I know Mutas are much more mobile and Hydras need upgrades to be more efficient but do you think...
Poll: Are Hydras useless in ZvZ? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No, they are worth trying
I know small numbers of Hydras are easily countered by Zerglings.
I know it's easier to switch to Mutas after 9 Pool and speedlings
But Hydras when upgraded (especially with +1 Carapace) can take care of Mutas and Zerglings (lings die before even reaching Hydras) to the point when Mutas have to tank for Zerglings so they can reach Hydras and eat them... so do you think they are worth trying? Does anyone have any reps or links to VODs with high(er) level of Hydra vs Muta(ling)?
I'm not completely sure, but if a Zvz somehow turns into a long game, they can be useful. I played against a zerg who after a while put down base defenses and made it impossible for me to attack him without losing more than I would gain. I needed to keep him contained and went for hydra/lurker while keeping air superiority. This would not have worked against a better player. So basically, in long games versus players who aren't too good, hydras will eventually come in handy. I think I saw in another thread that with upgrades and when you reach a certain critical mass, they can be a good counter to a lot of mutas, but again, this only works late into the game, and you have to survive that long, which does require mutas. You can never forgo the spire, in my opinion.
I have never seen hydras in a pro game though, the games are short and too intense to make losing one drone and 100mins/50gas an acceptable price.
i guess if you know the person is gonna 9poolspeed 1lair -> muta u can open 12pool into 3hatch hydra, which is ok otherwise mutaling just wastes hydra imo =/
u could try hydra scourge but ppl these days have teh jaedong micro :O
try 3 hatch hydras on 1 base(applicable only if he did'nt FE as most zergs nowadays dont)... 1st go 9pool make 6 lings try to attack and see if he is FE, if not just return your lings to block ramp. make 2nd hatch near ramp and 3rd hatch as you have cash, get gas and make den... as den is building, non stop drones (roughly about 18, 2 in each min patch) power up as you can have advantage economically as he is teching up fast to mutas or maybe massing speedlings... as your overlord can see, if his making lot of lings put a sunk on choke and add lings to just to block ramp.. now as soon his spire is almost finished put up an evo put 1or2 spore on min line and 1 on choke(nver forget to replace your scouting overlord as it is about to die), and dont get carapace or hydra upgrade from evo coz you really need that gas for hydras you just relly on pure mass... as soon as den finishes upgrade range first coz your just gonna defend with your hydras... non stop hydras from then on... upgrade speed and attack when you have about 2 groups of hydras plus more comming from your rallying hatcheries... time your attack well like when he tries to expand to catch up... it works well for me because of the economic advantage you have early and the 3hatches you have... his gonna think he can overrun you by his mutas but scattering your hydras near spores his not gonna do anything... then go out in time and just run him over... his reaction is either to non stop massing muta/ling or expand but right when he expands attack him and GG... muta ling cannot do anything from this build trust me just stick your hydras together and micro... its very effective for me at d+/c-/c levels... hope it helps.
I wanted to write a guide on how to hydra ZvZ, but I decided I really wasn't good enough that anyone would care... I got about halfway thru it, and just went looking for it in my folders, but I can't seem to locate it... It's just based off what I saw Satanik do at WCG 2006 (?), so you can study his replays and ask yourself why it worked so well. It's just too bad Satanik never got to test his ZvZ against pros... He annihilated any foreign ZvZ with ease though (who presumably weren't complete jokes if they made it to WCG).
Well what do you know, I found it. It's just the detailed outline of the build.
I know it seems like that build goes way into the game, but you can pretty much follow it exactly up to taking your second gas if your opponent is playing normally (which it's a good idea to use to help block your sunks/spores from Zerglings, as well as using your hatcheries for the same end).
Hydra ZvZ is surprising very much dependant on building placement. It's also very dependant on good game sense because scouting is virtually impossible for you. Your opponent at least knows when you're moving out, but you have to be aware that he's taking his third, which third he's likely to take, and maybe somehow squeeze a gosu zergling to look for it. I've always thought a burrowed zergling would be useful for delaying an unsuspecting zerg's third, but it's both expensive, and easily countered once opponents know about it.
EDIT: Also, like any new build, it's difficult to win with at first... Even the old guides all say "Get ready to lose a lot before you start to win." Asking this build to work the first time for you against a competent opponent would be like asking to get Sair/Reaver to work the first time. These builds take experience and game sense to master.
One hydra build i've been using with decent success is this:
9 overlord 9 pool 11 expo -start building lings 13/14 gas
Depending on how much damage i do with lings and depending on his build, i might add a 3rd hatch and more drones. Otherwise i'll only make a couple of drones and add spores + hydra den.
This build is kinda cool because it forces him to defend your rush which is especially strong because you get the second hatch so early. He won't be able to expand or produce any drones, and you will probably force him to either delay his spire or use larvae he was saving for mutas.
the thing with expanding is that you can get outrun or outnumbered by lings early game... by doing 1 base you exploit your ramp and just make less lings and 1 sunk... you can scout by your first 2 overlords on what he is doing most likely spire and 2 hatches... yes he can scout you doing mass hydra but his options are limited he either is gonna go pure mass muta/ling with one base or expand... if he expands time it right when to attack like when his boosting up his econ to catch up yours (scout with your initial lings)... if he denies you of scouting attack when you have 3 groups of hydras to be safe... this build is like your on defense early on and anticipate all his attacks and surprise him how quickly your hydra count goes up and you go out and run him over.
I think they are worth trying on Bnet because of the latency problem but like a few spores and upgrades are essential for its sucess, but they become pretty useless on iccup.
actually psychotemplar, i think that sataniks build is useless now because of how zvz has been evolving and how the muta harrass has been perfected. You can pretty much hit and hit drones and losing few mutas, so while the first zerg is trying to power the other just keeps getting his muta mass stronger.
late game i would consider much much stronger to get a defiler with plague rather than switch to hydra all along, because hydras are going to be un-upgraded and you'll need shitloads of minerals to get a proper mass.
