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+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2008 01:27 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
i generally think PTT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too.
PTT? should be PPT (1st paragraph, i bolded the mistake
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I'm really surprised TL is so accepting of ZC ^^
I used to play ZC games but I eventually got bored of it. You really need everyone to know what they're doing for it to be fun. And when that happens, it's great. Unfortunately, they doesn't seem to happen very often. Occasionally, someone leaves after finding out they're on a crappy team or something. Other times, one team has a complete noob, essentially making it a 2v3. What I basically did was just go with the flow of my resources. As usual, constantly make workers and build as many production facilities as the space allows. Hogging unit count with reavers or larvae also works great ^^
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On June 04 2008 13:27 Wonders wrote:
Oh and an idea I've always had on zc maps is: why not just build 5000 overlords and keep the map maxed? Not like you don't have the money.
zerg larvae are limited by the map max
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zerg is behind for a small period and then it doesn't matter
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On June 04 2008 14:01 B1nary wrote:
I'm really surprised TL is so accepting of ZC ^^
I was informed in IRC a few nights ago that TL has a secret society of money map players within our ranks.
+ Show Spoiler +
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HEY I PLAY MONEY!!! 
i plan to start iccup'ing in about a week though 
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After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together.
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On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together.
then you are being close minded
would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably.
the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all)
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On June 04 2008 08:28 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 08:15 ProbesAreCute wrote:
Really nooby question, but when there are build orders, say like
8 pylon
10 gate
does it mean to build a pylon when I have 8 probes ALREADY produced? Or does it mean to build a pylon when I am building my 8th probe? I really get messed up if I build it with my 8th probe because my probe production stops for like 10-15 seconds while that pylon is finishing.
Thanks generally it's referring to the number at the top right unless they specifically mention otherwise.
Oh ok thanks.
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On June 05 2008 06:33 Wangsta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together. then you are being close minded would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably. the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all)
I've already stated before that I used to play competitive fastest, so I have nothing against the map.
The problem with a no-rush game is that remove a lot of the do stuff quickly element that makes up a large part of SC. The fact that a team of progamers would beat me and a couple friends is irrelevant.
The very fact that the majority of games on Battle.net are fastest/ZC maps is a testament to how much easier it is to play that style than melee.
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The build I use for Money maps is this: (protoss)
pylon, scout, build pylons and harass an enemy (so they think you are rushing or some shit).
Meanwhile build your additional nexuses to wall your choke. Mass probes out of all 3 nexus, rally to mins. Proceed to put a few canons behind (as many as necessary.), then tech fast to stargate whilst placing canons around your minerals and edges to protect from drops. Get storm/dt as well to protect both front and min-drops. (cannons auto target units that drop so their shuttle may still let out some HTs who can get a storm or 2 off).
The scouts can help here too, blasting shuttles out of the sky and cleaning up shit that falls out. Use the scout to scout as well (duh).
Once you have about 6 or so scouts you can harass a bit or just leave them all around for de.
You will eventually want a mass of stargates (8-15 or so with full geyser population) and like 6-8 gateways. But most of your base will be just canons everywhere. (don't forget to research scout speed if they are dropping)
After you start the scout/ht building you will continue up to Arbiter tech and start massing arbiters with full research. Proceed to get 3-3-3 upgrades as well. I usually end up making a bunch of sairs with research as well to further protect main choke wall, and templar/reaver upgrades as well.
basically once you get 12 or so arbiters you can stasis indefinitely and you can sneak an arby with hallucination out into their base and either recall all your arbiters (except one, need a ride home) and/or a few HT/archon to rape their minerals or just blast their town hall/workers with phase disrupters (if you've got 3-3-3) while most of their army is frozen. After this get every other upgrades/researches you can.
You can even just waste time and stasis their workers to fuck them up. while you build up more shit at home. Your base should be impenetrable to anything Toss except arbiters. (carriers are especially easy to rape). If they use arbiters too, spread out and use scouts, storms 1 by 1. Darkon's Feedback can also work wonders.
Nuking ghosts can be stasised, tanks/goliaths can be stasised/webed and then stormed or picked apart. Watch out for EMP.
Hydra/ling/ultra swarm can be stasised/webbed/stormed. (although you may want to have some reavers as well).
Scourges are nothing if you have sair support, other zerg air can be stasised.
You can try and recall probes around and build secret outposts of canons or gateways. and build a secret army somewhere.
The game is basically a stale mate if you can't kill them at this point. So what you can do is just mass defend (micro) while they mass attack (macro) until they get tired, type "you're gay" and leave.
This really pisses off money map newbs who just want to mass units and macro because you are changing the game into the opposite style and they lack the skills and micro/strategy to compete with you.
PS- Just like muta stacking, you can trap a unit(probe) in your base somewhere and hotkey him in your air unit group and do hit and run shit. You can trap him with other units on hold position or buildings.
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You guys seem to use weird strategies.
First of all, the "no rush" decision is retarded, because in most games someone will rush anyway and I cant believe that you actually manage to put 3 nexuses first and survive. I would do nexus blocks, but only AFTER I secured my base with some cannons.
