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This is something I seem to be struggling with. I've gotten a good feel for how to handle the myriad of protoss openings, do a timing push to secure my 3rd, and get a good macro army up with upgrades. However, I seem to run into the same couple problems over and over:
-I push aggressively, trying to expand behind it, and end up getting caught in the open too easily, or get stasised to hell, and lose my army without enough units behind it to hold everything.
-I play defensively and get overextended trying to hold the 4th and defend against backstabs on my natural/3rd.
-I play defensively and get smashed by a recall in the main despite turrets/mines, because it forces me to overextend again and I die to attacks on my 3rd/4th if I manage to clean up the recall.
The difficulties I'm having seem to point to a lack of awareness of timings, so my big question is: What's a good cue for when to push out off 3 base these days? The traditional food/upgrade timings seem to be too late to stop a protoss who takes a fast 4th/5th or to match them in macro. Is this accurate or am I just bad?
I don't really have any specific replays unfortunately, since they're buried in thousands of others and I don't know which is which. If I get one, I'll be more than happy to showcase it.
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You take your fourth after you've secured the position to defend it, when you have an economic lead, or when the protoss doesn't have enough units to engage. One of the best times to take a 4th is when your pushing because you should already be maxed therefore you have the minerals to support it and by this time the minerals in your natural should almost be mined out.
Defense and timings sounds like your real problem. Start building science vessels and using emp as well as goliath. It will reduce your chances of stasis or recall. Also, make sure your third expansion is in the correct position (away from the protoss base regardless if it's the natural third or not, it's still closer to the protoss base). Flash normally pushes when he reaches 2-1 upgrades (You should be maxed by this time). You could also do the 2-2 push which is powerful in itself. It isn't used much these days but it's better to be innovative rather then copy every build pros do.
If a protoss plays greedy like taking a fast fourth or fifth, punish him for it. Do a strong timing attack to his main that way you can cut off the reinforcements and hit his second and third expand at the same time (if your playing Fighting Spirit). Tanks, SCV, Marine and Vulture should be included. The shuttle is the most dangerous thing for a Terran to face when pushing so make sure you find some way to neutralize it.
Good luck
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I think BlazeFury01 said everything right. I want to add some points.
I don't play as terran but I play C- toss.
I will tell you what kind of terran is very difficult for toss.
First of all, use of Science Vessel is important. EMP the arbiters whenever you see it. Sometimes toss has idle arbiters that you can safely emp. For toss, it's very frustrating when you had charged 100 mana but find your arbiter just got emped.
During late game, killing obs around the map using few goliaths and vessel with all of your units is important. When you are starting to push out, take out all nearby obs so toss doesn't know which way your are pushing. This prevents toss from casting stasis on you before the battle starts and also you can have tanks in siege mode on good spot. There are so many advantages if you make him blind to your army movement. You can cast emp first, have mines ready, hit them first, etc.
If you successfully killed off all the toss units during your hanbang push, than your 4th, 5th 6th or whatever expansion you want to do are safe. Just places mines on the chokes near your newest expansions. Toss's most of observers should be taken down by you so his special force of 4~6 zealots will be stepping on mines.
If however, your push failed, than that is a loss. (unless opponent is less skilled than you are). So concentrate on optimizing your battle tactics and use that imba siege tanks' splash damage!
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10387 Posts
2-1 timing is all you need to know lol
do a timing push to secure my 3rd
this seems to be the crux of the problem. If you timing push, you should aim to kill your opponent or cripple his economy, otherwise you'll be very behind.
only on certain maps can you take a fourth base safely, like Circuit or Beltway. Most other maps will force the Terran to overextend himself in trying to secure a fast fourth base, thus relying on the Terran to be much better than the Protoss. So instead just aim on taking the third base as quickly as you deem it possible, and push out when you hit 2-1. Assuming that you are macroing properly, you can also just kill the Protoss if he's being overly greedy, so scout well with your harassing vultures.
