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On January 10 2007 10:11 Gandalf wrote:
Also, davidgurt, who is obviously very experience and skilled on fastest, said:
"And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high)."
You dont see him complaining even though he lost. And, if you read carefully, you will see the toss already had another base up by the time his main was half down.
I'm not sure if I'm following you. I agreed with what you said about building in another base if you're being contained.
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On January 10 2007 10:01 davidgurt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 09:49 Gandalf wrote:On January 10 2007 09:10 davidgurt wrote:On January 10 2007 09:05 Gandalf wrote:On January 09 2007 22:05 EscPlan9 wrote:
Say you're protoss. He has many siege tanks, some detection (turrets, comsats, sci vessels, whatever), and wraiths. What do you do? Scouts/Carriers/Corsairs? He can comsat (or otherwise detect your observers), take out your observers, cloak his wraiths, and kill any of your air units easily. How are you going to get templars near his siege tanks when his air support will prevent drops and you obviously can't walk into the tanks? I'm thinking you'd have to do something like hallucinate arbiters (a LOT of hallucinations), send them in, then send in some real arbiters, recall a massive army of zlots/goons/archons and hope for the best. When you have 30+ factories, macro takes a LOT more time as opposed to low money play. It also means macro becomes a bigger factor. Fastest players will NOT have the time to control their army really well during late game, and they're not that inclined to micro hard anyway. Macro does take a lot more time, but when you've hit 250+ APM, it's amazing how much you can do. With that much APM, most of it is on macro, but you should be able to pump from all of your factories/gates in a matter of seconds, giving you enough time to micro. And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high). No matter HOW fast you macro, macroing in fastest WILL take more time than in low maps, and significantly so. A low map game will probably have players with 8-12 facs during late game (sometimes more, sometimes less), whereas a fastest player will have 30-40. If they are equally fast (although low players tend to be faster), the fastest player will need 3-4 times the time to macro. That automatically means the fastest player will have less time to micro. In low map games, the focus in any battle tends to be more on micro, because macro simply takes less time, and because less money and less factories/gates means a weaker ability to recover. The ratio between time spent on micro and macro is drastically altered in fastest. Theres a difference, and it gives the low player more time to micro. A direct conclusion of this is that since low players micro more per game, they are getting a greater amount of practice, and will eventually become better microers than fastest players. I'm not saying that you shouldnt micro late game in fastest. Or even that fastest players cant perform the aforementioned micro feats. But no matter how you look at it, its obvious that late game micro, at least, wont be as good as what you'd find in low games. Yes, I completely agree that low players are generally better microers than fastest players and that late game micro is better in low games, but I think you have several flaws in your argument. The biggest one of all is that you rarely have 30-40 gateways. I typically only have 16-20 before maxing out, which is half of the 30-40 you claim. In addition, with a decently high APM of 250+, it will only take a few more seconds to pump out of those extra 8-10 gateways. For me, pumping from my 16 gateways only takes 5-6 seconds, as opposed to the usual 3-4 seconds on low. Speaking of reps, I played one game way back when against a Korean fastest clan called Mul. It was a 3;3 game, and since the people I played with weren't exceptionally good back then, we got killed. But anyway, that game was particularly interesting because they had 200 APM and were spending much more time on micro (hotkeying mutas with overlords, microing mm, goons, etc.).
Hey, thanks for correcting me on the number of gates/facs. But I would think its smart to lay down more facs/gates once you've maxed up, just to improve your recovering ability. What do you think about this?
Also, you said "several flaws" you nasty person, and you pointed out only two. And one of them isnt really a flaw, its pretty much what I said! So basically one flaw became several, you evil doer.
Decent low players wont take more than 2-3 seconds to macro, max. And a decent fastest player like yourself takes 5-6 seconds to macro, as you yourself have pointed out. Thats double the time, and in my opinion its very significant. Being away from your army for 5-6 seconds on a low map will more often than not mean you'll take far more losses than you would have otherwise.
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On January 10 2007 10:14 davidgurt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 10:11 Gandalf wrote:
Also, davidgurt, who is obviously very experience and skilled on fastest, said:
"And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high)."
