|
I know ZC is generally considered a newbie map, but me and a few friends have been playing a lot of inhouse ZCs recently and the games have gotten quite competitive. After searching the forums, I only found threads about public game zeroclutter strategies, so hopefully we can get some higher level discussion in this thread.
My initial belief when we began playing ZC was that protoss is the best race. Protoss gets faster money early on because workers don't need to build or morph, and their units tend to be better suited for 200/200 battles.
However, terran mech is extremely powerful with protoss ground support, and zerg is basically unstoppable with darkswarm + hive tech if you allow them to macro up undisturbed. Basically, every race is playable and zeroclutter can become very competitive with 6 smart players in the game.
Here are my current build orders and general strategies for toss/terran/zerg. If you have any suggestions/comments/criticism please post, thanks.
protoss
no rush build
8 pylon
10 nexus
12-13 nexus
15 nexus
17 gate, 17 assim, 17 assim
upgrade +1 air attack, then +2 when its done
tech to 6 stargates and make 12 carriers
immediately stop carrier production after 12 are done and mass gates and begin ground upgrades
tech to goon/arb/templar army
suicide carriers to kill nexus/cc/hive if vulnerable, if not then just use it to force cannon defense and push middle with goon/temp/carriers instead
no rules build
8 pylon
10 gate, 10 gate
11 pylon
12 pylon, 12 gate
14 assim, 14 assim, 14 forge
core after 3 zeals
begin +1 attack
tech to citadel, get leg speed
move out to attack when dts pop out (for counter attack defense), +1 and leg speed should finish right before u reach their base
continue to add gates and tech to arbiters when time allows
terran
i only use one build for all game types
8 depot
10 cc
13 cc
15 cc
16 rax
18 refinery, 18 refinery, 18 refinery, 18 refinery, 18 refinery
tech to tank/gol army, upgrade early, put 1 sci vessel at every base so u can EMP arbiters that try to recall
zerg
no rush build
9 ovie
9 hatch
10 hatch
11 hatch
11 hatch
13 hatch
from here basically tech to hive and start ground upgrades but other than tech buildings, make ONLY drones and hatcheries until map max. at mapmax you can either build 50 mutalisks or hydralisks and a few defilers to help with mid push
no rules build
5 pool
make 3 drones
when pool finishes make an extractor, make 6 lings, cancel extractor
use 6 lings to force top to build defensively
now either revert to the no rush build, or stop after 3 hatch to make an extractor and mass speedling if you team is running a rush strategy. if you went for speedling route, slowly move up to hydra/lurk, then hydra/defiler when 3/3 finishes
|
i am guessing you are talking about 128x128 map size with close minerals. for protoss its better to take the pylon when u have 100 min instead of pylon at 8 (its more like 6.5). depending on how the opponents, its good for protoss to go for mass reaver timing drop to hit their econ and/or cc/hatch/nex. timing dt rush can also work on terran players with large ground force distraction.
but really with protoss, unless ur opponent macros u really gotta macro up while making at least zealots from a few gates to dfend any sort of hindering rush or harassment.
for zerg: its good to go fast pool and expand or alternatively throw down 1hatch then pool then another hatch next to the minerals on the left or right to get a good macro up. if the protoss can provide the protection early on and allow the zerg to macro up. zerg is strongest on that map with good recovery of forces. 2-3 groups muta timing attack is also good.
I havent play zero clutter for ages so dont have a recollection of the build order.
should be something like:
lord when u have 100 straight away whilst being able to pump drones.
hatch when u have 300 straight whilst pumping drones as well.
pool whilst pumping drones
hatch again ditto
keep drone up with ling scouts
depending on ur allies and opponent (you can judge how many drones u can make b4 gettin an army oflings - depending if they want to rush or not). 2group muta timing attack can catch heavy macroers off guard
you generally dont want to cheese too badly unless ur allies know how to recoup the disadv lost or defend well while macroing.
