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I only watch BW nowadays (haven't played in a while), and I think the biggest watchability flaw today of BW is how blah ZvZ is. I'm curious what can be done at the map level about this, since obviously the game isn't going to get patched.
The main goal would be to push ZvZ towards higher eco and longer games, because hive ZvZ is super fun. At the same time, the changes should avoid imbalancing non-mirrors.
1. Put a 8-mineral patch blocking the short rush distance. (Think something like Blue Storm, except the narrow entrance blocked by 8 minerals.) Possibly even put slideable patches on either sides so that the worker scouting distance isn't reduced at all.
This shouldn't change non-ZvZ matchups much, because worker scouting is common, and the scout worker can remove the patch. But in ZvZ, working scouting is unusual at high levels. So, the patch would slow down fast zerglings unless a drone goes ahead to mine the patch first, which might make 12-hatch builds a little safer.
2. Instead of one gas in the main and one in the natural, put no gas in the main and two in the natural. In ZvZ, this would effectively force 12 hatch (or even 10 hatch), because even 12 pool would not get gas fast enough.
As far as openings go, I think the effect on ZvT and ZvP would be minor. FE is typical in those matchups anyway, so apart from slightly delayed gas timing, the matchups shouldn't change much. In TvP, Terran and Protoss would both be forced into FE and get their gas later than they'd like, but maybe not giving an advantage to either race.
This trick would probably work best with a 2-player map, because with a 3-or-4 player map, there would be a weird effect on Zerg's expansion in midgame. The lack of gas in other mains would hurt Zerg in ZvT, while the extra gas in other naturals would help Zerg in ZvP.
3. Natural gas placed to be easily coverable by spore colonies that cover the main's gas and minerals. In a ZvZ, it's not terribly important to mine natural minerals, so this helps 12-pool against 9-pool by making it easier to defend against the faster Spire.
The natural minerals must still be difficult to cover with static defense in the main, or else Zerg would be hurt in ZvT.
Thoughts on these or other ideas?
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I don't think it's too possible to make a map specifically for macro ZvZs without messing up other MUs too much...make a map and show us it and some replays of all MUs :D
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I am not sure if it would change that much. There are certainly 12 hatch versus 12 hatch games in modern ZvZs (allbeit blindly and usually on particularly large maps) that end in mass mutalisk battles anyways. I think the delay in gas would only tend to make delay the inevitable mutalisk battle, perhaps making the ling on ling part of the game longer. I could be completely wrong.
I actually don't mind ZvZs, though. I think its kind of nice change of pace to see both short ZvZ micro-contests and long TvT chess matches. (Personally I think PvP is the most boring to watch, but that may just be because I have never seriously tried to play P).
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Personally I have no problem with ZvZs...any matchup gets boring to watch if you watch a lot of it and consistently see the same thing...there was a point where I loved PvP matchups then I saw like 10 games in a row of 1 gate robo vs 1 gate robo so it got boring...then I was like dem ZvPs pretty cool...then too much of the same build vs same build etc. ZvZ can be quite interesting,
RoRo vs ZerO on La Mancha and many other hive ZvZs show that it is possible and quite interesting to watch...and I remembed in SKT vs KT for the SPL finals, the ZvZ(s?) in that were quite epic just by going standard...
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1. pretty far unit walking distance, like detonation-F or even carthage, will most likely enhance 12 hatch playstyle, but that doesnt mean the games wont turn into mass muta with lings instead of hive.
2. if u go 12 hatch, u want to go 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas, but the 2nd hatch wont finish for the gas to be in time.
that makes 3 hatch builds easier to use, so most likely u would see 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch or even 3 hatch before pool (based on overlord scouting distance)
3. it already is that way in some maps, for example jade, but mostly u need 2 spores anyway.
yes everything can turn into hive, but also can everything turn into mass muta.
it depends on the players playing in it.
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For what it's worth, i think watching hive zvz is really boring. You watch both of them macro and tech from 2 base for about 15 mins with nothing happening, then one person wins.
Most other zvzs are fast and action packed, even if they are a little repetitive.
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If there was no gas in the main and double gas in the nat, wouldn't that be disadvantageous to Terran in general?
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On January 29 2013 19:55 Bakuryu wrote:
1. pretty far unit walking distance, like detonation-F or even carthage, will most likely enhance 12 hatch playstyle, but that doesnt mean the games wont turn into mass muta with lings instead of hive.