There are like 4 protoss builds:
a) pylon - cannons - gateways (with any follow up, usually zeal+goon, often carriers)
Cannons + zealots are incredibly good and can even stop 2-3 enemy protoss if they try to take you out quickly with mass zealots
b) 4gate no pylon - basically a rush build, you sacrifice defense
c) "fast expand", something like pylon, non-stop probes, nexus
d) "tech", (probably combined with a)) where you try to get a reaver ASAP
Nexus blocks are nice in theorem, but they dont work that well vs someone who is actually attacking from the beginning. If they are smart, they will block you with a pylon (can happen).
Carriers are not that good because:
- you cant build them quickly
- they can be statised and if someone is any good, he can keep them in statis forever, thus making you lose your PSI slots (3 arbiters are usually enough to outmacro them)
Id suggest using build a). Then you would constantly add gateways and mass dragoons. In the meantime try to build as many cannons around your nexus as possible. Then add gateways + cannons. With my crappy 120 apm, I was able to get around 25-30++ gateways (depending on the layout of the map) and 1-2 lines of cannons around my base and while attacking the opponent with mass goons.
vs zerg, I would sacrifice some gateways and build like 8-12 stargates to pump corsairs (you can try to do it at some other spot - block it with 3 nexuses), because at some time zerg would attack you with mass mutalisks/guardians in order to take out the nexus. If he didnt, I would just hunt his overlords and send the corsairs to die over his hydras
The problem with that map is the fact that when the players are of equal skill, it's some sort of a clickfest micro/macro battle or a total stalemate, because none of the players cant enter the other ones base.
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On June 04 2008 02:23 GunsofthePatriots wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2008 01:27 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
i generally think PTT is the best 3on3 128/128 combo. The terran neeeds to just push 3-3 tanks asap and mass them and one protoss goes goon/zeal/temp and the other can do the same or air combo or sair/carrier/arb.
the weakness of a protoss army is to lings an da shit ton of units. The tanks counter that perfectly and are great for slow pushing up the middle. However if theres another terran doing the same thing with mass tanks breaking the middle will be difficult without air, which is the only circumstance which i think justifies using carriers and an air combo.
Otherwise the ground support is too strong, the only thing that can actually hurt it is a shit ton of guardians. Which if one guy just invests in sairs or storm it's easily taken care of.
3Z is also very strong imo. If they all play good and smart with good unit combos 3 Z's massing skills are hard to stop with any combo, imagine 200+ guardians coming down on you, it wouldn't end pretty. There ability to reinforce also makes them strong as hell.
Generally though, just as long as you have a terran in the mix who can mass tanks it helps a lot.
i think for strongest combos i would say PPT then ZZZ. two T's are unnecessary and just create useless clutter. PPZ is also strong beucase guardians with good ground support can break a push pretty easily too. You mean PPT?
yep whoops.
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Would anyone actually be interested in meeting in some random east (money game heaven) channel and organize some 3v3 ZC goodness?
I'm in for that .
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On June 05 2008 07:47 Centric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2008 06:33 Wangsta wrote:On June 05 2008 05:53 Centric wrote:
After re-reading the title and the OP of this thread, I realized that there's a clear oxymoron when you try to put competitive and "no rush" together. then you are being close minded would a team of 3 progamers beat u and two of your friends in a 3v3 norush game? probably. the fact that public games are full of newbs is meaningless, 1v1 public games on regular maps are all newbs too (with an occassional D/D- level player who still isnt good at all) I've already stated before that I used to play competitive fastest, so I have nothing against the map. The problem with a no-rush game is that remove a lot of the do stuff quickly element that makes up a large part of SC. The fact that a team of progamers would beat me and a couple friends is irrelevant.
not really, when you're playing with good people the no rush period is still hectic because in 3v3 games the map maxes (cant build anything else) in under 10 minutes, so you have to build as quickly and efficiently as possible.
and then once you're past that its still very fast paced because you have such a big base to manage(and need to macro pretty much perfectly off 20-30 production facilities) while managing a maxed army, and usually watching for constant recall attemps.
obviously its not as fast paced and difficult as low money maps, but playing against good players is still very challenging and theres no real superiority in no rules vs no rush.
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correct ^
i really hate the notion that certain maps are "newb." its true that most of the people who play money maps are newb, but the map itself is as competitive as the players make it
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thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between.
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On June 06 2008 14:04 IdrA wrote:
thats taking it a bit too far, low money maps definitely do require more skill simply because of the diversity of game styles and the added layers of depth that come from economy management. you have to worry about worker counts, expo timing, remaining money, etc. also while money maps are almost solely 200 vs 200 battles + suicide attempts on the main low money ranges from money-esque macro tvps to 20 minute zvzs where neither player ever has more than 12 drones, and everything in between.
have you ever seen 2 VGT players ZvZ? usually the games last 2 hours due to swarm lurker defence and plague on mutas taking mains.
edit: VGT is a fastest map ladder (next season june 15)
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EPT