I do hydra a lot in zvz. Some tips: - Requires fast expand - Upgrades are important - Play defense/set up your econ - A few lurkers makes enemy's lings useless - Defilers do great later on
This doesn't make hydra viable in zvz, but I think those are the best ways to approach it if you're going to do it anyway. In higher level zvz, timing and micro makes going hydra way too hard. I recommend watching most of Xiaozi's zvz reps, especially his game vs Satanik.
actually psychotemplar, i think that sataniks build is useless now because of how zvz has been evolving and how the muta harrass has been perfected. You can pretty much hit and hit drones and losing few mutas, so while the first zerg is trying to power the other just keeps getting his muta mass stronger.
I would agree hydra zvz isn't better than muta first zvz, but I don't think that's why. People have known about the stack muta trick a long time, and against spores it doesn't really matter. They eat up your mutas like nothing, and while you're making mutas and not drones, you're getting the bad end of the deal. The counter is to mass up mutas and take a third gas so that you can overwhelm a hydra zerg anyway. If you do lose mutas to spores, that's pretty much game for hydras because now they've made up for their numbers on your foolishness.
I've seen a bit of Blind's ZvZ (though it was from years ago lol), and I can say it's quite fun to watch I think he's correct in everything he says here also.
If you're doing hydra ZvZ, you're basically reminiscing back to Tsunami's era of Zerg prowess. And good lord are those strategies ever ancient.
the thing with expanding is that you can get outrun or outnumbered by lings early game...
You're going 9pool 3 hatch, you're not going to get outnumbered by lings. You just need to properly guard your ramp and wall your sunk.
I don't think hydras have much of any potential at the highest levels. I'd say only if you're VERY late into the game are they worth much (defilers + hydras + queens = deadly on open terrain during late game). Early game, I think modern Muta micro and modern timing making hydras more or less useless.
However, if you are fairly new to the game and play at or below the C rank level, I'd suggest giving hydras a try. It's good to learn how to use them effectively for the sake of improving your understanding of the game. Also, except at the highest levels, hydras CAN be used effectively.
ive played vs ppl on zvz who used hydras. they put up a nice fight but with their attack type (explosive) against small units like mutas and lings would be cut to almost half. vs mutas, hydras have less hp, mobility, and less power, while mutas have that and splash damage. i havent played against that many zvz against hydras so i wouldn't really know, but thats what i think. i would stick to mutaling
The standard ZvZ Hydra Build I use is the same that Satanik used verse Lowely on Baekdu in WCG 2007. It is in highlight videos and the replay is floating around somewhere.
Just think of sheer numbers. For 300/100 you can get 4 hydralisks (for a total of 20 damage/shot vs small units and 320 hp) or 1 mutalisk and 8 zerglings (for a total of 49 damage/shot and 400 hp). While they cost the same, the latter is faster, they have more total hit points, they do more total damage, and the mutas fly (more mobile). The only advantage of hydras is that they have range while half the opponent's army doesn't (and maybe that you have fewer units to hotkey LOL). In numbers the ranged attack no longer matters because the lings will swarm over the hydras while the mutas take the first salvo of shots. Expanding the numbers, you'll get an initial small army of 32 hydralisks vs 8 mutas and 64 zerglings. It's easy to see who wins. The ratio of 8:1 lings:muta might look odd, but when someone goes hydras both players will powerdrone, making their min:gas ratio much higher than a normal zvz.
On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does.
I'm no Z player, but I recently watched that Satanik vs. Lowely game (I saw it on a highlight video a while back and DL'ed and watched it 2 days ago), and it was pretty awesome.
The replay is on the WCG site, but you have to go through a bunch of stuff to get through it, so I uploaded it to RepDepot:
hydras work nicely if you can somehow protect your mineral line from muta harrass. and prevent the enemy from simply going AROUND ur army when you move out and counter by attacking ur base.
1 muta 2 lings(150mins 100 gas) vs 2 hydras (150mins 50 gas) = who would win? i think if you micro correctly hydras would win and you hav 50gas advantage well i dont know... and maybe if he goes 1muta 8 lings (300mins 100 gas)can easily overcome 4 hydras(300 mins 100gas) but if he goes 2 mutas and 4 lings its different story. so it all depends on the unit mix and the way he flanks coz sometimes lings come in line while the hydras are grouped together and very easy to micro... yes the satanik build is better because of FE but it's like a macro game attack and what if he goes guards your totally screwed up you need swarm to counter it and theres lings to eat your swarmed hydras so you must have lurkers etc... but for 3hatch 1 base its like suprising him with a lot of hydras in just one base, the aim is to kill him fast bec of your 3hatches and the drone count would almost be equally the same than FE'ing since most zergs will not make that many drones in each expo and you can also limit the number of lings and its much safer... with equal bases considering he didnt FE'd you can fight him off...
On July 21 2008 12:07 LonelyMargarita wrote: Just think of sheer numbers. For 300/100 you can get 4 hydralisks (for a total of 20 damage/shot vs small units and 320 hp) or 1 mutalisk and 8 zerglings (for a total of 49 damage/shot and 400 hp). While they cost the same, the latter is faster, they have more total hit points, they do more total damage, and the mutas fly (more mobile). The only advantage of hydras is that they have range while half the opponent's army doesn't (and maybe that you have fewer units to hotkey LOL). In numbers the ranged attack no longer matters because the lings will swarm over the hydras while the mutas take the first salvo of shots. Expanding the numbers, you'll get an initial small army of 32 hydralisks vs 8 mutas and 64 zerglings. It's easy to see who wins. The ratio of 8:1 lings:muta might look odd, but when someone goes hydras both players will powerdrone, making their min:gas ratio much higher than a normal zvz.
On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does.
Can you do more calculations, but include the cost of 3-4 lurkers with the hydras? I'm interested to see how the result would look. Either way, looking at just pure numbers can be misleading since different styles will require different economies.
