On November 17 2018 14:47 oshibori_probe wrote: Whats the ideal response vs a 2gate PvP if you open the standard 1gate gas->core->zealot? Assume that the map is either a low ground main or a main without a ramp.
If there's different reactions for 2 gate variations like 2gate proxy, 2 gate proxied in your base, a standard 2 gate, or 2gate with a shield battery in your main, please explain how you deal with each.
Specific answers other than perfect goon control would be much appreciated, cause I'm tired of having to hide pylons around the map while explaining to my opponents that they are only winning because they are bad.
If they go 2 gate, you can remove two workers from gas and while maintaining constant zealot production, get gateway then cyber core and transition to dragoon when possible (I saw in a Bisu Bnet Attack fpvod that he transitioned to dragoons after having made like 5 zealots). If possible, it is also very important not to double queue production at this point. Also, sometimes it's possible to get unlucky and scout it after you've made the cyber core, in which case you should remove 2 probes from mining gas and get a new gateway and zealots immediately then get dragoons as soon as possible.
Even if you respond properly, it's still tough to hold the attack but in terms of holding the attack, I would say it's important to constantly keep using probe drill against zealots (in my experience, it's not enough to just drill. attack and watch but you need to keep drilling and attacking back and forth or else you will probably still keep losing probes) and to pull damaged probes by selecting to clicking the farthest mineral patch from it (so that the path is straightest).
I know a lot less about how to follow up but I guess I would say if they expanded faster, its okay to expand a bit later yourself or to just go 3 gate dragoon and try to bust them. Reaver drop might be a possibility too. If they didn't expand quickly, I'm not really sure and don't really have any good advice but I guess its good to play pretty standard unless you've lost too many probes and maybe it could be good to go 3 gate to contain them or go for faster expand since they should have an inferior army.
On November 17 2018 14:47 oshibori_probe wrote: Specific answers other than perfect goon control would be much appreciated, cause I'm tired of having to hide pylons around the map while explaining to my opponents that they are only winning because they are bad.
Try not being bitter and pathetic and just accept your losses.
The question is why to go for a single gateway on a flat map in the first place. Something imo is good on these kind of maps is the Bonyth build with 10/12 gateways into 3 fast zeals. Stap zeal production at that point and transition into fast goons. Expand quickly and follow up with range + cannons/robo.
On November 17 2018 14:47 oshibori_probe wrote: Whats the ideal response vs a 2gate PvP if you open the standard 1gate gas->core->zealot? Assume that the map is either a low ground main or a main without a ramp.
If there's different reactions for 2 gate variations like 2gate proxy, 2 gate proxied in your base, a standard 2 gate, or 2gate with a shield battery in your main, please explain how you deal with each.
Specific answers other than perfect goon control would be much appreciated, cause I'm tired of having to hide pylons around the map while explaining to my opponents that they are only winning because they are bad.
Basically u have to be very active with your 1st dragoon if the map has a ramp, 1st zealot hold position on the ramp with 1 or 2 probes behind, u gotta take ur 1st goon outside ur main and try to poke and damage the zealots that are incoming while u skip range and get a 2nd gate. if u're not confident enough in your control u can always play it safe like zealot on the ramp 2/3 probes behind ur zealot and goons behind ur probes, if u're really scared of the 2 gate, get a shield battery. if zealots manage to get into ur base, try not to lose many probes and kite ur dragoons as best as u can.
if the map has no ramp, like HBR, i dont know if going 13 core, 14 zealot is ideal. mb 10 gate, 16 pylon is better, not 100% sure, cause in flat maps i go 2 gate 5 zealots > nexus most of the time.
tbh when the turn rate is really bad like TR8 TR10h, i always go 2 gate or proxi 9/9 gate. no point in trying to stop a 2 gate rush with dragoon micro under unplayable conditions.
On November 17 2018 14:47 oshibori_probe wrote: Whats the ideal response vs a 2gate PvP if you open the standard 1gate gas->core->zealot? Assume that the map is either a low ground main or a main without a ramp.
If there's different reactions for 2 gate variations like 2gate proxy, 2 gate proxied in your base, a standard 2 gate, or 2gate with a shield battery in your main, please explain how you deal with each.
Specific answers other than perfect goon control would be much appreciated, cause I'm tired of having to hide pylons around the map while explaining to my opponents that they are only winning because they are bad.
