This is a topic, that I wanted to start a long time ago. Here we go.
Obviously, most of us stand no chance when facing a Brood War progamer. Yet, sometimes, I see them do things that could be done in a more better/efficient way. And these things are easy to execute, so easy, that even I am able to do so. Why don't they care more?
Here are my two examples.
1) Protoss pushing into terran with buildings floating around. Dragoons stay behind for a while attacking the building, while zealots quickly die in the front. When I play, I always use the move command and have dragoons rejoin zealots, targetting terran units instead of buildings. It's automatic for me. But I've seen Stork too many times throwing his army to a single floating barrack. Even in Best games this can be seen sometimes.
2) Chasing first overlord with first corsair. Many players start attacking the overlord when corsair comes into range and do not move closer. As overlord runs away, corsair stops attacking once in a while to move back to the range again. With scourge being an imminent danger, I wonder, why they simply do not move the corsair as close as possible and kill it few seconds faster. I always do it automatically.
Please share your thoughts. Are these little things really so insignificant? Did you spot similar inefficiencies in programer games?
On may 20 2025 20:40 jtkirk wrote: Did you spot similar inefficiencies in programer games?
Yes! OK so I always see progamers using the mouse to move the screen over the main geyser to build refinery/extractor/assimilator. Sometimes it takes 2-3 mouse flicks to get the building centered properly especially if they over/under-shoot the screen with that initial screen movement.
Instead I use an Fkey (F2-F3-F4, whichever you use for main/nat) because in its default (unchanged) location, it is always slightly "above" the town hall. So, this allows for instant placement of the building on the gas, with no mouse movement required!
For harassment, why not shift attack spam on a worker line? Even at the very highest level you’ll see Zealots or vultures or whatever get in, kill a few and get aggroed off the second an army unit shows up
When I play, I always use the move command and have dragoons rejoin zealots
Congratulations! Now your dragoons rejoined with zealots and blew up on mines together <3
I think he meant when there are no mines and you can bring your goons in. It is fine and true in that situation. And I do see pros goons wasting their time like this, but goons are hard to control and they've gotten much better with this in current play.
Not shift clicking shuttles away after dropping on tanks in pvt, or moving the shuttle a bit later. Very common having 3-4 shuttles micro-ed for the drop, then they loiter over there until a Goliath comes over 2mins later.
Though i understand this is the start of battle so there are a lot of things to do but maybe a hotkey for the shuttle and press it after the battle fully starts?
For things i do as well as pros, I am an expert at storming my own obs in pvz, if i do say so myself. On par with the pros
On May 21 2025 21:24 WGT-Baal wrote: Not shift clicking shuttles away after dropping on tanks in pvt, or moving the shuttle a bit later. Very common having 3-4 shuttles micro-ed for the drop, then they loiter over there until a Goliath comes over 2mins later.
Though i understand this is the start of battle so there are a lot of things to do but maybe a hotkey for the shuttle and press it after the battle fully starts?
For things i do as well as pros, I am an expert at storming my own obs in pvz, if i do say so myself. On par with the pros
Shift clicking with corsairs after targeting overlords. Corsairs attack cooldown is so fast they can almost immediately move after the last shot and this gives them some extra speed for sneaking in last hits and dodging attacks. Makes multi with them a little easier as well.
Sunken placement zvt - when built close to the hatch sunkens provide coverage behind the mineral line and for most of the back side of the natural expansion. On some modern maps like Dominator all of the area in the back is covered.
But also general building placement in zvt - a common layout you'll see lategame Zerg end up with in their main is something like this + Show Spoiler +
, which is very disadvantageous for defense with lings and lurks vs MM drops due to chokes between the buildings.
consuming lings with a defiler by moving the defiler towards the clump of lings, then consuming the front ones and then either waiting for the animation to finish to get to the lings further behind or by moving the defiler again
it's quicker to bring the lings to the defiler instead. move command a bit behind the defiler so the lings surround the defiler and are in range for consume
On May 20 2025 20:40 jtkirk wrote: This is a topic, that I wanted to start a long time ago. Here we go.
Obviously, most of us stand no chance when facing a Brood War progamer. Yet, sometimes, I see them do things that could be done in a more better/efficient way. And these things are easy to execute, so easy, that even I am able to do so. Why don't they care more?
Here are my two examples.
1) Protoss pushing into terran with buildings floating around. Dragoons stay behind for a while attacking the building, while zealots quickly die in the front. When I play, I always use the move command and have dragoons rejoin zealots, targetting terran units instead of buildings. It's automatic for me. But I've seen Stork too many times throwing his army to a single floating barrack. Even in Best games this can be seen sometimes.
2) Chasing first overlord with first corsair. Many players start attacking the overlord when corsair comes into range and do not move closer. As overlord runs away, corsair stops attacking once in a while to move back to the range again. With scourge being an imminent danger, I wonder, why they simply do not move the corsair as close as possible and kill it few seconds faster. I always do it automatically.
Please share your thoughts. Are these little things really so insignificant? Did you spot similar inefficiencies in programer games?
