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Hello! I am trying to learn Protoss because I enjoy their wide array of builds they can employ and styles of play. However, before I get into all those advanced builds, a veteran told me to learn the standard build orders for each match-up and focus on macro and standard play. He said that this would be better than simply learning all-in builds or advanced builds.
I agree but I do not know which BO is the standard for each match-up. I am not sure if I should go Neo Bisu build or the +1 Speedlot. I am not sure if opening dragoon range vs T is the best way to learn this race.
Could someone please push me in the right direction so that I can find a BO that would allow me to play standard and as I get better and better, I can tweak and adjust? I want to make sure that the BO I learn is something that helps my play and helps me get better, not just stagnate.
Thank you!
I am looking for a BO for PvP, PvZ, and PvT.
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Japan11286 Posts
PvZ: Neo Bisu build
Reason: If you want to practice midgame to lategame PvZ, this build should be good. It's safe against most hydra busts plays. It has an early, albeit small attack. It is versatile in its responses after the information you get with the first push so you can practice more than one course without dying inevitably.
PvT: 2-Gateway Dragoon Expo
Reason: 1 or 3-Dragoon Range Expo can be tough to defend against 2-Factory openings so the safe route would be to go with 2 gates, pump some goons while expanding. I can't remember if you need to get range here though.
PvP: 2-Gateway Robo
Reason: Probably the most all-around build in PvP. You can expand, go reaver first, go observer, go with a third gateway, go with a DT drop. Depends on what you want really. This can give you hard time versus zealot heavy openings though but that's the thing with PvP.
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Well I don't play protoss but I think range is a priority when you are not going fast robo/citadel in pvt/pvp.
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For PvT you can try:
10 Gate 12 Gas 13 Core
15 Pylon
@100 percent Core Goon then Range
21 Gate
24 Pylon
~30 @400 mins expand
Benchmark: 4:30 4 goons out
Robo after expansion, then keep pumping goons and get observer
This is a pretty safe opening. 2 fact can still be annoying, but you can get a reaver to be completely safe/ counter his undefended base. Midgame you can opt for passive 3rd/Arb -> 4th/5th if you scout him getting a fast third. If you scout a fast 2 base attack (5-6 facts) you can just stay on 2 base w/ 8 gateway speed zeals (a reaver would be helpful as well for attacks earlier than 5 fact).
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Keep in mind that different maps call for different builds. For example, you'll always want to 2 gate Zealot into expand on Blue Storm in PvP. You can open 10 Gate, 11 gas, 13 Core, 15 Gate, 15 Pylon, Range, mass Goon PvT on maps like Medusa. However, these builds aren't as good on maps like Fighting Spirit. Given that FS is just about all anyone plays anymore, I'm gonna assume that's what you're wanting builds on. It sounds like you understand concepts so I assume you know basic abbreviations, like how FD = Fake Double.
I'm not sure what the "Neo Bisu" build is, I'm assuming a lot of Corsairs with fast DT's. I personally still open +1 speedlot, as it gets you map control, plus it can kill sloppy Zergs, while setting you up nicely for a third base. After my FE, I do Stargate -> +1 weapons -> Citadel -> Gateway -> Leg Speed, and mass Zealots out of those two Gates. It's best to be on two gas; having only one Probe on the gas at your natural should be fine, since it's not too gas intensive of a build, but having that extra Probe mining gas allows you to get your Corsair/+1 Weapons/Citadel/Leg speed just a little bit faster. Of course, this is with the caveat that the Zerg has to be on 3 bases. PvZ is a reactionary matchup - if the Zerg is sticking on two bases, then you need to be scouting to see if he's going Hydra, Lurker, or Muta. A gas at the natural indicates Lurker or Muta, while only having a gas in the main means Hydra. Of course, the Zerg can also take a third and then try to Ling or Hydra all-in you, so you need to be actively scouting. This is stuff you'll get used to with experience, but it can be a pain for new players
For PvT, like others have said you should definitely get Range early in PvT. The opening f10eqq gave you is good. The ultra safe PvT build is 2 Gate Robo on one base. This keeps you safe from just about any attack, but if the Terran opens 1 Fact CC, then they have a little economical advantage. Of course, you can expand off of one Gateway, like after 3 Dragoons, but if the Terran 2 Facts you then you're in trouble. Generally the greedier you play, the better your micro needs to be to hold off attacks. Scouting is important here - if you can get into the T's main and see how many SCV's they have on gas after they build their Factory, then you will have a good idea of what they're doing. If they keep all 3 SCV's on gas, then they're either just bad or they're doing a really tech/unit heavy build, like a 2 Fact or a 1 Fact Starport. If they keep 1 SCV on gas, then they're probably doing a Siege expand or FD. It's also good to keep tabs on their Marine count. More Marines usually means more aggression.