thats all i can think of currently
|
I don't know if ZC is played like fastest at all, but if it is, Protoss most definitely is the strongest race due to its ability to take out workers very quickly (reaver/storm drops) and the fact that workers can continue mining after they've started building(s). I used to play a lot of fastest. It's almost a different brand of SC, focusing on a different set of skills. Quite a few fastest players have been able to make the jump successfully into melee (low money maps), so I think at least some of those skills are applicable to other styles.
|
i have to disagree with the pylon thing. if you build a pylon on 6-7 supply, you are losing 1-2 seconds of mining time which is much more significant than on regular maps because of the amplified sense of time. you want to maximize mining time as much as possible on fastest style maps because every second that a worker is not mining is worth so much.
in fact because of of this, ive been testing out new zerg builds that delay the addition of hatcheries after the 3rd hatch in order to ensure that all drones go toward mining. i havent found a perfect combination yet but it does appear to be better
|
i really doubt 1-2 seconds really matters when you're dealing with potentially infinite money o__O
|
play with op senmon on east. i dont know if theyre the best anymore but they were very good, as far as that kind of map goes.
and your builds are horrible, especially for no rush.
|
|
|
On June 03 2008 20:09 IdrA wrote:
play with op senmon on east. i dont know if theyre the best anymore but they were very good, as far as that kind of map goes.
and your builds are horrible, especially for no rush.
thanks for the info, ill definitely check that out
most of my builds are improvised because i cant find serious ZC replays anywhere, so if you know any builds please post them, i would appreciate it very much
|
well on brat_ok's replay pack, he has a few games he played on some fastest maps... he goes mass science vessel and dmatrix's allies / erasers enemy works and emps/irradiates incoming templar and shit. sounds like it'd be useless but it's actually quite rape in practice.
that's all i know about fastest really
|
I like fast reavers - great to piss off the kids who kick anyone with a +ve win ratio out of their games. It goes something like this:
pylon (when u have 100, at 6 or 7)
gate
2x gas
1 zeal + core (at the same time)
pylon
forge if u think u might be rushed, or if u have 2 noob allies
robotics as soon as core finishes
cannon right next to minerals, so u can defend lings with probes/1 zeal
2nd robotics
start shuttle as soon as 1st robotics is done, put down support bay directly after
some pylons...
as soon as support bay is done, start 2 reavers + shuttle speed
then go on to have fun with the opponents eco ... or play speed shuttle vs mass lots ;-)
whilst killing their eco (2 or 3 opponents if u are fast), before returning to take down the 1st nex/cc, get 1 more reaver at home for defense, and start. also as soon as your shuttle is on the way, put down a citadel and start going dt. Most of the time, once the many zeal counter arrives, you have a reaver and 6 dt so no worries. Go on with dt/reaver/shuttle pushes, templar drops on eco, etc Also if you allies aren't totally useless, they'll be having a field day by now...
|
one t build only? for 0c i like to rush firebat/stim...all you need is 2 sec alone with their drones and it's gg
|
Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC.
You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier.
On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it.
So can everyone else.
|
I don't have idealized ZC builds. Sorry, but I just don't care enough about ZC to plan out my builds carefully.
However, I have played ZC a few times and some obvious things stand out about the map. The first is the lack of any real terrain, and the wide chokes. Essentially, you have the ability to shove armies down the throats of your opponents and don't have to worry about things like cliff drops. The second is that depending on the version, there's usually just 1 mineral patch that all the workers mine off of. Sometimes you'll have like 8 patches that can each be mined off of by as many probes as you can make, but I won't go into that just yet.
This is why Protoss is truly the best race for ZC: you have two methods that work extremely well for obliterating ALL of someone's workers; storm drop and reaver drop. This is also why versions of ZC that have 8 patches are better than versions with 1 since a Protoss player can decimate your income instantaneously otherwise. Since Protoss are the only race with defensive structures that cover both vs air and ground, you also have the best chance to defend yourself against drops. Meanwhile, Protoss ground armies work extremely well on open, level terrain.
|
Builds aren't really that applicable on that map, atleast don't time them with probes. I know for a fact your pylon and gates can come much earlier on ZC/Faster than 8/10 !_!
