EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 323
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
i think most pros would suggest most players just play completely standard builds (1 rax fe, 1 gate fe for example) because its the fastest way to improve. also, some builds pros use only work against pros because the level of play is different and the players are already expecting certain plays from each other. thats how it is for dota at least; some strats/plays being too subtle for the general playerbase and only applicable against players of similar level | ||
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On June 23 2017 10:25 evilfatsh1t wrote: some strats/plays being too subtle for the general playerbase and only applicable against players of similar level This is important to note. I've heard people complaining about things like "I took 2 SCVs off gas and then put them back on once I killed the Probe and went 2 Fac Port all-in, but he went blind 3 Gate Dragoon and didn't do 21 Nex so I lost, wtf?" And the sad truth is that at the lower competitive level, "mindgames" of that nature simply don't work. It's like pre-operational children who can't tell that a wide short glass contains as much water as a tall thin glass, even if you pour it from one to the other; they also can't tell that if there are 3 cookies, you have 2 and they have 1, and you split their cookie in half, that that is a bad deal. Similarly, low level players see you making a Lair which you cancel after their Probe dies and you go 3 Hatch Hydra bust, and they will have 10 Cannons at the front anyway because they simply don't know any better. At that point, you've played yourself. As to the more specific inquiries to the question, besides what has already been covered, I feel that building placement for Protoss in particular is mostly about what works well for you but also follows the key guidelines such as "how to wall my nat in PvZ" and "how to Pylon so that Vulture run-by is less likely to get to the mineral line." After that, I often marvel at how some higher-level players can place their buildings in seemingly disorganized ways and still macro like champs. I prefer the Horang2 building style, which is reminiscent of Fastest maps and the like. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
My thinking is, an upgrade will make my units about 5-10% stronger overall, and last forever, so it'll pay for itself *very* quickly. Plus, there's no way to make upgrades research faster, but you can always build more unit production buildings, so you should get upgrades started as soon as possible. But maybe at the pro level the builds are so tight that they can't sacrifice *any* units early on or they would die immediately? How good do you need to be before it becomes more important to get a couple extra units *now* and delay upgrades? | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
Also I can see it kind of being fun using their builds at the same time to gain a advantage over certain lower level players. What I mean is I've studied Bisu enough to copy his building placements and timings(to a degree) but it's just not as fun playing someone else's strategy as much it is to develop my own strategy and make it work. Which is one of the greatest things about Brood War is it's not mandatory to play pros strategies or anyone else's strategy. However having many different strategy options and using a wide array of different strategies is all apart of the mind game too(anticipating different strategies). | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
On June 23 2017 11:50 Luddite wrote: I have a sort of similar question, regarding Pros vs Average Joes. I'm often surprised by how late the pros get their upgrades. Like, well into the late game with 3+ bases they'll still just be on 1/1 or 2/1 upgrades, and only one upgrade building going. Of course this varies wildly from game to game, and depends on the matchup and their strategy. Still, their upgrades (of extra attack/armor, not the qualitative upgrades) seem to come out a bit later than I'd expect, given their excellent mechanics and strong economy. My thinking is, an upgrade will make my units about 5-10% stronger overall, and last forever, so it'll pay for itself *very* quickly. Plus, there's no way to make upgrades research faster, but you can always build more unit production buildings, so you should get upgrades started as soon as possible. But maybe at the pro level the builds are so tight that they can't sacrifice *any* units early on or they would die immediately? How good do you need to be before it becomes more important to get a couple extra units *now* and delay upgrades? upgrade timings are highly dependent on the matchup so its impossible to give general advice on when to get them and when to skip. the best tip anyone could probably give you is, if you can afford it, get it. simple as that. if you cant afford it (ie. you sacrifice production in order to get it), then you are either getting it too early (excluding specific timings) or your economy just isnt good enough, and if you get it too late then it doesnt matter how many units you have, the opponents will be more efficient with theirs (eg. 24 dragoons with +1 vs 20 dragoons with +2, 20 dragoons wins). maybe it might seem like pros are getting the upgrades late because they simply couldnt be bothered