Basically u have to be very active with your 1st dragoon if the map has a ramp, 1st zealot hold position on the ramp with 1 or 2 probes behind, u gotta take ur 1st goon outside ur main and try to poke and damage the zealots that are incoming while u skip range and get a 2nd gate. if u're not confident enough in your control u can always play it safe like zealot on the ramp 2/3 probes behind ur zealot and goons behind ur probes, if u're really scared of the 2 gate, get a shield battery. if zealots manage to get into ur base, try not to lose many probes and kite ur dragoons as best as u can.
if the map has no ramp, like HBR, i dont know if going 13 core, 14 zealot is ideal. mb 10 gate, 16 pylon is better, not 100% sure, cause in flat maps i go 2 gate 5 zealots > nexus most of the time.
tbh when the turn rate is really bad like TR8 TR10h, i always go 2 gate or proxi 9/9 gate. no point in trying to stop a 2 gate rush with dragoon micro under unplayable conditions.
Based on my conversations with Dewalt, this is accurate.
Does mind make a huge mistake here by attacking killers nat instead of his 3rd at the 12 minute mark? Also would this map be playable zvt in today's meta or just as difficult as back then?
Usually it's a bad idea to attack on a diagonal since it opens the chance for a big counter. Killing the Z 3rd means nothing if they siege your production with Lurkers, and it's even worse if they get defilers there.
On November 23 2018 12:46 kidcrash wrote: https://youtu.be/hyUymN48ON4 Does mind make a huge mistake here by attacking killers nat instead of his 3rd at the 12 minute mark? Also would this map be playable zvt in today's meta or just as difficult as back then?
I think attacking the natural is normally better (at least that's the more common option when it comes to tank pushing) but attacking third is an ok option too. Even though third is harder to protect, the drawback is that Killer might've been able to backstab Mind if Mind attacked the third which has an ok chance of being game ending. Even though Mind lost to Killer, the dark swarm timing required to survive that attack was really sharp and if Killer got the dark swarms out like 5-10 seconds later, he might have taken serious damage or even lost the game. Also, I am no terran expert but if I were to guess, one of the most common ways of winning TvZ is by tank pushing the natural (this might not be true in modern pro meta but I think it was likely true in the past and still true among non-pros nowadays)
On November 25 2018 14:11 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Is there any PvT BO that starts with 10 gate 11 gas then makes 2 zealots before cyber?
idk but I think too much gas would be banked with a build like that. i can only imagine like some sort of robo + dt followup with that much gas.
I don't think it's an "official" build of any kind but this is what I do in a lot of PvT.
10 gate 11 gas - put only 2 on 13 zealot 15 pylon 17 zealot 20 cyber - put 3rd probe on 21 pylon 23 dragoon/range 27 nexus
Another variant is to place the 21 pylon at their 3rd on FS and do proxy robo into reaver, just to make them rage extra hard and fuck their day up.
This loses to:
1. Walls 2. Good micro 3. In-base "walls" with good micro 4. Other stuff
This beats:
1. Bad players 2. Players worse than you if you're not that good 3. Players who don't wall and don't know how to micro vs zealot (see 1) 2. Players who don't wall and don't wall in-base (see 1) 1. Most terrans up until 1700 or so
1. Bad players 2. Players worse than you if you're not that good 3. Players who don't wall and don't know how to micro vs zealot (see 1) 2. Players who don't wall and don't wall in-base (see 1) 1. Most terrans up until 1700 or so
GG
That's the autosuggestion based on flawed perception that draws many of those in search of easy to earn self-esteem to the Protoss race. Don't know if it's worth arguing seriously here but I give it a try.
You have to admit that the "2 zealot vs 2-3marines"-scenario, built into BW by accident, is quite a treat for all Protoss players starting out. Especially on ramp-less maps (because of follow-ups). Especially with a little lag (or more). If Terran (can) do the solid wall (that doesn't come natually btw, it has to be learned map by map, starting position by starting position), have fun with fast (and possibly proxy) goon-builds or first-scout probes. If you do the in-base "walls", still harder to micro your ass off with 40HP marines and dumb workers than to attack with the 100+60HP zealots... Disruption guaranteed, straight out win possible. Quite stressful to find out if it's only 2 zealots during all this - or to prepare in time for the goon that follows... while the nexus is already going up... Terrans who FE btw don't do this because they're too dumb to wall but because they don't want to be behind from the start against more economic openings from Protoss. These Protoss openings comfortably still come with a strong goon force to repel Terran's counter pressure that has only a very slim timing, and they still allow Protoss to soft-punish the Terran's FE. If Protoss went for a goon heavier opening vs a Terran FE on the other hand then the numbers are crazy (4-6 goons against 1 (!) tank), and Protoss still ends up with 3 base against 2.
