EPT[Q] Anyone has strategy for fastest map ??? - Page 2
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alpskomleko
Slovenia950 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On January 09 2007 07:40 thedeadhaji wrote: good or bad advice aside, i enjoyed reading MarcX's post me too  | ||
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
As for strats... mass reaver drop, temp+zeal shuttle pretty much guarantees all their workers getting fried, maxing out on zealots and run in, etc. | ||
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distant_voice
Germany2521 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 09 2007 08:14 azndsh wrote: Z is funnest to play I think. Get your allies to cover you if they're decent, power hatches, power drones. You'll definitely max out economy twice as quickly as someone with dual nexus. As for strats... mass reaver drop, temp+zeal shuttle pretty much guarantees all their workers getting fried, maxing out on zealots and run in, etc. No man, zerg isn't fun at all on fastest (and its also the weakest). I played zerg ONCE on fastest, and it was such a pain in the ass I swore I never would again. The problem with zerg is laying down mass hatches and macroing off them. Mass gates for toss is very easy, and mass factories or rax are also easy, especially if the player is familiar with the diamond formation of placing factories for maximum efficiency over a given area. Mass hatches is fucking crazy. You have to wait for the larvae from adjacent hatcheries to move out of the way, so you can place hatches as close as possible. If you wait, you fall behind. The other option is to lay hatches out of range of the larvae, but that means a lower amount of hatches per unit space, and you fall behind. Macroing is worse. With 30 hatches, you have to select each hatchery and press SH or SM or w/e (as opposed to one button for toss and terran macro), and the chance that a hit wont register is greater. Basically, its a pain in the ass and its not fun at all >< That said it isn't impossible to win with zerg on your team. I think lurkers and late game spell tech are very strong on fastest. But its not like I have a lot of experience with this. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
All these comments are based on 1;1. First of all, I tend to think that p has the biggest advantage in fastest. For t, the best strat I've seen is a quick acad into bat rush to sneak behind his choke and take out his workers. After that, you pump mm and mass tanks/vults, varying the amounts of each depending on the race of your opponent (almost like low money style, only on a much bigger basis). For z, the normal strat I see is 2hatch pool, then build up to maybe 5-6 hatches, pump lings, and mass hydras. You will have at least 12 hatcheries by the time you're around 100-150 pop. Later on, you can get guards, ultras, or defilers, and it's more or less personal preference. The key is to not get killed by a rush from p (mass zeals) or from t (mm rush), so make sure you have enough sunkens. For p, the usual strat I like to do is pylon, gateway, gateway, gateway, pylon, gateway, forge, nexus, or a close variant of that. You build the first pylon with your 7th worker as soon as it comes out (you will have 100 minerals exactly). Scout with it. The first gateway will be built with your 8th worker as soon as it comes out (150 minerals exactly). Likewise, the next one will be built with your 9th, and so on until your 4th gateway. I've found that the timing for this build is excellent because everything seems to be right on schedule. If I'm playing a t, i get a forge after my 2nd gateway and do a zeal/cannon rush (which kills the t about 75% of the time). If not, I pump some zeals and mass goons. If I'm playing a z, I usually get my nexus earlier since the z will almost always play passively until he has enough to break out and attack (which isn't for a while since you'll have more zeals than he can stop). I then mass zeal/temps, building very few goons, and break out when I'm maybe around the 100-150 mark. This combo is actually very hard to stop, because you can simply storm any mass of units that head your way, killing them instantly. I used this strat in one of the tournaments I played in, and I was undefeated against z. For p, you need to make sure you have enough zeals at the beginning to match your opponent's. After that, you mass goons, much like against t. For late game, you can build some sair/carrier/arbiter, but I tend to stick to just sair/arbiter and leave the carriers out. There are two key elements: building another nexus (often two total) behind your minerals to get more workers and storm dropping your opponent, both of which are crucial. For storm dropping, you will need to time it as to not delay your macroing, but soon enough that it will do considerable damage to his econ (in other words, sometime between 5-10 minutes). Make a shuttle, put in 2 temps/2 zeals, and back it up either with a sair or another shuttle. Send in both (or more if you have more), drop quickly, and take out his workers. The same can be done with hallucinations, but I tend to find that that takes too long. [edit] For z, you do not have to select each hatchery to macro. The easiest way is to simply ctrl + click your larva, which will automatically select 12. However, the best way in my opinion is to simply box 12 larva with your mouse and build. This doesn't work when you have units that have already hatched that get in the way, so resort to ctrl in that case. If anyone is interested, I can upload some replays (if I can find any). | ||
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hanhcom
37 Posts
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OnlyProtoss
Bhutan37 Posts
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 09 2007 09:28 OnlyProtoss wrote: marine n medic rush with firebat in fmp u cant lose. It's because of the amount of money u get in such an early period like 5 minutes 12 barracks pumping medics/rines/bats is gosu on fmp. You can lose, but I can agree that it's very hard to stop on fastest. If you're playing p, you really need to make sure you keep on top of your unit production, and probably make cannons at your choke to keep him from breaking in (usually 3-5 is enough). However, you cannot get 12 rax in 5 minutes, and when you do get 12 rax, the p will have enough to easily break his offensive. Another thing: some t always forget the importance of getting detection in the form of turrets against dt rushes. Making a comsat is usually out the question since you'll need to build another cc just to make it. However, a lot of t players will tend to build their usual 4-5 rax in the beginning to put pressure, then jump straight to factories, making them easy prey to your dts. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 09 2007 03:18 intrigue wrote: a good trick is building a rax or something, and then just floating over his mineral patch so he can't click on it and make his workers mine =) power as he's forced to get cannons or something to get rid of it This works wonders against z. On January 09 2007 05:08 BluzMan wrote: This post just proves what all those FPM players are. Change the map in editor bla bla bla. Bweh, you are disgusting. "All those FPM players?" | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
