EPT[H] Counter to 1 Fact Command Center in PvT??
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
By that time, my 2nd nexus is still warping...are you sure there's no easier way? | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
dt drop into double expo reaver into double expo hehe fact cc is a strong macro build but its quite weak vs early cheese like that because they have too many places to defend | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
Could please give me the build order for DT Drop, DT rush, and reaver build? I never do these, because I never know the build orders...I always play straight-up...maybe that's why I'm losing so much...  | ||
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Protoss-Fighting
United States814 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
in all honesty if u sense a fact cc coming by seeing a third depot before 2nd fact (a hint to a 1 fact build) go 1 gate range into expo. ur nexus will be up before his CC lands and ull have a quick macro advantage. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
If you suspect 1 fact cc, you either go on the extreme offensive or more "passive" way. I prefer the passive macro way, where you immediately cut probe production and goons if you really need to and get a 2nd expo. Then pump probes like mad and add a large number of gateways. You could also add a third gate and robo to try bulldog and break his defense, but I find that more risky. If you choose the macro way, its important you contain him with your army. You can let him have his expo, just don't let him harass you with vults which is a big problem when you have 3 bases. Obs should be able to see drops coming too if he tries that. Make him feel really choked and blocked in by always keeping your army just beyond his. Other things you can do are if you have started your expo, add a robo and go reaver or 4 dt drop to harass the crap out of him after he has expoed. While you doing this you expo to get 3 bases. | ||
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
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itzme_petey
United States1400 Posts
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amoxicilline
France1124 Posts
and I don't think going dt drop every game , hoping he goes 1 fac cc is a good idea too | ||
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
On July 30 2006 03:32 amoxicilline wrote: I don't get how you can go dt drop AFTER having scouted 1 fac cc, this will just be late ... and I don't think going dt drop every game , hoping he goes 1 fac cc is a good idea too The easiest solution is to keep your scouting worker alive long enough to see his factory count or number of supply depots etc. Also, the intel you get from you first zeolot or goon going up his blocked ramp can tell you whether or not to go for dt drop, and it isn't too late yet at that point if you like getting the robotics facility fairly early. | ||
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
Can anyone tell me a list of certain buildings that are built, what certain builds could occur? For example, Yochibow mentioned that if he built a 3rd depot before 2nd fact, it's fast expo. Thanks Yochibow! Could you please what other signs could lead to otehr builds? Thanks so much | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20076 Posts
On July 29 2006 21:34 Darknite721 wrote: by the time i scout it his build, he already has SCV's Maynarding... Are you scouting with like 15th probe or something? | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On July 30 2006 12:11 decafchicken wrote: Are you scouting with like 15th probe or something? I scout frequently, so, it's the second time I scout....my first probe dies too quickly | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
The most effective thing to do is simply double expand and have good macro. Continue expanding in the early game and have lots of observers around to spot vulture harass and such : ] Try to download lots of PvT replays where you see the protoss simply overwhelm terran and such : ] | ||
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On July 30 2006 03:32 amoxicilline wrote: I don't get how you can go dt drop AFTER having scouted 1 fac cc, this will just be late ... and I don't think going dt drop every game , hoping he goes 1 fac cc is a good idea too u dont have to go a super fast dt dorp dude.. u can dt drop after ur expo. alot of terrans get slow acad after fact cc cuz they are just powering/macroing and read my post i said u dont have to cheese to win vs fact cc. just have to have superior macro/timing to win | ||
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Protoss-Fighting
United States814 Posts
On July 30 2006 13:53 micronesia wrote: With regard to your scouting problem, one thing you can do is build 1 zeolot while the core is coming in. If your opponent isn't blocked in you can get it into their base sometimes (over a couple of dead marines probably) to scout the buildings, and if it is blocked or too well defended you can pull it back (have it chill near the natural perhaps) and that way you'll see the moment he moves out for either a fe or a rush. if they dont wall they get atleast 3-4 rines | ||
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
On July 30 2006 14:28 Protoss-Fighting wrote: if they dont wall they get atleast 3-4 rines That varies a lot. Sometimes the zeolot surprises them, sometimes they have plenty to block it with. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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GuYuTe-
United States550 Posts
On July 29 2006 22:13 Protoss-Fighting wrote: you need to x2 expo and slow down on probe production, and macro like hell, dont waste to much money on canons and stuff, you need every unit you can get, + more, stay at his choke when he comes out attack with goons, when he sieges go back, this stalls time for reinforcement units, also 2 stormers in shuttle helps alot. Best solution. Fast carrier can work too. | ||
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On July 30 2006 18:00 GrandInquisitor wrote: That's dumb. Any reasonable fast robo build ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=26250 ) should catch his fact cc if your probe doesn't. Also read the tip in there - keep a probe near your expo since so many terrans do fact cc anyway, you can make the nexus much faster if he does. Dont you mean near his expo? | ||