Just go with the flow of your economy.
|
United States24680 Posts
Impression of Chill:
Chill will say:
No. <close>
lol but seriously, zc has more depth to it than I realized until I played it ._.
|
On June 04 2008 00:38 micronesia wrote:
lol but seriously, zc has more depth to it than I realized until I played it ._.
lol, to me it always ranked as UMS alternative ... but come to think of it, has anyone considered the strategical impact of the maximum number of units in a given SC game? ie how do you deal best with the situation when SC tells you 'cannot create unit, maximum number of units/buildings exceeded' 
|
On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. Show nested quote +On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else.
carriers are bad, BUT 12 of them can kill a nexus really fast and its extremely difficult to kill 12 carriers before they can move in and kill a nexus. thats pretty much why you get them, because it forces the other team to build so much defense that it makes up for the temporary lack of goons (in a no rush setting).
|
me and my friends join ZC NR 20 games and 5 pool the other 3 people.
with that said, play zerg and spam multilisks and snipe nexus/hatch/command center, basically cripples them because you can't rebuild them on the same optimal mining spot :D
|
i generally think PPT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too.
Note: ZZZ would be very weak in a norules game. Due to it being weak against rushes. Rush weakness also contributres to a weak late game economy as well. Although in theory i guess speedling abuse could work wonders if done right 
|
those race and unit combos are ment for both no rush and no rules games. It just is opening varient.
|
A few years ago I played ZC for a few months and I'd recommend not playing no rush games. I find them plain stupid because it's always the same situation when the build is done.
You should also go for heavy harass build if your allies don't.
|
Haha whenever I play ZC I always have the tiniest base because I'm the most bloodthirsty one, I can't even wait a minute to build Hatcheries because I'm too busy killing them
I've just been using Ultralisks + Cracklings + Defilers to much success, most players don't even know what Swarm does =_=
|
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On June 04 2008 02:09 ForAdun wrote:
A few years ago I played ZC for a few months and I'd recommend not playing no rush games. I find them plain stupid because it's always the same situation when the build is done.
You should also go for heavy harass build if your allies don't.
Especially don't play those no rush until map max games. Unless you plan on BS-ing everyone, in which case it is kind of fun. *Goes to BS people*
|
On June 04 2008 01:27 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
i generally think PTT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too.
You mean PPT?
|
On June 03 2008 19:26 Centric wrote:
I don't know if ZC is played like fastest at all, but if it is, Protoss most definitely is the strongest race due to its ability to take out workers very quickly (reaver/storm drops) and the fact that workers can continue mining after they've started building(s). I used to play a lot of fastest. It's almost a different brand of SC, focusing on a different set of skills. Quite a few fastest players have been able to make the jump successfully into melee (low money maps), so I think at least some of those skills are applicable to other styles.
I HAVE SUCCESFULLY JUMPED!
|
United States3824 Posts
Wow I thought you guys were going to tear him apart for saying he played ZC. lol
At any rate one thing that i noticed about Terran is that there going to play a LOT of 3/3 tanks up the mid right? (unless they go BC's sooo long to build) So you should rock the Zealot bomb to break the middle and have a zerg ruch up through that as those tanks aren't really going to be spaced. Oh and don't take so long that you let them mass cannons. Thats a pain
|
Its just a race for whoever can mass the most gates first. It can become really fun when everyone is really good and the micro becomes intense lol. But nothing like real maps p-:
|
It's much better to make the pylon at 6.5 or whatever than to wait til later, that's about all I can contribute. I've only played 5-6 games of FPM/ZC in my life but I have some friends who play it a ton very competitively and they say to do that.
|
Really nooby question, but when there are build orders, say like
8 pylon
10 gate
does it mean to build a pylon when I have 8 probes ALREADY produced? Or does it mean to build a pylon when I am building my 8th probe? I really get messed up if I build it with my 8th probe because my probe production stops for like 10-15 seconds while that pylon is finishing.
