EPT[Q] tvp early zealot rush
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parkwhf
United States8 Posts
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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MoOnrai
United States52 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
The big problem is getting your factory up. The zealots will immediately go for the scv making it...I personally like to make my first fac pretty close to the marine safe zone, usually right by the refinery. If you dont get the factory up its almost impossible to win. I personally queue up as many marines as I can afford, since its really difficult to do the scv/marine micro and not have your macro slip. Thats just from my experience though.... If you scout well, you can generally see it coming, and then all you have to do is put 2 or 3 scvs on your ramp, 2 marines behind, and all on hold position. In that case, you can get your tank out pretty safely, but he will try and push through as soon as he gets his goon, so I like to leave my scvs on the ramp/send one out for a small loop to see if/when its coming. But maybe someone has better advice. sorry if this advice sucks  | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
- Good SCV/marine micro - Vults/mines | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
Building a bunker isn't something you want to do, but losing out on 100 minerals sure as hell beats dropping a game because of zealot pressure. | ||
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conCentrate9
United States438 Posts
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
It is the simplest floatchart in the world: - Are you sure he is not going to Zealot rush? -> No need to wall. - Is there a possibility that he might Zealot rush, but you have the micro to fend him off with SCVRine? -> No need to wall. - Do you not have the necessarry micro to stop Zealots, but have still decided not to wall? -> Slap yourself in the face, put 4 SCVs on ramp and Marines behind. - Have you not managed to stop his Zealots from getting up your ramp? -> Slap yourself in the face, build a Bunker which covers your Factory, Assimilator and Mineral line at once. - Did you still lose to a Zealot rush? -> Fucking wall next time. There is a reason that professionals don't wall - they have the micro and the scouting. Unless you do, wall your fucking ramp. It costs you about 50 minerals and makes your marginally more vulnerable to DT drops. *If you for some reason are playing unwallable maps, i.e. Luna, you need to build Marines and get that Factory ASAP, scout for dedicated Zealot rushes and take ramp with SCVs or just build a bunker. If you prefer, you can also not wall every single game and hope that you will learn the micro before you grow tired of getting Zeal rushed. There is no secret trick to stopping them (other than not using crappy buildorders) - just practice. Just like splitting SCVs or microing MnM versus Lukers | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
On March 07 2008 08:11 DekkuM wrote: Press [enter], g, g, [enter], [f10], e, s, q. That's normally what I do. Hopefully someone who doesn't suck as bad as me'll have better advice.  Wow you really are a nub... Why wouldn't you just hit alt+q+q it's way faster.... But simply walling on any wallable map is the best solution. If you can't wall and you know you're planning to go 2 fac I *think* it would be advisable to scout in time to see their base to know if you need to make extra marines or on a map like tau wall with 2-4 scvs at choke with rines behind obv. Another solution is on any ramped or small choke you can block with 1 (or 2 on a larger ramp like luna) with scvs make 1 rine and float rax over scvs. To work the P player must not be able to click on the scvs and if he tries and walk up against the scvs spam "Stop" on them to make sure they don't attack it. I had this done to me and an scv, a rine, and a floating rax completely owned my 8 zeals. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8047 Posts
That's what you say. Boxer himself, who doesn't have especially bad micro, is sometimes walling toss. Let's say it's just less tiring than hardcore microing especially if you suck at multitasking and don't want to lose precious time. | ||
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
Essentially, there are two kinds of units in StarCraft: threatning and non-threatning. The second category includes all units without any attack (Medics, Templar, SciVessel) and workers. The unit-AI will always attack theatning units before non-threatning, under the condition that another of your units (or the same unit) takes damage from a non-worker attack. Giving a new attack/stop/hold/patrol command will reset this state until yet another of your units take damage from a non-worker attack. This is the reason why your Templars are never even touched by the Zerg until the rest of your army is gone (unless he force-attacks), why Zergling AI is totally fucked up around probes. This is the reason why, if you spam attack with your Zerglings, they will attack probes, until the next time the Zealot attacks. This is also part of the reason why Medic walls work so well. So, to prevent the Zealot from attacking your SCVs, I am pretty sure preventing them from attacking is not necessary (though it is important to hold