Hi guys Recently got back into watching StarCraft thanks to ASL and KSL, and now it's time to get back to laddering. I'm really rusty, so I aim to start with most standard game plans and work on macro.
Now I'm having trouble with the buids - the ones on Liquipedia seem fine, but a bit outdated? I'm looking for some modern Terrran builds, that involve fast expanding. But I need them quite detailed, as I consider myself a noob nowadays.
Could you point me in right direction? One build per matchup should suffice for now. Thanks!
On May 05 2020 06:39 knyh wrote: Hi guys Recently got back into watching StarCraft thanks to ASL and KSL, and now it's time to get back to laddering. I'm really rusty, so I aim to start with most standard game plans and work on macro.
Now I'm having trouble with the buids - the ones on Liquipedia seem fine, but a bit outdated? I'm looking for some modern Terrran builds, that involve fast expanding. But I need them quite detailed, as I consider myself a noob nowadays.
Could you point me in right direction? One build per matchup should suffice for now. Thanks!
Almost any build on Liquipedia done well will get you far on ladder. Execution, as well as reacting appropriately to what your opponent is doing, is more important than any minute differences between various initial build orders. The biggest issue you may encounter is actually that your opponents don't follow recognizable build orders (depending on your level). Also, you will get rushed quite a lot, which you may have difficulty with initially just because you are opting for FE openings.
With that in mind, I believe that Rax FE in TvZ is still a good choice:
In TvP I'd again recommend Rax FE if you want a really early expansion. Keep in mind Protoss will be tempted to do a ton of different flavors of bullshit in response to this:
There are other options for TvP, such as Bunker expand and Mine expand. Can't seem to find builds for those but maybe you can ask around on Discord or search and have better luck.
One of my favorites is the 10/10 Strong FD; you still get a relatively early expansion but you also apply pressure and can sometimes outright kill the Protoss's (likely) expansion:
I don't know what the fashion is these days in TvP, but back in 2011, when I used to ladder on ICCUP as a D+ terran player, I lost countless games just outright by trying to make 1 Rax FE work and losing to early dragoon pushes. The early economic advantage of the 1 rax FE almost never translated anyway, due to my bad macro. It just felt like a huge waste of time doing a high risk, low reward (at D+ level) opening build. Of course it's my problem and not the build's. I don't know what level OP is, but the lower the level you are, it's probably the best to play safer, as minute economic advantage won't make that big of a difference at lower level. Just my 2 cents.
Anyone who recommends 1 Rax FE in TvP to a beginner probably doesn't play Terran. The meta right now is to go for a bunker expand with a factory, but you need good micro vs early zealots. FD is a bit safer but less economical so I would recommend that.
As others have said, rax FE is really bad in TvP for beginners. I would strongly suggest siege FE into 6fact if you are below C rank, and 11/11 FD if you are below B rank (I find strong FD a bit of a gimmick, putting you behind vs. aggressive play, (e.g. 2 gate) which I would think is very common on lower levels. It is a good build though of course.)
Siege FE with a wall (https://broodwall.com/) will be safe against most bullshit you'll encounter on ladder at low ranks, and you'll learn the concept of a timing push (push out with lots of units just when protoss's third base finishes), which is a very important concept in TvP, much of the matchup revolves around it.
Also, you'll learn to macro on 2 bases, which is also very important, to constantly keep producing units. A good hotkey setup also helps there, just spam 3t4t5v6v7v8v or 3t4t5vv6vv7vv8vv. (Vultures produce faster than tanks).
On May 05 2020 22:06 Cryoc wrote: Anyone who recommends 1 Rax FE in TvP to a beginner probably doesn't play Terran. The meta right now is to go for a bunker expand with a factory, but you need good micro vs early zealots. FD is a bit safer but less economical so I would recommend that.
He requested fast expand builds specifically; I mentioned that the most likely issue he will face is rushing; and I suggested Bunker expand as well as 10/10 FD as alternatives. Not sure what more I could have done without just telling them "No, don't go FE in TvP" and assume that they are garbage.