2. if u go 12 hatch, u want to go 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas, but the 2nd hatch wont finish for the gas to be in time.
that makes 3 hatch builds easier to use, so most likely u would see 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch or even 3 hatch before pool (based on overlord scouting distance)
3. it already is that way in some maps, for example jade, but mostly u need 2 spores anyway.
yes everything can turn into hive, but also can everything turn into mass muta.
it depends on the players playing in it.
Thanks for your feedback.
For 1, thanks for the pointer to Detonation-F. That's pretty close to what I was thinking about, except that the mineral fields have more minerals (so it has a big impact on the non-ZvZ matchups).
For 3, I meant that the natural gas would be close to the main's resources, so that fewer spores would be needed. So instead of 2 spores per base, instead 3 spores could provide adequate coverage. On Jade, although the natural gas is close to the main, it's quite far from the main's resources.
I agree that mass muta could happen, which I think is okay. Once there are enough mutas out for both players, then it becomes worthwhile to tech Ensnare (which we've seen in pro games), so already that provides some variety to games.
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I love zvz!
I do dual-evo hydras.
These would all buff that.
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On February 06 2013 04:29 -NegativeZero- wrote:Is this your map?
Nope! It would be cool if this thread inspired someone. The rush distance on that map looks pretty short, so I'm not sure it'd be great for 12 hatch anyway. It might require pool no-gas openings in ZvZ. (Edit: Also I was thinking to minimize disruption to the balance of non-ZvZ matchups, whereas this map definitely disrupts them. Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
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Hi!
Me made map that is maybe good for zvz.
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ZvZ isn't boring. You probably don't understand this matchup.
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On February 07 2013 05:16 trutaCz wrote:
ZvZ isn't boring. You probably don't understand this matchup.
I agree I feel like ZvZ is really intense, perhaps people dont like the the speed of most of them or the fact that 2 lings never mattered more, but I feel like this matchup is very heart-racing and epic.
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On January 29 2013 20:59 kerpal wrote:
For what it's worth, i think watching hive zvz is really boring. You watch both of them macro and tech from 2 base for about 15 mins with nothing happening, then one person wins.
Most other zvzs are fast and action packed, even if they are a little repetitive.
+1. hive ZvZ is really boring its literally just like watching TvT turtle split map instead you do it with 2 base.
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On February 07 2013 05:16 trutaCz wrote:
ZvZ isn't boring. You probably don't understand this matchup.
You're right, I phrased it wrong by saying ZvZ is "boring". I agree that it isn't boring (and I'd argue it's often less boring than many PvTs), but there isn't enough variety. Trouble is, ZvZ has the fewest relevant units of any matchup, has not much variation in game length, and the map doesn't matter much. These factors make ZvZs a bit same-y, especially as a spectator. There just isn't as much breadth there as in the non-mirrors and TvT.
Lack of breadth doesn't mean lack of depth. Sure, there is a lot of depth in optimal larva use, proper use of scouting info, micro, etc. Yet part of what makes Brood War such a great spectator game is the variety of games it can have. ZvZ would be richer if both short and long games were common, like in TvZ. There'd be just as much depth in the short games, and then there would be additional depth to find in the long games, too.
I also disagree with the sentiments here that hive ZvZ is one-dimensional and 2-base. We've seen a variety of outcomes in pro games that go to hive. Fundamentally also, once on a Hydra-Lurker-Defiler composition (which is reasonable once plague is available to counter mutas), there is a large defender's advantage in hive ZvZ because Lurkers under swarm are pretty hard to break head-on. Assuming the game is still even enough at that point, I'd expect a land grab situation like in TvT, with both players racing to get entrenched positions on as much of the map as they can. That's what I remember seeing in pro games when it got that far, although it's been a while so maybe I just remember wrong.
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To me ZvZ is an ok match-up to watch.
The thing with all mirrors is that the small advantages matters even more than in a non-mirror MU. At my level of play, for instance, if I meet a Terran who's on top of his production cycles (that is to say, more on top than I am on mine), he's probably gonna end up winning the game after 10-20 minutes. In ZvZ however, if one player has some small advantage (build order, drone count, map control, micro, etc etc) he might very well win in about 5 minutes.
What I'm trying to say here is that ZvZ can be very, very boring to watch if there's a sizable gap in skill between the 2 players. If it's 2 players who are about as good though, then the match-up can make for extremely action packed and exciting games. I agree with the OP that Hive-tech is seen too rarely, but I don't think it's possible to "solve" this.