You dont see him complaining even though he lost. And, if you read carefully, you will see the toss already had another base up by the time his main was half down. I'm not sure if I'm following you. I agreed with what you said about building in another base if you're being contained.
Oh, I know we agreed on this issue. This quote is for the erudition of Code, who apparently lost to someone who had 50,000 minerals and one probe in a shuttle while he was maxed out.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 10 2007 08:36 davidgurt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 05:53 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 09 2007 21:25 davidgurt wrote:On January 09 2007 21:23 Monoxide wrote:
lol heres how i see it:
Protoss: Mass Dragoons 3-3-3 upgraded of course with a couple of temps (like gg everytime) if hes being a bitch and building cannons everywhere, use reavers.
Zerg: Mass Hydras or Guards and Devour. (3-3 Upgrade) (they see it and call GG)
Terran: Seige tank push with wraiths or battlecruisers (gg)
ya... if u come up with anything pm me It's a little bit more work than just that.  Contrary to popular belief, saying "gg" after the name of a strategy does not automatically make it viable. For example, "ZvT: mass 3-3 devourers gg", though it contains "gg", is not actually going to lead to a "gg", more like a "wtf is this guy doing, ah well, who cares" Most of those were named about 8-12 months ago, before I really started learning how to play, so please don't criticize me simply because I added a "gg" to the end.
I wasn't making fun of you - I was making fun of Monoxide.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P
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If both players are uncreative and don't hurt each others economy, you can simply calculate how many you can constantly pump from with maximum economy. 50 close patches = 5-6 maxed mining bases = you do the math... I don't play toss, but 4-5 gates/base comes out to be about 20-30 gates constantly pumping.
Of course, if there are periods of time where you are maxed out... then I'd say add as many gates and/or cannons as long as your money isn't going down, 50 gates isn't uncommon =P Although some times its just a macro war where both sides continuously stream troops at each other with supply close to being maxed out at all times (mass hydras vs mass goons, for example)
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On January 10 2007 09:10 davidgurt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 09:05 Gandalf wrote:On January 09 2007 22:05 EscPlan9 wrote:
Say you're protoss. He has many siege tanks, some detection (turrets, comsats, sci vessels, whatever), and wraiths. What do you do? Scouts/Carriers/Corsairs? He can comsat (or otherwise detect your observers), take out your observers, cloak his wraiths, and kill any of your air units easily. How are you going to get templars near his siege tanks when his air support will prevent drops and you obviously can't walk into the tanks? I'm thinking you'd have to do something like hallucinate arbiters (a LOT of hallucinations), send them in, then send in some real arbiters, recall a massive army of zlots/goons/archons and hope for the best. When you have 30+ factories, macro takes a LOT more time as opposed to low money play. It also means macro becomes a bigger factor. Fastest players will NOT have the time to control their army really well during late game, and they're not that inclined to micro hard anyway. Macro does take a lot more time, but when you've hit 250+ APM, it's amazing how much you can do. With that much APM, most of it is on macro, but you should be able to pump from all of your factories/gates in a matter of seconds, giving you enough time to micro. And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high).
rofl if u think u get 250apm just macroing then u'r just a noob spammer  u don't need apm over 180 to have good macro(many best non-kor gamers have apm 150 and they "catch it all" by using their brains instead of...well, empty heads :D). it's easy to macro on fastest maps because u focus only on macro unlike in low maps where you have to be at several places at same time+u must think strategically alot which also takes time-i'd bet 99%of fastest maps players wouldn't be capable of playing low money map,keeping their minerals below 500,microing units,watching the map,planning where to attack and what to attack,thinking how to adapt to the situation,etc. because they are capable of doing one thing at a time-they can't produce units,send army to attack,produce more units and return back to the army-because they will not think of that,they will focus on their army and pile up 4k minerals.