On January 09 2007 09:03 Gandalf wrote: Macroing is worse. With 30 hatches, you have to select each hatchery and press SH or SM or w/e (as opposed to one button for toss and terran macro), and the chance that a hit wont register is greater. ctrl+click larvae and build 12 at a time, that works much faster | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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Chobo_Abe
United States168 Posts
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paaltje
Netherlands359 Posts
best way is mass reaver cors temps vs z. mass temp zeolot vs t. mass reaver and reaver recall with hallu arbiters vs p. and don't forget to storm workers ever 30 sec (3 lots +1 ht in shuttle, start unloading zeals, so the canons around the main will attack zealots. | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
On January 09 2007 10:20 paaltje wrote: ur guys are all wrong ! best way is mass reaver cors temps vs z. mass temp zeolot vs t. mass reaver and reaver recall with hallu arbiters vs p. and don't forget to storm workers ever 30 sec (3 lots +1 ht in shuttle, start unloading zeals, so the canons around the main will attack zealots. Reavers take too long to get. I'm always able to out-mass my opponent with solid zeal/goon before he can do any real damage. As for storm dropping, 2 ht + 2 zeal works better because chances are you're not going to unload all three zeals in time, and the extra ht will help if you lose one and/or for an extra storm. Like I said earlier, make sure you send in more than just that one shuttle when dropping or you'll probably lose it. By the way, if your nex first, you'll be very vulnerable (just like FE in low money). If your opponent is decent, he should be able to rush and beat you. I used to do nex first, then get my 2nd nex after my forge, but I found that it's really hard to pull off in 1;1. In 2;2, it's possible. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
On January 09 2007 10:12 Chobo_Abe wrote: please don't write down BO on this thread or else it'll look something like this, depot rax gas depot rax depot rax depot rax rax rax rax rax rax depot factory factory factory depot factory factory starport starport starport starport starport science facility science facliity rax rax rax rax rax. And saying zerg is worst race in fastest and you're wrong. They can 1) mass lings and rush a unsuspecting late gamer B) make defilers faster then science vessels can irritate. C) Send in 30 mutas and a queen and INFEST the cc. D) PvZ imba works on fastest maps too Well I'm not an experienced fastest player or anything so I cant refute your argument with any degree of authority, but I do feel you're wrong: Zerg generally need to out resource their opponents to be on equal footing. With an equal number of bases/mining rate, things tend to disfavor them (although this is not always true). Low maps display the expansibility of zerg, and this is confirmed by the fact that on most maps in most games, zerg will FE vs toss or terran. On fastest, protoss and terran can actually mine faster than zerg (unless they pump drones like madmen, but I'll come to this later), and that automatically puts zerg at a disadvantage 1) Trust me, mass lings will never work versus a half decent opponent. Money comes in very fast on fastest and protoss will have 4-5 gates up with continuous zealot pump in no time. Terran will start massing rax and put up bunkers right away. 2) I'm pretty sure fastest players make vessels primarily to detect, not to irradiate. Fastest players tend not to have the hand speed or precision of a seasoned regular player, and they'll probably counter a defiler supported army with mass mech. 3) By the time you get thirty mutas and a queen, any half decent fastest player will have thirty trillion cannons/turrets around his nexus/cc. They will only skip this if they're playing pub. If you guys meet in a channel or something and set up a game, he's going to play safe. I think its foolish to assume that such strategies havent been tried and tested by fastest players. I'm dead sure they've tried pretty much experimented with every possible way to attack workers and take out the nexus/cc. Whats more, they're ALWAYS ready for it, because its the single most crippling (actually game ending) strategy. Ok, this is my take on zerg on fastest: 1) In a 1on1, its possible that the zerg can sunken up, mass hatcheries, pump drones, keep sunkening, get hive tech, mass to 200/200 and break out. The downside of this is that if your enemy figures this out, he himself will be maxed out by the time you break out PLUS will have 30 gates at his main and 30 at another main. Also, you'll be breaking out through a choke, and he'll be fighting through a wider center, giving him a tremendous advantage. Doom drops could work here though. I dont think a zerg can play very aggressive in 1on1. If he fails to do major damage right at the start, its gg. 2) In team games turtling by the zerg means a 1v2/2v3 situation for his team. Playing aggressive again means they have to severely damage or take out one, else the zerg will become the achilles heel once everyone has sufficiently powered up (and thats very early on fastest). | ||
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davidgurt
United States1355 Posts
Also, you should max reasonably quickly in fastest when you're playing 1;1. I don't remember the exact time, but I think it's something like 9-12 minutes? Your macro has to be extremely solid. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
Toss wont be sleeping while you tech to and mass hydra/lurk. He will pressure you with an ultra fast exponentially increasing zealot rush, and you will HAVE to sunken, even if you ling. I know you've played fastest so you've got to be aware of how quickly toss can mass zealots during early game. This will give time to the toss to tech and be ready for hydra/lurk with storm and obs. I dont see dual tech slowing him down because of the massive amount of minerals and gas available. | ||
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