EPTValkyrie dmg formula? - Page 3
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
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stambe
Bulgaria499 Posts
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WolFix
Poland45 Posts
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ZOrb_
16 Posts
Also stand by everyone - I'm going to release a map soon that demos how to get perfect U-Turn micro on the Valkyrie, allowing you to fire backwards without glitching basically 100% of the time :_) | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
What do you mean "without glitching"? | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On May 12 2021 10:57 ZOrb_ wrote: Awesome write up @StRyKeR. I did a bunch of testing myself, as well as a review of the BWAPI (Although, this can't be considered as gospel, right? It is a fan project, not source code, no?) It is source code. Not Blizzard source code of course, but it does accurately reproduce the game's behaviour. If it didn't you couldn't run things like a replay viewer on it. | ||
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ZOrb_
16 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
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stambe
Bulgaria499 Posts
On May 13 2021 02:52 ZOrb_ wrote: Hey Saber, I found your post and it describes it PERFECTLY. I'm kinda surprised there are no replies because I feel like a lot of people tend to mess up or misunderstand that micro with the Valkyrie. The key is not to "click behind", but rather order the unit to do a RIGHT or LEFT U-turn - whichever one will allow the targeting scan to see the enemy in front as it spins around. I am almost done making both a Valk U-turn demo map as well as a practice map that should get this info out there. That would be sweet ! What do you mean to order the unit to do a left or right U-turn ? Like dont do patrol behind the valk, but at the side 45 degree angle ? Sorry for the question, but there is conflicting tips about valk micro all over the internet. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8kIUERx.png) | ||
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GGmano
103 Posts
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Poegim
Poland298 Posts
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ZOrb_
16 Posts
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iloveav
Poland1484 Posts
That is why a single valk is not as scary, but getting it dead soon is a priority for zerg in zvt. (well... i am assuming that because I am toss :D). | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1756 Posts
It's in Korean, but the gist is that he figures out that air units do NO splash to interceptors (as I've found by reading the source code) but ground units and spells do. He tested this by having a group of enemy interceptors (adjusted to 0 shields, 1 hp, 0 damage) attack a tanky unit (e.g. his own Command Center) and then attacking moving into the interceptors with units that have artificially inflated damage. The valk killed 8 units per volley (so one per missile) and the corsair killed one unit per attack, implying no splash damage being done. However, he finds one more interesting quirk, which is that when his valk attacks his own Command Center, he ends up killing 2-3 interceptors per volley, apparently doing splash. When his corsair attacks his own Command Center, once in a very long while does he kill an interceptor, apparently doing splash. This phenomenon is again explained by our reading of the source code: 1) yes, indeed, blizzard made a special exception for interceptors to never be included in the splash queue for taking air splash damage 2) valk missiles land in a wide region and do not always land close to the target, so in the case of the Command Center, if the Command Center isn't within the inner splash radius of a valk missile, the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage 3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage This brings up one more point, which is that why is the behavior different when attacking interceptors directly versus his own Command Center. The answer is that it is still explained. In the case of the valk attacking moving into interceptors, each valk missile likely rarely includes the original target in the full queue because interceptors are small and fast moving, and picking a random one within the larger splash radius. Since a valk has huge larger splash radius, it should almost always never have an empty full queue, thus getting one kill per missile. You don't get 8 kills per volley with the Command Center because it is large and stationary so you are fairly likely for the targeted missile to get within the inner splash radius to it to not have to randomly pick from its full queue. Similarly, the corsair, when it doesn't miss with 1/256 chance, will land its "missile" directly on the unit and so does not have to pick randomly from its full queue. We can make one more prediction as a result of this understanding which firebathero's video does not show, which is that the valk shouldn't ALWAYS kill 8 interceptors per volley when attack moving into the group of interceptors, which should occur if 1) a missile finds no interceptors within the outer splash radius (rare) or 2) two missiles overkill the same interceptor (rare). I imagine we'd blow his mind if we told him a valk missile can do > 100% damage sometimes. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On May 19 2021 21:46 StRyKeR wrote:3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage. Miss chance only applies to ranged ground attacks (and even for ground attacks it might be just sloppy coding rather than an intended mechanic). Corsairs always hit. The occasional Interceptor kill is from Interceptors that actually were within the 100% splash area when the attack hit. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On May 14 2021 20:25 GGmano wrote: As far as i know Valkyries use center splash dmg so it definately matters where the missiles hit.. like nuke ,archon and tank splash center splash does 100% to the inner circle and (not fully sure on the lesser circles but i think its) second circle 75%or50% and outta circle is 50%or25%.. the circle diameter on the different center splash types variate, the nuke has the largest circle area Splash radii work different for air units. Read the thread. It is all explained in here, all the way down to the code level. On May 15 2021 17:53 ZOrb_ wrote: When you patrol click 'behind' the Valkyrie, you are basically giving it 1 of 2 possible orders: Turn CLOCKWISE and retreat, or turn COUNTERCLOCKWISE and retreat. By clicking directly behind, the Valkyrie will choose to turn towards the shortest path. If your Valkyrie is facing north and you click behind and slightly to the right, it will turn clockwise, slightly left and it will turn counterclockwise. When you click exactly behind, you are basically leaving it up to chance whether it will turn right or left. I will explain this further in my Valkyrie practice and demo maps. I should be done in about a week and I will post them here. All air micro is basically Chinese triangles… | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1756 Posts
On May 20 2021 22:26 Freakling wrote: Miss chance only applies to ranged ground attacks (and even for ground attacks it might be just sloppy coding rather than an intended mechanic). Corsairs always hit. The occasional Interceptor kill is from Interceptors that actually were within the 100% splash area when the attack hit. That's what I thought, but firebathero slows down the replay and zooms in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYEr34dzfE&t=430s. The corsair clearly misses the CC, so it must be the case that air units can miss. Also, your understanding of air splash is incorrect here. If you assume the corsair never misses, then it CANNOT deal damage to any interceptor because its target is the CC and the full queue is populated with ONLY the original target if it is within the inner splash radius, which must be the case if the corsair does not miss since the CC is stationary. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1534 Posts
On May 21 2021 01:10 StRyKeR wrote: That's what I thought, but firebathero slows down the replay and zooms in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYEr34dzfE&t=430s. The corsair clearly misses the CC, so it must be the case that air units can miss. Also, your understanding of air splash is incorrect here. If you assume the corsair never misses, then it CANNOT deal damage to any interceptor because its target is the CC and the full queue is populated with ONLY the original target if it is within the inner splash radius, which must be the case if the corsair does not miss since the CC is stationary. Anti-air attacks definitely have no miss chance. Since air units are not influenced by terrain levels miss chances are not applied when they are attacked. I suspect the reason for the target switch may be the difference between the CC position (centre of the CC) and the hit position of the attack which is far enough offset to put the CC outside the inner splash radius. EDIT: Although looking at the distance function, as long as the weapon sprite is within the bounding box of the unit it should still be the primary target: int unit_distance_to(const unit_t* u, xy pos) const {So there must be something else going on entirely. Maybe lifted buildings don't have a bounding box… EDIT: Nevermind, according to in-game testing miss chance seems to apply to air splash attacks, but not to single target air attacks. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
https://ufile.io/j7azbhu3 Corsair vs CC. Time 1:41 - 1:42. Miss is a hit. https://ufile.io/25dj506u vs scourge. Takes full damage also even though its a miss (Base 20 dmg, 10 dmg vs scourge. Took 10 dmg on miss) | ||
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