playing fastest maps because u like bw is ok,but please don't make "strategies" or even call someone a "gosu" that plays fastest maps,that's hillarious. money maps are just for fun,u produce mass units and a+move,that's all-all u gotta do is figure out how to produce more units than your enemy.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 10 2007 11:25 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 09:10 davidgurt wrote:On January 10 2007 09:05 Gandalf wrote:On January 09 2007 22:05 EscPlan9 wrote:
Say you're protoss. He has many siege tanks, some detection (turrets, comsats, sci vessels, whatever), and wraiths. What do you do? Scouts/Carriers/Corsairs? He can comsat (or otherwise detect your observers), take out your observers, cloak his wraiths, and kill any of your air units easily. How are you going to get templars near his siege tanks when his air support will prevent drops and you obviously can't walk into the tanks? I'm thinking you'd have to do something like hallucinate arbiters (a LOT of hallucinations), send them in, then send in some real arbiters, recall a massive army of zlots/goons/archons and hope for the best. When you have 30+ factories, macro takes a LOT more time as opposed to low money play. It also means macro becomes a bigger factor. Fastest players will NOT have the time to control their army really well during late game, and they're not that inclined to micro hard anyway. Macro does take a lot more time, but when you've hit 250+ APM, it's amazing how much you can do. With that much APM, most of it is on macro, but you should be able to pump from all of your factories/gates in a matter of seconds, giving you enough time to micro. And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high). rofl if u think u get 250apm just macroing then u'r just a noob spammer u don't need apm over 180 to have good macro(many best non-kor gamers have apm 150 and they "catch it all" by using their brains instead of...well, empty heads :D). it's easy to macro on fastest maps because u focus only on macro unlike in low maps where you have to be at several places at same time+u must think strategically alot which also takes time-i'd bet 99%of fastest maps players wouldn't be capable of playing low money map,keeping their minerals below 500,microing units,watching the map,planning where to attack and what to attack,thinking how to adapt to the situation,etc. because they are capable of doing one thing at a time-they can't produce units,send army to attack,produce more units and return back to the army-because they will not think of that,they will focus on their army and pile up 4k minerals. playing fastest maps because u like bw is ok,but please don't make "strategies" or even call someone a "gosu" that plays fastest maps,that's hillarious. money maps are just for fun,u produce mass units and a+move,that's all-all u gotta do is figure out how to produce more units than your enemy.
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you stacked mappers arent shiet. come see me on blue night seoul. OLD SCHOOL. you dont even know. YOU DONT EVEN FUCKIN KNOW SON!@#@!#@!
toss si the king of fpm. the one flaw toss has is that their units are strong but so fucking expensive. with no cost, toss rocks. storm or reaver the $$, mc and create another base. you can do everything with toss.
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On January 10 2007 10:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P
I usually only need 16 to max out within 9-10 minutes, but I would say that the max you would get in a game (assuming it's more than 20-25 minutes) is around 26 at the very most. By that time, you're probably getting some air, whether it's in the form of carriers, sairs, or arbiters, so you'll only be pumping out of maybe 16-20 of those. For z, I usually only need 12 hatcheries, with a max of maybe 18.
On January 10 2007 10:16 Gandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 10:14 davidgurt wrote:On January 10 2007 10:11 Gandalf wrote:
Also, davidgurt, who is obviously very experience and skilled on fastest, said:
"And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high)."
You dont see him complaining even though he lost. And, if you read carefully, you will see the toss already had another base up by the time his main was half down. I'm not sure if I'm following you. I agreed with what you said about building in another base if you're being contained. Oh, I know we agreed on this issue. This quote is for the erudition of Code, who apparently lost to someone who had 50,000 minerals and one probe in a shuttle while he was maxed out.
Sorry about that. I think I misinterpreted what you said because I thought you were addressing something else other than Code's comment.
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On January 09 2007 02:09 Gandalf wrote:
Fastest players aren't completely stupid you know. They're well aware of the fact that stacked workers are very vulnerable to attacks of bats, tanks, reavers, templars, lurkers etc, and they (at least semi decent ones) always prepare for it. By the time you get a shuttle with a couple of stormers, your opponent will have enough cannons around his nexus to take it down before you can storm.
That doesnt meant it'll never work though. Late game you can hallucinate your shuttle and help it get through. Or send a few sairs with it etc etc you get the idea.
