EPTit'd be a lot more competitive if this were fixed
Competitive zeroclutter strategies - Page 4
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paper
13196 Posts
it'd be a lot more competitive if this were fixed | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On June 06 2008 14:42 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains. edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15) do you have a rep of something like that? It sounds kinda interesting and I would like to see it. | ||
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Centric
United States1989 Posts
On June 06 2008 14:50 kNyTTyM wrote: http://www.vilegaming.comdo you have a rep of something like that? It sounds kinda interesting and I would like to see it. The link above is the site for VGT, a site based on WGT for fastest players. Some players from VGT actually made the transition to melee (50Cal.Stalife is one of them, I believe). You can find some reps there. I would say that fastest is almost a different kind of game, where the focus is just on different things. I think IdrA overall is right though - I used to play VGT kind of games with friends and made the jump to melee a couple months ago. Melee is infinitely harder - there's just a degree of diversity that you don't find in fastest. On June 06 2008 12:31 IdrA wrote: not really, when you're playing with good people the no rush period is still hectic because in 3v3 games the map maxes (cant build anything else) in under 10 minutes, so you have to build as quickly and efficiently as possible. and then once you're past that its still very fast paced because you have such a big base to manage(and need to macro pretty much perfectly off 20-30 production facilities) while managing a maxed army, and usually watching for constant recall attemps. obviously its not as fast paced and difficult as low money maps, but playing against good players is still very challenging and theres no real superiority in no rules vs no rush. Maybe I misspoke, but what I mean was that no-rush games are less competitive. I don't doubt that you have to move quickly because of the map-max issue, but you're still removing a lot of the multitasking of the early game since you're removing the rush mechanic. If you're sitting around on your ass slowly building stuff you would lose more badly in a rush game than a no rush game. | ||
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Wangsta
United States776 Posts
On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote: thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between. not really. is chess easier than starcraft because there are fewer moves possible? the playing field is the same for everyone so you are expected to think much farther into the future than when playing starcraft if fastest is easier than melee, then small mistakes just become more damaging, and tbe game is equally hard assuming you have equal competition | ||
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On June 06 2008 14:42 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote: have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains. edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15) zvz is rarely played since protoss is far superior for no rules 1v1s, at least in my experience. that aside, that doesnt refute anything i said. length of game does not equate to complexity or skill requirement, and the fact that the games are usually defined by 2 things in itself kind of demonstrates the lack of diversity i was talking about. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
ZC is the most stupid SC map ever. The fact that you will lose all workers at once and the fact that you can't rebuild your main at the exact same (perfect) spot directly next to the minerals and gas means the map is RIDICULOUS. It also means there are certain imbalances (hi Protoss) which may sometimes be countered by better skill (if you're much better than that P you won't really notice any imbalance) but they still exist and you WILL suffer to it in one game (namely if the P is almost as good or better than you). Once you lose everything it's over for you and your team, this doesn't necessarily happen in normal maps where you still can recover from a storm drop or expansion takeout. But here, everything is gone. Same goes for irradiate/eraser, tank/lurk/bat drop, bat/lurk rush or things like that but P is better suited to these kinds of attacks (speed shuttle), plus he can do mass recall later on. Of course, if you're stupid you'll just continue to play it and think it's a great gosu map because of the mechanical challenge (which you ALSO have when playing regular maps by the way), but anyone who still has enough brain cells knows that this map isn't worth playing seriously. Just maybe for fun once in a while. I've even met people who believe ZC is the most gosu map ever because it offers the fastest gameplay. If you want real competition, play on maps without glaring imbalances or "bugs", and play on maps which allow far more diverse gameplay. ZC is also dumbed down in many aspects, leaving only the most basic one to compete in. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On June 06 2008 15:34 Wangsta wrote: moves are the individual things you can do with your units, i wasnt talking about that. i was talking about the overall gameplay ("because of the diversity of game styles"). that should be equated to the tactics and strategy of chess, not the moves that make up those tactics. not really. is chess easier than starcraft because there are fewer moves possible? the playing field is the same for everyone so you are expected to think much farther into the future than when playing starcraft if fastest is easier than melee, then small mistakes just become more damaging, and tbe game is equally hard assuming you have equal competition difficulty of play is not difficulty of winning. if you play a person who is equally as skilled as you in checkers its just as hard to win as if you play someone who is equally as skilled as you in chess. that doesnt change the fact that chess is by far the more complex, difficult game to play. bw is the same way. if you're playing someone of higher skill it will be hard to win, no matter where you play. but it is easier to be good at money maps than it is to be good at low money maps. | ||
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MrBobby
United Kingdom21 Posts
Zerg can play early game pretty easy if you just make sure you have enough sunks, then speed and mass of lings you can build means you can hold onto your base. make sure your sunk/ling quantities are based on SCOUTING of your enemy, don't just mass 20 sunks around your first hatch coz mass static def = get ignored while they kill your enemies coz they know you won't have enough spare res for troops. Or just get ignored while they mass production and workers, basically they're gonna be ahead whatever happens. Fast tech is pretty hard to play as zerg... although needless to say it pawns when you succeed. Muta/ling is pretty good fun as zerg, you can chew through a lot of enemy troops with the quantities you have, they're fast moving, very important, and mutas obviously can harass and go guardian as well. I'd say take your first 2 gasses after about 5 hatchs. Terran, going supply, CC, 2 barracks in choke can work well. A powerful strat with this build is mass infantry and start adding tanks, terran mass infantry is just so strong because it can be rebuilt so fast if you have many barracks, infantry build time is low, and you can kill tons of zealots/lings while your tanks take on static defence and goons/lurkers... just make sure you're aggresive, oh and take down zerg players first before they can mass up :p The most important things I know about FPM- DON'T rush BC's/Carriers/Guardians.... it sucks. So predictable and counterable :p DON'T mass cannons/sunks... they suck. You'll just be behind. Same as any low game. Try and make absolutely minimal defence to beat the attack. If you have the multitasking ability, later in the game you can use cannons as terrans use mines... slow enemy down, see where they're moving... yes, terran 2 barracks->drop rush while teching firebats and stim is pretty powerful. drop firebats in main, stim, run past any defence and kill. unless they've gone completely overboard on cannons/sunks, you should be able to kill all peons before they kill you. Sure, FPM isn't as good as low money. I'm well aware of it, and much prefer low. But, hell, AoE isn't as good as BW but I don't try and insist all AoE players should stop playing and move to bw.... but yeh. Oh, most fun of all to do on PFM? Nydus assault. (use hydra/lurk. Bring a few overlords. Try and find the place where they've gathered all their lords, you can often hide your nydus beneath it. have lord vision range upgraded first, too) hf | ||
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