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On January 09 2007 11:14 Gandalf wrote:
Well I concede you have far more experience on fastest than me, and that you're probably right, but this is my thinking:
Toss wont be sleeping while you tech to and mass hydra/lurk. He will pressure you with an ultra fast exponentially increasing zealot rush, and you will HAVE to sunken, even if you ling. I know you've played fastest so you've got to be aware of how quickly toss can mass zealots during early game. This will give time to the toss to tech and be ready for hydra/lurk with storm and obs. I dont see dual tech slowing him down because of the massive amount of minerals and gas available.
If you're playing zerg, you will almost always have to sunken every game anyway. That's a given. You should assume that he will try some sort of zeal rush, but if you have 4-5 sunkens placed next to your main, it will be hard to break through. You can actually go fast hydra/lurk in a number of different ways, the quickest of which is teching to liar after only one hatchery. I can almost guarantee that the z can get hydra/lurk before the toss gets storm/obs, unless for some reason he's teching extremely quickly as well.
For an average game, the z will probably have hydra/lurk before the p starts his templar archive and/or observatory bay, which allows for plenty of time for harassment using lurks. This is because the p will normally get at least 4-6 gateways along with a nex before teching (which allows him to get his zeals at the beginning).
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Jokes aside, a timing study of fastest-map strategy can actually be quite interesting.
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On January 09 2007 11:54 MarcX wrote:
Jokes aside, a timing study of fastest-map strategy can actually be quite interesting.
It would. However, there is just as much time involved in making it for a regular study, and I simply don't have the time nor motivation to do it.
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well i like to play zero clutter every once in a while
but u just go mass gateways with zealots and its gg, especially in begining of game
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Zerg is good on fastest, but not for 1v1. In team games they are viable with like a, assuming 3v3, ZPP team. 3 hatches before pool, then a few sunkens, drone whore, add 2 more hatches, then get lurker or start massing hydra. The bad part about zerg is that they are SO easy to storm drop. You need to place scourge in damn good places in order to stop the shuttle -_-.
An insanely effective strategy for zerg midgame is defiler lurk drops on a toss or terran player. If you can swarm effectively you are basically guaranteed to take out their main.
edit: Also an extremely fast rush to storm drops, in a 1v1, is devestating. If you defend well from the initial zealot rush, or your opponent went a nexus/forge first build, you can basically cripple him. Either straight tech to it or nexus first, with cannons for insurance, to tech.
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if it's 1v1, i scout with scv and match them building per building, except i get at least extra cc than them (and as many more as i can get away with based on my scout). they'll be up by a little cause i fast cc, but in fastest map, being down by 400 minerals isn't a lot, and getting an extra cc and extra scvs is a lot. i just make sure i get 1 extra cc, make sure i don't die while it's building, and after that, straight up gol+tank 3/3 in.
i also like taking an expo or 2 just so i have extra room to build factories. I like it when i'm continuously attacking but my pop limit doesn't go below 180 or so.
Edit: i was just messing around the other day so i decided to play a fastest map. TvP (me T). based on what the other dude was doing, I actually managed to make 3 cc. got to 200 before he was at 150. double comsat = maphack.
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TvP on this map is also a pain in the ass because a toss can make 12 gateways easily in a hidden place on the map. If you somehow have a decent push on a toss with tanks/vult/gol/turrets, make SURE you send scvs out to turret up the map. If you let the toss get out with a shuttle and build a ridiculous amount of gateways in another part of the map, its gg.
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On January 09 2007 14:38 BalloonFight wrote:
TvP on this map is also a pain in the ass because a toss can make 12 gateways easily in a hidden place on the map. If you somehow have a decent push on a toss with tanks/vult/gol/turrets, make SURE you send scvs out to turret up the map. If you let the toss get out with a shuttle and build a ridiculous amount of gateways in another part of the map, its gg.
uh.. no it's not.. that's called "bm, just leave."
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remember the stasis mineral harass thread a while back? Wouldnt that work in fastest?
Hallucinate an arb, send a real one in and stasis his workers. All the probes would have to unstack when stasised and would block the mineral line.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Here's the question. Y'all are talking about building extra CC/hatch/nexus for more workers - how many more? Are you basically pumping workers all the time until you max? Do you ever stop? How many patches are there anyway?
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On January 09 2007 18:15 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Here's the question. Y'all are talking about building extra CC/hatch/nexus for more workers - how many more? Are you basically pumping workers all the time until you max? Do you ever stop? How many patches are there anyway?
You strive to get your main Nexus/CC and 2 others placed above your main. That way you can get 3 workers at a time, for each gas really fast, and if you do get stormed, or lurker dropped, or tank dropped, and you lose all of your workers, you can pump out pretty fast. Obviously you need to protect your back behind the mineral line REALLY well. I haven't played fastest in a long while, but I used to try to keep an arbiter on my nexus at all times.. if I saw an enemy coming to storm me or whatever, I'd just statis my workers to keep them safe.