Thanks
|
CA10828 Posts
On June 04 2008 08:15 ProbesAreCute wrote:
Really nooby question, but when there are build orders, say like
8 pylon
10 gate
does it mean to build a pylon when I have 8 probes ALREADY produced? Or does it mean to build a pylon when I am building my 8th probe? I really get messed up if I build it with my 8th probe because my probe production stops for like 10-15 seconds while that pylon is finishing.
Thanks
generally it's referring to the number at the top right unless they specifically mention otherwise.
|
|
|
On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. Show nested quote +On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else.
This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time.
i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe
|
CA10828 Posts
On June 04 2008 09:40 intoyourrainbOW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else. This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time. i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe
unless i'm mistaken, upgrading hatches to hives don't give you faster larva spawning rates
|
On June 04 2008 09:46 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 09:40 intoyourrainbOW wrote:On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else. This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time. i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe unless i'm mistaken, upgrading hatches to hives don't give you faster larva spawning rates
haha, ur right. i just did a side by side comparison, and there's no difference. i was always told hives spawn larvae faster, and it felt like it during games, but apparently not... 
|
On June 04 2008 09:40 intoyourrainbOW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else. This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time. i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe
And none of that will matter when I psi storm all your drones.
BTW, hives don't make larva faster. You get an extra larva after lair and after hive, but but it's just 1 extra. It's really not worth investing in making them all hives.
|
Here's my fast expand B.O for ZC Norules
pylon 8
nexus 10 (or 11 if you messed up your mining)
1st gate 12
2nd gate 12
pylon 13
gate 13 with same probe as previous pylon
both gases at 14 (2 probes in each gases)
from there you can either get double forge for very quick upgrades or use that gas to get ranged goons. I'm quite good at ZC, let's play sometime if anyone is interested  .
|
36 mutas go for hatch/nex/cc LOL GG
|
On June 04 2008 10:27 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 09:40 intoyourrainbOW wrote:On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else. This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time. i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe And none of that will matter when I psi storm all your drones. BTW, hives don't make larva faster. You get an extra larva after lair and after hive, but but it's just 1 extra. It's really not worth investing in making them all hives.
storm all my drones? pshhh.. i could select all my larva instantaneously and rebuild drones. that is why storm drops aren't as effective against zerg on fastest.. even without selection hack, zerg production is still faster than toss or terran.
|
zero clutter? no rush? ugg my head hurts. float cc ftw.
|
On June 04 2008 11:05 intoyourrainbOW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 10:27 Mortality wrote:On June 04 2008 09:40 intoyourrainbOW wrote:On June 03 2008 22:49 Wonders wrote:Carriers are horrible on zero clutter maps because their build time is too long. It matters so much on ZC. You only lose the 1 second mining time (if that, just build the pylon right next to your probe) until when your later pylon would finish, because you never stop probe production anyway. You can make use of that faster pylon by building the gateway earlier. On June 03 2008 20:17 Mada_Jiang wrote:
ZC! no one can beat me in that! simply go zerg and then macrosaurus ^^ you can generate troops faster than they can kill it. So can everyone else. This is not true. For the same number of gates/barracks/facts, etc. hatcheries can produce units 3x faster. 3 larvae to a hatchery remember? and if u upgrade all of them to hives, even more larvae within a given amount of time. i'll admit to playing ZC and fastest with automine and selection hack, and it's fahking ridiculous. hehe And none of that will matter when I psi storm all your drones. BTW, hives don't make larva faster. You get an extra larva after lair and after hive, but but it's just 1 extra. It's really not worth investing in making them all hives. storm all my drones? pshhh.. i could select all my larva instantaneously and rebuild drones. that is why storm drops aren't as effective against zerg on fastest.. even without selection hack, zerg production is still faster than toss or terran.
Firstly in normal game do you usually see a 3 hatch zerg matching production of a 9 gate toss or a 9 rax terran? More like half that, and the protoss/terran will just build more buildings anyway.
