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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Jl6CfK3.png) This is a no brainer vs Zerg if you already have 6+ sairs from early gameplay, why wouldnt you use the energy to your advantage to break lurker contain, hill exp (lurk/sunk) or fortified natural. VS Terran you would need 3 sairs each getting 2 webs, 6 webs total that could potentially stop the whole tank line. The unit is of medium size and wont get insta killed from gols. Discuss and upload some 'web' replays if you please, for entertainment purposes. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3476 Posts
 Vs T the main issue really is EMP + if you want 2 web/sair you also need the energy upgrade. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland598 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3476 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On June 09 2022 03:30 WGT-Baal wrote: the problem vs Z is the investment in fleet beacon + dweb that cannot realistically happen on time to break a lurker contain (you would have had to go robo/obs first, on top of the ht tech, that s a lot on 2/3bases) But for a late game situation vs a campy Z definitely it would be pretty nice and i d also like to see some replays Vs T the main issue really is EMP + if you want 2 web/sair you also need the energy upgrade. Vs T you would have 4 sairs by the time you have 1 arbiter. Corsair can outrun a vessel and dodge EMP because high mobility compared to arb. Nearly 4 webs by the time you have 1 stasis. +50e is 100/100 (cheap). Totally agree on the high investment but one would have to look at it from different directions, examples would be in an early game where you build sairs to scout and to fight (deny) air usage you would pretty much have a high amount of sairs already before contain happens. The E is there but it requires the upgrade of web (500/400). If given web early it could even be used to indirectly limit the containment size because lack of overlords (web hydra/spore and kill lords). Corsair is useful for the whole game duration if web is enabled, its also not that easy to kill cause of medium size. I have much experimenting to do with this, web is a hella fun spell to cast Edit: The reason you need storm in the first place is because you need a spell to limit zerg dmg output, without it Z can force its dmg on you without repercussions. With web you would limit this dmg output because you block the areas used for doing so. In theory you could use goon+web only to win a game. That in itself is worth exploring | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
In PvT I can't see it being ideal in any scenario. It's been tested by pros and it's very clear that it takes away from more valuable tech options. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3476 Posts
On June 09 2022 15:56 MeSaber wrote: Vs T you would have 4 sairs by the time you have 1 arbiter. Corsair can outrun a vessel and dodge EMP because high mobility compared to arb. Nearly 4 webs by the time you have 1 stasis. +50e is 100/100 (cheap). Totally agree on the high investment but one would have to look at it from different directions, examples would be in an early game where you build sairs to scout and to fight (deny) air usage you would pretty much have a high amount of sairs already before contain happens. The E is there but it requires the upgrade of web (500/400). If given web early it could even be used to indirectly limit the containment size because lack of overlords (web hydra/spore and kill lords). Corsair is useful for the whole game duration if web is enabled, its also not that easy to kill cause of medium size. I have much experimenting to do with this, web is a hella fun spell to cast Edit: The reason you need storm in the first place is because you need a spell to limit zerg dmg output, without it Z can force its dmg on you without repercussions. With web you would limit this dmg output because you block the areas used for doing so. In theory you could use goon+web only to win a game. That in itself is worth exploring so you would go beacon before archive instead of ht/storm first then? that s actually pretty interesting and I ll be curious to see it in practice that early in the game, if you have a sort of BO and timing for the first dweb to be out it d be cool, but I ll also try it in single player and see how it goes, I ll post that here later. For late game instead of going reaver, I totally agree it s good in offense to break hard camping Z. for T yeah tbh I have terrible sair control so I would get EMP for sure but you are right you would have them move faster than the vessel can follow. Also an interesting tactic and also for the WTF effect on T who would likely need to spend precious gas on goliaths expecting carriers but instead runs into a full ground force with a couple sairs for Dweb, I ll experiment with it too! | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