getting it and they know theyll win through sheer macro anyway, i dunno. generally i havent seen pros deliberately skip upgrades when they could afford it though On June 23 2017 12:02 TheGreatOne wrote: Okay thank you for the answers guy that pretty much answers my questions. I'm not trying to give away my strategy or brag about my strategy i'm just being honest about my strategy. I'm trying to incorporate old school builds into a new school strategy. I'm also using somewhat old school building placements while incorporating new school building placements. Also why try to copy the pros builds exactly because a lot of even lower level players know their strategies and it's just not as fun to me copying their builds knowing I won't be able to perform it exactly as they do. Also I can see it kind of being fun using their builds at the same time to gain a advantage over certain lower level players. What I mean is I've studied Bisu enough to copy his building placements and timings(to a degree) but it's just not as fun playing someone else's strategy as much it is to develop my own strategy and make it work. Which is one of the greatest things about Brood War is it's not mandatory to play pros strategies or anyone else's strategy. However having many different strategy options and using a wide array of different strategies is all apart of the mind game too(anticipating different strategies). it seems you are greatly simplifying strats and build orders. if this was still 1997 your approach would be fine, but now the game has developed to the point where 99% of builds are figured out already. copying bisu's strats doesnt mean you are simply using HIS strat. its a strat that all protoss use because it is deemed the most optimal for what you want to do. if you try and improvise during the early stages of the game despite the most efficient path already being laid out for you, chances are youre only going to cripple yourself and someone who actually understands the game will just steamroll you because of economy/army difference or taking advantage of a timing. dont copy builds because they seem like auto win. copy the builds so you can try and learn what the reasoning for the build being created like so was in the first place. its kind of like maths. some people only memorise formulas, whereas others actually try to learn how the formulas were derived in the first place. the latter group of people turn out to be the guys who really do well at higher level maths later where their application of maths has to become more creative rather than simply copy and pasting formulas. you have to aim to do the same in starcraft fun fact since i mentioned maths. in korean high schools students actually have to be able to derive formulas themselves and their maths tests' standards eclipse western schools. maybe thats why koreans get better at games faster too (although i think chinese and japanese students probably follow a similar curriculum) | ||
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Highgamer
1441 Posts
On June 23 2017 11:50 Luddite wrote: I have a sort of similar question, regarding Pros vs Average Joes. I'm often surprised by how late the pros get their upgrades. Like, well into the late game with 3+ bases they'll still just be on 1/1 or 2/1 upgrades, and only one upgrade building going. Of course this varies wildly from game to game, and depends on the matchup and their strategy. Still, their upgrades (of extra attack/armor, not the qualitative upgrades) seem to come out a bit later than I'd expect, given their excellent mechanics and strong economy. My thinking is, an upgrade will make my units about 5-10% stronger overall, and last forever, so it'll pay for itself *very* quickly. Plus, there's no way to make upgrades research faster, but you can always build more unit production buildings, so you should get upgrades started as soon as possible. But maybe at the pro level the builds are so tight that they can't sacrifice *any* units early on or they would die immediately? How good do you need to be before it becomes more important to get a couple extra units *now* and delay upgrades? I guess it's different from mu to mu, but for Terran on pro-lvl, as far as I can tell, upgrades in the midgame are not just something you get when you can afford it, but you get a certain upgrade for certain timings/pushes. In TvZ e.g. you get the early +1 specifically vs the mutas, in TvT you specifically rush to the +2 attack for tank vs tank battles, in TvP you have an exact plan when to get your +1 attack so that it finishes right on time with your science facility later on to get +2/+1 around 13 minutes for your big push. On pro-lvl, you really don't have excess resources to just afford a second ebay/armory, you need all the minerals and gas for something else. Especially early on there is just no room for upgrade-investments as basically every unit you build from, let's say, 2 factories or 3-4 rax has to be used to survive. All the resources you can gather are planned for some other kind of investment. Later on they get all the upgrades of course. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