You are not doing in better, you are doing it different. SC is a game of priorities, while you micro your goons or corsair, pros make a macro round or so. And they found it more important to prioritise. It is also a matter of individual styles, some people prefer to micro one screen, some go macro, others jump to another place to harras at the same time.
On May 23 2025 07:06 Kraekkling wrote: Sunken placement zvt - when built close to the hatch sunkens provide coverage behind the mineral line and for most of the back side of the natural expansion. On some modern maps like Dominator all of the area in the back is covered.
But also general building placement in zvt - a common layout you'll see lategame Zerg end up with in their main is something like this + Show Spoiler +
, which is very disadvantageous for defense with lings and lurks vs MM drops due to chokes between the buildings.
On May 21 2025 21:24 WGT-Baal wrote: Not shift clicking shuttles away after dropping on tanks in pvt, or moving the shuttle a bit later. Very common having 3-4 shuttles micro-ed for the drop, then they loiter over there until a Goliath comes over 2mins later.
Though i understand this is the start of battle so there are a lot of things to do but maybe a hotkey for the shuttle and press it after the battle fully starts?
For things i do as well as pros, I am an expert at storming my own obs in pvz, if i do say so myself. On par with the pros
I'm convinced SKT1 players never learned this in the team house, and that to this day Bisu still doesn't know about this lmao
I guess this is old knowledge but there's literally no reason to not always do this
this is mostly relevant for whenever T or P get a scouting worker into the base of Zerg or try to keep the scout alive for some time - it is always better to mine a mineral chunk with your scouting worker. The return cargo command is like an additional ability which allows to instantly head home while ignoring unit collision; and it doesn't require to switch screens.
its really not that uncommon to see a Probe get stuck somewhere for a moment while being micro'ed and instantly die to lings, which could have been an easy escape if return cargo was available
On May 28 2025 02:32 Kraekkling wrote: I guess this is old knowledge but there's literally no reason to not always do this
this is mostly relevant for whenever T or P get a scouting worker into the base of Zerg or try to keep the scout alive for some time - it is always better to mine a mineral chunk with your scouting worker. The return cargo command is like an additional ability which allows to instantly head home while ignoring unit collision; and it doesn't require to switch screens.
its really not that uncommon to see a Probe get stuck somewhere for a moment while being micro'ed and instantly die to lings, which could have been an easy escape if return cargo was available
Except you lose the ability to prevent drones from mining a patch
On May 28 2025 02:32 Kraekkling wrote: I guess this is old knowledge but there's literally no reason to not always do this
this is mostly relevant for whenever T or P get a scouting worker into the base of Zerg or try to keep the scout alive for some time - it is always better to mine a mineral chunk with your scouting worker. The return cargo command is like an additional ability which allows to instantly head home while ignoring unit collision; and it doesn't require to switch screens.
its really not that uncommon to see a Probe get stuck somewhere for a moment while being micro'ed and instantly die to lings, which could have been an easy escape if return cargo was available
Except you lose the ability to prevent drones from mining a patch
true!! which means there's an optimal timing to mine
On May 23 2025 07:06 Kraekkling wrote: Sunken placement zvt - when built close to the hatch sunkens provide coverage behind the mineral line and for most of the back side of the natural expansion. On some modern maps like Dominator all of the area in the back is covered.
But also general building placement in zvt - a common layout you'll see lategame Zerg end up with in their main is something like this + Show Spoiler +
, which is very disadvantageous for defense with lings and lurks vs MM drops due to chokes between the buildings.
are at least somewhat protected by the sunks and there is no potential for terran units to kite backwards.
Could be wrong since i dont main zvt but i think pros are placing sunkens that way because drops are not a priority early game, defending vs the first group of mnm is. And if you place the sunkens touching the hatchery like that then you give them an opportunity to potentially just stim and runby into your main in some situations. Also its more difficult to place additional sunkens behind if youre doing stuff like muta+ling counter base trade there, and also theres less space to have a nydus behind the sunkens.
The main tech buildings are placed tightly together around the main hatchery so you can more easily defend with fewer dark swarms, having chokes between the buildings isnt the biggest issue there.
If all pros are using similar building placements theres probably a good reason for it, as goes for any of their other habits. I dont think they are infallible but they will be doing stuff that works best for them, after optimizing over many thousands of games.
edit: forgot also that vs tank pushes, having the sunkens placed forward is important as well because you dont want terran to be able to siege down your main hatchery or hit spawning defilers withou first killing all the sunkens in the way, so its essential the sunkens be placed at least somewhat forward. Thats probably more important that the other stuff i mentioned even
- If I see a flock of scourge, I try to attack them instead of running away with all corsairs and end up losing them to scourge connects anyway. I see progamers do this a lot.
- Focus down buildings.
- Not retreat your army and lose the entire army. Even if its a losing battle, at least I get -something- out of it. I often see protoss pro-gamers just run away and end up losing it without doing any dmg, which I never understood why.