On July 21 2008 12:07 LonelyMargarita wrote: Just think of sheer numbers. For 300/100 you can get 4 hydralisks (for a total of 20 damage/shot vs small units and 320 hp) or 1 mutalisk and 8 zerglings (for a total of 49 damage/shot and 400 hp). While they cost the same, the latter is faster, they have more total hit points, they do more total damage, and the mutas fly (more mobile). The only advantage of hydras is that they have range while half the opponent's army doesn't (and maybe that you have fewer units to hotkey LOL). In numbers the ranged attack no longer matters because the lings will swarm over the hydras while the mutas take the first salvo of shots. Expanding the numbers, you'll get an initial small army of 32 hydralisks vs 8 mutas and 64 zerglings. It's easy to see who wins. The ratio of 8:1 lings:muta might look odd, but when someone goes hydras both players will powerdrone, making their min:gas ratio much higher than a normal zvz.
On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does.
Can you do more calculations, but include the cost of 3-4 lurkers with the hydras? I'm interested to see how the result would look. Either way, looking at just pure numbers can be misleading since different styles will require different economies.
You need respectable hydra numbers to prevent mutas sniping lurkers; so I imagine you will not afford lurker tech until comparatively late in the game (in terms of ZvZ). And you have to expect your opponent to adapt his muta/ling mix seeing your lurkers - what you have less in hydras to allow for lurks, he will have more in muta.
And even lurkers still do not solve the problem of your inferior mobility - even if you have enough hydralurk to be on par with his muta/ling, they cannot be in two places at once :-) I.e., when you move out far enough, you'll have tons of mutas tearing up your nat, being back in time to defend your push.
I do not have to point out that this means map control for your opponent and wild expoing :-)
On July 21 2008 21:30 Chill wrote: If you are D, Hydas are viable. Hydras benefit from being in a huge group, so try to draw the game out and stall for +2 carapace.
If you are C, Hydras are useless. Your base and stray Hydras will be picked apart by Muta micro. The second you move out you will lose your main.
So just sort of a random question, assuming you saw the Satanik vs. Lowely game, why did it work so well for Satanik?
He spent so much money on Spores to defend (even doing this he lost many Drones and Hydras to harass anyways, plus all the Drones used to make buildings) and it took him forever to get enough Hydras. Did Lowely just not harass well enough, or should he have tried to take more of the map rather than just the one expansion he took?
I'm not saying that since it worked for Satanik it would work for every player, plus it was only one game, I'm just curious as to how he didn't lose that game.
On July 21 2008 21:30 Chill wrote: If you are D, Hydas are viable. Hydras benefit from being in a huge group, so try to draw the game out and stall for +2 carapace.
If you are C, Hydras are useless. Your base and stray Hydras will be picked apart by Muta micro. The second you move out you will lose your main.
So just sort of a random question, assuming you saw the Satanik vs. Lowely game, why did it work so well for Satanik?
He spent so much money on Spores to defend (even doing this he lost many Drones and Hydras to harass anyways, plus all the Drones used to make buildings) and it took him forever to get enough Hydras. Did Lowely just not harass well enough, or should he have tried to take more of the map rather than just the one expansion he took?
I'm not saying that since it worked for Satanik it would work for every player, plus it was only one game, I'm just curious as to how he didn't lose that game.
I haven't seen the game, just random highlights from a video. I'd assume Lowely didn't overexpand or lost his Mutas instead of balling up.
watch the replay of satanik vs incontrol on some space tileset map( i think its in the gg.net replay db) awesome ZvZ play!!!! (almost every Zerg Unit used!!!!)
EDIT: yeah like Shallow pointed out its XiaoZi in this rep against Satanik not Incontrol (must have mixed up the ToT)Players( at that time sorry), no matter what that rep is possibly the best ZvZ ive seen in a long time.
props to tsunami for being one of the most inspiring Zerg theorycrafters and to satanik for being one of the few to have the guts to pull unorthodox strategies out of his bag every now and then!!!!
The fact that muta/ling is more cost efficient than hydra doesn't really matter. The point is to get a fast expand and have more drones than opponent so you can have more units at a certain point of time. It's possible to both power and defend since you don't spend minerals on tech.
Playing this way, there will probably be a timing window where you can attack (not too late since he must not have enough mutas to kill you when you move out). Remember that sunkens are pretty weak vs a hydra/ling force if there is enough room to attack. If he gets a sizeable muta force early you will be ahead in economy and play defense. But the problem is that you are playing blind with no way to scout so you pretty much have to guess the best time to move out and attack.
He could be teching hive in which case you want to attack before guardians/defilers are ready. If he just masses mutas you might want to delay the attack but then again he can't be allowed to build a superior economy and it's hard to tell. Against lurkers it will be a hive vs hive game. And no, a good player will usually not lose to a pure hydra timing attack but Satanik and others has shown that similar builds can work.
The cool thing is using 2/3 Lurkers which just mutilates every single Zergling, and that means your opponent has to rely on his Mutalisks only. So that is when the true macro fight comes into test.
On July 22 2008 02:40 cyronc wrote: watch the replay of satanik vs incontrol on some space tileset map( i think its in the gg.net replay db) awesome ZvZ play!!!! (almost every Zerg Unit used!!!!)
On July 22 2008 02:40 cyronc wrote: watch the replay of satanik vs incontrol on some space tileset map( i think its in the gg.net replay db) awesome ZvZ play!!!! (almost every Zerg Unit used!!!!)
On July 22 2008 02:40 cyronc wrote: watch the replay of satanik vs incontrol on some space tileset map( i think its in the gg.net replay db) awesome ZvZ play!!!! (almost every Zerg Unit used!!!!)
When countering hydras, muta/ling is always going to be more effective than just pure lings. He likely is getting carapace upgrades and especially in larger numbers, lings die quite quickly to hydras. What are you doing with your gas anyway? The mutas are there as the meat shields while the zerglings do the damage.
This is such an important and basic aspect of using muta/ling and i'm surprised by how many people are careless about it. You ALWAYS send the mutas before the lings: against hydras, m&m, goliaths, goons. Sending the zerglings first results in the lings all dying and the mutas fighting alone.