In PvT it can be a late game option. Maybe usefull in adition to storm drops. In PvZ it can be good vs early 4 bases. Or in other situations. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
Maybe it could work against 4 gas mass muta/sunken style zerg. Having no map control with a ground army since you're investing in early sairs, fleet beacon & dweb will let zerg expand/outscale protoss too freely. Unless it's a split map situation or you're extremely ahead, most dweb pushes are going to be an all in with no backup plan if it fails. The game flow in PvZ doesn't really allow for dweb vs an equal skilled opponent. Sair/Reaver WITH dweb seems like an okay build if you want to experiment with dweb in PvZ. I've seen the gatewayman with 2 or 4 reaver push and the carrier transition from sair/reaver openings | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Ive watched a lot of snow lately and he definitely keeps sairs alive nearly the whole game. I would happily wanna see how he would abuse web in this instance if he manages to keep sair alive for that long. In comparison a HT's survivability is zero meaning you always need to buy new units for storm. Survivability is raised by using shuttles but from what i can see this is rare or only in storm drop play. And the reaver play vs T from Snow is exceptionally good. He can control the game by just 2 reavers, its so insane how much time he buys from this. In the instance of reaver being outplayed, which it becomes once T have way too many tanks (or 1 wraith/gol), the sairs (say 3-4 sairs) would have full E and surprise disabling tanks upon siege, being fully useless and army blown up, free way towards T nat/main with full army alive, except for some zels vs vultures. Another cool factor is that if T scans beacon he would switch to gols because of carrier 😂 which you dont produce. I was gonna say something fancy about beacon+web cost but forgot about it. In due time it will come. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
On June 10 2022 17:06 MeSaber wrote: In PvZ what im saying is why wouldnt you get web if you already have 6+ sairs. If you have E on all you could potentially push Z very far from where they wanna be at. Baal has a good point on the WTF effect, the surprise of seeing web used vs your lurkers or sunken fortified positions. Ive watched a lot of snow lately and he definitely keeps sairs alive nearly the whole game. I would happily wanna see how he would abuse web in this instance if he manages to keep sair alive for that long. In comparison a HT's survivability is zero meaning you always need to buy new units for storm. Survivability is raised by using shuttles but from what i can see this is rare or only in storm drop play. And the reaver play vs T from Snow is exceptionally good. He can control the game by just 2 reavers, its so insane how much time he buys from this. In the instance of reaver being outplayed, which it becomes once T have way too many tanks (or 1 wraith/gol), the sairs (say 3-4 sairs) would have full E and surprise disabling tanks upon siege, being fully useless and army blown up, free way towards T nat/main with full army alive, except for some zels vs vultures. Another cool factor is that if T scans beacon he would switch to gols because of carrier 😂 which you dont produce. I was gonna say something fancy about beacon+web cost but forgot about it. In due time it will come. So you're saying get fleet beacon off of 2 base? Before or after templar archives? I'm trying to understand this, "get web if you already have 6 sairs" but your timings have been pretty vague. HT survivability is nowhere near zero if you have good unit control. Morphing archons after storming is a thing and free. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
In the end you still need to produce more HTs which was my point, the constant gas waste of dying HTs. I.E bad survivability. Dont agree that you can make HTs survive better with good unit control, what you are saying here is that you somehow manage to block enemy fire by standing inbetween. HT alone stand no chance, no fleeing capability, too slow and worst acceleration if it gets blocked. Would argue you always should have a Shuttle for HTs because how more efficient/safe they become and the ability to save em from a losing battle. So you're saying get fleet beacon off of 2 base? Before or after templar archives? The idea is that whenever you go HTs you have a specific use-case, either break the contain or to kill hydras en masse. This accompanied