On June 03 2025 09:34 FyRe_DragOn wrote: edit: forgot also that vs tank pushes, having the sunkens placed forward is important as well because you dont want terran to be able to siege down your main hatchery or hit spawning defilers withou first killing all the sunkens in the way, so its essential the sunkens be placed at least somewhat forward. Thats probably more important that the other stuff i mentioned even
it could be unoptimized for the current meta
as in, Zergs learned fifteen years ago that against the 3 tank push you want your sunkens up front
but vs. two hatch muta meta 3 tank 1 vessel pushes are pretty weak since you must both not get your marine ball killed and still kill the hatch before swarm
so the placement meta probably evolved over time, where it's more optimal now to be closer to the hatch, especially vs. vulture run by where they go behind your expansion minerals
against marine busts it's good to build an evo chamber messing up the marine pathing to your sunkens and choke, so if they try to run by you have an extra second to drone pull back to your main
A similar thread might be titled "progamers always do this better"
When Sea was highly active in SOSPA days (pre-remastered, pre-dancing-semi-nude-female-university-balloon-trawler days, and arguable the best terran at the time), he always placed his CC perfectly at expansions, without having to check if it was the correct distance from the mineral patches. He is only progamer ive ever seen who is 100% confident in placement. Everyone always move town hall close to mineral patch (so that the building is "red") and then move it into "green" space to ensure accurate placement.
Could be wrong since i dont main zvt but i think pros are placing sunkens that way because drops are not a priority early game, defending vs the first group of mnm is. And if you place the sunkens touching the hatchery like that then you give them an opportunity to potentially just stim and runby into your main in some situations.
Yes, those sunks are usually placed vs the first group of MM on the map, but this doesn't change the fact that they might be more useful later on vs drop as well. When playing vs 2rax or academy rush, you also need a few lings as well and also need to be ready to pull drones. The change in sunken placement doesn't affect the threat of run-by at all imo.
Also its more difficult to place additional sunkens behind if youre doing stuff like muta+ling counter base trade there, and also theres less space to have a nydus behind the sunkens.
Somewhat true but minor. Obviously larva can get in the way, so sometimes you won't have time or attention to deal with that and need to place sunks ASAP.
The main tech buildings are placed tightly together around the main hatchery so you can more easily defend with fewer dark swarms, having chokes between the buildings isnt the biggest issue there.
This is not true at all...
If all pros are using similar building placements theres probably a good reason for it, as goes for any of their other habits. I dont think they are infallible but they will be doing stuff that works best for them, after optimizing over many thousands of games.
The argument you're making could be made at basically any point in the history of the game. I think it can take a while until some ideas are cemented in the meta. To give an example, if you watch a PvZ from the last few months, whenever the spawns allow it, the Protoss will pretty much always "tuck in" their forge, which is a bit better vs hydra builds: + Show Spoiler +
. If you went back one year (or further), this was much less standardized. Neither the maps, nor the meta changed much since then.
edit: forgot also that vs tank pushes, having the sunkens placed forward is important as well because you dont want terran to be able to siege down your main hatchery or hit spawning defilers withou first killing all the sunkens in the way, so its essential the sunkens be placed at least somewhat forward. Thats probably more important that the other stuff i mentioned even
tank pushes are almost non-existent in todays meta... its true that vs tank push one needs to make sunks and spread them forwards, but this is not affected that much by the placement of the initial sunks.
Sometimes it may seem they are not microing a battle optimally, but it's also important to pay attention to what else they are doing while this is going on. For example, goons and zealots might've been attack moved into the terran army WHILE gateways are re-macroed or a storm drop is happening somewhere else. Progamers and very high level players often use attacks to disguise their move somewhere else. And at some point you try to weigh in your options which is better in that specific moment - do i micro my army for better trades or do i trade some of it to gain advantage elsewhere? My observation when i've watched progamers play PvT is they would often trade a lot of units to keep the terran army defensive and in smaller numbers. That way they are buying time to expand, mine for longer and eventually (fingers crossed) beat the army when it comes out.
On May 23 2025 07:06 Kraekkling wrote: Sunken placement zvt - when built close to the hatch sunkens provide coverage behind the mineral line and for most of the back side of the natural expansion. On some modern maps like Dominator all of the area in the back is covered.
But also general building placement in zvt - a common layout you'll see lategame Zerg end up with in their main is something like this + Show Spoiler +
, which is very disadvantageous for defense with lings and lurks vs MM drops due to chokes between the buildings.
are at least somewhat protected by the sunks and there is no potential for terran units to kite backwards.
There's pros and cons to most things in SC and this sunken placement is a perfect example.
It may be slightly better for drops (drops will still mess you up) but it's worst vs tank pushes. If a Terran goes for a tank / bio push / bust, It's easier to delay having room for sunkens to be built in the back. This is important in plenty of scenarios where you want to allow time for your mutas to widdle down a super quick tank / bio push or if you need to delay a tank / bio push for a defiler to come out.
But again, there's pros and cons to most things in SC. It's just where you want to set your priorities and where you think the best EV is.
EPT
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Bisu can.
