overlord
2 drones to mine at nat
Zergling to 18 from nat
Creep colony at nat at 18
Zergling at first attack
Power drones when sunk is done
Evo chamber at 27
Drone, overlord
Two creep colonies at each base, for spore
keep powering drones
additional sunk at nat
+ 1 spore to each base
extractor
extractor at nat
Power drones still
Hydra den and carapace upgrade
Start pumping hydra, add 4th hatchery
upgrade hydra speed, upgrade to lair
upgrade hydra range when speed finishes
upgrade ranged attack when carapace finishes
build a spire
move out cautiously (just to scare other zerg), upgrade lurker aspect
upgrade ranged attack level 2
start morphing lurks in safety
save some lurk for d, move out with the rest, counter attack
keep hydra a little ahead of lurks
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I know it seems like that build goes way into the game, but you can pretty much follow it exactly up to taking your second gas if your opponent is playing normally (which it's a good idea to use to help block your sunks/spores from Zerglings, as well as using your hatcheries for the same end).
Hydra ZvZ is surprising very much dependant on building placement. It's also very dependant on good game sense because scouting is virtually impossible for you. Your opponent at least knows when you're moving out, but you have to be aware that he's taking his third, which third he's likely to take, and maybe somehow squeeze a gosu zergling to look for it. I've always thought a burrowed zergling would be useful for delaying an unsuspecting zerg's third, but it's both expensive, and easily countered once opponents know about it.
EDIT: Also, like any new build, it's difficult to win with at first... Even the old guides all say "Get ready to lose a lot before you start to win." Asking this build to work the first time for you against a competent opponent would be like asking to get Sair/Reaver to work the first time. These builds take experience and game sense to master.
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One hydra build i've been using with decent success is this:
9 overlord
9 pool
11 expo
-start building lings
13/14 gas
Depending on how much damage i do with lings and depending on his build, i might add a 3rd hatch and more drones. Otherwise i'll only make a couple of drones and add spores + hydra den.
This build is kinda cool because it forces him to defend your rush which is especially strong because you get the second hatch so early. He won't be able to expand or produce any drones, and you will probably force him to either delay his spire or use larvae he was saving for mutas.
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the thing with expanding is that you can get outrun or outnumbered by lings early game... by doing 1 base you exploit your ramp and just make less lings and 1 sunk... you can scout by your first 2 overlords on what he is doing most likely spire and 2 hatches... yes he can scout you doing mass hydra but his options are limited he either is gonna go pure mass muta/ling with one base or expand... if he expands time it right when to attack like when his boosting up his econ to catch up yours (scout with your initial lings)... if he denies you of scouting attack when you have 3 groups of hydras to be safe... this build is like your on defense early on and anticipate all his attacks and surprise him how quickly your hydra count goes up and you go out and run him over.
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I think they are worth trying on Bnet because of the latency problem but like a few spores and upgrades are essential for its sucess, but they become pretty useless on iccup.
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actually psychotemplar, i think that sataniks build is useless now because of how zvz has been evolving and how the muta harrass has been perfected. You can pretty much hit and hit drones and losing few mutas, so while the first zerg is trying to power the other just keeps getting his muta mass stronger.
late game i would consider much much stronger to get a defiler with plague rather than switch to hydra all along, because hydras are going to be un-upgraded and you'll need shitloads of minerals to get a proper mass.
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I do hydra a lot in zvz. Some tips:
- Requires fast expand
- Upgrades are important
- Play defense/set up your econ
- A few lurkers makes enemy's lings useless
- Defilers do great later on
This doesn't make hydra viable in zvz, but I think those are the best ways to approach it if you're going to do it anyway. In higher level zvz, timing and micro makes going hydra way too hard. I recommend watching most of Xiaozi's zvz reps, especially his game vs Satanik.
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if u can get away with 12 hatch u an pretty much dominate the game with hydras
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actually psychotemplar, i think that sataniks build is useless now because of how zvz has been evolving and how the muta harrass has been perfected. You can pretty much hit and hit drones and losing few mutas, so while the first zerg is trying to power the other just keeps getting his muta mass stronger.
I would agree hydra zvz isn't better than muta first zvz, but I don't think that's why. People have known about the stack muta trick a long time, and against spores it doesn't really matter. They eat up your mutas like nothing, and while you're making mutas and not drones, you're getting the bad end of the deal. The counter is to mass up mutas and take a third gas so that you can overwhelm a hydra zerg anyway. If you do lose mutas to spores, that's pretty much game for hydras because now they've made up for their numbers on your foolishness.
I've seen a bit of Blind's ZvZ (though it was from years ago lol), and I can say it's quite fun to watch  I think he's correct in everything he says here also.
If you're doing hydra ZvZ, you're basically reminiscing back to Tsunami's era of Zerg prowess. And good lord are those strategies ever ancient.
the thing with expanding is that you can get outrun or outnumbered by lings early game...
You're going 9pool 3 hatch, you're not going to get outnumbered by lings. You just need to properly guard your ramp and wall your sunk.
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for hydra zvz i open 9ol, extractor trick, 10hat(expansion), 10pool
gotta be big map
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Thank You very much for all comments and voting!! Especially builds !!
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The answer is yes and no.
I don't think hydras have much of any potential at the highest levels. I'd say only if you're VERY late into the game are they worth much (defilers + hydras + queens = deadly on open terrain during late game). Early game, I think modern Muta micro and modern timing making hydras more or less useless.
However, if you are fairly new to the game and play at or below the C rank level, I'd suggest giving hydras a try. It's good to learn how to use them effectively for the sake of improving your understanding of the game. Also, except at the highest levels, hydras CAN be used effectively.
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ive played vs ppl on zvz who used hydras. they put up a nice fight but with their attack type (explosive) against small units like mutas and lings would be cut to almost half. vs mutas, hydras have less hp, mobility, and less power, while mutas have that and splash damage. i havent played against that many zvz against hydras so i wouldn't really know, but thats what i think. i would stick to mutaling
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eh u wanna zvz im EzPzLmnSqz @ iccup and heavonearth @ west
Muta microing hydras should be fun <_<
PM MEH
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EPT
