EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 294
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shall_burn
252 Posts
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
Regarding what tech P does there isn't really a way to know which one P chose aside from a lucky scout. "Flashs FD" is much more economical than the standard version, as he builds the cc earlier and less marines so he has to rely on his scv scout to see if it is 1 or 2 gate. One benefit of this build is, he can get his scan done in time to defend vs 1 base dts after goon range (thats why he doesn't use the first one unless he knows 100% what P did so far). Usually you would still get an e-bay soon after and based on your scan info, you would build turrets or not. But Flash often delays the ebay in favor of a faster second factory for an early push and relies on his micro to handle a potential reaver drop until turrets are up while he pushes Protoss. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
Otherwise, I guess you need Flashesque control and multi-tasking if you want to not build that ebay. You can use mines against DTs first, then - reaver comes half a minute later, I think - you can use your 2nd set of mines behind your natural mineral-line (or where reaver is expected to be dropped) and bring your units into the main (or vice versa), but start an ebay eventually, of course. Concering the game you mentioned - https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=TlyhfZjlAzc -, I'd say Flash couldn't deduce that it had to be DT, but there were several things that should activate his game sense and tell him it would to be a hidden tech, so you'd expect him to play it safe against DTs first. + Show Spoiler + - First he encounters a zealot-scout, and sees no scouting probe. That's not unheard of, but if Protoss would play standard or FE he'd most likely send out a probe-scout early. No probe incoming could also mean the scouting-probe halted somewhere else to proxy something. - Flash gets to Guemchi's natural, seeing only one goon that is waiting for him to kill the SCV. So, Protoss has no nexus and something to hide, and Flash doesn't see a second goon at his front or coming out of the gateway, fishy... - Flash's scout didn't get all the way into the main, but he didn't see a 3rd pylon warping in, so hidden tech is a possibility. Surely Flash checked the gas-count in the geyser. 1 goon+Citadel+Archives is 350 gas 1 goon+robo+support bay is 350 gas 1 goon + goon-range is 200 gas, so Flash might be asking himself where those additional 100 gas are, he has seen this build sooo many times, he'd know every little difference. Maybe that told him something, like: "There should actually be 2 goons out at least" or "He cannot have proxied two gates somewhere", I'm not sure if you could deduce that. What baffles me is that, if I'm not mistaken, Flash didn't know it was DT (or was not sure at least), and yet he didn't prepare for reaver in time. If you check the game again, he waits and builds his academy too late to have scan up in time against DTs, and he places his mines not optimally against DTs and he lets a zealot soak up two mines. The DT could have gotten into the main, and Flash loses a lot of mining-time. Also, I think he would have built an ebay against DTs, as he starts it immediatelly when he realizes it's DT (as you should). Given what Cryoc wrote about Flash's tweaked FD, the only explanation is that his timings were off, which sounds unbelievable given that it's Flash and a normal DT-timing (as far as I can tell). Maybe Cryoc can have a look at that game, I don't know... | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On January 17 2017 13:54 Ty2 wrote: How does a Terran know if toss is going DT or reaver? I see toss on one base and it can mean 2 gate goon, reaver, some bulldog, or DT, and I don't always react well. If it's 1 base I just get 3 turrets, one at the main mineral line, one in between near the factories, and another near my choke. If I know it's reaver I make a turret ring, but when they 2 gate goon I feel like I waste resources on turrets. Does anyone know how to scout this out? I always feel like toss has 3 goons in the front at my bridge on FS or whatever and a lot of goons hidden and then they come out and then I lose. Also, the ebay is a waste because I want to make a 2nd factory soon in the case of a 2 gate. Also, I saw Flash get a fast academy after going FD as if he knew Guemchi in the recent ASL game was almost certainly going DT. Anyone know how he knew that? It's not about being certain, it's about making optimal choices. Out of all 1 base builds it's only DT that can always kill if you're not prepared, both 2 gate goon and reaver you can hold with units and right micro. In all considerations I assume you didn't get any scout apart from his unit on the ramp: - zealot / 2 probe blocking the ramp -> very fishy -> scout your base surroundings, some areas that he may be hiding tech. Your initial response is to get mines asap as those are in time to defend any DT aggresion, so put them wisely in your natural so they cannot be avoided and consider