EPTPVP - Upgrading Reaver Damage
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JimBobRay
128 Posts
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Cpt Obvious
Germany3073 Posts
Reavers aren't that overused in PvZ anyway, and i can't think of any zerg unit that would die from one upgraded shot but wouldn't if you don't make the upgrade. maybe defiler, but would that be worth it? In PvT reavers are seldomly used for more than drops, in which case you don't need the upgrade either. In PvP reavers are both used for drops and for timing attacks/bigger battles. in both cases i don't see any obvious reason for making the attack upgrade. i would instead rather the "more scarabs" upgrade if i had any spare resources, because you don't have to micro your reavers that heavily then, especially when they are used as a defensive unit. (more scarabs per reaver = less times you need to rebuild). *maybe* it helps a *little* bit in *very* close battles where both sides have reavers and almost equal amounts of dragoons. but i guess many other factors like dragoon micro/focus firing and positioning outweigh that by far. and on a pro level the upgrade is too costy to be worth it. in conclusion i don't really know why that upgrade even exists :O -- question was answered, thanks. doesn't matter when and where exactly :D this is not SC trivia  -- | ||
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On February 24 2007 18:11 fusionsdf wrote: to cpt: it was reach in wwi almost certain it was blizzcon. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On February 24 2007 18:09 yubee wrote: i believe reavers can one-shot lurkers in PvZ before they get an armor upgrade. whether it's useful, since carapace is upgraded relatively soon anyway... i guess is for someone better to say. nope! They have like 1 hpt left or soemthing haha :p Maybe you group a scout w/ him hmm interesting now! | ||
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nemY
United States3119 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
possible. I may have got my blizzard events mixed up | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
Lurkers (even with no armor upgrades) survive with 1 HP due to inherent armor. Goliaths (even with no armor uprgrades) survive with 1 HP due to inherent armor. Zealots are always 2HKO (although...now you can kill them with one 50% splash combined with one full damage hit). Dragoons are always 2HKO (though again: see above about the splash+full hit...except now it depends what upgrades they have). Reavers...see Dragoons Tanks...see Zealots Archons go from 4HKO to 3HKO Dark Archons go from 3HKO to 2HKO Ultralisks go from 5HKO to 4HKO Dark Templar go from 2HKO to 1HKO Photon Cannons go from 2-3HKO (depending on shield upgrade) to 2HKO Eggs go from 3HKO to 2HKO (mmmm...omlets) Everything else dies in one hit. HOWEVER, some stuff can survive 50% splash if you don't upgrade, but die to 50% splash if you do upgrade (SCVs, for instance). | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
you know why? cus of the splash dmg.. even if it's same w/ or w/o upgrade vs a unit, it's different when there's a group of those units | ||
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JimBobRay
128 Posts
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mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
On February 24 2007 18:19 nemY wrote: i do it in pvz but never pvp or pvt. Not really sure why i do it now though perhaps for the dmg benefit Well, why else would you do it? It IS a DAMAGE upgrade.  | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On February 24 2007 19:36 mikeymoo wrote: Well, why else would you do it? It IS a DAMAGE upgrade. Trying to maximize your score at the end of the game by burning unspent minerals? >_> <_< | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
it helps multitask pvp when you can quickly look for drop spots or head back to army, helps pvt in battles, and pvz too for mobility second would be reaver damage over scarab capacity because if you're doing something like reaver/sair pvz the splash is really nice other than that i don't really see it being helpful  though 1-shotting scvs with 50% splash is amusing nice analysis metroid | ||
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KwarK
United States43077 Posts
If you want I'll PvP you. I've always considered myself a mean reaver user in PvP. | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
On February 24 2007 21:05 Kwark wrote: I always upgrade damage if I'm going to use a reaver based strategy. Unless you've seen 4 damage upgraded reavers in the field you won't understand. If you're just using them for harass then it's obviously not a wise move. But if your ground army has reavers in support you will notice the difference. I generally go reaver grade over shuttle speed. You must remember it's not just reavers there so while it doesn't change the number of hits it takes for a reaver to kill something it still produces much faster kills. If you want I'll PvP you. I've always considered myself a mean reaver user in PvP. i will second this man's statement, however i will make the distinction that i would only get this upgrade after shuttle speed in PvP, and that's only if i'm going dual robo. | ||