I'm pretty sure zerg would lose a maxing race, I know for sure that it's quite far behind on regular maps (protoss maxes in 8:30 about and zerg in 11:00), and probably on zero clutter too. Losing a drone for every building is a bigger deal than it seems. It sounds like it seems that zerg builds faster to you because you lose an army before you go back to rebuild it, and the 3 larvae to a hatch is more forgiving on non-constant production.
Oh and an idea I've always had on zc maps is: why not just build 5000 overlords and keep the map maxed? Not like you don't have the money.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2008 01:27 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
i generally think PTT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too.
PTT? should be PPT (1st paragraph, i bolded the mistake
|
I'm really surprised TL is so accepting of ZC ^^
I used to play ZC games but I eventually got bored of it. You really need everyone to know what they're doing for it to be fun. And when that happens, it's great. Unfortunately, they doesn't seem to happen very often. Occasionally, someone leaves after finding out they're on a crappy team or something. Other times, one team has a complete noob, essentially making it a 2v3. What I basically did was just go with the flow of my resources. As usual, constantly make workers and build as many production facilities as the space allows. Hogging unit count with reavers or larvae also works great ^^
|
On June 04 2008 13:27 Wonders wrote:
Oh and an idea I've always had on zc maps is: why not just build 5000 overlords and keep the map maxed? Not like you don't have the money.
zerg larvae are limited by the map max
|
zerg is behind for a small period and then it doesn't matter
|
On June 04 2008 14:01 B1nary wrote:
I'm really surprised TL is so accepting of ZC ^^
I was informed in IRC a few nights ago that TL has a secret society of money map players within our ranks.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
|
|
HEY I PLAY MONEY!!!
i plan to start iccup'ing in about a week though
|
|
|
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together.
|
On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together.
then you are being close minded
would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably.
the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all)
|
On June 04 2008 08:28 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 08:15 ProbesAreCute wrote:
Really nooby question, but when there are build orders, say like
8 pylon
10 gate
does it mean to build a pylon when I have 8 probes ALREADY produced? Or does it mean to build a pylon when I am building my 8th probe? I really get messed up if I build it with my 8th probe because my probe production stops for like 10-15 seconds while that pylon is finishing.
Thanks generally it's referring to the number at the top right unless they specifically mention otherwise.
Oh ok thanks.
|
On June 05 2008 06:33 Wangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together. then you are being close minded would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably. the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all)
I've already stated before that I used to play competitive fastest, so I have nothing against the map.
The problem with a no-rush game is that remove a lot of the do stuff quickly element that makes up a large part of SC. The fact that a team of progamers would beat me and a couple friends is irrelevant.
The very fact that the majority of games on Battle.net are fastest/ZC maps is a testament to how much easier it is to play that style than melee.
|
The build I use for Money maps is this: (protoss)
pylon, scout, build pylons and harass an enemy (so they think you are rushing or some shit).
Meanwhile build your additional nexuses to wall your choke. Mass probes out of all 3 nexus, rally to mins. Proceed to put a few canons behind (as many as necessary.), then tech fast to stargate whilst placing canons around your minerals and edges to protect from drops. Get storm/dt as well to protect both front and min-drops. (cannons auto target units that drop so their shuttle may still let out some HTs who can get a storm or 2 off).
The scouts can help here too, blasting shuttles out of the sky and cleaning up shit that falls out. Use the scout to scout as well (duh).
Once you have about 6 or so scouts you can harass a bit or just leave them all around for de.
You will eventually want a mass of stargates (8-15 or so with full geyser population) and like 6-8 gateways. But most of your base will be just canons everywhere. (don't forget to research scout speed if they are dropping)
After you start the scout/ht building you will continue up to Arbiter tech and start massing arbiters with full research. Proceed to get 3-3-3 upgrades as well. I usually end up making a bunch of sairs with research as well to further protect main choke wall, and templar/reaver upgrades as well.
basically once you get 12 or so arbiters you can stasis indefinitely and you can sneak an arby with hallucination out into their base and either recall all your arbiters (except one, need a ride home) and/or a few HT/archon to rape their minerals or just blast their town hall/workers with phase disrupters (if you've got 3-3-3) while most of their army is frozen. After this get every other upgrades/researches you can.