building your cc highground. - if seems that no DT's are coming your next threat is quick robo (somewhere on the map or from main) -> you need extra marines and tank, mb a mine here and there. You also always want to start EB after you start your expansion, never before. - if he block the ramp with a goon, it may be same as above or some kind of 2 gate -> can be 2 gate into exp or 2 gate with robo obs / bulldog -> both is countered by siege expand with reasonable placement and extra marines if needed. These are examples of reactions, there are many more based on details of map etc. Also it's often possible to wall off to avoid DT dmg fully (or just with repair). With a combination of these: safe mine placement in your natural + siege just after mines (or before mines if you are sure it's 2 gate) + eb after exp you can hold 99% of protoss bullshit. Also, a critical critical timing for scouting his exp is 4:00-4:05 mark (that's when they get 1 gate exp with 2-3 goons). If any nexus before that you are safe, if anything 4:20 or later~ and ramp block it's very fishy and I would add EB after expo (unless see 4 goons, that means that you'll cancel your eb but you still need to order it) and put some defensive mines and start looking for proxy. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
I play that 3rax build a lot vs 3hatch muta, it's super versatile, but you don't have the brute-force of 4rax-marine-production, so you have to make the right calls always (when/if to pre-muta-push; how many turrets exactly are needed; whether you have enough bio to go for Zerg's 3rd and defend at home simultaneously; when to build the factory and start teching). On a good day I like it if I'm evenly matched with my opponent. But losing a few too many marines in the muta-phase hurts a lot and you really miss that early +1... it's harder to grasp map-control in the muta-phase. | ||
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LetaBot
Netherlands557 Posts
(for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/97127-d-adventures-in-bio-tank ) | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
On January 18 2017 07:12 LetaBot wrote: How well would a 1 base BioMech push work vs a 12/14 Nexus? (for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/97127-d-adventures-in-bio-tank ) It would most likely work out terribly. The attack comes way too late to actually punish the protoss' initial greed since you need so many upgrades (stim and range which both use the same building, and siege too). You have no vultures to realistically deny any scouting probes and more importantly no mines to keep the protoss from just running up and killing tanks. Even if the protoss is scared of mines and lets you get to the natural without contest, it's still really not much better than a 2 fact seeing as you have no mines and once reavers are out, half of your army becomes irrelevant. You could still probably kill him if he was too greedy with his teching, but so could a 2 fact and on the off chance you don't manage to kill him, you transition a million times better with a 2 fact. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On January 18 2017 06:22 Highgamer wrote: Another, less elegant way is to scout really tenaciously, sneaking out one or even two additional SCVs to get a glimpse into the opponent's main after he killed the first scout, this works more often than you't think, but you lose mining-time. Otherwise, I guess you need Flashesque control and multi-tasking if you want to not build that ebay. You can use mines against DTs first, then - reaver comes half a minute later, I think - you can use your 2nd set of mines behind your natural mineral-line (or where reaver is expected to be dropped) and bring your units into the main (or vice versa), but start an ebay eventually, of course. Concering the game you mentioned - https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=TlyhfZjlAzc -, I'd say Flash couldn't deduce that it had to be DT, but there were several things that should activate his game sense and tell him it would to be a hidden tech, so you'd expect him to play it safe against DTs first. + Show Spoiler + - First he encounters a zealot-scout, and sees no scouting probe. That's not unheard of, but if Protoss would play standard or FE he'd most likely send out a probe-scout early. No probe incoming could also mean the scouting-probe halted somewhere else to proxy something. - Flash gets to Guemchi's natural, seeing only one goon that is waiting for him to kill the SCV. So, Protoss has no nexus and something to hide, and Flash doesn't see a second goon at his front or coming out of the gateway, fishy... - Flash's scout didn't get all the way into the main, but he didn't see a 3rd pylon warping in, so hidden tech is a possibility. Surely Flash checked the gas-count in the geyser. 