On July 23 2008 09:39 BlackStar wrote: Just lost vs some idiot doing random pure hydra. I don't know anything about ZvZ except seeing some progames.
I was under the impression pure ling would totally own it. I totally outmacroed the guy and waited for cracklings. Got 3 kills and he like 130.
Pure Zergling armies get shredded by Hydralisks; as Lxrogue says, you need the Mutalisks to take the hits. Don't forget to upgrade attack/carapace as well, attack is ideal on your Zerglings while carapace is recommended on your Mutalisks. Hydralisk users already have the evolution chamber due to their spore colonies, so they tend to have fast 1/1 upgrades; you can't let them get to 2/1 or 2/2 without upgrading yourself or you're fucked.
Tsunami an oldschool player had a covincing showcase of hydra vs muta. He stopped the mutaharass with some Spore went one base 2hatch hydra I believe and had a big enough hydraball to kill the expo before the expo could pay of. He killed the mutalingarmy with hydra only. I don't know if his site still exists. He wrote his own strategy guide. The timming of the attack is critical. One geyser is enough.
If you watch Team Liquid Attack episode 4 with xiaozi you will see an example of a hydralisk build used effectively. Granted, his opponent wasn't that great. It only really works if you have a large economic lead. Also, I think +1 attack for the hydras is much more effective.
WCG 2007 Highlights: Watch from 2:12 to 3:22 1-1 mass hydra FTW!!!
WOW this is epic video!!
GoShox if you meant this game, game itself is AMAZING, especially made like this! I can watch it all over again! (haven't watch watch rep, there is too much shit to do with patches to be able to watch it)
EDIT: LOL LOOK AT POLL X) edit2: there was 99votes x))
hydralisks are useful when you can counter mutalisks with defilers. but even still, the mutalisks might have won the game already because they are great for map control.
On July 24 2008 09:55 KaasZerg wrote: Tsunami an oldschool player had a covincing showcase of hydra vs muta. He stopped the mutaharass with some Spore went one base 2hatch hydra I believe and had a big enough hydraball to kill the expo before the expo could pay of. He killed the mutalingarmy with hydra only. I don't know if his site still exists. He wrote his own strategy guide. The timming of the attack is critical. One geyser is enough.
I think Tsunami wrote a really long analysis on Hydra/Queen against Mutaling. It was pretty convincing, but this was back in 1.08 and strategies have certainly evolved since then. He had some example replays as well, but I don't know if they're still available somewhere.
EDIT: Hahaha, his guide is still up. Really nostalgic.
Back when I had the balls to do it (1.09 or so) I always added queens and ensnared the mutas. Is that still viable vs the improved stacking of mutas? How does plauge compare to ensnare? Queens are alot more mobile and easy to use (vs mutas) than defilers but I'm still not sure.
I would say ensnare would be worth it to slow the attack of the mutas and such but granted you can get to defilers plague seems to be worth it. You can do that epic gosu lure his huge muta army into 2 defilers plague the fuck out of them then kill as they run away move.
On July 29 2008 18:45 Kizlyk wrote: Notforu (top russian player) once recorded FPVOD when he used hydralisks in ZvZ vs another good player, here it is:
sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread. i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine??
On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread. i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine??
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote: In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta. Not.
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote: In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta. Not.
they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread. i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine??
zerglings
Very wrong. All gas goes to Mutalisks and extra minerals go to Drones and expansions until you approach the timing he's going to move out. Mutalisks provide map control and make your opponent defend two places at once. Zerglings are a fantastic support unit but are usless alone against a Hydralisk blob.
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote: In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
... Early lurkers as the Hydra player or the Mutalisk player? Either way it's ridiculous. The Mutalisk player has Mutalisks, and the Hydralisk player can't move out because you have Mutalisks. If you try to get a third base using Hydras you're going to get one of your base cracked by his entire army. This advice makes little sense.
On July 30 2008 17:01 OmgIRok wrote: pure mass hydras (yes i mean mass hydras, around like 70 hydras[fastest style]) will kill anything ZvZ
This is retarded.
On July 30 2008 19:32 Stimpacked wrote: hydras are good zvz but people just want fast wins so they go muta/ling...
WOW GREAT THANKS FOR BRINGING SUCH GREAT CONVERSATIONS TO THE STRATEGY FORUM. Look, people are saying Hydralisks suck ZvZ for the most part. So if you want to take the position that they don't entirely such, the onus is on you to explain why they are good. Don't hit and run ("Hydras are great people are just lazy" and then never post again in the thread).
For example, to counter your point, I would say that 98% of the last Zerg VS Zerg matches at the progamer level were played with MutaLing, where the is no reward for winning quickly. Now, it's on you to retort that.
On July 30 2008 22:27 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
Works very well.
I king of agree. To have any chance of Hydras working you need to open somewhat greedy to establish an extra base much before your opponent normally would.
Stop douching up the strategy forum with your hit and run comments. Defend your position with logic or experience or even theories. You can't take a wild position and then describe it as if it's canon and move on.
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote: In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
Yes, lurkers are great in zvz when your opponent masses muta. Not.
It's tough to go hydra or even lurker in zvz. Hydras tend to get eaten by someone with good muta control (picking off hydra as they move around). Not only that, but hydra don't provide map control, and you're stuck trying to defend your main/nat mineral line.
Muta give you map control, and allow you to prevent your opponent from moving out by harassing their mineral lines when they try to move out. They also kill lurkers and zerglings no sweat
Let's say for the sake of argument that you get enough hydras to defend both your main and nat. (probably ~12). You still haven't moved out, but you didn't build any static defense either. For the same cost in minerals (it costs about 600 more gas though for anyone who wants to counter the argument) you get 9 muta. 9 muta with control >> 12 hydras used to defend mineral and natural line.