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Remmargorp
United States28 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On February 24 2007 20:41 Locked wrote: when getting upgrades from bay i almost always prioritize shuttle speed over reaver damage it helps multitask pvp when you can quickly look for drop spots or head back to army, helps pvt in battles, and pvz too for mobility second would be reaver damage over scarab capacity because if you're doing something like reaver/sair pvz the splash is really nice other than that i don't really see it being helpful though 1-shotting scvs with 50% splash is amusing nice analysis metroid What are you talking about - "nice analysis metroid"? That was an EXCELLENT analysis ^_^ But IMO I would make 2 Reavers instead of wasting my vespene on upgrading this, especially in PvZ. What's the point of making your Reaver do extra damage if it dies before it's able to fire on anything? I'm sorry - it's just I played a horrible game today (PvZ, I went Reaver/Corsairs, and the guy ended up making hordes of Queens just to Spawn Broodling all my Reavers ... then he sends a horde of lurklings vs my 5-6 Reavers T_T) | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + It also helps to actually try something before asking questions about it | ||
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KwarK
United States43077 Posts
On February 25 2007 11:21 Equinox_kr wrote: What are you talking about - "nice analysis metroid"? That was an EXCELLENT analysis ^_^ But IMO I would make 2 Reavers instead of wasting my vespene on upgrading this, especially in PvZ. What's the point of making your Reaver do extra damage if it dies before it's able to fire on anything? I'm sorry - it's just I played a horrible game today (PvZ, I went Reaver/Corsairs, and the guy ended up making hordes of Queens just to Spawn Broodling all my Reavers ... then he sends a horde of lurklings vs my 5-6 Reavers T_T) Spawn broodling doesn't affect reavers. Obviously you don't get damage if you're only using 1 or 2 reavers as a harassing force. Pointless in any matchup. But if you're using 4 or 5 as a part of your main army, which is definitely a viable move in pvp and pvz, you definitely want damage. I'd get it over speed too because the speed is for harass, which isn't useful with the main army, and may actually get them killed as the shuttles zoom forwards ahead of the main force. You will really notice that extra 25 splash damage. | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
However there are times I will go for it. Reavers can be effective if you plan on playing agressive and never leting him get his feet planted. However if he does then you will be hard pressed to take him out with some sort of 2 robo goon reaver or whatever. I miss the old days when people used to fly around with speed shuttles, picking off goons and probes for the first 15 mins of the game. Now its all turtle/macro sigh. Unfortunatly that works better. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On February 25 2007 11:39 oshibori_probe wrote: If you have money after shuttle speed, get dammage, when u think about it, its going to be alot more usefull than 5 more scarabs as reavers need to be picked up, moved around alot. When u drop with damage upgrade, all the scvs/probes/drones that would have just been at 1/2 health die instead, thats alot, when u have 3 or 4 that dammage adds up. Nono, it's only SCVs that can survive the 50% splash without upgrade. Basically... Nothing gets killed by the 25% splash. Not even Zerglings. Anything with less than 50 HP gets killed by the 50% splash either way. Anything with more than 62 HP survives the 50% splash either way. So the full list of units who survive 50% splash without upgrade, and die to 50% splash with upgrade are...Firebats, Medics, SCVs, and Infested Terrans. (So...pretty much just SCVs). | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Cpt Obvious
Germany3073 Posts
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SteelString
446 Posts
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itemlock
United States256 Posts
On February 25 2007 11:21 Equinox_kr wrote: I'm sorry - it's just I played a horrible game today (PvZ, I went Reaver/Corsairs, and the guy ended up making hordes of Queens just to Spawn Broodling all my Reavers ... then he sends a horde of lurklings vs my 5-6 Reavers T_T) Why does this seem strange to me? | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On February 25 2007 14:27 Cpt Obvious wrote: wait. 25% splash has more range than mutalisks? O_ö The diameter--as in the distance from the very edge of the 25% splash to the opposite edge on the exact other side of the explosion--is wider than Mute range is long. The radius from the center of the explosion to the edge of the 25% will be half that, of course. Incidentally, where can I look up splash radius numbers? I've never seen them listed before.... | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
PvP it's of less use, because most of the time you will switch to Templars anyway and in many cases stop to use Reavers to accompany you army. However if you continue using them, especially if you use like 4 or 6 then the upgrade is definitely worth it. | ||