1 goon+Citadel+Archives is 350 gas 1 goon+robo+support bay is 350 gas 1 goon + goon-range is 200 gas, so Flash might be asking himself where those additional 100 gas are, he has seen this build sooo many times, he'd know every little difference. Maybe that told him something, like: "There should actually be 2 goons out at least" or "He cannot have proxied two gates somewhere", I'm not sure if you could deduce that. What baffles me is that, if I'm not mistaken, Flash didn't know it was DT (or was not sure at least), and yet he didn't prepare for reaver in time. If you check the game again, he waits and builds his academy too late to have scan up in time against DTs, and he places his mines not optimally against DTs and he lets a zealot soak up two mines. The DT could have gotten into the main, and Flash loses a lot of mining-time. Also, I think he would have built an ebay against DTs, as he starts it immediatelly when he realizes it's DT (as you should). Given what Cryoc wrote about Flash's tweaked FD, the only explanation is that his timings were off, which sounds unbelievable given that it's Flash and a normal DT-timing (as far as I can tell). Maybe Cryoc can have a look at that game, I don't know... I watched the start of the game more closely. The thing is, he scouted the fake range so his build would have been fine if it were indeed DTs after range. Also just because Flash doesn't see a second goon doesn't necessarily mean there isn't one on the map. He scouted him last after cross scouting, so usually a second goon would be finished for while. He came from the least probable way scouting path and maybe thought he tricked guemchi somewhat. I watched Flashs stream quite a bit the days prior to his upcoming TvP match and there were also some matches where Protoss did indeed go reaver (even proxy once, I think that was vs Bisu on Demian) and Flash had only one scan and no turrets up. And he still won all those games in like 10min. Those games were another example for me how high level Flashs play is and why I am a big fan of him. I as noob Terran would think as soon as there is a reaver in your base and you have no antiair you have to stay at home and will probably still end up behind. But Flash instead knows at this moment, Protoss won't be able to defend his 2 Factory push, because there is no reaver to help out and P cannot have many units. So Flash evacuates his scvs constantly and starts building turrets in his base and deals with the reaver only with reinforcements and kills the protoss natural in the meantime. At the end Flash might have some scvs less but still has 2 bases compared to the Protoss 1 base. So all in all I think it is more something along the lines, that Flash doesn't exactly know what is coming at him, but he has very strong responses even to the seemingly worst case scenarios. He gets away with so little defenses it is unbelievable sometimes, I mean he also only gets one comsat when his academy is up to have more scv production time and just doesn't use the scan to be still save vs DTs. | ||
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Highgamer
1470 Posts
On January 18 2017 21:31 Cryoc wrote: Those games were another example for me how high level Flashs play is and why I am a big fan of him. I as noob Terran would think [...]. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nGQ24rd.jpg) | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28804 Posts
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1078 Posts
On January 19 2017 11:56 Dazed_Spy wrote: When to slow push vs fast push in tvp? (Big question I know) Depends on what you mean by slow push. My idea is a really slow push where terran would crawl forward using lots of turrets and supply depots with mine support etc... I do not think we see that a lot these days as it is quite map dependent. Used to be very popular on smaller maps with buildable centres, classically LT/python and maybe destination etc... esp. close spawns. (That shows my age unfortunately...) In generally you would want to do it if you protoss' economy is similar to yours. Maybe in a 2 base vs 2 base situation or that you hae killed some bases after the mid-game push. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4170 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On January 20 2017 12:23 HaFnium wrote: On non cross spawns on FS, would the geography not help a slow push in a similar way as python? (even if a bit worse) I.e is the rush distance too excessive/flanks too viable for a crawling style like that? Depends on what you mean by slow push. My idea is a really slow push where terran would crawl forward using lots of turrets and supply depots with mine support etc... I do not think we see that a lot these days as it is quite map dependent. Used to be very popular on smaller maps with buildable centres, classically LT/python and maybe destination etc... esp. close spawns. (That shows my age unfortunately...) In generally you would want to do it if you protoss' economy is similar to yours. Maybe in a 2 base vs 2 base situation or that you hae killed some bases after the mid-game push. | ||
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oldbozo
4 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28804 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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shall_burn
252 Posts
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