Looking at 9 muta vs 12 hydra further, 9 muta have 1k hit points total if I remember correctly, and 12 hydra have 960 hitpoints total. Hydra have about the same range as microed muta if I remember correctly.
In summary, the speed and map control that 9 muta give you are are such large advantages that it's almost impossible to justify (at least at the pro level where muta micro is a given) going hydra.
Wait, who says you don't build any static defense?
If you skip static defense I don't see how you'd hold the Mutas anyways, unless you opted for REALLY fast Hydralisks.
I know I am basing this off of just one game (Satanik vs. Lowely), but I've hardly ever seen Hydras actually used in ZvZ, I would be interested in seeing more replays of it though. Satanik timed his Evolution Chamber to be done about the time that Lowely's Spire is done, giving him time to get 2 Spores per mineral line. Also worth it to note that he didn't even get his gas until 8 minutes in.
I'm not going to argue it at a pro level, since I think that anyone who tried it at a pro level would get absolutely destroyed I'd assume.
On July 30 2008 06:23 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: sorry for hijacking (is that spelling right?) this thread. i was wondering what would i do if both me and my opponent decide upon opening hydras instead of mutas? how does that turn out and what should i do in response to his hydras and mine??
zerglings
Very wrong. All gas goes to Mutalisks and extra minerals go to Drones and expansions until you approach the timing he's going to move out. Mutalisks provide map control and make your opponent defend two places at once. Zerglings are a fantastic support unit but are usless alone against a Hydralisk blob.
On July 30 2008 08:23 GeneralZap wrote: In my opinion lurkers are best for the beggining of the game, in my experiences, they let you expand without fear.
... Early lurkers as the Hydra player or the Mutalisk player? Either way it's ridiculous. The Mutalisk player has Mutalisks, and the Hydralisk player can't move out because you have Mutalisks. If you try to get a third base using Hydras you're going to get one of your base cracked by his entire army. This advice makes little sense.
On July 30 2008 19:32 Stimpacked wrote: hydras are good zvz but people just want fast wins so they go muta/ling...
WOW GREAT THANKS FOR BRINGING SUCH GREAT CONVERSATIONS TO THE STRATEGY FORUM. Look, people are saying Hydralisks suck ZvZ for the most part. So if you want to take the position that they don't entirely such, the onus is on you to explain why they are good. Don't hit and run ("Hydras are great people are just lazy" and then never post again in the thread).
For example, to counter your point, I would say that 98% of the last Zerg VS Zerg matches at the progamer level were played with MutaLing, where the is no reward for winning quickly. Now, it's on you to retort that.
On July 30 2008 22:27 Zerg_Sasuke wrote: they are good after 3 hatch lings or 9 hatch 9 pool ol , if u succed with this u ll get away with better macro . Spores , then mass up 3 groups and gogo
Works very well.
I king of agree. To have any chance of Hydras working you need to open somewhat greedy to establish an extra base much before your opponent normally would.
<hr> Stop douching up the strategy forum with your hit and run comments. Defend your position with logic or experience or even theories. You can't take a wild position and then describe it as if it's canon and move on.
no offense chill but i've already posted the details earlier on this thread... yes you're right but if he is going pure mutas just put 2 spores more on you min line before you go out.. and plus your newly made hydras can help your spores if he tries to all-in counter attack your main... if the pros go muta/ling all the time maybe because they like faster offense than the defensive style... if the strat/build is rarely used it doesnt mean its not effective... well just my opinion.
To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over. Not getting owned while you are turtling is the tricky part. You have to use a ton of spores in perfect positions. I've done this a few times and been successful. I usually lose if they break my turtle... Lurkers CAN be advantageous if they also go hydra in response to you doing it, it's kinda rare though.
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote: To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
On July 31 2008 01:15 GoShox wrote: Wait, who says you don't build any static defense?
If you skip static defense I don't see how you'd hold the Mutas anyways, unless you opted for REALLY fast Hydralisks.
I know I am basing this off of just one game (Satanik vs. Lowely), but I've hardly ever seen Hydras actually used in ZvZ, I would be interested in seeing more replays of it though. Satanik timed his Evolution Chamber to be done about the time that Lowely's Spire is done, giving him time to get 2 Spores per mineral line. Also worth it to note that he didn't even get his gas until 8 minutes in.
I'm not going to argue it at a pro level, since I think that anyone who tried it at a pro level would get absolutely destroyed I'd assume.
if you look at the video i posted a page or 2 ago (WCG 2007 highlights) i had that game in there.
personally, i've never had any hydra BO succeed , unless ur already up another level against ur opponent ( him being the disadvantaged) and VICE VERSA ; the only way to get hydra to work IMO, is if u FE into a ECO greedy build, works ok-ish, but u die like what 50% ? 9pool > fe 5pool> fe , hell i think 12pool speedlings could still rip you a new one, for just... a chance to win? ( mutaling still wrecks, not to mention the ever so common LAN LATENCY muta micro )
or go for some ling all in which will put you ahead, but even then, why not just mutaling
tbh, this thread is going down in the gutters wouldn't be surprised if it was closed soon O-o
On July 31 2008 11:01 HeavOnEarth wrote: personally, i've never had any hydra BO succeed , unless ur already up another level against ur opponent ( him being the disadvantaged) and VICE VERSA ; the only way to get hydra to work IMO, is if u FE into a ECO greedy build, works ok-ish, but u die like what 50% ? 9pool > fe 5pool> fe , hell i think 12pool speedlings could still rip you a new one, for just... a chance to win? ( mutaling still wrecks, not to mention the ever so common LAN LATENCY muta micro )
or go for some ling all in which will put you ahead, but even then, why not just mutaling
tbh, this thread is going down in the gutters wouldn't be surprised if it was closed soon O-o
Hydras are the core of the ultimate late game zvz army supported by defilers, if you face hydras you add lurks and / or guards ( if you have enought gaz ) and if you face muta you add devs / queens.
The main problem is that this kind of situation almost never happen because hydra are usually badly owned early / midgame by mutaling because it is cheaper and faster and because contrarily to hydras mutas can harrass.
