Getting a 3rd nexus and cutting probes is a kind of half investment. Basically you want the 3rd nexus up, but you also have to invest in units as much as you can to repel his first attack. You can't afford 3rd nexus and many probes, so you just cut probes until you get a feel for how big of a threat you are facing. The 3rd nexus provides 9 supply, and you're going to cut ~8 probes, so you're already saving 200 minerals on pylons. The probes you do have are going to be mining more efficiently (never waiting on a patch). Then when you do have a chance to pump probes, you can do it from 3 nexus and get a smooth increase in your economy, rather than the sharp jump that building a 3rd nexus while having 16 probes waiting to transfer to it would cause.

Whether you want to do one or the other, or if you want to go the different route and harrass him (whether by straight up goon/zealot, or by templar or reaver tech) is going to depend on the map, the hints he gives, and what you think your own strengths are

Knickknack

United States1187 Posts

July 31 2006 08:00 GMT

#44

Good post. Its the probe production and cutting part that I'm most intrested in. With 2 nexus its pretty much going to be consistant probes all the way until you probably halt them then expand later. ~50 probes. With 3 nexus, you get hit for lots of mins early bad for production. You gain psi also which is a plus though. You gain patches which is a plus. So, what I'm considering is something like: is producing 40 probes then cutting with 3nexus more favorable then 50 with two.

After looking at some builds to get a rough idea, I come to this conclusion, which is really common sense. Note that I think the builds were roughly equal probe production though, that is, a case where the 3nexus guy does not cut but goes for the usual ammout with 2nexus. Basically, the closer an attack is to the time when you put up your 3rd nexus, the worse off you'll be going for the 3rd nexus.

Considering that, If T attacks at 9min I think I'ld prefer going 2nexus. 11min -- 3nexus. The more probes you can get away with and the more time you have to prepare, the better going 3 nexus will be. This in turn brings in aspects of adapting to what the terran is doing and levels safeness. I'm still not exactly sure how cutting probes hard for 3nexus factors in though. Perhaps I'll consider this some more and try to come up with some numbers or at least example replays.

PhilGood2DaY

Germany7424 Posts

July 31 2006 21:20 GMT

#45

basically it doesnt matter, what you play vs his fast CC strat. Its all about how well you execute it. I dont think there is any good anti strategy. A dt/reaver drop can be as successful as an well timed double expo into hardcore zeal/goon macro. A 3 gate goon with shuttle and zeal strats to kick him directly can be very good, too. It's almost like.. everything works vs fast CC, it's just the question how good you are in general. It's not like .. build goons and obs vs zerg if you see hydra den and Lair.. You cant say this in PvT and not vs 1fac CC . It's all about your timing, macro , micro, skill in general. There are like 3-5 strategies that are all on the same level of effeciency vs 1fac CC, maybe differing in 1-3 %. But i think for the noob some kind of all in is easier, than double expo, cause you have to be so cautios and so careful to not die to his first push. And timing is so important.. But.. basicaly there's no best answer. There are some answers and all can work pretty good.

strik.fr

France212 Posts

August 01 2006 12:02 GMT

#46

Dt drop means u will lose if ucan't really delay his macro..safer to play "classic" and triple nexus.

dream-_-

United States1857 Posts

August 01 2006 12:28 GMT

#47

watch some recent courage/korean clan war reps. 4goon expo into triple gate no ob, or 4 goon into dt push with dt/goon zeal

GuYuTe-

United States550 Posts

August 01 2006 13:42 GMT

#48

And one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. If you're feeling really frisky or you play a guy that does this build pretty much everygame, you can go nexus before gate.

Knickknack

United States1187 Posts

August 03 2006 01:04 GMT

#49

After comparing multiple replays its become clear to me that the key issue is how many units are necessary in order to be safe. Once that is figured out, then I can roughly figure out the best build for economy while remaining safe. Edit- I have the notion that many terran players are much worse at macro then toss, which factors in heavily with stuff like travel distance, mobility, attacking too late, which often allows toss to get away with double expo. I could be wrong though as I don't know about terran build efficiency.

Clearly, 2nexus is better for attacking unit production early on. Indeed, significantly better. The usual was something like 20g/4z vs. 13g/4z at 9min. Based on observation, cutting with 3nexus may be slightly better for economy, depending on when one starts to pump probes and how many, while 2nexus is significantly better for unit production for awhile early.

So, without knowing much about what the terran is doing, I would not go double expo unless I am sure I could get away with making pretty consistant probes. In this case the tradeoff is clear, significantly stronger economy, but a significantly weaker army for some time.

edit- old thread duscussing 2exp vs. 3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=2&topic_id=9983