Usually you tend to pump for a LONG time, usually until you are maxed. 3-4 on gas (depending on if your build screwed your gas up). When you start to get a LOT of minerals, and a lot of minerals on fastest is generally like 6k or so, then you can suicide some probes to free up population.
Not completely sure how many minerals there were, but I believe there are 50 or so.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That reminds me, other thing - how many gasses do you get? All of them?
EDIT: Hell, can someone just post some gosu FMP reps? I'm really getting interested in this now =)
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On January 09 2007 11:09 davidgurt wrote:
Also, you should max reasonably quickly in fastest when you're playing 1;1. I don't remember the exact time, but I think it's something like 9-12 minutes? Your macro has to be extremely solid.
It takes me about 12 minutes with initially using units and attacking/teching/defending... although I know you can go much faster if you nexus first or whatever
And yes. I always take all my gas... since most likely you'll have surplus minerals. It's usually 50 patches to 8 geysers, with the patches being right next to your main building... so the actual ratio is probably closer to 10:1 if you max your resources.
I said zerg was fun to play... but it's certainly not the best or easiest, zealot rushes kill over 50% of zergs, the timing for building drones/hatches/sunkens to defend is much harder than the timing for gateway/zealots. But once you get to 20 something hatches... your economy is usually superior as well and recovers extremely quickly even if you do get stormed dropped, etc.
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I really want to see some gosu FMP replays :D
Or even super noob ones that are funny
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
You get all of your gas? Hm.
Also, when? How early on do you get your first, and then when do you max out on all the gasses?
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On January 09 2007 19:05 EscPlan9 wrote:
I really want to see some gosu FMP replays :D
Or even super noob ones that are funny
I found some reps of me playing about a year or so ago, but that wasn't when I was at my prime. I can still upload them somewhere if anyone's interested in watching them. My APM was only around 170-180 on average, and when I picked up fastest again for a short while (about a week or so), my APM rose to about 250 average.
On January 09 2007 19:08 GrandInquisitor wrote:
You get all of your gas? Hm.
Also, when? How early on do you get your first, and then when do you max out on all the gasses?
For p, I get my first gas when I have at least 4-6 gateways and my first nex already. And yes, by the 20-minute mark, you'll definitely need all of your gas to keep your macro up. In fact, I end up sending 4 workers to half of my assimilators around that point because my mineral intake rate is much faster.
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On January 09 2007 19:28 davidgurt wrote:
I found some reps of me playing about a year or so ago, but that wasn't when I was at my prime. I can still upload them somewhere if anyone's interested in watching them. My APM was only around 170-180 on average, and when I picked up fastest again for a short while (about a week or so), my APM rose to about 250 average.
Defensive already? No one's going to judge you for playing fastest well or not. Grand and I have expressed interest in seeing these (and I'm sure others here would like it), so please post them when you get the chance! I really am interested in seeing some decent FMP play.
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On January 09 2007 19:31 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2007 19:28 davidgurt wrote:
I found some reps of me playing about a year or so ago, but that wasn't when I was at my prime. I can still upload them somewhere if anyone's interested in watching them. My APM was only around 170-180 on average, and when I picked up fastest again for a short while (about a week or so), my APM rose to about 250 average. Defensive already? No one's going to judge you for playing fastest well or not. Grand and I have expressed interest in seeing these (and I'm sure others here would like it), so please post them when you get the chance! I really am interested in seeing some decent FMP play.
It pains me when I watched my old replays again.  All right, I'll make a rep pack and post it here, but don't criticize my playing too much (I can honestly say that I played much better later, when I competed in tournaments).
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On January 09 2007 09:03 Gandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2007 08:14 azndsh wrote:
Z is funnest to play I think. Get your allies to cover you if they're decent, power hatches, power drones. You'll definitely max out economy twice as quickly as someone with dual nexus.
As for strats... mass reaver drop, temp+zeal shuttle pretty much guarantees all their workers getting fried, maxing out on zealots and run in, etc. No man, zerg isn't fun at all on fastest (and its also the weakest). I played zerg ONCE on fastest, and it was such a pain in the ass I swore I never would again. The problem with zerg is laying down mass hatches and macroing off them. Mass gates for toss is very easy, and mass factories or rax are also easy, especially if the player is familiar with the diamond formation of placing factories for maximum efficiency over a given area. Mass hatches is fucking crazy. You have to wait for the larvae from adjacent hatcheries to move out of the way, so you can place hatches as close as possible. If you wait, you fall behind. The other option is to lay hatches out of range of the larvae, but that means a lower amount of hatches per unit space, and you fall behind. Macroing is worse. With 30 hatches, you have to select each hatchery and press SH or SM or w/e (as opposed to one button for toss and terran macro), and the chance that a hit wont register is greater. Basically, its a pain in the ass and its not fun at all >< That said it isn't impossible to win with zerg on your team. I think lurkers and late game spell tech are very strong on fastest. But its not like I have a lot of experience with this.
... you can double click the larvaes you know...
The reason why zerg is hard I guess is the same reason as why close distance ZvP, ZvT is hard. It's hard to manage drone/army w/ fixed larvae very effectively.
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EPT