You can even just waste time and stasis their workers to fuck them up. while you build up more shit at home. Your base should be impenetrable to anything Toss except arbiters. (carriers are especially easy to rape). If they use arbiters too, spread out and use scouts, storms 1 by 1. Darkon's Feedback can also work wonders.
Nuking ghosts can be stasised, tanks/goliaths can be stasised/webed and then stormed or picked apart. Watch out for EMP.
Hydra/ling/ultra swarm can be stasised/webbed/stormed. (although you may want to have some reavers as well).
Scourges are nothing if you have sair support, other zerg air can be stasised.
You can try and recall probes around and build secret outposts of canons or gateways. and build a secret army somewhere.
The game is basically a stale mate if you can't kill them at this point. So what you can do is just mass defend (micro) while they mass attack (macro) until they get tired, type "you're gay" and leave.
This really pisses off money map newbs who just want to mass units and macro because you are changing the game into the opposite style and they lack the skills and micro/strategy to compete with you.
PS- Just like muta stacking, you can trap a unit(probe) in your base somewhere and hotkey him in your air unit group and do hit and run shit. You can trap him with other units on hold position or buildings.
|
You guys seem to use weird strategies.
First of all, the "no rush" decision is retarded, because in most games someone will rush anyway and I cant believe that you actually manage to put 3 nexuses first and survive. I would do nexus blocks, but only AFTER I secured my base with some cannons.
There are like 4 protoss builds:
a) pylon - cannons - gateways (with any follow up, usually zeal+goon, often carriers)
Cannons + zealots are incredibly good and can even stop 2-3 enemy protoss if they try to take you out quickly with mass zealots
b) 4gate no pylon - basically a rush build, you sacrifice defense
c) "fast expand", something like pylon, non-stop probes, nexus
d) "tech", (probably combined with a)) where you try to get a reaver ASAP
Nexus blocks are nice in theorem, but they dont work that well vs someone who is actually attacking from the beginning. If they are smart, they will block you with a pylon (can happen).
Carriers are not that good because:
- you cant build them quickly
- they can be statised and if someone is any good, he can keep them in statis forever, thus making you lose your PSI slots (3 arbiters are usually enough to outmacro them)
Id suggest using build a). Then you would constantly add gateways and mass dragoons. In the meantime try to build as many cannons around your nexus as possible. Then add gateways + cannons. With my crappy 120 apm, I was able to get around 25-30++ gateways (depending on the layout of the map) and 1-2 lines of cannons around my base and while attacking the opponent with mass goons.
vs zerg, I would sacrifice some gateways and build like 8-12 stargates to pump corsairs (you can try to do it at some other spot - block it with 3 nexuses), because at some time zerg would attack you with mass mutalisks/guardians in order to take out the nexus. If he didnt, I would just hunt his overlords and send the corsairs to die over his hydras
The problem with that map is the fact that when the players are of equal skill, it's some sort of a clickfest micro/macro battle or a total stalemate, because none of the players cant enter the other ones base.
|
On June 04 2008 02:23 GunsofthePatriots wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 01:27 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
i generally think PTT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too. You mean PPT?
yep whoops.
|
Would anyone actually be interested in meeting in some random east (money game heaven) channel and organize some 3v3 ZC goodness?