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J_RIGGED
United States10 Posts
On February 24 2007 18:46 metroid composite wrote: Let's see.... Lurkers (even with no armor upgrades) survive with 1 HP due to inherent armor. Goliaths (even with no armor uprgrades) survive with 1 HP due to inherent armor. Zealots are always 2HKO (although...now you can kill them with one 50% splash combined with one full damage hit). Dragoons are always 2HKO (though again: see above about the splash+full hit...except now it depends what upgrades they have). Reavers...see Dragoons Tanks...see Zealots Archons go from 4HKO to 3HKO Dark Archons go from 3HKO to 2HKO Ultralisks go from 5HKO to 4HKO Dark Templar go from 2HKO to 1HKO Photon Cannons go from 2-3HKO (depending on shield upgrade) to 2HKO Eggs go from 3HKO to 2HKO (mmmm...omlets) Everything else dies in one hit. HOWEVER, some stuff can survive 50% splash if you don't upgrade, but die to 50% splash if you do upgrade (SCVs, for instance). well i think killing workers is important and probes would get killed in 50 % damage splash | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On February 25 2007 11:21 Equinox_kr wrote: What are you talking about - "nice analysis metroid"? That was an EXCELLENT analysis ^_^ But IMO I would make 2 Reavers instead of wasting my vespene on upgrading this, especially in PvZ. What's the point of making your Reaver do extra damage if it dies before it's able to fire on anything? I'm sorry - it's just I played a horrible game today (PvZ, I went Reaver/Corsairs, and the guy ended up making hordes of Queens just to Spawn Broodling all my Reavers ... then he sends a horde of lurklings vs my 5-6 Reavers T_T) I will pay you my life savings for that rep. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Anyway, think about it this way: You'd have to upgrade Psi storm if you went templars. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
And reavers with upgrade and cannons hold of zerg attacks pretty good, offensive it's a help aswell. In PvP id skip it becouse of what Carnac said in almost all cases | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On February 25 2007 22:20 Aphelion02 wrote: I will pay you my life savings for that rep. i second that. i think this is kind of like the defiler thread a while back. its the third thing you upgrade, only late game if youve got resources. shut speed and reaver capacity seems more important. | ||
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KwarK
United States43077 Posts
Why would you want that? Anything that is still there after 5x125 isn't going away any time soon. Damage is crucial. | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On February 26 2007 07:53 Kwark wrote: Capacity over damage? Why would you want that? Anything that is still there after 5x125 isn't going away any time soon. Damage is crucial. yea, but wouldnt it be more beneficial late game? when grades are maxxed, ults are out etc. i dont play p a lot, but say in pvp, reav/goon wars, its a bitch having 5 and having to smash r r r rr when youre trying to macro, esp since they dont rebuild real fast. where the hell is FA goddamnit, we need him | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
I've been hearing stuff like "it doesn't change the number of shots to get killed, so screw it". Well, answer me then, why does terran upgrade damage in that case? Hint: no, number of shots to kill goon/zealot (and even probes) does NOT change in this case as well. It's in the splash and multi-unit interaction. For example, you have 1 reaver and goons. Obviously, damage upgrade for reavers saves at least 1 goon shot to kill another goon, therefore, the benefit is there. Noone is gonna give you the exact formula when to get it, but when the game is long and you're using reavers on a large scale it's worth it. For PvZ, damage upgrade is a good thing because it kills hydras in many situations. For example, two reavers shoot a bunch of hydras. Let's take a hydra that takes a 50% splash hit for one reaver and 25% from another. Without damage upgrade it will be 50+25 damage, which leaves the hydra alive with 5 hp left. Bad. With damage upgrade it will be 50+12,5 + 25+6,25 = 93,75 damage which is more than enough to kill that hydra regardless of the armor upgrade amount it has. There are more situations involving second shot and/or more reavers on field. Generally, you will start to notice how more hydras that are far from the actual target will get one-hit KO'ed. So, it's worth it. Also splash weapon upgrade is always good for mixed armies, so it is useful late-game as well. For PvP, you will get to fight mostly goons that have larger collision size than hydras (meaning less units will fit into the splash radius) and their hp value is not that close to reaver's damage. (someone could prove a theorem that any splash weapon upgrade will be the most effective when damage ~= target's hp). By the time you will get enough reavers to justify the upgrade cost, the game will probably transition into templar phase where reavers are not that effective, but if your reaver numbers are for some reason getting high, I say the upgrade is worth it. For PvT, it's not generally what you want to do because of how much reavers get ineffective after 10 minute mark. Yes, it's fun to kill SCV with 50% splash, but staying alive is even funnier, so I'd take shuttle speed first any time. By the time I will have shuttle speed, I would generally prefer making storm drops, not reaver. So, getting that upgrade PvT for me doesn't justify the cost and, even more importantly, time invloved. IMO, it's good PvZ, average PvP and undesireable PvT, but then again, that's just me. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On February 25 2007 17:06 metroid composite wrote: The diameter--as in the distance from the very edge of the 25% splash to the opposite edge on the exact other side of the explosion--is wider than Mute range is long. The radius from the center of the explosion to the edge of the 25% will be half that, of course. Incidentally, where can I look up splash radius numbers? I've never seen them listed before.... You can check them out with DatEdit and the likes. They are all around 1MB or something. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2983 Posts
On February 26 2007 08:03 BluzMan wrote: People always bring the same question with armor upgrade PvT. I've been hearing stuff like "it doesn't change the number of shots to get killed, so screw it". Well, answer me then, why does terran upgrade damage in that case? Hint: no, number of shots to kill goon/zealot (and even probes) does NOT change in this case as well. It's in the splash and multi-unit interaction. For example, you have 1 reaver and goons. Obviously, damage upgrade for reavers saves at least 1 goon shot to kill another goon, therefore, the benefit is there. Noone is gonna give you the exact formula when to get it, but when the game is long and you're using reavers on a large scale it's worth it. For PvZ, damage upgrade is a good thing because it kills hydras in many situations. For example, two reavers shoot a bunch of hydras. Let's take a hydra that takes a 50% splash hit for one reaver and 25% from another. Without damage upgrade it will be 50+25 damage, which leaves the hydra alive with 5 hp left. Bad. With damage upgrade it will be 50+12,5 + 25+6,25 = 93,75 damage which is more than enough to kill that hydra regardless of the armor upgrade amount it has. There are more situations involving second shot and/or more reavers on field. Generally, you will start to notice how more hydras that are far from the actual target will get one-hit KO'ed. So, it's worth it. Also splash weapon upgrade is always good for mixed armies, so it is useful late-game as well. For PvP, you will get to fight mostly goons that have larger collision size than hydras (meaning less units will fit into the splash radius) and their hp value is not that close to reaver's damage. (someone could prove a theorem that any splash weapon upgrade will be the most effective when damage ~= target's hp). By the time you will get enough reavers to justify the upgrade cost, the game will probably transition into templar phase where reavers are not that effective, but if your reaver numbers are for some reason getting high, I say the upgrade is worth it. For PvT, it's not generally what you want to do because of how much reavers get ineffective after 10 minute mark. Yes, it's fun to kill SCV with 50% splash, but staying alive is even funnier, so I'd take shuttle speed first any time. By the time I will have shuttle speed, I would generally prefer making storm drops, not reaver. So, getting that upgrade PvT for me doesn't justify the cost and, even more importantly, time invloved. IMO, it's good PvZ, average PvP and undesireable PvT, but then again, that's just me. Best answer with carnac's one imo, I agree 100% | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On February 25 2007 14:18 lololol wrote: You're looking at it wrong, it doesn't matter how much direct hits kill a unit, because your army is not 100% reavers and they have splash. If you're you're gonna use reavers for something more than an early drop the upgrade is very useful, thats hundreds of splash damage each battle, which allows your goons/zealots to kill the softened targets faster. The diameter of reaver splash is 40/80/120 for 100%/50%/25% damage and for comparison - mutalisk attack range is 96, so the upgrade definitely helps. I've always thought about this, including upgrade disucssions with a mix of units and their respective attacks. Only problem is that it's very difficult to quantify such a thing | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On February 24 2007 17:59 JimBobRay wrote: I have never upgraded reaver damage in PVP because there seems to be no benefit for doing so - most every protoss unit dies to two scarabs upgraded or not, as far as I can tell. Does anyone ever make this upgrade, and if so, what situations call for it? I don't think this is a good way of looking at it. You have more than just reavers doing damage. 25 extra damage (not even counting splash) means 1 less goon hit to kill. | ||
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