Must be nice to be a bad player as Protoss in PvT.
On November 25 2018 14:11 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Is there any PvT BO that starts with 10 gate 11 gas then makes 2 zealots before cyber?
idk but I think too much gas would be banked with a build like that. i can only imagine like some sort of robo + dt followup with that much gas.
I don't think it's an "official" build of any kind but this is what I do in a lot of PvT.
10 gate 11 gas - put only 2 on 13 zealot 15 pylon 17 zealot 20 cyber - put 3rd probe on 21 pylon 23 dragoon/range 27 nexus
Another variant is to place the 21 pylon at their 3rd on FS and do proxy robo into reaver, just to make them rage extra hard and fuck their day up.
This loses to:
1. Walls 2. Good micro 3. In-base "walls" with good micro 4. Other stuff
This beats:
1. Bad players 2. Players worse than you if you're not that good 3. Players who don't wall and don't know how to micro vs zealot (see 1) 2. Players who don't wall and don't wall in-base (see 1) 1. Most terrans up until 1700 or so
GG
Thank you. I went BBS against this and thought there was some sort of foul play. Guess I just got unlucky
Hmm yea that's not really a PvT opening. It's possible he just went 14 zealot, scouted your BBS and continued to make zeals but if it was blind he's just bad and hard-countered you.
On November 26 2018 01:30 f10eqq wrote: Hmm yea that's not really a PvT opening. It's possible he just went 14 zealot, scouted your BBS and continued to make zeals but if it was blind he's just bad and hard-countered you. Edit- Actually he could be going 1 gate robo since you need a ton of gas for robo + support bay + shuttle speed. Although it's more likely he didn't know what he was doing.
Nah, this guy was good. It was on iccup and he has 13 wins 0 losses, playing vs high ranks (beat an A rank on a 16 min game for example). Fresh account too.
He didn't scout me nor my scouts coming from the center before making both Zealots. He also made the Gateway close to the Nexus and used his first Zealot to block the ramp instead of attacking. This was on FS.
1. Bad players 2. Players worse than you if you're not that good 3. Players who don't wall and don't know how to micro vs zealot (see 1) 2. Players who don't wall and don't wall in-base (see 1) 1. Most terrans up until 1700 or so
GG
That's the autosuggestion based on flawed perception that draws many of those in search of easy to earn self-esteem to the Protoss race. Don't know if it's worth arguing seriously here but I give it a try.
You have to admit that the "2 zealot vs 2-3marines"-scenario, built into BW by accident, is quite a treat for all Protoss players starting out. Especially on ramp-less maps (because of follow-ups). Especially with a little lag (or more). If Terran (can) do the solid wall (that doesn't come natually btw, it has to be learned map by map, starting position by starting position), have fun with fast (and possibly proxy) goon-builds or first-scout probes. If you do the in-base "walls", still harder to micro your ass off with 40HP marines and dumb workers than to attack with the 100+60HP zealots... Disruption guaranteed, straight out win possible. Quite stressful to find out if it's only 2 zealots during all this - or to prepare in time for the goon that follows... while the nexus is already going up... Terrans who FE btw don't do this because they're too dumb to wall but because they don't want to be behind from the start against more economic openings from Protoss. These Protoss openings comfortably still come with a strong goon force to repel Terran's counter pressure that has only a very slim timing, and they still allow Protoss to soft-punish the Terran's FE. If Protoss went for a goon heavier opening vs a Terran FE on the other hand then the numbers are crazy (4-6 goons against 1 (!) tank), and Protoss still ends up with 3 base against 2.
Must be nice to be a bad player as Protoss in PvT.
Mmm I love them Terran tears, give me more please.
On November 26 2018 15:41 Highgamer wrote: If you can't argue against what I wrote then I guess I'm right.
I don't even understand what you're trying to say in half of your post.
That's the autosuggestion based on flawed perception that draws many of those in search of easy to earn self-esteem to the Protoss race.