For PvP, c3berus's build is fine. You can go Gate Gate Robo or Gate Robo Gate depending on how aggressive you want to be. Generally you want to get your Robo faster if you're scared of DT's. Like he said, this build order can go into almost anything. You can also try the DT expand build, where you get DT's off of one or 2 Gates while expanding behind it with Cannons for defense. This can get you some easy wins but also sets you up for a strong midgame, provided you can hold off any attacks.
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Neo Bisu Build You can also refer to progamer PvZ vods (or fpvods) since this is what they use most of the time (especially Bisu)
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1 Gate tech into DT or Reaver's all day long.
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wow, you guys rock. Thanks for helping me out in getting started. It confirmed a lot of what I was doing, and it is nice to know I wasn't completely off. But the best part is the explanations behind the openers you gave me. I really appreciate that. Helps me understand so that I can adjust according to each game.
Thanks c3rberus, I am going to start opening 2 gate goon expo from now on. I've been opening only 1 gate so far but I like your aggressive version.
f10eqq, thanks for that benchmark and the explanation regarding the transition. 1. Could I ask what you guys mean by 2 Fac can be annoying? What is dangerous about a Terran opening 2 fac? And you are saying that to counter 2 fac, I should reaver drop his undefended expo, correct?
Goshox, yup FS! Sorry, should have mentioned that. It seems like it's what Koreans play. Python and FS. Sometimes I see Circuit Breaker. But I will be practicing primarily on FS. I loved your explanation regarding your +1 Speedlot build. It makes it easier to see how it would play out. 2. What do you do when Zerg plays sim city and just turtles and you cannot break them. How does toss get more ahead in this situation without risking too much?
c3rberus, the +1 Sair/DT build sounds really fun. Lots of sairs to kill ovies and delay any mid game pushes. I'm going to try this one for sure! 3. How would the FE opener be adjusted for +1Sair/DT? I'm thinking:
8 Pylon
12 Forge
13 Nex
13 Cannon
14 Gate
14 Gas
Cyber
Citadel
Star
Archives
+1 Air
+1 Ground
Make DT
Robo->Obs
I see that some builds open 10 forge or do 14 nex. It all depends on how aggressive the Z is right? I get why you would want a forge earlier (fast lings), but what about the Nexus. 4. Why delay the nexus to 15 or 14 when you could have it at 13 and start mining from your 2nd expo sooner?
For PvP, it seems similar to SC2. Kinda like a dice roll =) Oh joy! I think I will go obs first to play it safe and macro up.
Sorry for all the questions. 5. I got one more that has been bothering me. Do we get plasma shields? Or is that a complete waste? 6. And we never make scouts right? Don't make scouts unless they go Battlecruiser or Guardians?
Played about 12 games on fish so far. No win yet...but I feel like I am getting close~
7. I have good openers for PvT and PvP, but nothing solid for PvP. Could I get your 2 Gate Robo opener?
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3. Usually people open Star->citadel for sair/dt (faster dts shouldn't be able to do much without sair support). Get a fast second gas (before core finishes) and the rest depends on what zerg is doing. Usually you don't need robo for obs before you have 4 gates(even against lurker first, lurker all-ins are defended with cannons) , but you can use it for dt drop if you like to get it that early anyway
4. The advantage of later Nexus is that you don't cut probes, so you have more minerals early on for cannons/zealots/tech. But i think you can play around with Nexus timings and see what you prefer.
5. Early/mid game shields cost too much and are not that useful (every unit deals full damage on them: vulture/tank/hydra/dragoon) Late game you can get them (especially in PvZ they help against cracklings, and you are usually going to have more archons)
6. Yeah scouts are bad but there is always THE STOVE
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everyone else posted good build orders, but you could always try checking out broodwar's liquipedia to look through builds/strategy topics to your heart's content: there's a lot of awesome info there! Also, you could try watching gosu protosses on afreeca or check vods here on korhal
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Japan11286 Posts
Standard FFE is really dependent on what you see or what you don't see. If you see 12 hatch on first scout, you go 12/13 nexus for example. Or in case of aggressive ling builds, you get forge + cannons first or sometimes even a gateway. Anyway, the point is to not die to lings while getting a sound eco.
So after FFE, you get
Gas
Core
Gas in nat just after core
Stargate
+1 ground
Citadel
Gateway
Sairs @100% stargate
+1 air weapons
Archives @100% citadel
Pump some DTs and poke the zerg defense.