Keep note of his expansion/gate/tech timings. If he's not expoing, it's likely that he'll be going for fast Arbs or Carriers, or possibly a 2-base all-in. Against 2-base Arbiter plays, practice splitting your army efficiently to deal with Recalls with the smallest amount of units possible, and work on your Vessel micro/awareness to EMP any Vessel you see.
I feel the need to say that everything above is MUCH MUCH easier said than done. It takes an unbelievable amount of skill and practice to have decent TvP management play, so it'll be very frustrating.
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Yah, I mean, you're not saying anything I don't know unfortunately. It sounds like an execution and scouting issue perhaps. TvP is so damn hard -_-
Perhaps I'm trying to be too aggressive with timing pushes and not doing adequate damage with them as well.
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@Eternal Legacy A replay would help us in determining your over all game play too , well let's just say when to take the 4th ? some times if the situation allows you to do so , if you take down a protoss expansion , and most of your armies are at the position well , just make your 4th there . Which is quite the safest thing to do in my opinion . You expand when you move out with your army .
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51706 Posts
On January 20 2012 06:52 mtwow789 wrote:
First of all, use of Science Vessel is important. EMP the arbiters whenever you see it. Sometimes toss has idle arbiters that you can safely emp. For toss, it's very frustrating when you had charged 100 mana but find your arbiter just got emped.
During late game, killing obs around the map using few goliaths and vessel with all of your units is important. When you are starting to push out, take out all nearby obs so toss doesn't know which way your are pushing. This prevents toss from casting stasis on you before the battle starts and also you can have tanks in siege mode on good spot. There are so many advantages if you make him blind to your army movement. You can cast emp first, have mines ready, hit them first, etc.
pretty much this. any observers you can get with goliath/science vessel will just make pushing so much easier.
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10387 Posts
I agree with Sawa that a replay would be good
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Thanks guys. I'll try to post a relevant replay when I play a game that showcases the problem. I hope to get in a lot of games this weekend. I know I have some already but I have so many games that it's impossible for me to tell which is which without watching hundreds of replays. =/
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
plant mines around the routes to your 4th right before you push out, then retreat vultures back to join your main army as you are pushing out, and get your 4th while pushing out.
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United States10579 Posts
What I do is plant a ton of mines at the entrance to my 4th, depot wall behind that, tanks and turrets behind that. A large vulture attack on another base of the toss is good to buy time while the toss army is focused on that. Any small-medium push is good which requires the toss to defend and not put pressure on you.
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On January 20 2012 07:39 ArvickHero wrote:2-1 timing is all you need to know lol this seems to be the crux of the problem. If you timing push, you should aim to kill your opponent or cripple his economy, otherwise you'll be very behind.
I have to agree with this statement/emphasize this once again. If you did a timing push and your goal was to secure your forth, that is the key mistake in the first place in my opinion. That push's aim should be to cripple or destroy your opponent, not secure your forth.
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On January 23 2012 23:05 DKing6297 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:39 ArvickHero wrote:2-1 timing is all you need to know lol do a timing push to secure my 3rd this seems to be the crux of the problem. If you timing push, you should aim to kill your opponent or cripple his economy, otherwise you'll be very behind. I have to agree with this statement/emphasize this once again. If you did a timing push and your goal was to secure your forth, that is the key mistake in the first place in my opinion. That push's aim should be to cripple or destroy your opponent, not secure your forth.
Well look at this from two perspective one is everything goes to plan and I destroyed most of his armies and lost only 40% of my main forces I will try to go a little deeper and contain the protoss natural and If my unit's did do some damage but I suffered heavy casualty because of the army trade and bad engagement .
I can instead take a fourth and extend my tank line to protect my fourth and macro back my troops . Profit ? Either way try to always get an expo down when you move out with your forces . It's the basic's of a good broodwar player.
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I think terran should kill off toss's 4th and 5th with push. Unless push was 2-1 push.. But containing natural is difficult unless you win by large on initial battle. I don't think retreating after winning the initial battle is a good idea. Toss can easily replenish army if all the expos are intact.
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EPT
