EPT[Q] ZvZ hydra VS muta - Page 2
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does. | ||
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GoShox
United States1843 Posts
The replay is on the WCG site, but you have to go through a bunch of stuff to get through it, so I uploaded it to RepDepot: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=5883 | ||
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Andaroo
Canada70 Posts
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Stimpacked
Philippines368 Posts
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iakNab
131 Posts
On July 21 2008 11:08 HeavOnEarth wrote: eh u wanna zvz im EzPzLmnSqz @ iccup and heavonearth @ west Muta microing hydras should be fun <_< PM MEH u got one gay name there buddy hydra completely viable, i pulled ridiculous wins with it. Opponents most likely wont be quite ready for it either. | ||
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Blind
United States2529 Posts
On July 21 2008 12:07 LonelyMargarita wrote: Can you do more calculations, but include the cost of 3-4 lurkers with the hydras? I'm interested to see how the result would look. Either way, looking at just pure numbers can be misleading since different styles will require different economies.Just think of sheer numbers. For 300/100 you can get 4 hydralisks (for a total of 20 damage/shot vs small units and 320 hp) or 1 mutalisk and 8 zerglings (for a total of 49 damage/shot and 400 hp). While they cost the same, the latter is faster, they have more total hit points, they do more total damage, and the mutas fly (more mobile). The only advantage of hydras is that they have range while half the opponent's army doesn't (and maybe that you have fewer units to hotkey LOL). In numbers the ranged attack no longer matters because the lings will swarm over the hydras while the mutas take the first salvo of shots. Expanding the numbers, you'll get an initial small army of 32 hydralisks vs 8 mutas and 64 zerglings. It's easy to see who wins. The ratio of 8:1 lings:muta might look odd, but when someone goes hydras both players will powerdrone, making their min:gas ratio much higher than a normal zvz. On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On July 21 2008 16:18 Blind wrote: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On July 21 2008 12:07 LonelyMargarita wrote: Just think of sheer numbers. For 300/100 you can get 4 hydralisks (for a total of 20 damage/shot vs small units and 320 hp) or 1 mutalisk and 8 zerglings (for a total of 49 damage/shot and 400 hp). While they cost the same, the latter is faster, they have more total hit points, they do more total damage, and the mutas fly (more mobile). The only advantage of hydras is that they have range while half the opponent's army doesn't (and maybe that you have fewer units to hotkey LOL). In numbers the ranged attack no longer matters because the lings will swarm over the hydras while the mutas take the first salvo of shots. Expanding the numbers, you'll get an initial small army of 32 hydralisks vs 8 mutas and 64 zerglings. It's easy to see who wins. The ratio of 8:1 lings:muta might look odd, but when someone goes hydras both players will powerdrone, making their min:gas ratio much higher than a normal zvz. On top of that, the hydra army needs spores and sunkens to protect against muta and hidden ling raids, since his units are so much slower and can't fly. It comes down to hydras being most viable when you have a huge econ advantage vs your opponent, in which case going muta/ling will win even more easily. The only time I can see going hydra as the best option would be if he contains you to 1 gas while he gets two, but he sacrifices econ to do this, so you have a much higher mineral:gas ratio than he does. You need respectable hydra numbers to prevent mutas sniping lurkers; so I imagine you will not afford lurker tech until comparatively late in the game (in terms of ZvZ). And you have to expect your opponent to adapt his muta/ling mix seeing your lurkers - what you have less in hydras to allow for lurks, he will have more in muta. And even lurkers still do not solve the problem of your inferior mobility - even if you have enough hydralurk to be on par with his muta/ling, they cannot be in two places at once :-) I.e., when you move out far enough, you'll have tons of mutas tearing up your nat, being back in time to defend your push. I do not have to point out that this means map control for your opponent and wild expoing :-) | ||
Chill
Calgary25996 Posts
If you are C, Hydras are useless. Your base and stray Hydras will be picked apart by Muta micro. The second you move out you will lose your main. | ||
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GoShox
United States1843 Posts
On July 21 2008 21:30 Chill wrote: If you are D, Hydas are viable. Hydras benefit from being in a huge group, so try to draw the game out and stall for +2 carapace. If you are C, Hydras are useless. Your base and stray Hydras will be picked apart by Muta micro. The second you move out you will lose your main. So just sort of a random question, assuming you saw the Satanik vs. Lowely game, why did it work so well for Satanik? He spent so much money on Spores to defend (even doing this he lost many Drones and Hydras to harass anyways, plus all the Drones used to make buildings) and it took him forever to get enough Hydras. Did Lowely just not harass well enough, or should he have tried to take more of the map rather than just the one expansion he took? I'm not saying that since it worked for Satanik it would work for every player, plus it was only one game, I'm just curious as to how he didn't lose that game. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25996 Posts
On July 21 2008 23:43 GoShox wrote: So just sort of a random question, assuming you saw the Satanik vs. Lowely game, why did it work so well for Satanik? He spent so much money on Spores to defend (even doing this he lost many Drones and Hydras to harass anyways, plus all the Drones used to make buildings) and it took him forever to get enough Hydras. Did Lowely just not harass well enough, or should he have tried to take more of the map rather than just the one expansion he took? I'm not saying that since it worked for Satanik it would work for every player, plus it was only one game, I'm just curious as to how he didn't lose that game. I haven't seen the game, just random highlights from a video. I'd assume Lowely didn't overexpand or lost his Mutas instead of balling up. | ||
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cyronc
218 Posts
awesome ZvZ play!!!! (almost every Zerg Unit used!!!!) EDIT: yeah like Shallow pointed out its XiaoZi in this rep against Satanik not Incontrol (must have mixed up the ToT)Players( at that time sorry), no matter what that rep is possibly the best ZvZ ive seen in a long time. props to tsunami for being one of the most inspiring Zerg theorycrafters and to satanik for being one of the few to have the guts to pull unorthodox strategies out of his bag every now and then!!!! | ||
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Breavman
Sweden598 Posts
Playing this way, there will probably be a timing window where you can attack (not too late since he must not have enough mutas to kill you when you move out). Remember that sunkens are pretty weak vs a hydra/ling force if there is enough room to attack. If he gets a sizeable muta force early you will be ahead in economy and play defense. But the problem is that you are playing blind with no way to scout so you pretty much have to guess the best time to move out and attack. He could be teching hive in which case you want to attack before guardians/defilers are ready. If he just masses mutas you might want to delay the attack but then again he can't be allowed to build a superior economy and it's hard to tell. Against lurkers it will be a hive vs hive game. And no, a good player will usually not lose to a pure hydra timing attack but Satanik and others has shown that similar builds can work. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
i went like 53-1 ZvZ going only hydralisks its the best man hydra >>> muta ftw | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
you just have to have the right build and it plays really weird the first few times you try it | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
guards aren't even concerning there. even then, guards aren't too bad at all | ||
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Durak
Canada3685 Posts
On July 22 2008 06:56 Day[9] wrote: i especially like it on tau cross where its nice and open guards aren't even concerning there. even then, guards aren't too bad at all It would suck if they morphed them over your ridge though. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On July 22 2008 07:10 Durak wrote: It would suck if they morphed them over your ridge though. its ok if they do that because you'll have mutalisks by then anyways | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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