A map specifically for ZvZ might be possible, and even interesting, but in that case I'd forget about the other match-ups. It will almost certainly be imbalanced in any non-mirror MU, and trying to make it balanced for them would likely make it similar to other standard maps, defeating the purpose of making this map to begin with.
edit: clarity, spelling, etc
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The problems with ZvZ are
1 Rock Paper Scissors early game
2 One single viable unit composition
3 Difficult to watch and understand Muta/Scourge battles with the way the game is designed
Obviously all of those are somewhat debatable...
The way you think of "solving" the boredom is to enforce the same early game for both players(hatch first) which does reduce perceived randomness in the matchup but doesn't address any others. And if you like Hive ZvZ it doesn't help that either. It is the players who make that happen, by being too even in the Muta battles, getting scared to attack, and therefore teching up to Ensnare and whatever else, as mentioned.
IMO the issue is the single viable unit composition, and there is nothing you can do about that with just maps(maybe super gimmicky UMS). So I'm afraid you need a Muta nerf of sorts, like making them large or medium. Corsairs can be also nerfed/removed in this case of course.
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On February 12 2013 20:54 50bani wrote:
IMO the issue is the single viable unit composition, and there is nothing you can do about that with just maps(maybe super gimmicky UMS). So I'm afraid you need a Muta nerf of sorts, like making them large or medium. Corsairs can be also nerfed/removed in this case of course.
What about TvZ? Isn't it difficult enough already? ;o
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According to Proleague stats TvZ is Terran favored by over 55% in recent years. If you have trouble with it, it's the way Terran is more affected by the interface than the other races.
If you meant to say ZvT is hard and got the order wrong, well, the Muta nerf would be less problematic overall, but yes, some things can be adjusted there as well.
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A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech.
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Well then that would screw up other matchups, what would yu do early game as Terran if there was a swarm in your mineral line and zerglings or zealots were under it harassing your mineral line?
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On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech.
And it would completely kill all chance for terran marine/medic drops, vulture drops, tank drops, etc to kill mineral lines. :/
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On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech.
That is a very interesting idea. I think it should be tested!
On February 13 2013 03:00 traceurling wrote:
Well then that would screw up other matchups, what would yu do early game as Terran if there was a swarm in your mineral line and zerglings or zealots were under it harassing your mineral line?
A solution to this would be designing all mains to be walled off ling-tight with just a rax and a supply. I think that might stop 4pools as well, or it certainly would if the T delayed scv production slightly. The rest of the map can be designed terran-favored, with the balance being he has to be extremely vigilant vs drops or the swarm will still screw him. Maybe this is too much of a handicap for T, but maybe not. Should be tested imo!
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I wasn't aware ZvZ was boring.
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On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech.
So how do we stop zerglings now ?
And I'm not even talking about other match ups...
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On February 13 2013 07:31 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech. So how do we stop zerglings now ? And I'm not even talking about other match ups...
For ZvZ, more zerglings xD maybe a sunken?
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On February 13 2013 07:55 traceurling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 07:31 corumjhaelen wrote:On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech. So how do we stop zerglings now ? And I'm not even talking about other match ups... For ZvZ, more zerglings xD maybe a sunken?
I cant wait for those 9 pool mirrors.
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On February 13 2013 07:59 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 07:55 traceurling wrote:On February 13 2013 07:31 corumjhaelen wrote:On February 13 2013 00:10 arbiter_md wrote:
A swarm placed on mineral lines on the map would reduce much the power of mutas and create opportunities for lurker openings or hive tech. So how do we stop zerglings now ? And I'm not even talking about other match ups... For ZvZ, more zerglings xD maybe a sunken? I cant wait for those 9 pool mirrors.
What would happen if the spawns were  Loki style, with a swarm also at the back nat? You may not be able to defend with sunkens but it would take fewer lings to hold the ramp that would secure both your main and nat. So then zerglings would become less efficient in greater numbers... Then what would happen?
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
How about all maps can detect ZvZ and forces each player into a NR10 before units can do damage.
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On February 14 2013 16:22 BisuDagger wrote:
How about all maps can detect ZvZ and forces each player into a NR10 before units can do damage.
This would also suck obviously. The point is to increase the variety of games seen in ZvZ, not to shut out early game shenanigans completely. As an analogy, I'd rather watch a PvZ on Fighting Spirit than Blood Bath.
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I think having dark swarm in the base would unsettle the other MUs too much.
One way of doing it is to have 815 styled ramp, along with a backdoor natural with 2 gases and no gases in main. That way early aggression would be rather hard and most players would opt for fast expo build and this produces longer ZvZ games (although not necessarily more intresting lol)
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EPT