All of my what??? Just how high are you?
You have to admit that the "2 zealot vs 2-3marines"-scenario, built into BW by accident
???
I don't even understand what you're trying argue or off of what basis, to be honest. I don't know what prompted you to go on this rant. All I understood was that you were complaining about Protoss being OP and Terran being soooo hard. Is that what your point was? I'm sorry if I'm not jumping at the opportunity to address your balance whine.
EDIT: Protoss people know how to have fun, enjoy vast build diversity, don't have to strive to be number one and don't let others judge them. Terran people play five games, lose all of them, and then quit playing for the day, jerking off to a Flash FPVOD, are trying to validate themselves by playing the "hardest" race, and are horribly bent out of shape when they can't play 200/200 Solitaire while failing to get their Supply Depots in time.
1. Bad players 2. Players worse than you if you're not that good 3. Players who don't wall and don't know how to micro vs zealot (see 1) 2. Players who don't wall and don't wall in-base (see 1) 1. Most terrans up until 1700 or so
GG
That's the autosuggestion based on flawed perception that draws many of those in search of easy to earn self-esteem to the Protoss race. Don't know if it's worth arguing seriously here but I give it a try.
You have to admit that the "2 zealot vs 2-3marines"-scenario, built into BW by accident, is quite a treat for all Protoss players starting out. Especially on ramp-less maps (because of follow-ups). Especially with a little lag (or more). If Terran (can) do the solid wall (that doesn't come natually btw, it has to be learned map by map, starting position by starting position), have fun with fast (and possibly proxy) goon-builds or first-scout probes. If you do the in-base "walls", still harder to micro your ass off with 40HP marines and dumb workers than to attack with the 100+60HP zealots... Disruption guaranteed, straight out win possible. Quite stressful to find out if it's only 2 zealots during all this - or to prepare in time for the goon that follows... while the nexus is already going up... Terrans who FE btw don't do this because they're too dumb to wall but because they don't want to be behind from the start against more economic openings from Protoss. These Protoss openings comfortably still come with a strong goon force to repel Terran's counter pressure that has only a very slim timing, and they still allow Protoss to soft-punish the Terran's FE. If Protoss went for a goon heavier opening vs a Terran FE on the other hand then the numbers are crazy (4-6 goons against 1 (!) tank), and Protoss still ends up with 3 base against 2.
Must be nice to be a bad player as Protoss in PvT.
Dunno what you're getting at.
Autosuggestion based on flawed perception? What autosuggestion? It's not clear what "that" refers to.
As for the main paragraph....it sounds like a rant. What do you mean by 2zlot vs 2-3 marines is "built into BW by accident"? That sounds like garbage nonsense. The whole game was largely built by accident. I agree it's an easier attack to do as protoss than it is to defend as terran. No doubt. Especially in lag. But you make it sound like it's absurdly powerful...which it isn't.
"too dumb to wall"
When was the last time you saw Flash, Last, Sharp, or even Leta wall? Oh. 12years ago. Not walling is not "dumb", it's the standard response. Most terrans also don't FE, they go FD into expo. Most Terrans, when they do true rax FE, use good sim city and more or less have something resembling a wall.
These Protoss openings comfortably still come with a strong goon force to repel Terran's counter pressure that has only a very slim timing, and they still allow Protoss to soft-punish the Terran's FE
Only if the terran has horrible micro or TR8. Decent control defends this comfortably and then protoss is in lower goon count and either has a hard time defending harass or has to expand more carefully. Or if he has normal goon count then he cut probes and is suffering economically.
If Protoss went for a goon heavier opening vs a Terran FE on the other hand then the numbers are crazy (4-6 goons against 1 (!) tank), and Protoss still ends up with 3 base against 2.
3 goons against 1 tank, 6 rines, and vultures is standard. Not exactly too ridiculous. Very similar expansion timing or both players. Little quicker for protoss, but of course terran needs fewer bases to be comfortable. Only situations that give 4+ goons vs 1 tank is if terran goes rax FE, in which case...duh. You skipped a factory for a CC. Or the other case is a fast two gate goon or 3 gate goon build...in which case terran gets the faster expansion and as long as cautious is in good shape.
How any of these situations end up in protoss on 3 bases I have no idea what you are talking about. In no situation does protoss have double nex and 6 goons at first tank timing.
EPT