If you use hydras you have to be very defensive early and midgame because if you leave your base you will be countered by muts ( and you wont be able to afford 20 spores per base ). But on the other hand if you are too defensive your opponent will take a 3 gas and will pump mass mutas :/.
But yea if you can get to hive tech ( defilers ) / or a big blob of uppgraded hydras ( + not too behind in eco ) the muta guy is somewhat fucked ( like if hive tech in zvz is common lol and like if it is easy to not be behind in eco when you have no map control xD ).
Going hydra in ZvZ is a bit like going pure tank/ Goli + turrets in TvT. "technically" it is more effective but it is too slow to be always considered like a good choice. That is why people often use or open with vults / dropships / wraiths.
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote: To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
If we look it that way, upgraded mutalisks can again easily take hydras.
And although the more hydra you have the stronger they are and certainly stronger than mutalisk speaking of cost per damage, but the lack of mobility and being easily countered by zerglings they aren't much good, except if you somehow mass them up and surprise the enemy zerg, but that won't happen in a serious game so....
On a personal note, I agree that going hydras in zvz gives your opponent an advantage, if they are accomplished enough to know how to capitalize on it.
Thanks, Vaul :O You have a very pleasant commentating voice. I have a question for you though... When you do your VOD commentaries, why not record the replays with RWA as well? That way anyone who wants to watch the replays with your commentary can do so (presenting the advantage of putting the screen where ever one wants), while people who prefer to sit back at let a video do all the work can do so as well?
It's a bit more work to upload the 10mb replay, but I know I personally would appreciate an RWA format if it was not too much trouble.
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote: To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
Then tell Day[9] he's an idiot.
Posting "Hydras are better than Mutas" is retarded. Posting "I went 53-1" is retarded. Regardless, Day[9] doesn't back up your statement that "when you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over." That statement is retarded because there is literally no army in any matchup of StarCraft that is autowin. And if there were, it certainly isn't 40 Hydralisks in ZvZ.
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote: To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
Then tell Day[9] he's an idiot.
Posting "Hydras are better than Mutas" is retarded. Posting "I went 53-1" is retarded. Regardless, Day[9] doesn't back up your statement that "when you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over." That statement is retarded because there is literally no army in any matchup of StarCraft that is autowin. And if there were, it certainly isn't 40 Hydralisks in ZvZ.
Just ask him for a few of the many reps, I'm not gonna post 'em cause they aren't mine to do so. I'm sure I missed a detail or two, but all of that was the basic jist. Take some Tums and chill, your ID is very ironic.
Yeah it's not autowin, but your chances are pretty good. If you made it that far and have that sort of setup, which seems to be consistent in his reps, it looks positive. Like I said, every time I have kept my defense strong enough to get to the 2-2 point, I've won most of the time. I seem to lose more if they counter with hydras themselves.
EDIT: I don't care to argue. My point is that it IS POSSIBLE and can be done very well, like I've seen it. It's not good for a strategy forum to be narrow minded when these things can work. The poll isn't 99% useless to 1% not. It's almost 40% that say it's useful. This isn't the "how Chill plays forum", don't treat it like it is. Investigate some possibilities before you shut something down. You didn't even ask Day about it.
Hydras in zvz only work in special scenarios and on limited maps, and requires a bit of luck to execute.
Basically you take an early expansion, ward off the initial harassment with either regular spire openings or evo with spores and sunks early on, "turtle" per say, and tech your hydra upgrades up far. Once you have a handful with a few hotkeys, you move out for the blow. However since there is that moment of passiveness, it is very easy for the other player to take up another 3rd gas expansion and mass up cumulatively further than you will, but there is an opening to attack when the 3rd gas expo is just starting or the income hasn't begun to pay off yet. Further examples of this can be found from an old game between satanik vs xiaozi: http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=746 Testie vs Mondragon on RH3 http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/5763 A more recent game on Blue storm: http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1032
I would disagree with anyone who says that hydras totally useless, if a zvz manages to get into a late game phase and both players have a wealthy gas heavy eco going, a deflier basically destroys the effective nature of mutas and hydras come into play to match with swarm and simply being more cost effective.
I've also seen it happen on 815, between yellow and ggplay where they were absurdly far from each other and was not possible to have an easy secondary gas, so a slew of tech switching from muta to defliers and to hydras came into play.
I couldn't find a Korean commentary version, so your going to have to deal with this crap English one :[ + Show Spoiler [ggplayvsyellow] +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2g7yGgTMY
Also I would like to make note that I think it works/far more possible with lower levels such as amateur/foreigner simply because pros have a better understanding of the flow of zvz and crucial timing moments.
I don't think they're worthless, but you do have to assemble some form of critical mass to make them useful. You can't move out with small numbers of them - else you'll be completely cut down by speedlings.
On July 31 2008 04:32 Quesadilla wrote: To make hydras work. You have to 9 pool, 3 hatch, sunken up immediately even block w/ evo chambers, turtle up until you have them at 2-2. If they went muta, doesn't matter how many they've made. Even if they have guardians. When you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over.
I stopped reading here because your retardation was melting my brain.
Then tell Day[9] he's an idiot.
Posting "Hydras are better than Mutas" is retarded. Posting "I went 53-1" is retarded. Regardless, Day[9] doesn't back up your statement that "when you bust out with 40+ 2-2 hydras, it's over." That statement is retarded because there is literally no army in any matchup of StarCraft that is autowin. And if there were, it certainly isn't 40 Hydralisks in ZvZ.
Yeah it's not autowin, but your chances are pretty good. If you made it that far and have that sort of setup, which seems to be consistent in his reps, it looks positive. Like I said, every time I have kept my defense strong enough to get to the 2-2 point, I've won most of the time. I seem to lose more if they counter with hydras themselves.