On June 23 2017 16:06 evilfatsh1t wrote: it seems you are greatly simplifying strats and build orders. if this was still 1997 your approach would be fine, but now the game has developed to the point where 99% of builds are figured out already. copying bisu's strats doesnt mean you are simply using HIS strat. its a strat that all protoss use because it is deemed the most optimal for what you want to do. if you try and improvise during the early stages of the game despite the most efficient path already being laid out for you, chances are youre only going to cripple yourself and someone who actually understands the game will just steamroll you because of economy/army difference or taking advantage of a timing. dont copy builds because they seem like auto win. copy the builds so you can try and learn what the reasoning for the build being created like so was in the first place. its kind of like maths. some people only memorise formulas, whereas others actually try to learn how the formulas were derived in the first place. the latter group of people turn out to be the guys who really do well at higher level maths later where their application of maths has to become more creative rather than simply copy and pasting formulas. you have to aim to do the same in starcraft fun fact since i mentioned maths. in korean high schools students actually have to be able to derive formulas themselves and their maths tests' standards eclipse western schools. maybe thats why koreans get better at games faster too (although i think chinese and japanese students probably follow a similar curriculum) It also seems the more I try to play old school builds I lose to some new school strategy. The thing is I just refuse to play like all other protoss are playing nowadays "every game". To me it just takes away from the natural fun of the game playing the same build over and over again. However if the build works good I can see it being fun if it's winning games. A game can be fun even if I lose or someone loses too though. Also Bisu does change his strategy from game to game usually not always but usually. Don't quote me on this but I don't know if he actually changes his strategy every game or not because I don't have unlimited time to watch every game but from what I know he does change his strategy quite often in a subtle way. I see what your saying evilfatsh1t and thank you very much!  | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
Still, every map has something. Would it be possible to like positing your army around a tree and weight to ambush them there? | ||
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Jealous
10239 Posts
On June 24 2017 13:54 Luddite wrote: Do you ever think about the cover from doodads on the map? It just strike me that they give the same miss chance as high ground- almost 50%. That's huge! If you could fight a major battle under cover, it could be game-winning, especially if your opponent isn't thinking about it. But I guess most maps don't have many doodads that give cover. Still, every map has something. Would it be possible to like positing your army around a tree and weight to ambush them there? This concept was explored on this map: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/169_Demon's_Forest It didn't go well. In all honesty, the opportunities to use mid-map doodads to your advantage are few and far between. You should only have the capacity to use them proactively in low-unit micro scenarios, but most of those are dynamic anyway, meaning you can maybe absorb one shot at one point before you kite Dragoons or whatever. Doodads and terrain often inhibit movement more than they complement aggression. In theory it is possible to siege a tank under a tree on FS and profit from that, but no one in their right mind is going to invest that much effort into it or hinge their build on that. That's novice thinking. Ambushing and waiting in general are possible but become less likely as the skill level of the match climbs, because everyone should have decent map presence/awareness. Doodads are again practically a non-factor. Your signature sums it up for competitive play, basically. Maybe look towards Snipers Bald Locks x0x GosuX 1.356 or something. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
theres an iccup map that uses doodad miss chance: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/DeserTec | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On June 24 2017 15:28 Jealous wrote: This concept was explored on this map: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/169_Demon's_Forest It didn't go well. In all honesty, the opportunities to use mid-map doodads to your advantage are few and far between. You should only have the capacity to use them proactively in low-unit micro scenarios, but most of those are dynamic anyway, meaning you can maybe absorb one shot at one point before you kite Dragoons or whatever. Doodads and terrain often inhibit movement more than they complement aggression. In theory it is possible to siege a tank under a tree on FS and profit from that, but no one in their right mind is going to invest that much effort into it or hinge their build on that. That's novice thinking. Ambushing and waiting in general are possible but become less likely as the skill level of the match climbs, because everyone should have decent map presence/awareness. Doodads are again practically a non-factor. Your signature sums it up for competitive play, basically. Maybe look towards Snipers Bald Locks x0x GosuX 1.356 or something. Yeah I was thinking you could position units under a tree early in the game (either zvt or pvt), wait for their push, and try to ambush them there. But I guess that would only work if the tree is right in the path that they walk on, which it almost never is on most maps. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
