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paaltje
Netherlands359 Posts
On January 10 2007 05:15 Equinox_kr wrote: OH ... MY ... GOD. ADMIN GODS, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD T_T Don't post oke ?  back to thread Mind control other race worker is very usefull after 15 mins , especially in pvt | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
 )Isn't Protoss probably the most imbalanced since they don't have economy problems? Storm to kill off their workers, since they're all stacked, Reavers if they are simply Cannoning bastards, and make 16-24 Gateways and flood, flood, flood. Yes, as much as I hate FPM, I do know something about it. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
2 lurkers or a few firebats early can really hurt their economy if you sneak them in. i used to build barracks near their base and pump up marines and medics. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
I've seen the Firebat trick done many, many times. I remember making Zealots to counter them (T_T) and all the other guy said was "BBQ" and killed off all my Probes. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 09 2007 21:25 davidgurt wrote: It's a little bit more work than just that.  Contrary to popular belief, saying "gg" after the name of a strategy does not automatically make it viable. For example, "ZvT: mass 3-3 devourers gg", though it contains "gg", is not actually going to lead to a "gg", more like a "wtf is this guy doing, ah well, who cares" | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On January 10 2007 05:28 Equinox_kr wrote: Heh, sorry paaltje. FPM brings back bad memories T_T (And that ban is just wrong )Isn't Protoss probably the most imbalanced since they don't have economy problems? Storm to kill off their workers, since they're all stacked, Reavers if they are simply Cannoning bastards, and make 16-24 Gateways and flood, flood, flood. Yes, as much as I hate FPM, I do know something about it. 16-24 gates? Try 50. | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On January 10 2007 05:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: Contrary to popular belief, saying "gg" after the name of a strategy does not automatically make it viable. For example, "ZvT: mass 3-3 devourers gg", though it contains "gg", is not actually going to lead to a "gg", more like a "wtf is this guy doing, ah well, who cares" heheh play toss dude. they are the best in fpm, even if it is amazingly lame =[ | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
best thing to do is play bgh because it's fun+teaches u something,fastest is something u let your 5yr old nephew play when he comes to your house with his parents. anyways,best thing to do on fastest is to never go mass cannon+carriers,it is 2slow and in team games it is 2passive and puts your allies in danger. you can always go double/triple nexus and then just produce mass gates. cannon rush is pretty cool2. if u dont want to waste 2much time just dt rush the noobs or do as someone mentioned an early attack and micro him to death-cuz he probably doesn't know what micro is and his apm is 20. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 10 2007 05:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: Contrary to popular belief, saying "gg" after the name of a strategy does not automatically make it viable. For example, "ZvT: mass 3-3 devourers gg", though it contains "gg", is not actually going to lead to a "gg", more like a "wtf is this guy doing, ah well, who cares" Most of those were named about 8-12 months ago, before I really started learning how to play, so please don't criticize me simply because I added a "gg" to the end. On January 09 2007 21:39 EscPlan9 wrote: What counters mass siege tanks with air support and detection? I'm a noob so maybe thats why the answer isn't clear to me. If he already has that many siege tanks and he's simply containing you at your choke, you're already at a very big disadvantage. If you're playing p, you should be able to hold the center of the map. pvt on fastest resembles pvt on low by quite a bit, so imagine trying to counter 200/200 tanks/vults/gols. It's not a easy thing to do on low either, but that depends on how good you are with macroing goons/zeals/temps with perhaps arbiter/sair support. The same counter can be used on fastest. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 09 2007 14:47 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: uh.. no it's not.. that's called "bm, just leave." What???? Why is building gates in another main bad manner? Its not like you're forbidding the terran from doing the same. If the terran has the toss contained and is pushing in, he's free to put down mass facs in another main. Also, unless he's a moron, he can scout the 6 empty mains, especially the ones adjacent to the toss main. It hardly takes any effort, and I dont think its bad manner at all. I mean, whats the toss supposed to do when he's contained, die? The choke is so narrow even a 200/200 toss army wont be able to take out a well set up and reasonably sized terran army. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 09 2007 22:05 EscPlan9 wrote: Say you're protoss. He has many siege tanks, some detection (turrets, comsats, sci vessels, whatever), and wraiths. What do you do? Scouts/Carriers/Corsairs? He can comsat (or otherwise detect your observers), take out your observers, cloak his wraiths, and kill any of your air units easily. How are you going to get templars near his siege tanks when his air support will prevent drops and you obviously can't walk into the tanks? I'm thinking you'd have to do something like hallucinate arbiters (a LOT of hallucinations), send them in, then send in some real arbiters, recall a massive army of zlots/goons/archons and hope for the best. When you have 30+ factories, macro takes a LOT more time as opposed to low money play. It also means macro becomes a bigger factor. Fastest players will NOT have the time to control their army really well during late game, and they're not that inclined to micro hard anyway. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 10 2007 09:05 Gandalf wrote: When you have 30+ factories, macro takes a LOT more time as opposed to low money play. It also means macro becomes a bigger factor. Fastest players will NOT have the time to control their army really well during late game, and they're not that inclined to micro hard anyway. Macro does take a lot more time, but when you've hit 250+ APM, it's amazing how much you can do. With that much APM, most of it is on macro, but you should be able to pump from all of your factories/gates in a matter of seconds, giving you enough time to micro. And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high). | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 10 2007 09:10 davidgurt wrote: Macro does take a lot more time, but when you've hit 250+ APM, it's amazing how much you can do. With that much APM, most of it is on macro, but you should be able to pump from all of your factories/gates in a matter of seconds, giving you enough time to micro. And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high). No matter HOW fast you macro, macroing in fastest WILL take more time than in low maps, and significantly so. A low map game will probably have players with 8-12 facs during late game (sometimes more, sometimes less), whereas a fastest player will have 30-40. If they are equally fast (although low players tend to be faster), the fastest player will need 3-4 times the time to macro. That automatically means the fastest player will have less time to micro. In low map games, the focus in any battle tends to be more on micro, because macro simply takes less time, and because less money and less factories/gates means a weaker ability to recover. The ratio between time spent on micro and macro is drastically altered in fastest. Theres a difference, and it gives the low player more time to micro. A direct conclusion of this is that since low players micro more per game, they are getting a greater amount of practice, and will eventually become better microers than fastest players. I'm not saying that you shouldnt micro late game in fastest. Or even that fastest players cant perform the aforementioned micro feats. But no matter how you look at it, its obvious that late game micro, at least, wont be as good as what you'd find in low games. | ||
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IIICodeIIIIIII
China1101 Posts
On January 10 2007 09:01 Gandalf wrote: What???? Why is building gates in another main bad manner? Its not like you're forbidding the terran from doing the same. If the terran has the toss contained and is pushing in, he's free to put down mass facs in another main. Also, unless he's a moron, he can scout the 6 empty mains, especially the ones adjacent to the toss main. It hardly takes any effort, and I dont think its bad manner at all. I mean, whats the toss supposed to do when he's contained, die? The choke is so narrow even a 200/200 toss army wont be able to take out a well set up and reasonably sized terran army. so you're saying that if i'm at 200/200, my push destroys the entire protoss base, it's pretty much "gg" THEY will come back and BEAT ME if i accidentally let 1 probe+shuttle get through because that probe will make "12" (by 12 i assume you mean like, 60) gateways and perform a miraculous comeback from 1 vs 200? that may work vs noobs, but i've played games where i've pretty much beat the other person, and hte other person has a fucking probe+shuttle flying around building pylons and gateways. it's fucking stupid. so ya, if your base gets taken out and you have a probe and 50,000 minerals, man, just leave, don't be flying it around trying to make a comeback. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 10 2007 09:49 Gandalf wrote: No matter HOW fast you macro, macroing in fastest WILL take more time than in low maps, and significantly so. A low map game will probably have players with 8-12 facs during late game (sometimes more, sometimes less), whereas a fastest player will have 30-40. If they are equally fast (although low players tend to be faster), the fastest player will need 3-4 times the time to macro. That automatically means the fastest player will have less time to micro. In low map games, the focus in any battle tends to be more on micro, because macro simply takes less time, and because less money and less factories/gates means a weaker ability to recover. The ratio between time spent on micro and macro is drastically altered in fastest. Theres a difference, and it gives the low player more time to micro. A direct conclusion of this is that since low players micro more per game, they are getting a greater amount of practice, and will eventually become better microers than fastest players. I'm not saying that you shouldnt micro late game in fastest. Or even that fastest players cant perform the aforementioned micro feats. But no matter how you look at it, its obvious that late game micro, at least, wont be as good as what you'd find in low games. Yes, I completely agree that low players are generally better microers than fastest players and that late game micro is better in low games, but I think you have several flaws in your argument. The biggest one of all is that you rarely have 30-40 gateways. I typically only have 16-20 before maxing out, which is half of the 30-40 you claim. In addition, with a decently high APM of 250+, it will only take a few more seconds to pump out of those extra 8-10 gateways. For me, pumping from my 16 gateways only takes 5-6 seconds, as opposed to the usual 3-4 seconds on low. Speaking of reps, I played one game way back when against a Korean fastest clan called Mul. It was a 3;3 game, and since the people I played with weren't exceptionally good back then, we got killed. But anyway, that game was particularly interesting because they had 200 APM and were spending much more time on micro (hotkeying mutas with overlords, microing mm, goons, etc.). | ||
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Chobo_Abe
United States168 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 10 2007 09:49 IIICodeIIIIIII wrote: so you're saying that if i'm at 200/200, my push destroys the entire protoss base, it's pretty much "gg" THEY will come back and BEAT ME if i accidentally let 1 probe+shuttle get through because that probe will make "12" (by 12 i assume you mean like, 60) gateways and perform a miraculous comeback from 1 vs 200? that may work vs noobs, but i've played games where i've pretty much beat the other person, and hte other person has a fucking probe+shuttle flying around building pylons and gateways. it's fucking stupid. so ya, if your base gets taken out and you have a probe and 50,000 minerals, man, just leave, don't be flying it around trying to make a comeback. Ummm nope, thats not what I said. First, you need to realize that my post was made simply to disagree with the opinion that building in other mains is bad manner and should not be allowed. Secondly, you have majorly exaggerated my example. I dont understand how you could POSSIBLY conclude I said "they WILL come back and BEAT YOU". No, of course not. But when a protoss is boxed into his base and cant break out head on, he's got to look for other avenues, right? I mean sitting in your base and waiting for the terran to push in means you're going to lose 100%. If you're smart, you'll shuttle out a probe not when you're DEAD, but when you sense the terran is beginning to gain map control. That way, by the time the terran pushes in, you'll already have 20 gates set up in another main. Remember, money comes in extremely fast on fastest, and once you max out, it reaches galactic numbers. A total dumbass will stay in his base waiting to die once terran has map control. A smart toss will realize the impending push, and will have 20-30 gates up in another main to help flank the terran by the time the terran starts pushing in. Similarly, only a complete moron would not scout other mains if he has the toss boxed in. It takes 1-2 scvs and no effort. Better still, he can send out scvs once he controls the center, and build a turret/depot in the empty mains to keep a constant look. And if you destroy the toss base, and he shuttles out a probe AFTER that, and manages to come back, you not only deserve to lose, you deserve to be ejected from the starcraft community. It will be the mother of all comebacks  Flying around with a probe making pylons is altogether a different issue, and I dont know why you're insinuating I advocated that. I did not. I've played versus such people, and I know its irritating and time wasting, and I would never, ever support it. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
"And yes, I agree. You should be scouting the other bases if he's building there, but most of the time, it won't matter because your own base is big enough already (unless your opponent has you choked). The reason I lost one of the games in my rep pack is because I had him down to only half his base (because of my initial push), then missed scouting his buildings next door by a mere centimeter (my zeal was positioned a bit too high)." You dont see him complaining even though he lost. And, if you read carefully, you will see the toss already had another base up by the time his main was half down. | ||
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