with zel and goon for the meat and dmg. Going Archives you are already spending 150/100+150/200+200/200+150/150 = 650/650 and 152 seconds to get storm. Meanwhile no gas spent on HTs yet. And in ideal scenario you have 6+ sairs already roaming the map for lords/mutas/scourge kills. Thats 1000/700 at the minimum including +1 dmg. With 125e before web is done. So the change would be to skip HTs early and rely on sairs to break the contain with web+goons. This would cost you 300/200+200/200 = 500/400 and 88 seconds to get web. With instant access to web when ability is done. With probable 12+ goons for the break, each goon having the possible 9+ shots to be made until web is gone. Lurker needing 9 shots to be killed by goon. Hydra 6. Potential 12 goon dmg output meanwhile web exist would be 1600+ dmg vs lurker/hydra. If you then compare this to the needed storm amount to kill say 10+ lurkers containing you (and hydras trying to snipe your HTs). The waiting time for E on each HT (which makes the contain even stronger), the amount of gas you need for HTs and lack of goons/sairs/grades thereof. In a more realistic scenario (watching snow doing it) its fair to assume you dont break the contain by killing every lurker blocking you. You focus on one side (like half the contain) and once you killed enough lurkers or pushed hydras back enough you then run out sacrificing some zels/goons/hts by bruteforcing your way out. Could be fair to say you dont have to exaggerate on the amount of storms needed nor webs. Webs blocking duration of 15 seconds is no joke compared to storms 2.6 seconds, giving plenty of time to leave your nat for a good positioning. Zergs strength lies in the narrow choke of your nat, once thats unobtainable it wont be a good position to fight on anymore and the retreat will be inevitable. Most of Zergs timing for the contain is based on HTs ability to gain E in time to break. With web you can reduce the breaking time to an earlier time. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
On June 11 2022 02:28 MeSaber wrote: Archon isnt free at all. It costs you 2 HTs that could be way more useful as stormers (example vs mass hydras). Morphing Archon mid battle is a desperate measure to try make something useful of already dead HTs, which usually ends with a dead Archon too. In the end you still need to produce more HTs which was my point, the constant gas waste of dying HTs. I.E bad survivability. Dont agree that you can make HTs survive better with good unit control, what you are saying here is that you somehow manage to block enemy fire by standing inbetween. HT alone stand no chance, no fleeing capability, too slow and worst acceleration if it gets blocked. Would argue you always should have a Shuttle for HTs because how more efficient/safe they become and the ability to save em from a losing battle. The idea is that whenever you go HTs you have a specific use-case, either break the contain or to kill hydras en masse. This accompanied with zel and goon for the meat and dmg. Going Archives you are already spending 150/100+150/200+200/200+150/150 = 650/650 and 152 seconds to get storm. Meanwhile no gas spent on HTs yet. And in ideal scenario you have 6+ sairs already roaming the map for lords/mutas/scourge kills. Thats 1000/700 at the minimum including +1 dmg. With 125e before web is done. So the change would be to skip HTs early and rely on sairs to break the contain with web+goons. This would cost you 300/200+200/200 = 500/400 and 88 seconds to get web. With instant access to web when ability is done. With probable 12+ goons for the break, each goon having the possible 9+ shots to be made until web is gone. Lurker needing 9 shots to be killed by goon. Hydra 6. Potential 12 goon dmg output meanwhile web exist would be 1600+ dmg vs lurker/hydra. If you then compare this to the needed storm amount to kill say 10+ lurkers containing you (and hydras trying to snipe your HTs). The waiting time for E on each HT (which makes the contain even stronger), the amount of gas you need for HTs and lack of goons/sairs/grades thereof. In a more realistic scenario (watching snow doing it) its fair to assume you dont break the contain by killing every lurker blocking you. You focus on one side (like half the contain) and once you killed enough lurkers or pushed hydras back enough you then run out sacrificing some zels/goons/hts by bruteforcing your way out. Could be fair to say you dont have to exaggerate on the amount of storms needed nor webs. Webs blocking duration of 15 seconds is no joke compared to storms 2.6 seconds, giving plenty of time to leave your nat for a good positioning. Zergs strength lies in the narrow choke of your nat, once thats unobtainable it wont be a good position to fight