That's fair. As I see it, it plays out exactly like Muta vs metal, except easier. Zerg gets Mutalisks out and expands, the other Zerg turtles for 10 minutes. Mutalisk Zerg takes 3 bases and amasses Mutalisks. The second Hydralisk Zerg moves out he loses his main, and Mutalisks Zerg turtles his remaining expo.
EDIT: I don't care to argue. My point is that it IS POSSIBLE and can be done very well, like I've seen it. It's not good for a strategy forum to be narrow minded when these things can work. The poll isn't 99% useless to 1% not. It's almost 40% that say it's useful. This isn't the "how Chill plays forum", don't treat it like it is. Investigate some possibilities before you shut something down. You didn't even ask Day about it.
Any strategy is possible. The point I'm asking is whether or not this is stronger than standard play in any situation. And my opinion is it's not, backed up by the fact that no progamer ever does it, foreigners rarely do it, and the short strategic analysis I've done above. It's like going metal on Python vs Z; you can steal some games off weaker players, but you're making it harder on yourself.
Day is free to give whatever analysis or evidence he wants. As is anyone else!
Now, before you start thinking to yourself "Why is he wasting his time posting a Muta/Ling vs Hydra/Lurker guide, when we already know that Muta/Ling > Hydra/Ling." Go tell that to someone like 1st~Tsunami. Hydra/Lurker can be a viable option vs Muta/Ling, but I do not believe that it's better than Muta/Ling. Often enough it isn't the strategy itself, but it's the execution of that strategy that matters most. A person that has experience using a second rate strategy, will do much better than they will if they had used the best strategy having no experience ever using it. They have the timing, the knowledge, and know how to EXECUTE IT.
Although Tsunami seemed to steadfastly believe Hydras were better.
I think right now it's favourable for progamers to use Muta Ling ZvZ because it's all they've ever used their whole StarCraft careers, and the quote above could be reversed to say the same thing. While it could be better, I think that it is perhaps unfair to say for certain one is better than the other, except for obvious facts like that no one can teach you hydra ZvZ, but everyone in progaming can tell you a million tricks in muta ZvZ. One is simply much more evolved and has shorter games than the epic hydra turtles.
If you think about Tsunami's solutions for hydra ZvZ, he says to ensnare mutas attacking your base while you attack his, so that he can't come back to defend it in time... The decision making involved in hydra ZvZ to me would then seem apparently awkward compared to how one would normally view StarCraft. I just wish Tsunami still played SC so we could know what he could have been today
Now, before you start thinking to yourself "Why is he wasting his time posting a Muta/Ling vs Hydra/Lurker guide, when we already know that Muta/Ling > Hydra/Ling." Go tell that to someone like 1st~Tsunami. Hydra/Lurker can be a viable option vs Muta/Ling, but I do not believe that it's better than Muta/Ling. Often enough it isn't the strategy itself, but it's the execution of that strategy that matters most. A person that has experience using a second rate strategy, will do much better than they will if they had used the best strategy having no experience ever using it. They have the timing, the knowledge, and know how to EXECUTE IT.
Although Tsunami seemed to steadfastly believe Hydras were better.
I think right now it's favourable for progamers to use Muta Ling ZvZ because it's all they've ever used their whole StarCraft careers, and the quote above could be reversed to say the same thing. While it could be better, I think that it is perhaps unfair to say for certain one is better than the other, except for obvious facts like that no one can teach you hydra ZvZ, but everyone in progaming can tell you a million tricks in muta ZvZ. One is simply much more evolved and has shorter games than the epic hydra turtles.
If you think about Tsunami's solutions for hydra ZvZ, he says to ensnare mutas attacking your base while you attack his, so that he can't come back to defend it in time... The decision making involved in hydra ZvZ to me would then seem apparently awkward compared to how one would normally view StarCraft. I just wish Tsunami still played SC so we could know what he could have been today
i read tsunami's guide a few times a while back, and i like his ideas. although, his builds are now outdated. edit: if someone were to create a new build for the newer maps and playing styles i think hydras would do perfectly fine.
This isn't even something you can argue over. I don't understand why there's a huge topic on it. If he is good enough to a) do basic scouting and b) do basic counters then hydra won't work. The exception to this is when he's a much worse player in which case pretty much anything works. Hydra is an inferior strategy to mutaling. It will lose games against players of equal skill. Don't go "but I beat someone with hydra" because you probably could have beaten them with pure queens. Don't go "but it works at D" because a D player can barely get themselves dressed, let alone understand what's going on when you don't use the build they expect. Personal anecdotal evidence is less impressive than the consistant evidence we have of professional zergs choosing not to go hydra. Hydra is inferior. You can choose to go hydra and sometimes if you play it very well you'll win. You can also choose to kill one of your starting workers and if you play it well you'll win. That doesn't mean you should.
Against modern players, the only way you can win with hydras over mutas is if you're clearly at a skill level higher than your opponent or your opponent has no idea how to react against it. The common argument against mutalisks on hydras is that spore colonies can stall mutas. This is totally false because you basically have to waste your eco putting up spores asap around the spire timing so you're already wasting drones, initiative advantage (which ZvZ is all about). Ok, so you've prevented the initial muta harrass. now what? Well you can't have too much intel because he can muta your overlords. so you're playing blind versus him effectively. So you have to sit in y our base and build up. During that time he's sitting in his base and building up. You can both expand at roughly the same rate, I'll grant that since hydra supported expension doesnt' fare terribly against mutas as long as you're not expanding retardedly far away but you essentially play the game from zero initiative at all times because the moment you move out to attack, you will see something like 10 sunkens sprout up + possible lurker tech and his clump of mutas /will/ demolish one of your expos before you can defend it. In other words, you have a lot more oppurtunities to slip up more than him. Your only hope is to somehow catch up to him in hive tech when you get defilers or queens, both of which are godsends for hydras but so will he and I REPEAT, once he reaches critical mass of mutas you WILL be losing expos. Add that all up and not to mention certain player's incredible finesse with muta control, going hydras is really just a strat you can only pull if you're desperately behind the spire game.