I'm in for that .
|
On June 05 2008 07:47 Centric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 06:33 Wangsta wrote:On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together. then you are being close minded would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably. the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all) I've already stated before that I used to play competitive fastest, so I have nothing against the map. The problem with a no-rush game is that remove a lot of the do stuff quickly element that makes up a large part of SC. The fact that a team of progamers would beat me and a couple friends is irrelevant.
not really, when you're playing with good people the no rush period is still hectic because in 3v3 games the map maxes (cant build anything else) in under 10 minutes, so you have to build as quickly and efficiently as possible.
and then once you're past that its still very fast paced because you have such a big base to manage(and need to macro pretty much perfectly off 20-30 production facilities) while managing a maxed army, and usually watching for constant recall attemps.
obviously its not as fast paced and difficult as low money maps, but playing against good players is still very challenging and theres no real superiority in no rules vs no rush.
|
correct ^
i really hate the notion that certain maps are "newb." its true that most of the people who play money maps are newb, but the map itself is as competitive as the players make it
|
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between.
|
On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between.
have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains.
edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15)
|
ZC is lame because your macro gets crushed by the limiting number of sprites
it'd be a lot more competitive if this were fixed
|
On June 06 2008 14:42 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between. have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains. edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15)
do you have a rep of something like that? It sounds kinda interesting and I would like to see it.
|
On June 06 2008 14:50 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:42 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between. have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains. edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15) do you have a rep of something like that? It sounds kinda interesting and I would like to see it. http://www.vilegaming.com
The link above is the site for VGT, a site based on WGT for fastest players. Some players from VGT actually made the transition to melee (50Cal.Stalife is one of them, I believe). You can find some reps there.
I would say that fastest is almost a different kind of game, where the focus is just on different things. I think IdrA overall is right though - I used to play VGT kind of games with friends and made the jump to melee a couple months ago. Melee is infinitely harder - there's just a degree of diversity that you don't find in fastest.
On June 06 2008 12:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 07:47 Centric wrote:On June 05 2008 06:33 Wangsta wrote:On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together. then you are being close minded would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably. the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all) I've already stated before that I used to play competitive fastest, so I have nothing against the map. The problem with a no-rush game is that remove a lot of the do stuff quickly element that makes up a large part of SC. The fact that a team of progamers would beat me and a couple friends is irrelevant. not really, when you're playing with good people the no rush period is still hectic because in 3v3 games the map maxes (cant build anything else) in under 10 minutes, so you have to build as quickly and efficiently as possible. and then once you're past that its still very fast paced because you have such a big base to manage(and need to macro pretty much perfectly off 20-30 production facilities) while managing a maxed army, and usually watching for constant recall attemps. obviously its not as fast paced and difficult as low money maps, but playing against good players is still very challenging and theres no real superiority in no rules vs no rush.
Maybe I misspoke, but what I mean was that no-rush games are less competitive. I don't doubt that you have to move quickly because of the map-max issue, but you're still removing a lot of the multitasking of the early game since you're removing the rush mechanic. If you're sitting around on your ass slowly building stuff you would lose more badly in a rush game than a no rush game.
|
On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between.
not really. is chess easier than starcraft because there are fewer moves possible? the playing field is the same for everyone so you are expected to think much farther into the future than when playing starcraft
if fastest is easier than melee, then small mistakes just become more damaging, and tbe game is equally hard assuming you have equal competition
|
|
|
On June 06 2008 14:42 X.xDeMoNiCx.X wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between. have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains. edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15)
zvz is rarely played since protoss is far superior for no rules 1v1s, at least in my experience.
that aside, that doesnt refute anything i said. length of game does not equate to complexity or skill requirement, and the fact that the games are usually defined by 2 things in itself kind of demonstrates the lack of diversity i was talking about.
|
ZC allows competing in macro and mechanical skill, so there'll always be someone "better" than you, so the map can be "competitive". That, however, doesn't mean it's ANY good. I'm sure there are much better/faster players in Solitaire or Minesweeper than you, but would you say these are great games to compete in?
ZC is the most stupid SC map ever.
The fact that you will lose all workers at once and the fact that you can't rebuild your main at the exact same (perfect) spot directly next to the minerals and gas means the map is RIDICULOUS. It also means there are certain imbalances (hi Protoss) which may sometimes be countered by better skill (if you're much better than that P you won't really notice any imbalance) but they still exist and you WILL suffer to it in one game (namely if the P is almost as good or better than you). Once you lose everything it's over for you and your team, this doesn't necessarily happen in normal maps where you still can recover from a storm drop or expansion takeout. But here, everything is gone.