them in position). Actually, I think you wasting free damage. What you need to do is: a) make sure Barracks obscures vision to prevent him from targeting b) apply a steady stream of non-worker damage, faster that the slowest of [him spamming attack, the Zealot attack animation]. This is done by keeping two Marines, preferably out of phase, behind the SCVs. PS: versus Zerlings, the attack animation is much faster, so it is even more likely that they get in a few bites on the SCVs before marine-damage changes their designated target. PSS: in a XvX, you need to apply damage to all players trying to break your ramp. If, for instance, there are two different players with Zealots, you need to constantly damage both players' units. Note: I have not done extensive testing on this, but I'm fairly certain this is how it actually works. For instance, say you get your Zealot inside his base. He sends 4SCVs to attack it while dancing the Marine around. These SCVs are hitting your Zealot, but your Zealot will not hit back unless you force-attack or unless you give an attack-to command and the Zealot manages to attack before the next attack from the Marine. On the worker-combat AI: Workers have weird AI. One of the consequences of this is that, if you attack a Probe with a Zealot, the Probe will automatically disengage. If, however, the Probe for some reason gets in a hit on the Zealot before the Zealot hits the Probe (this doesn't normally happen, unless you force-move near the Probe, letting it attack the Zealot before the Zealot attacks), the Probe goes into war-mode, and will not disengage, regardless of how many times it gets hit by a Zealot. This is a very useful trick for killing of those idle worker scouts when the other player is not paying attention. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
Its better if they attack....you can have them repair each other as well if needed | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
build bunker close to gas build depot close to gas build depot close to cc | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On March 07 2008 08:11 DekkuM wrote: Press [enter], g, g, [enter], [f10], e, s, q. That's normally what I do. Hopefully someone who doesn't suck as bad as me'll have better advice. Why do you post in the strategy forum if you don't have anything useful to contribute. If you don't know anything, then ask a question at least. To the OP: You should follow Chill's guidelines because one of these days he will explode and ban everybody | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
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Danger_Duck
Burkina Faso571 Posts
Think of it this way- 1. 2 gate = late tech, you've basically won if you stop his zealot rush while losing a few marines and even like 2 scvs/zealot kill. 2 gate zealot rush is bordering on cheese in most cases, and as long as you learn how to punish such silliness, you've won. 2. 1 gate= later goons/expo. You are free to take your natural and enter macro mode as the robo bay will likely come later (barring cheese upon cheese. Be careful of 1gate into dt drop). Basically, just scout out what he's doing so you can use his disadvantage to the utmost. But yeah, you obviously need to fight it off the ways the others have pointed out first. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On March 07 2008 08:03 parkwhf wrote: What do you do when your playing terran and you start with 2fac and suddenly at scv 14 you are rushed with 2 zealots vs 1 marine and they start attacking fac builder. you bring three scvs with your marine to handle the job then he retreats to choke. brings 2 more zealots. he goes straight range goons after. gg? I'll just say that you should be scouting after your rax/gas has started. Make your rax/supply near your cc and make it such a way that rines can run through it. WHENEVER you are planning to 2 fact you should ALWAYS wall if possible. If you havent scouted your opponent by the time your second fact should be started (ie he isnt at the first 2 spots you check) you need to pull scvs from gas for a bit and pump marines before starting your second fact. Make 1-2 vults depending on how many zeals sent. Micro well (much easier thanks to the new lan settings). Oh and ya a bunker near your fact is wise if you're not confident in your marine micro. 2 zeals against 1 marine is very tough, you definitely shouldn't pull scvs , you should just pull 1 or 2 to swap with the one building the factory. Pulling scvs and engaging will just make it easier for him to pick off scvs, which is usually a good protoss's main priority anyways. If you have more marines feel free to engage with scvs. Just pull back the ones being targeted. And yes as someone mentioned before, you should immediately take any scvs on gas off. Sorry one more thing lol. If you're really having trouble with these types of builds, start using 11 rax/11 gas at the same time and make a vult first unless youre sure hes not zeal rushing. | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4141 Posts
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Ars][HuGE
Mexico2 Posts
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SoulMarine
United States586 Posts
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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KO_SharpMind
