EPTi am aware of the dragoon micro trick but i am only mid 1700s and its hard for me to pull off consistently, so i do not want to depend on it for now.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 428
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fefil
92 Posts
i am aware of the dragoon micro trick but i am only mid 1700s and its hard for me to pull off consistently, so i do not want to depend on it for now. | ||
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TT1
Canada10104 Posts
The variation w/ that b.o is how fast you get your 2nd and 3rd gates, if you dont see them making a CC on the low ground or if they move down their ramp late (T should make their nat CC at 3:40~4:00 at the latest when they go gas exp) you should probe cut and add +2 gates asap (say at like 31/33, before making an additional pylon). So keep an eye out for how fast T moves down their ramp, if he does move down at the proper time try to confirm his exp w/ ur goons. Versus 2 fact or 1 fact marine/vult/tank pressure (FD), kite back to ur main w/ goons while macroing off 3 gates. If you have 4 goons (or more) target t's tank if its too far up. 4 goons is the magic number because you 2 shot tanks, 3 goons 2 shots a vult. Those are important breakpoints to remember in small micro scenarios. You really only wanna focus fire tanks and sometimes vults w/ ur goons, the rest of the time u can just a move backwards so your goons dont freeze. The reason why you a-move backwards is so your goons dont walk into t's army, you always want them to be within attacking range of their marines while u a-move back. Make sure you re-position your goons if they're out of range/aren't attacking. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
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TT1
Canada10104 Posts
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fefil
92 Posts
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Jealous
10413 Posts
On July 31 2019 23:02 fefil wrote: How do I ensure I am able to get 11 gas 13 core without cutting probes? Split your workers well, send new workers to new mineral patches in the order in which they seem to be most efficient to least efficient, send Probes to make buildings just before they hit the required mineral count and send them back immediately after placing the building, etc. Basically just be clean - pretty common sense IMO. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
On August 01 2019 00:49 Jealous wrote: Split your workers well, send new workers to new mineral patches in the order in which they seem to be most efficient to least efficient, send Probes to make buildings just before they hit the required mineral count and send them back immediately after placing the building, etc. Basically just be clean - pretty common sense IMO. I guess its not possible on maps with minerals on the north side? | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
On July 31 2019 11:16 TT1 wrote: np Also, tt1, isnt it dangerous to park my goons outside his main? Time and time again they manage to sneak by a couple vultures and lay mines. So while my goons are kiting back they walk directly into the mines. How do i know which i should do? | ||
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fearthequeen
United States790 Posts
On August 01 2019 02:30 fefil wrote: Also, tt1, isnt it dangerous to park my goons outside his main? Time and time again they manage to sneak by a couple vultures and lay mines. So while my goons are kiting back they walk directly into the mines. How do i know which i should do? I'm by no means a Protoss expert... but I was taught that if you suspect 2 fact you just return to your natural for this exact reason and try to get out a obs/shuttle with zealots ASAP. It's dual purpose because you will need your goons back if it's a dropship opening as well (which looks similar to 2 fact) | ||
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TT1
Canada10104 Posts
On August 01 2019 02:30 fefil wrote: Also, tt1, isnt it dangerous to park my goons outside his main? Time and time again they manage to sneak by a couple vultures and lay mines. So while my goons are kiting back they walk directly into the mines. How do i know which i should do? It's ok to keep goons at his ramp so you can get good trades when he moves down, just cap it to like 4 goons. Don't send any additional goons, keep them at your nat. Basically when he moves down, poke as much as you can. If he runs his vults by you still have goons at your nat to defend w/ (make a few pylons @ ur nat if you don't have enough goons). Also, if he runs his vults by you can keep poking at his army, just make sure you take a safe path back to your main, don't walk by the most obvious routes (for example if you're playing on FS bring your goons back to your nat via your 3rd). That said, if you wanna play safer you can just move your goons back at like ~4:10-~4:20. Just play around and see which method you prefer. The important part is understanding the timings, if you can deduce that T is likely going 2 fact then countering it becomes much easier. It becomes a trial and error experiment, keep practicing and refine your build so you can have as many goons out as possible off 3 gates. Btw, you won't have time to get shuttles and zeals vs a well executed 2 fact timing. You have to rely on good 3g goon/obs micro. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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fefil
92 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
On July 31 2019 02:18 jello_biafra wrote: I PM'd you, not sure if it can be posted here? Why wouldn't it be allowed to be posted here? Genuinely curious what the reason would be. Here's an invite link, at least I think that's what they're talking about. I don't really ever use it. https://discord.gg/fxBTN52 | ||
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Counc1l
33 Posts
On August 01 2019 21:17 Dazed. wrote: Anyone have a clue why zergs like junwi used to do 2 hatch but open with a 13-14 gas timing? Was it merely a feature of terrans opening 2 rax, necessitating a very very early sunken, or what? I didn't watch junwi's games (only 1 so far) but 13/14 gas is pretty economic. If he droned up, this extractor timing would be characteristic of a 2.5 hatchery build (if such a concept existed at the time), which I guess is semi-economic while getting lurkers out relatively quickly. A 13/14 gas would also compensate for the time that he would make a sunken colony vs a terran 2 raxing on one base, as terrans on 2 rax in one base can do moveouts well before 5 minutes or otherwise force fast zergling production which is bad for zerg economy. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