on anymore and the retreat will be inevitable. Most of Zergs timing for the contain is based on HTs ability to gain E in time to break. With web you can reduce the breaking time to an earlier time. Morphing an archon after storming is free. Morphing an archon mid battle is not a desperate measure of any kind. If high templars have just over 75 energy, morphing archons after storming is the best choice. IMO, the only time it's not a good idea to morph an archon mid battle is when your templars have (guesstimate) 40-50+ energy? Poking, storming, making archons and retreating is necessary to keep the zerg honest in high lvl PvZ. Morphing archons after storming in the late game is very important, especially if zerg has more bases than protoss. War of attrition. You can make HT survive better with good unit control and not A-Moving like a lot of protoss players do. Keep HT near the front of your army but don't lead with them. Slightly retreat with 2 low energy HT that just stormed and morph an archon while the rest of your army fights. Protoss can't just bust zerg most of the time, you have to poke, storm, retreat, morph archons, rinse and repeat. Skipping HT early would mean you'd have to build a million cannons to survive early/mid game mass hydra. This is why I suggested Sair/Reaver with dweb. Without any early game zealot pressure, no 7 minute +1 zealot timing, no 6-7 minute DT, zerg is too free to drone and take a fast 4th base. When zerg gets that kind of freedom and economy, they just outscale protoss and overrun them with hydras. Without reaver or storm, protoss doesn't stop mass hydras at that point of the game. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1171 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/broodwar/comments/v8ahwf/pvt_surprise_protoss_party/ | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On June 11 2022 04:44 BlueStar wrote: <3 dweb, it's so beatiful https://www.reddit.com/r/broodwar/comments/v8ahwf/pvt_surprise_protoss_party/ You can guess what happens but does the quality need to be so bad? Who vs who? | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On June 10 2022 22:38 EndingLife wrote: So you're saying get fleet beacon off of 2 base? Before or after templar archives? I'm trying to understand this, "get web if you already have 6 sairs" but your timings have been pretty vague. HT survivability is nowhere near zero if you have good unit control. Morphing archons after storming is a thing and free. Obviously that doesn't really work if you try to have all tech at once, due to the fact you described. Gas is short and Zerg has a big opportunity to take the map. However, depending on the map used there are ways to go for D-Web. I remember mostly GoOdy using some 'unusual' builds during the WCG Germany Qualifiers shortly before SCII that somehow seemed to work, mostly on Python and Destination. He opened with a Forge FE and went for heavy Sair usage straight away, adding Shuttles + Speed early on. He turtled and added Reavers to harass, so Zerg could not break and had to defend. Later he used the Shuttles to take the Island near the main, as well as the high ground mains as own expansion. Eventually he transitioned into Carrier-heavy play. This way Zerg couldn't do too much, other than running into a split map situation. It was a very weird approach and due to the passive aggressive way GoOdy used his army, he didn't need as much APM on attacks than was necessary for Sair/Rvr + D-Web. I can't say if that strategy / Build would work against high level Zerg from Korea, it worked surprisingly well against foreigners. I assume partially, because you are not confronted with this style too often. Iirc he took out Kolll with this approach in the German KOTH - really entertaining games. Since some asked for replays, also Pusan vs. Sziky | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1171 Posts
On June 11 2022 23:04 MeSaber wrote: You can guess what happens but does the quality need to be so bad? Who vs who? It's just a regular ladder game I've been using corsairs for many years. Since the 1st time I saw fOru's dwebs in PvT I saw a lot of potential in them. The thing is - vs real gosu players you won't get as much value as out of other unit combos. Especially vs zerg - ye it helps to win some of the games but there are a lot of other much more important things that you need to do. The dweb doesn't continue very long tbh. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1600 Posts
For the OP: Here is an interesting sair/reaver with dweb against zerg that I saw last night. It's the first game on this link. Not a SUPER high level game but still an A/S rank game and pretty fun to watch. | ||
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