Canada277 Posts
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Firestonezz
United States17 Posts
Other than that, good building placement (barracks next to cc), and good micro can help fend off 1 zealot/probe harass. | ||
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Bebop Berserker
United States246 Posts
On March 07 2008 08:36 GeneralStan wrote: A bunker is indeed an efficient way to counter. If he brings more than 3 zealots, just make sure to assign three or four SCVs to repairing the bunker. Building a bunker isn't something you want to do, but losing out on 100 minerals sure as hell beats dropping a game because of zealot pressure. When deciding of to build a bunker ask yourself: Who will come up ahead if neither of us loses any units(after you build bunker)? In zealot rush with 2 gates and 3 zealots toss delays his tech by so much that you can get speed and mine vultures and harass like crazy(or just take your advantage and expand) | ||
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SoulMarine
United States586 Posts
On June 16 2009 06:20 Bebop Berserker wrote: When deciding of to build a bunker ask yourself: Who will come up ahead if neither of us loses any units(after you build bunker)? In zealot rush with 2 gates and 3 zealots toss delays his tech by so much that you can get speed and mine vultures and harass like crazy(or just take your advantage and expand) Well , if you don't make a bunker but lose the game , whats the point? Also, it won't delay his tech all that much. It's fairly easy to throw up a Core and Gas .. | ||
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Bebop Berserker
United States246 Posts
On June 16 2009 06:28 SoulMarine wrote: Well , if you don't make a bunker but lose the game , whats the point? Also, it won't delay his tech all that much. It's fairly easy to throw up a Core and Gas .. Ummmm... he JUST spent 600 minerals instead of 150 and probably cute a probe or two. You on the other hand have 4 marines and a bunker(300 minerals). You have to be retarded if you think protoss isn't quite far behind. Sure its easy to put up a core and gas, but it is VERY delayed. He wont have obs out forever and thats if he goes straight for them(Not to mention expanding and getting goon range.) As you can see toss needs to do 3 things at once while terran can still skip an ebay for a bit(mines). | ||
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IceCube
Croatia1403 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On June 16 2009 04:33 Ars][HuGE wrote: bunker and vulture. ^^ what......................? first post.....? | ||
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genryou
Malaysia390 Posts
In one of those post, this guy said "if toss goes 2 gates and you manage to defend agaisnt the zealot rush, then you are basically won." what does basically won mean? because its just an early game another example Canata vs some protoss, the toss goes 2 shuttle, attempt to drop, Canata's wraith destroyed both shuttle. and in his interview, Canata said "when i have destroyed the shuttle, i think i have won" does destroying 2 shuttle + units in it have that much of an advantage? that he think he have already won? | ||
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Firestonezz
United States17 Posts
On June 16 2009 08:38 genryou wrote: maybe the BUMP was a good thing after all because i got something to ask after reading this topic. In one of those post, this guy said "if toss goes 2 gates and you manage to defend agaisnt the zealot rush, then you are basically won." what does basically won mean? because its just an early game another example Canata vs some protoss, the toss goes 2 shuttle, attempt to drop, Canata's wraith destroyed both shuttle. and in his interview, Canata said "when i have destroyed the shuttle, i think i have won" does destroying 2 shuttle + units in it have that much of an advantage? that he think he have already won? Depends. What was in those shuttles? How early in game? And equal bases/army? | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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_Air_
United States146 Posts
On June 16 2009 08:38 genryou wrote: maybe the BUMP was a good thing after all because i got something to ask after reading this topic. In one of those post, this guy said "if toss goes 2 gates and you manage to defend agaisnt the zealot rush, then you are basically won." what does basically won mean? because its just an early game another example Canata vs some protoss, the toss goes 2 shuttle, attempt to drop, Canata's wraith destroyed both shuttle. and in his interview, Canata said "when i have destroyed the shuttle, i think i have won" does destroying 2 shuttle + units in it have that much of an advantage? that he think he have already won? If that protoss had reavers in it, then yes he won. A simple way to explain it is if both terran and protoss play standard, then they will have an equal army. Protoss can quick tech to reaver if he wishes instead of playing normal. This will reduce his army size, but if he manages to get enough SCV / unit kills he can disrupt and put his opponent far enough behind that it was worth it. But, if he loses those units without doing any damage, then hes going to be behind. Make sense? | ||
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