For example, I know you can shift click on 3 buildings and the units will kill 3 buildings before doing something else. How many buildings can you shift click before it stops working? You can shift click from a nydus on the minimap, can you also shift queue several attack/patrol commands? or is it just movement. I know you can shift click at least one spell, but 2nd one doesnt seem to work. Still, I see pro zergs consume 3 lings very quickly. for me the shift stops working at 2nd. (Solution : click 2 normal consumes really quicky then do shift??.) etc. If anyone has exact information of functionality of shift key in BW and what it's limits and restrictions are please post full info. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
you can shift-attack without any restriction (afaik), so you can shift-attack move out of a nydus if your unit is moving/attack moving, you can draw a random pattern with shift-patrol, if your unit reaches its 1st patrol destination it will patrol your pattern (good to make 1 ling patrol more than 2 bases at once) if you select workers mining minerals and idle workers, if you shift-click on the mineral to get them mine, the ones who already mine basically ignore your command. this makes it easy to get idle workers to mine by simply box and shift-click on minerals without having to worry about disturbing the ones already mining (if you select gas worker and shift-click on mineral, they will go mine mineral) you should not be able to shift queue any spell, together with consume, pro players just 300apm spam consume on everything in sight (the last time i tested this was like 7 years ago, i could have not tested it good enough back then) oh and you can also shift click a worker somewhere and then shift click enemy mineral patch (when you have vision of it) and the worker will start passing all units(after it reached its first destination), even if you lost vision of the mineral patch in the meantime. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On June 26 2017 22:13 Bakuryu wrote: oh and you can also shift click a worker somewhere and then shift click enemy mineral patch (when you have vision of it) and the worker will start passing all units(after it reached its first destination), even if you lost vision of the mineral patch in the meantime. this one considered cheating right?  | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
here flash does it vs shine in OSL gas walking is cheating | ||
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
On June 26 2017 22:13 Bakuryu wrote: i dont know how many shift clicks you can make probably around 10-12 you can shift-attack without any restriction (afaik), so you can shift-attack move out of a nydus if your unit is moving/attack moving, you can draw a random pattern with shift-patrol, if your unit reaches its 1st patrol destination it will patrol your pattern (good to make 1 ling patrol more than 2 bases at once) if you select workers mining minerals and idle workers, if you shift-click on the mineral to get them mine, the ones who already mine basically ignore your command. this makes it easy to get idle workers to mine by simply box and shift-click on minerals without having to worry about disturbing the ones already mining (if you select gas worker and shift-click on mineral, they will go mine mineral) you should not be able to shift queue any spell, together with consume, pro players just 300apm spam consume on everything in sight (the last time i tested this was like 7 years ago, i could have not tested it good enough back then) oh and you can also shift click a worker somewhere and then shift click enemy mineral patch (when you have vision of it) and the worker will start passing all units(after it reached its first destination), even if you lost vision of the mineral patch in the meantime. thanks for answers! I seem to strongly recall being able to shift consume at least once, but in games, im not sure anymore it just confuses me sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt, could just be im clicking fast and shift really has no relevance, ill have to get in game and test this more. (sc1 really lacks the arcade unit tester from sc2 for stuff like this) | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
3.2 Illegal bugs • Gas Walk, to get through blocked entrances or ramps (an incredibly common Bug, using a shift-click on gas near opponent’s blocked entrance to slide through any Unit) • Shift-Queue to slide through any Unit blocking the ramp (mostly used at beginning with the first scouting) I used to report if it happens^^ I dont use it ofc maybe I just get confused and there is a way to shift queue without vision to get through too | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On June 26 2017 23:03 ProMeTheus112 wrote: haha ok, on ICCup though it seems forbidden I used to report if it happens^^ I dont use it ofc maybe I just get confused and there is a way to shift queue without vision to get through too it most likely the same thing, just that on iccup it is forbidden but it was allowed in kespa | ||
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