I'm not an expert on this build so there will surely be mistakes. The timings are pretty much based on when you can afford the structure so try to practice getting the probe and zealot production right first (i think emphasis goes to teching first then zeal production.)
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Thanks ortseam for showing me that stove bo. Golden. I bet I would die to that.
C3rberus thanks for the run down of the bo. The 2nd gas you and ort told me to get makes sense in the reasoning behind it since dts are gas intensive. But the first gas in the ffe, can you explain the reasoning of it's timing. Does getting it right away as u put down the first gate time it perfectly with the star and sair? Or could I delay it until I drop my cyber?
Please explain the timing of the first gas since I feel like it's too early and I have too much gas sometimes.
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i think the best way to learn would be to just try them both out, scbw is a lot less rigid in the sense that there's a "standard" build even in toss vs toss; a lot of it is preference and strength based depending on what kind of player you are and what map you're playing on. just going on a hunch here since i'm not protoss, 2 gate reaver is a more aggressive build so it would be a great build to try to build up your game sense and economic timings.
3 gate robo is a lot more safe and passive, which will lead to helping you improve your macro and defensive game
both are viable, just try whichever one seems cooler to you
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http://bwreplays.com/ttlxe <----is this the best play to upload replays and find them now?
After losing 15 games on iccup, 10 on fish, and just as much on Shield Battery, I finally won my FIRST game as TOSS! PvT!!! It was a legit chobo vs chobo battle and I kept trading armies until he couldn't take any more bases.
I went DT on him and did some damage; first time using DT...damn it feels dirty <3. I am sure I would have lost if he was smarter and took his 3rd quicker, but he didn't for some reason. He stayed on 2 base for a long long time.
If you guys don't mind taking a quick look at the game, I would appreciate some tips and pointers on what I did wrong and how I could do better. Also, what if he did take his 3rd and had siege tanks to protect it? How can I possibly break that 3rd? Go for arbiter drops? I should have gone for Storm drops but I kinda got flustered. I get tunnel vision when I play and I couldn't bring myself to go beyond gateway tech...=P
I know that I could have killed him earlier, but I have lost over 30 games without a win, so I made sure I won by securing more bases and just playing it safe.
For the PvP build order, I think I will try 2 gate reaver. C3rberus, that is the one you suggested right? Thanks man! Oh and shoutout to f10eqq for teaching me the PvT BO opener. I didn't really get enough goons out but I did what you said and pumped obs like mad. I had them everywhere.
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8 minute unneeded transfer to expo, you left your main under saturated and gimped your eco
idle probes at nexuses throughout the game
dt drop at 10 min is a waste of money, he will have all kinds of detection and mines. needs to be way earlier or not at all, terrans turtle HARDCORE in tvp and the point of a drop is to spread and enemy apart or strike a weak point. you were attack a strongpoint (his main) [edit] also the point is to hit a timing too, so you need to look at standard terran builds and think "hmm, when is terran giving up detection in favor of more scvs or tanks" and have your drop hit then to punish his build's greed
when you slaughtered his firts push (killed a TON of tanks, good job) you are WAY ahead, free to double expand and work towards arbiters while sustaining contain.
after you killed his push you kept aggressing into his natural, which maybe wasn't the right move, but it worked. with positioning like that you should have checked 6' for expo since you have strong positioning to contest it
no point retreating, terrans can only function in tvp if they have room to push. whenever they push they should have to pay for it, either by outplaying you or losing units.
taking the 7' as a base is kinda unneeded risk, it's really open to just getting cut off by mines and vultures and then tank drops.. kinda a free kill if terran wanted to kill it. you should have just taken 12 and the natural of 11 imo because they're easier to defend
as a protoss, you need to attack like a zerg when you're playing pvt. you need to attack from multiple angles or not at all because it spreads out the need for mine fields as well as the tank splash damage (as well as EMPs when the terran gets higher tech)
you just have a general lack of scouting during the mid to late game with regard to what he's doing, dont be afraid to use observers and probes to get a general sense of what the terran is thinking
and most importantly, macro macro macro, upgrades, arbiters too.
you have pretty strong mechanics but korean terrans will out muscle you unless you play perfectly mechanically, so never undervalue going back to the basics
again, this is all from a zerg player so i defer strategically to terrans and toss, but mechanics and macro trump everything else
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On September 20 2016 02:38 Endymion wrote:
8 minute unneeded transfer to expo, you left your main under saturated and gimped your eco
idle probes at nexuses throughout the game
dt drop at 10 min is a waste of money, he will have all kinds of detection and mines. needs to be way earlier or not at all, terrans turtle HARDCORE in tvp and the point of a drop is to spread and enemy apart or strike a weak point. you were attack a strongpoint (his main) [edit] also the point is to hit a timing too, so you need to look at standard terran builds and think "hmm, when is terran giving up detection in favor of more scvs or tanks" and have your drop hit then to punish his build's greed
when you slaughtered his firts push (killed a TON of tanks, good job) you are WAY ahead, free to double expand and work towards arbiters while sustaining contain.