Same goes for irradiate/eraser, tank/lurk/bat drop, bat/lurk rush or things like that but P is better suited to these kinds of attacks (speed shuttle), plus he can do mass recall later on.
Of course, if you're stupid you'll just continue to play it and think it's a great gosu map because of the mechanical challenge (which you ALSO have when playing regular maps by the way), but anyone who still has enough brain cells knows that this map isn't worth playing seriously. Just maybe for fun once in a while.
I've even met people who believe ZC is the most gosu map ever because it offers the fastest gameplay.
If you want real competition, play on maps without glaring imbalances or "bugs", and play on maps which allow far more diverse gameplay.
ZC is also dumbed down in many aspects, leaving only the most basic one to compete in.
|
On June 06 2008 15:34 Wangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between. not really. is chess easier than starcraft because there are fewer moves possible? the playing field is the same for everyone so you are expected to think much farther into the future than when playing starcraft moves are the individual things you can do with your units, i wasnt talking about that. i was talking about the overall gameplay ("because of the diversity of game styles"). that should be equated to the tactics and strategy of chess, not the moves that make up those tactics.
if fastest is easier than melee, then small mistakes just become more damaging, and tbe game is equally hard assuming you have equal competition
difficulty of play is not difficulty of winning. if you play a person who is equally as skilled as you in checkers its just as hard to win as if you play someone who is equally as skilled as you in chess. that doesnt change the fact that chess is by far the more complex, difficult game to play.
bw is the same way. if you're playing someone of higher skill it will be hard to win, no matter where you play. but it is easier to be good at money maps than it is to be good at low money maps.
|
erm don't play NR FPM :/ it's... much worse than just FPM. going too far........
Zerg can play early game pretty easy if you just make sure you have enough sunks, then speed and mass of lings you can build means you can hold onto your base. make sure your sunk/ling quantities are based on SCOUTING of your enemy, don't just mass 20 sunks around your first hatch coz mass static def = get ignored while they kill your enemies coz they know you won't have enough spare res for troops. Or just get ignored while they mass production and workers, basically they're gonna be ahead whatever happens.
Fast tech is pretty hard to play as zerg... although needless to say it pawns when you succeed.
Muta/ling is pretty good fun as zerg, you can chew through a lot of enemy troops with the quantities you have, they're fast moving, very important, and mutas obviously can harass and go guardian as well.
I'd say take your first 2 gasses after about 5 hatchs.
Terran, going supply, CC, 2 barracks in choke can work well.
A powerful strat with this build is mass infantry and start adding tanks, terran mass infantry is just so strong because it can be rebuilt so fast if you have many barracks, infantry build time is low, and you can kill tons of zealots/lings while your tanks take on static defence and goons/lurkers... just make sure you're aggresive, oh and take down zerg players first before they can mass up :p
The most important things I know about FPM-
DON'T rush BC's/Carriers/Guardians.... it sucks. So predictable and counterable :p
DON'T mass cannons/sunks... they suck. You'll just be behind. Same as any low game. Try and make absolutely minimal defence to beat the attack.
If you have the multitasking ability, later in the game you can use cannons as terrans use mines... slow enemy down, see where they're moving...
yes, terran 2 barracks->drop rush while teching firebats and stim is pretty powerful. drop firebats in main, stim, run past any defence and kill. unless they've gone completely overboard on cannons/sunks, you should be able to kill all peons before they kill you.
Sure, FPM isn't as good as low money. I'm well aware of it, and much prefer low. But, hell, AoE isn't as good as BW but I don't try and insist all AoE players should stop playing and move to bw.... but yeh.
Oh, most fun of all to do on PFM? Nydus assault. (use hydra/lurk. Bring a few overlords. Try and find the place where they've gathered all their lords, you can often hide your nydus beneath it. have lord vision range upgraded first, too)
hf
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