On August 02 2008 08:49 KissBlade wrote: Against modern players, the only way you can win with hydras over mutas is if you're clearly at a skill level higher than your opponent or your opponent has no idea how to react against it. The common argument against mutalisks on hydras is that spore colonies can stall mutas. This is totally false because you basically have to waste your eco putting up spores asap around the spire timing so you're already wasting drones, initiative advantage (which ZvZ is all about). Ok, so you've prevented the initial muta harrass. now what? Well you can't have too much intel because he can muta your overlords. so you're playing blind versus him effectively. So you have to sit in y our base and build up. During that time he's sitting in his base and building up. You can both expand at roughly the same rate, I'll grant that since hydra supported expension doesnt' fare terribly against mutas as long as you're not expanding retardedly far away but you essentially play the game from zero initiative at all times because the moment you move out to attack, you will see something like 10 sunkens sprout up + possible lurker tech and his clump of mutas /will/ demolish one of your expos before you can defend it. In other words, you have a lot more oppurtunities to slip up more than him. Your only hope is to somehow catch up to him in hive tech when you get defilers or queens, both of which are godsends for hydras but so will he and I REPEAT, once he reaches critical mass of mutas you WILL be losing expos. Add that all up and not to mention certain player's incredible finesse with muta control, going hydras is really just a strat you can only pull if you're desperately behind the spire game.
thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol)
Last season I got to B with only playing ZvT/ZvP on any map and ZvZ on python using a variatioin of the satanik build ... Satanik has used that hydra build since 03 (back when we used to play together daily) and was the master of it. I went 33/4(zvz hydra only) on my way to B using only variations of the greedy hydra build. Maybe day was joking, but my highest rank ever was a combination of vT/vP and only 3-4 hat ling/hydra-muta builds. It is very doable if you can play very flexible defend very well and manage your eco perfectly ... this said
I haven't used this strategy once after the rapings I took at the b-/b level last season ... at that level I was murdered EVERY GAME ....
On August 02 2008 08:49 KissBlade wrote: Against modern players, the only way you can win with hydras over mutas is if you're clearly at a skill level higher than your opponent or your opponent has no idea how to react against it. The common argument against mutalisks on hydras is that spore colonies can stall mutas. This is totally false because you basically have to waste your eco putting up spores asap around the spire timing so you're already wasting drones, initiative advantage (which ZvZ is all about). Ok, so you've prevented the initial muta harrass. now what? Well you can't have too much intel because he can muta your overlords. so you're playing blind versus him effectively. So you have to sit in y our base and build up. During that time he's sitting in his base and building up. You can both expand at roughly the same rate, I'll grant that since hydra supported expension doesnt' fare terribly against mutas as long as you're not expanding retardedly far away but you essentially play the game from zero initiative at all times because the moment you move out to attack, you will see something like 10 sunkens sprout up + possible lurker tech and his clump of mutas /will/ demolish one of your expos before you can defend it. In other words, you have a lot more oppurtunities to slip up more than him. Your only hope is to somehow catch up to him in hive tech when you get defilers or queens, both of which are godsends for hydras but so will he and I REPEAT, once he reaches critical mass of mutas you WILL be losing expos. Add that all up and not to mention certain player's incredible finesse with muta control, going hydras is really just a strat you can only pull if you're desperately behind the spire game.
thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol)
hydra/scourge thats good... with a good mix it can own muta/ling.. hehe gotta try it..
i liked doing hydras on nostalgia, since there was no gas at the expo it wasn't quite as easy for the enemy mutamaker to just take that exp and outmass you.
hydras are only good by surprise, and hydra play is a lot more turtle like because you cant move out or your mineral line will get fucked in the anus HARD.
On August 02 2008 08:49 KissBlade wrote: Against modern players, the only way you can win with hydras over mutas is if you're clearly at a skill level higher than your opponent or your opponent has no idea how to react against it. The common argument against mutalisks on hydras is that spore colonies can stall mutas. This is totally false because you basically have to waste your eco putting up spores asap around the spire timing so you're already wasting drones, initiative advantage (which ZvZ is all about). Ok, so you've prevented the initial muta harrass. now what? Well you can't have too much intel because he can muta your overlords. so you're playing blind versus him effectively. So you have to sit in y our base and build up. During that time he's sitting in his base and building up. You can both expand at roughly the same rate, I'll grant that since hydra supported expension doesnt' fare terribly against mutas as long as you're not expanding retardedly far away but you essentially play the game from zero initiative at all times because the moment you move out to attack, you will see something like 10 sunkens sprout up + possible lurker tech and his clump of mutas /will/ demolish one of your expos before you can defend it. In other words, you have a lot more oppurtunities to slip up more than him. Your only hope is to somehow catch up to him in hive tech when you get defilers or queens, both of which are godsends for hydras but so will he and I REPEAT, once he reaches critical mass of mutas you WILL be losing expos. Add that all up and not to mention certain player's incredible finesse with muta control, going hydras is really just a strat you can only pull if you're desperately behind the spire game.
thats an interesting argument. i would have to disagree with the criticle mass of mutas tho... hydras in criticle mass trump mutas in criticle mass. think about it, mutalisks cost more (100/100 vs 75/25) and 1 hydra beats 1 muta. 10 mutas costs 1000 mins which is 13 and a 1/2 hydras. 20 mutas 2000 mins = 26 and a 1/2 hydra. maybe somebody can correct me if im wrong but dont 40 hydras beat 30 mutas? edit: with all that extra gas, couldn't you also spam scourge? like 2 scourge and 1 hydra is equal in price to a muta. so 10 hydra and 20 scourge = 10 muta. (lol)
One muta beats one hydra straight up. But that's not the point, the point is the muta user has way more advantage than you do. If you ever went on offense against a good muta user, you'll know, zerglings aren't the threat against critical mass hydras, what pwns your mass is always last minute sunkens sprouting up with mutas to defend. Because eventually the mutalisk user WILL catch you on a mistake and force you to try to base trade.
EPT
I think he's correct in everything he says here also.