A fun strat I've tried for shits and giggles a couple of times is as such: Choose terran. Send the first scv you build to scout your enemy. Once you find him, start constructing an ebay in a hidden part of his main. Once done, float it over his minerals and cover them completely. This will prevent him from sending new workers to mine while you aren't hindered in this respect, thus giving you a huge monetary advantage. You can continue building ebays and floating them over his minerals. He'll be forced to get cannons/goons, hydra/spore or marines to get rid of them.
Proxy rax with bat rush to his probes is fun too. There wont be too many cannons by that time (and sometimes none), but you can focus fire and all the probes on at least one side of the mineral patch.
Lol, way to think outside the box, thats a great idea. Did you think of it? I'm gonna go try that right now.
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On January 10 2007 12:32 j0ehoe wrote:
you stacked mappers arent shiet. come see me on blue night seoul. OLD SCHOOL. you dont even know. YOU DONT EVEN FUCKIN KNOW SON!@#@!#@!
ahah that made me smile
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On January 10 2007 10:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P
We're talking about a lot of Gateways. I play Protoss only on FPMs (but that was a year ago) but I made roughly 32 Gateways to pump out units.
Damn, when did fOru do that? O_O
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On January 12 2007 11:34 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 10:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P We're talking about a lot of Gateways. I play Protoss only on FPMs (but that was a year ago) but I made roughly 32 Gateways to pump out units. Damn, when did fOru do that? O_O
He didn't.
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On January 10 2007 12:32 j0ehoe wrote:
you stacked mappers arent shiet. come see me on blue night seoul. OLD SCHOOL. you dont even know. YOU DONT EVEN FUCKIN KNOW SON!@#@!#@!
toss si the king of fpm. the one flaw toss has is that their units are strong but so fucking expensive. with no cost, toss rocks. storm or reaver the $$, mc and create another base. you can do everything with toss.
orly?
Pretty sure all the races rock with no costs
On January 12 2007 11:34 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2007 10:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P We're talking about a lot of Gateways. I play Protoss only on FPMs (but that was a year ago) but I made roughly 32 Gateways to pump out units. Damn, when did fOru do that? O_O
Damn I can't believe I can't remember the game...but Foru made 50 gates, Nada has what, 6 factories? Nada wins because Foru just massacres his own units repeatedly.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 12 2007 11:37 davidgurt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2007 11:34 Equinox_kr wrote:On January 10 2007 10:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
So how many gates/facs/hatches are we looking at, late game? Obviously you can max out with a relatively low number, but I would imagine that for recovery you want to have 30+ gates to instanteously replace 60+ supply. If ForU can make 50 gates in a low money map vs NaDa...=P We're talking about a lot of Gateways. I play Protoss only on FPMs (but that was a year ago) but I made roughly 32 Gateways to pump out units. Damn, when did fOru do that? O_O He didn't.
What do you mean? http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=25917
19) Foru's 50 gateways.
It was back when Foru was gaining fame as a vs Terran specialist. During a game with Nada he continously pressures him and ends up having like 5 expos to 1. He then builds a total of 50 gateways and pumps goons but does newbie stuff and literally melts them while fighting with tanks and Nada wins. But Foru's 50 gateways is still in the guiness book of records as the most gateways in a game.
Rep: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/information/4183/Nada_vs_Foru_50_gates_game.html
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play low maps. it is much more fun and much more satisfying if you won against your opponent on that maps! Believe me -_- . and as you can see from the threads above, most of the people do not take broodwar serious and are kidding around. sry guys :p
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Early dual upgrades or tri upgrade or whatever!!
EVERYTHING revolves around the late game.
That means 3-3-3 units with mucho upgrades and reserach and tech.
CARRIERSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssss
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On January 10 2007 12:32 j0ehoe wrote:
you stacked mappers arent shiet. come see me on blue night seoul. OLD SCHOOL. you dont even know. YOU DONT EVEN FUCKIN KNOW SON!@#@!#@!
toss si the king of fpm. the one flaw toss has is that their units are strong but so fucking expensive. with no cost, toss rocks. storm or reaver the $$, mc and create another base. you can do everything with toss.
1:1 Girl Clan Ice Hunters GOGOGO?
Any day~ PM
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EPT
