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United States10208 Posts
On October 21 2023 20:52 Peeano wrote:There is a great late game PvZ played between Snow and Soma a 2-4 days ago on Major Proleague. You guys should watch that to get some answers on reaver usage PvZ. From the ASL final + Show Spoiler +we can learn how essential it is to cast the plagues on reavers. We can also see it in Snow vs Soma I hope to see some maelstrom again in PvZ late game. I believe that is key in keeping reavers alive longer and actually push a base. The problem is Archon/DA/goon/rvr are all big and clunky where as ling/hydra/scourge all move quick and with ease. In Snow vs Soma you can see you can't really stop a Zerg from sniping your plagued reaver/shuttle. Both storm and scarabs can be dodged long enough to make a snipe on the reaver, which then completely shuts down the push. If you can somehow save up 250 energy on a DA, mindcontrolling lone lurkers can be a great counter to ling/dra (you want to use other 100 energy for a maelstrom). Tbf mind control already sounds too situational and not practical where as in BGH/fmp it's rather easy to achieve. Imho you can easily tell when a pro hardly ever played money maps and ums when it comes to late game and proper army compositions and movement. Throwing in 1 Arbiter could also help with protection even though it could be fairly easily sniped. It can mean your rvr will survive that little bit longer again to push.
I do think that Arbiters to break through a zerg sim city is something that needs to be looked at more. I guess that Arbiters are slow and die easily to scourge, but if Zerg isn't prepared for it, one recall into the main can destroy all the tech and end the game as zerg has to try to reposition their entire defense with lurkers and swarm. While they're doing that, they're very exposed and you can easily storm while they try to come to you.
As a Protoss, attacking into Zerg feels awful. But zerg attacking you feels awful for a zerg if you have reavers/storm.
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United States11391 Posts
Shuttle used to go arbiter lategame pvz a good portion of the time.
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I still think Disruption Web is an underutilized ability for PvT in situations where P succeeds at trading for tanks at the 3rd, but won't be able to actually break the T and has enough bank to support the fleet beacon, upgrade, and 3 corsairs, but not enough to go straight carrier with air upgrades. Can bust the 4th or 5th with D webs when the T is trying to split the map, and can actually trade a little better when T hits 3/2.
I think we don't see it because the situations where using corsiars makes sense are very narrow, and P players don't want to practice moving corsairs around while also using templars, trying to storm things for the 1 in 50 games when it actually makes sense to do it.
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United States10208 Posts
On October 27 2023 05:56 ThunderJunk wrote:
I still think Disruption Web is an underutilized ability for PvT in situations where P succeeds at trading for tanks at the 3rd, but won't be able to actually break the T and has enough bank to support the fleet beacon, upgrade, and 3 corsairs, but not enough to go straight carrier with air upgrades. Can bust the 4th or 5th with D webs when the T is trying to split the map, and can actually trade a little better when T hits 3/2.
I think we don't see it because the situations where using corsiars makes sense are very narrow, and P players don't want to practice moving corsairs around while also using templars, trying to storm things for the 1 in 50 games when it actually makes sense to do it.
Problem is stasis does the same job as d-web, and arbiters give you more utility than sairs, which are completely useless except for the d-web. Yes, arbiters are more expensive gas wise but only 100 energy vs 125 energy, and the units stasised are totally frozen whereas terran can try to reposition vs dweb. Plus if they just pull back from d-web, your units have to go through the d-web too now.
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Norway28694 Posts
Tbh i think there are situations in pvz where p should get web. Not very common, but in games where p holds on to the first 6 sairs and z decides to hold mid game with sunken lurker rather than mass hydra, im 100% certain there exists an unmapped timing where swapping 2 templars and 2 goons for 6 webs will win you the game.
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In ultra late game PvT, where P has gone Arbiters, why doesn't P switch into carriers?
I was watching this game and I don't understand why Bisu didn't tech switch, especially when light had so many tanks. Is it just too slow and supply-ineffective?
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On November 08 2023 09:55 Monochromatic wrote:In ultra late game PvT, where P has gone Arbiters, why doesn't P switch into carriers? I was watching this game and I don't understand why Bisu didn't tech switch, especially when light had so many tanks. Is it just too slow and supply-ineffective?
I think the key limitation is upgrades, if you upgrade air as you go and before the switch it makes sense otherwise 0-0-0 interceptors get shredded by 3-3 Goliaths
But also yes it takes time
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United States10208 Posts
The carrier switch makes sense if you have a boatload of money to spare. But if it's late game with Terran having big upgrades and they're constantly pressuring you, you don't have time to drop stargates and have a lot of supply tied up to building carriers, you need regular units out ASAP to push back Terran.
I find that that carrier switch is mostly a "win more" play rather than zergs switching it up on the fly since their units take much less time to build.
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On November 09 2023 06:20 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 09:55 Monochromatic wrote:In ultra late game PvT, where P has gone Arbiters, why doesn't P switch into carriers? I was watching this game and I don't understand why Bisu didn't tech switch, especially when light had so many tanks. Is it just too slow and supply-ineffective? I think the key limitation is upgrades, if you upgrade air as you go and before the switch it makes sense otherwise 0-0-0 interceptors get shredded by 3-3 Goliaths But also yes it takes time
Time, and locked up supply are the biggest things, even if you have the resources and upgrades. You need 3 stargates to build up carriers fast enough lategame, and then your army is ~1/8 smaller for ~3 minutes. 3 is mostly a drop defense or firefighting quantity, so really you need 2 cycles, so 6 minutes with 1/8 to 1/4 standing army size. It's a non-trivial transition when at that point Protoss normally is throwing armies at the Terran to keep the army sizes and composition manageable.
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EPT