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
At your expo. As soon as you scout the fact cc, you can then put your nexus down immediately (cancelling building goons if necessary) with the probe that's sitting at your nat. It saves the time it takes to pull a probe from mining and have it move to the nat. | ||
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epidion
United States316 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On July 30 2006 20:08 Darknite721 wrote: Verdict: Just double-expand? Thanks everyone its your choice. Are you more comfortable with macro and large scale unit control, or more confident in micro and harass? For the first you double expo, for the second you expo and tech to dt or reaver and harass the crap out of him while expoing again. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
now that i think about it. 1 expo with fast carriers can really fuck them up lol | ||
Chill
Calgary25988 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
On July 31 2006 09:04 Chill wrote: Stove. This one definitely wins | ||
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
On July 31 2006 08:45 ahk-gosu wrote: now that i think about it. 1 expo with fast carriers can really fuck them up lol Only if you hide it very well though right? | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Of course, consider the terran option of an early timing attack, or 3 nexus is easily better as it allows you to power more while remaining safe as long as to react properly to drops or whatever. edit- To quote protoss-fighting (nothing against you), "you need to x2 expo and slow down on probe production." So let me get this right, your spending 400mins on another nexus early, and your slowing down on probe production? And your going to benefit from this how? For those of you who may say dont slow down on probe production, well then your going to spend 400mins on another nexus and more minerals on more probes. Now it seems pretty clear you'll likely have problems vs. a timed attack. | ||
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micronesia
United States24741 Posts
On July 31 2006 10:27 Knickknack wrote: I'm asking all you guys that said double expo, why you said that rather then just single expo (2 nexus) as the toss macro heavy response. Especially since this is bascially what the thread starter seems to have taken from this thread. Of course, consider the terran option of an early timing attack, or 3 nexus is easily better as it allows you to power more while remaining safe as long as to react properly to drops or whatever. edit- To quote protoss-fighting (nothing against you), "you need to x2 expo and slow down on probe production." So let me get this right, your spending 400mins on another nexus early, and your slowing down on probe production? And your going to benefit from this how? For those of you who may say dont slow down on probe production, well then your going to spend 400mins on another nexus and more minerals on more probes. Now it seems pretty clear you'll likely have problems vs. a timed attack. The people who are saying to double expo are right. You are right that it seems counterproductive since you are going to have to cut down on something else in order to pull it off. However, this strategy is based off of the fundamental most important part of the pvt matchup: The terran is less mobile than the protoss. Terran is really good at bunkering in, as a result, the protoss will always be 1 step ahead in taking over the map. The toss needs to be ahead on expos, and the double expo strat will work. The only reason why you need to cut down on units and/or probes at certain times is to even out your stength so you aren't especially susceptible to a timing push. | ||
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Cedric
Hungary186 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On July 31 2006 09:04 Chill wrote: Stove. Topic over. | ||
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In)Spire
United States1323 Posts
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
Whether you want to do one or the other, or if you want to go the different route and harrass him (whether by straight up goon/zealot, or by templar or reaver tech) is going to depend on the map, the hints he gives, and what you think your own strengths are | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
After looking at some builds to get a rough idea, I come to this conclusion, which is really common sense. Note that I think the builds were roughly equal probe production though, that is, a case where the 3nexus guy does not cut but goes for the usual ammout with 2nexus. Basically, the closer an attack is to the time when you put up your 3rd nexus, the worse off you'll be going for the 3rd nexus. Considering that, If T attacks at 9min I think I'ld prefer going 2nexus. 11min -- 3nexus. The more probes you can get away with and the more time you have to prepare, the better going 3 nexus will be. This in turn brings in aspects of adapting to what the terran is doing and levels safeness. I'm still not exactly sure how cutting probes hard for 3nexus factors in though. Perhaps I'll consider this some more and try to come up with some numbers or at least example replays. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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strik.fr
France212 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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GuYuTe-
United States550 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Clearly, 2nexus is better for attacking unit production early on. Indeed, significantly better. The usual was something like 20g/4z vs. 13g/4z at 9min. Based on observation, cutting with 3nexus may be slightly better for economy, depending on when one starts to pump probes and how many, while 2nexus is significantly better for unit production for awhile early. So, without knowing much about what the terran is doing, I would not go double expo unless I am sure I could get away with making pretty consistant probes. In this case the tradeoff is clear, significantly stronger economy, but a significantly weaker army for some time. edit- old thread duscussing 2exp vs. 3: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=2&topic_id=9983 | ||
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