after you killed his push you kept aggressing into his natural, which maybe wasn't the right move, but it worked. with positioning like that you should have checked 6' for expo since you have strong positioning to contest it
no point retreating, terrans can only function in tvp if they have room to push. whenever they push they should have to pay for it, either by outplaying you or losing units.
taking the 7' as a base is kinda unneeded risk, it's really open to just getting cut off by mines and vultures and then tank drops.. kinda a free kill if terran wanted to kill it. you should have just taken 12 and the natural of 11 imo because they're easier to defend
as a protoss, you need to attack like a zerg when you're playing pvt. you need to attack from multiple angles or not at all because it spreads out the need for mine fields as well as the tank splash damage (as well as EMPs when the terran gets higher tech)
you just have a general lack of scouting during the mid to late game with regard to what he's doing, dont be afraid to use observers and probes to get a general sense of what the terran is thinking
and most importantly, macro macro macro, upgrades, arbiters too.
you have pretty strong mechanics but korean terrans will out muscle you unless you play perfectly mechanically, so never undervalue going back to the basics
again, this is all from a zerg player so i defer strategically to terrans and toss, but mechanics and macro trump everything else
dude thanks for taking the time to write this. it helps immensely. good to hear from vets. yeah this game is really unforgiving, I am not so good at micro so I will keep practicing. I feel like the koreans run around me when it comes to micro.
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1. Your 2nd pylon was really delayed, which delayed your first goon. Make sure you don't get supply blocked early on, to maintain constant probe/unit production.
2. You should block your ramp with your zealot if you're not being aggressive with it(which is better I think), the scv could have gone into the main and get a full scout (you don't want that, even if you're not opening dts)
3. I don't know if your 3rd/4th were supposed to be hidden expos, but you generally want to get close expos (not towards the Terran though, for example in these positions 12 would be easier to defend
4. Try poking more with your observers in his base, you were playing blind for the most part
5. 3rd can't save Terran if you get complete map control, just get a ton of bases and recall/carrier him to death
( Just general stuff, protoss players will have more to say)
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On September 20 2016 12:23 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2016 02:38 Endymion wrote:
8 minute unneeded transfer to expo, you left your main under saturated and gimped your eco
idle probes at nexuses throughout the game
dt drop at 10 min is a waste of money, he will have all kinds of detection and mines. needs to be way earlier or not at all, terrans turtle HARDCORE in tvp and the point of a drop is to spread and enemy apart or strike a weak point. you were attack a strongpoint (his main) [edit] also the point is to hit a timing too, so you need to look at standard terran builds and think "hmm, when is terran giving up detection in favor of more scvs or tanks" and have your drop hit then to punish his build's greed
when you slaughtered his firts push (killed a TON of tanks, good job) you are WAY ahead, free to double expand and work towards arbiters while sustaining contain.
after you killed his push you kept aggressing into his natural, which maybe wasn't the right move, but it worked. with positioning like that you should have checked 6' for expo since you have strong positioning to contest it
no point retreating, terrans can only function in tvp if they have room to push. whenever they push they should have to pay for it, either by outplaying you or losing units.
taking the 7' as a base is kinda unneeded risk, it's really open to just getting cut off by mines and vultures and then tank drops.. kinda a free kill if terran wanted to kill it. you should have just taken 12 and the natural of 11 imo because they're easier to defend
as a protoss, you need to attack like a zerg when you're playing pvt. you need to attack from multiple angles or not at all because it spreads out the need for mine fields as well as the tank splash damage (as well as EMPs when the terran gets higher tech)
you just have a general lack of scouting during the mid to late game with regard to what he's doing, dont be afraid to use observers and probes to get a general sense of what the terran is thinking
and most importantly, macro macro macro, upgrades, arbiters too.
you have pretty strong mechanics but korean terrans will out muscle you unless you play perfectly mechanically, so never undervalue going back to the basics
again, this is all from a zerg player so i defer strategically to terrans and toss, but mechanics and macro trump everything else dude thanks for taking the time to write this. it helps immensely. good to hear from vets. yeah this game is really unforgiving, I am not so good at micro so I will keep practicing. I feel like the koreans run around me when it comes to micro.
well yeah their micro is great too, personally i'm more scared of the fact that even if i out micro them there's sure to be more units coming after, whereas with other foreigners i can expect their macro to slip
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EPT
Bisu