I specifically intend to work on FE builds, that's my jam. I'm not a total beginner, I do know some micro and macro, I'm just still rusty after a loooong break.
So, for TvZ I guess the standard 1 Rax FE, although maybe you saw somewhere the new goliath into bio openers? Or valks into bio? I saw those builds in ASL9, used specifically by Sorry and Flash, and they seem really cool; I get the idea behind them, but it would be much easier to see a typical build order. I hate running around after mutas with marines :D
For TvP 1 Fact FE or 1 Rax FE - but somebody mentioned bunker expand. What's that? Is that some variation of 1 Rax FE? I'd love to see build order as well.
For TvT... I'll just do whatever FE, at low level it shouldn't matter that much.
Not sure if I ever read a guide/detailed explanation on it, but another rather safe, versatile FE that was/is quite common was a sort of FD with just two marines (more only if needed).
On the economical side, building only two marines (instead of going right away for the 4 of a normal FD) means that you have the option to build an earlier CC, if you don't scout imminent danger. The CC can be build on top of the ramp, and more marines can be added if need be to push down the ramp. Regarding safety, two marines can hold the ramp against an early goon (mb bring an SCV) and buy time for more marines, can be put into a quick emergency-bunker. They can be used for scouting/tanking later on, and they're handy as a little mobile anti-air.
On May 06 2020 07:28 knyh wrote: Thanks for all the input guys!
I specifically intend to work on FE builds, that's my jam. I'm not a total beginner, I do know some micro and macro, I'm just still rusty after a loooong break.
So, for TvZ I guess the standard 1 Rax FE, although maybe you saw somewhere the new goliath into bio openers? Or valks into bio? I saw those builds in ASL9, used specifically by Sorry and Flash, and they seem really cool; I get the idea behind them, but it would be much easier to see a typical build order. I hate running around after mutas with marines :D
For TvP 1 Fact FE or 1 Rax FE - but somebody mentioned bunker expand. What's that? Is that some variation of 1 Rax FE? I'd love to see build order as well.
For TvT... I'll just do whatever FE, at low level it shouldn't matter that much.
Because those builds are new as you said, I am not sure if anyone has gone through the VODs or reps to write them down. However, it is the perfect time in 2020 during online-only events for you to watch a VOD at .25x speed and do it yourself then share it here, since you have something so specific in mind
Bunker expand is a variation of a Factory expand. Instead of building many marines to be able to get your natural you get only few marines and a bunker to get an earlier expansion than FD but you can still punish 12 Nexus builds which Rax FE builds cannot do. The opening goes like this: 9 Depot 11 Rax 12 Refinery 13 Scout 15 or 16 Depot 16 Factory (2 SCV off gas) 17 Marine 20 Bunker at your natural 19 Marine @100% Factory, add machine shop (put SCVs back on gas) 22 CC at your natural 23 Depot 23 Tank Depending on what you scout you should adjust you build. If you see early zealots pressure, make more marines before you get your CC. If you see more than 1 gate, you should probably get siege mode first, otherwise you can also get mines and vultures instead of more tanks.
I've been thinking about making some videos about builds I'm using on the ladder! This is the first one on TvZ. I mess up the build in several places but if you just follow the google doc, it matches the ASL game: www.youtube.com
Here is a video of a ladder replay me trying the build: www.youtube.com
Here is a link to my google spreadsheet of builds I'm practicing right now: docs.google.com
Info is a bit scattered across the article, as it's also an interview and comparison of Flash's and Ssak's 1-1-1.
Don't forget to also check out the first post after the article by lemmata, for further information on how to counter a few things that Zerg might do vs this build.
I'm not 100% sure what changed after said ASL-match vs EffOrt. The build just requires perfect multitasking and adaptability, you're walking on a razor's edge against aggressive builds like speedling, hydra, 2hatch-muta. Also your scouting has to be on top.
EPT
1 Rax FE (vs. Zerg)