In a game where I get to 4 bases, would you say its worth it to just send out a “fan” of 6~ zealots to clear them? | ||
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Jealous
10413 Posts
On August 07 2019 00:28 fefil wrote: Anyone have any advice for clearing out mines in PvT? It seems like it costs me so much APM, especially before obs speed. Just mines scattered around the map. In a game where I get to 4 bases, would you say its worth it to just send out a “fan” of 6~ zealots to clear them? In the mid-game, I just keep my Observer on hotkey 1 and 4-6 Dragoons on hotkey 2 and just do 1 move, do something else, 2 a. I don't get speed until after Arbiter tech if at all, because otherwise you are delaying your Arbiter and your gas is better spent on Templar outside of that anyway. In general, you will never clear all the mines in every game if you're against a competent player, when the time is right you need to just clear the mines that are important then and there. For example, if you are going to take an expansion, clear mines en route to that expansion before sending the Probe. If you are about to engage an army, clear the mines up until the Siege Tank line's firing range with Dragoons and try to drag the rest with Zealots. Throwing army away shouldn't be the way you deal with mines, even if you're banking resources, because you need as much army as possible to handle/delay pushes, even if you're re-maxing consistently. To add to this point, I haven't ever seen anyone ever do this, and given the wealth of knowledge/practice/experience top players have, I'd say it boils down to it not being worth it for anyone. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28917 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1606 Posts
On August 07 2019 00:28 fefil wrote: Anyone have any advice for clearing out mines in PvT? It seems like it costs me so much APM, especially before obs speed. Just mines scattered around the map. In a game where I get to 4 bases, would you say its worth it to just send out a “fan” of 6~ zealots to clear them? Obs speed should usually be done by the time you have 4 bases. Much sooner if the Terran is aggressive with vulture raids and or vulture drops. Advice for clearing mines without obs speed though? Besides keeping a close eye on dragoons and observers, try to clear the mines in the direct path where you want to move your army to (path from your natural to terrans natural, path from your natural to terrans 3rd base) If the Terran is turtling and you feel he isn't going to be pushing anytime soon, clear the mines that are in path to his base or mines that block your expansions. Some terrans like Artosis generally don't vulture harass in PvT and just want that solid 1-2 upgrade timing. Against those kind of players you can surely skip or delay obs speed. Against good terrans who know how to vulture harass, you're going to want to get obs speed a whole lot faster. | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
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Jealous
10413 Posts
On August 07 2019 03:55 fefil wrote: Thanks. How many obs do you guys typically make? Such a broad question, I know. And possibly hard to answer. But I usually have 1 in his main, 2 on key paths, and 2 with my army. I think i should make a few more and patrol them in areas of the map. Might be handy to deal with mines. But I already make 5, any more than that is a lot of gas and a decent chunk of supply isnt it? From what I've seen of top level players, this is very situational and possibly personal preference-based, as mentioned above by Ending Life. I distinctly recall some games from JangBi/Stork where they have upwards of 10 Obs on the map, basically granting full vision, although admittedly that recollection is from the late KeSPA era. In other situations, it may not be necessary. For example, my general MO in PvT on maps like FS is to deny the 3rd gas as long as possible. For this approach to have merit, I not only have to know if Terran is going for a fast 3rd, I also have to know if they are going for an aggressive push, or if they are going Dropships, etc. The different scenarios from Terran's choice decides what I do with my army/obs. Let's take the example of a Terran going for a fast 3rd, off of 2 Factories. My first Obs goes directly into their main (or loops around to avoid Turrets), checks to see if they have Starport, then parks on top of their Factories so I can keep an eye on Factory count. My second Obs goes to a position outside of their natural, so I can see if they run any Vultures out, and I keep some Dragoons there to dissuade them from doing so, or block them and damage them as they try to slip out. My third Obs, I send to the high ground/ramp area of the 3rd, so that I can see if a Command Center is building to be floated, and I can see if his army is pushing to take the 3rd, and I leave a Dragoon on the ramp of the 3rd to prevent Vulture running by and laying defensive mines, or running by to avoid my Dragoons at the front of his natural. This way, with three Observers, I have all of the vision/detection I need to deal with what Terran is doing. If they successfully run by the Dragoons outside of his natural, I simply complete my sim city in my own natural/3rd with a Dragoon in the Pylon gaps, and send the Observer at the natural back towards my own natural with Dragoons in tow to clear out any mines that are on my rally path. Now, if the Terran is playing with Dropships, I definitely leave at least one Observer in my main/nat area, for example. So, the short answer is that it depends. In general, I don't often have to make more than 5 observers in a game, but most players at ~2000 aren't very active on the map either and I do tend to struggle with players who are. Extra observers patrol between bases, but you can also have a Zealot accomplish the same thing. One Zealot covers 3 bases on FS quite easily. | ||
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